I spent some time searching for answers on the forum seeing if I could find any, and exluding Awakened, Infected, and technomancers/VR

Is there a way to get 3 Initiative passed other than Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster(I believe that is the Bioware version of Wired Reflexes). I know Cram, Kamakazi and Jazz all give +1 Reaction and +1 Pass per 25th Anniversary book. But in my digging through the sources we have at our disposal and the forums I was wondering if there was a more potent drug somewhere since I can not with this character afford the Wired Reflexes apparently (I was expecting more Nuyen after character creation...since I have seen what the other players got >.>.) I would deal with only having two passes, if 3 of the 5 of us did not have 4(Adepts and Mages of Course). The other person finally got their in meat second and they spend half the game session in combat spacing out waiting for the other three to finish.

And would Cram potentially stack with Wired Reflexes(For only the passes) or when it says "Wired reflexes does not stack with any other form of initiative enhancement also mean passes?

K-10 gives +3 Initiative Passes.

Yes, not stacking applies to passes aswell.
Not sure if you can speedball drugs to cram out more passes (see what I did there)
You should take a word from Picador though, stay the hell away from kamikaze, except from severely lessened life expectancy, Berserk is bad! Tearing your friends heads off is bad!

The Impoved Reflexes spell is an option.

~Umi

Double Post.

Hmmm, non-ware based ways of getting extra IP's...taking K-10 or getting a mage to cast Improved Reflexes are the only ways I can think of honestly.
Move-by-wire is an alternative to Wired Reflexes, but if cost is an issue then that wouldn't help out I'm afraid.
Of course, there is the other method of spending Edge to get an extra IP, but that burns through your Edge FAST.

If you have enough edge, you can always get extra passes when you really need them that way.

What's your archetype?

Technomancers can get echoes to improve their IP, but it takes a long time to get them.

Mages have a spell that can help.

Adepts have adept powers.

Street Sams got wired reflexes.

Hackers and Riggers have Hot Sim (and a few other goodies to get more).

But yeah, everyone else, they got to use drugs to get that edge in combat.

I'd also argue that the various Infected with 2 natural passes can still benefit from various drugs to bring them up to 3, although you couldn't stack the drugs further to hit 4.

~Umi

More importantly, what kind of game is it?
Are you worried that you'll just be sitting around because combat is such a major part or are you just worried you'll be twirling your thumbs when combat do occur?
If it's the latter, don't worry about it, invest into some edge so that you can have multiple passes in a make or break situation, then just focus on making the character you want to.
Rigger seem to be a match made in heaven, drones come with 3 IP and can do their own thing when your out of juice.

One of my characters was built around the Chemistry skill. She had a signature slap patch which speedballed K-10 and Dopadrine (to counteract possible Berserk). It was affectionately referred to as Kates (K-8's). That's a relatively safe way to run up 3 initiative passes without risking Berserk, and you still get an overall bonus to Physical stats (1 less than pure K-10). You're still liable to be addicted, though.

Forget addicted. You're liable to DIE.

Remember, when you crash from K-10 you take 18S, unresisted. Unless you're a troll or orc with absurd body, taking just a couple solid hits in combat can doom you to dying outright when the drug wears off, blowing straight through your overflow boxes.

~Umi

Right. That's why she never used it herself. Gangers can make for some good customers on dangerous chems

If the mage is willing to do it (would help if they had the foci to do it), they could always use the Increase Reflexes spell on other people, too... Of course, given the time that would take, it would either mean multicasting or only being suited as a preparatory measure. And given the spell design rules, there's no reason you couldn't design an area version of Increased Reflexes - you're looking at a (F/2)+6 Drain code without some kind of restriction, though.

How about "No eating within 24 hours or else you vomit and lose bowel control?" Wait, wrong restriction...

What about having a built in rating 6 medkit in your armor for just such an emergency?

Or say for when your crazy ork street sam walks up to a cabin in the woods without searching first for the mercs in light military armor and HVAR's loaded with Ex-EX ammo and gets his crazy vindicitive ass shot all to hell?

Can a something like a trauma patch dose be put into an auto-injector?

Knocked out but not dead might due as long as not everyone in the party has done that. Heck, K-10 lasts nearly long enough for them to shot the hell out of the opposition, then run and jump into a valkyrie unit in the rigger's bus.

Just a thought or two. I need to make sure my ablative ork & troll chummers keep the bad guys distracted and not shooting at me.

Definitely something to only use on Orks and Trolls. The problem is that your overflow is equal to your Body, so if that's too low even just taking a couple shots of stun damage before the crash can kill you flat out.

A Body of 6 gives 11 Physical Boxes and 6 Overflow boxes. That means you can only survive if you take less than (Stun Track - 2) damage of any kind. With an average Willpower, that means you can suffer 8 damage and still have a chance at survival. Get shot twice and soak poorly, you're toast.

~Umi

Troll... bod9, Toss on 4 half-cyberlimbs... +4 physical.
Willpower 5 for 11 stun boxes...

17 physical boxes with 9 overflow.

Pain editor to stay conscious.... and platelets for the 1 free damage reduction on the unresisted damage.

Orc with 7 bod is only a step behind...

I wouldn't allow the Platelet Factory to modify the crash damage. That seems to go completely against the spirit of unresisted damage.

~Umi

Actually no it doesn't go against the flavor... because platelets aren't part of resisting damage... they simply change how you check off damage boxes after you've resisted damage.... 3 or more reduce the number checked off by one (or if you use the more restrictive wording... 3 or more physical boxes since this is stun overflow).

As does the trauma damper (but its incompatibility with the pain editor leads to an unconsciousness problem with a full stun track).

Aaaaand then there is the question: WHY unresisted damage? Doesn't seem in line with all the other rules. This and the Adrenal Gland bioware should do a damage-code, but allow for resisting. Some bodies can take damage others can't. This is not only represented with having more damage boxes, in my opinion.

So i would say change that to 20S resisted damage or something.

ah well. Also: you can get a IP with usage of edge too. If you are one of the "high-edge" characters i guess you could plan and use that regularly.

2 IP are ok for combat though. The dudes with 4 are the annoying ones, hogging all the actions.

Summer:
There's always the positive quality which for 10BP you can be immune to the effects of a chemical.

Talk to the GM... some take that to mean you get the good stuff which comes with a drug without all the nasty side effects. It is a pretty pricey quality once you start tossing in regular drug costs on top. (and keeping yourself supplied with them). Remember street quality can vary widely... and you never know what some street vendor is cutting in his drug. Maybe that jazz popper is really another combat drug...

But that's the basis of some of the 'juicer' concepts.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16635
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31073

That's not how drug resistance actually works...

That's not even how side effects work.

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

~Umi

I agree with that's not how they're supposed to work... but I have seen some people RP 'juicers' as drugged out whackjobs in character... and the GM allow it to work like that.

It's not your 'typical' street sam... more like a up-jumped ganger.


Why I said I've seen 'some people' do it that way... not that is supposed to be done that way.

Justed wanted to toss together a quick troll ganger to see how this'd work using 400BP for Missions. There might be different Qualities that'd be better. I didn't give a lot of thought beyond what fit thematically or was required for a peice of restricted gear.


== Info ==
Street Name: Juicer
Name: David Harlan
Movement: 15/35
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 1
Public Awareness: 0
Troll male Age 28
Height 2.7 m Weight 350kg
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 4
Lift/Carry: 19 (150 kg/100 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 9
AGI: 4 (6)
REA: 4
STR: 8 (10)
CHA: 2
INT: 2
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 3

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 3.95
Initiative: 6
IP: 1
Matrix Initiative: 6
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 13
Stun Damage Track: 11

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 0 Pool: 1
Animal Training : 0 Pool: 1
Archery : 0 Pool: 5
Armorer : 0 Pool: 1
Artisan : 0 Pool: 1
Automatics : 4 Pool: 10
Blades : 5 [Swords] Pool: 11 (13)
Climbing : 1 Pool: 11
Clubs : 0 Pool: 5
Computer : 0 Pool: 1
Con : 0 Pool: 1
Cybercombat : 0 Pool: 1
Data Search : 0 Pool: 1
Demolitions : 0 Pool: 1
Disguise : 0 Pool: 1
Diving : 0 Pool: 8
Dodge : 2 Pool: 6
Escape Artist : 0 Pool: 5
Etiquette : 0 Pool: 1
First Aid : 0 Pool: 1
Flight : 1 Pool: 11
Forgery : 0 Pool: 5
Gunnery : 0 Pool: 5
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 7
Hacking : 0 Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons : 2 Pool: 8
Infiltration : 1 Pool: 7
Instruction : 0 Pool: 1
Intimidation : 0 Pool: 1
Leadership : 0 Pool: 1
Locksmith : 0 Pool: 5
Longarms : 4 Pool: 10
Navigation : 0 Pool: 1
Negotiation : 0 Pool: 1
Palming : 0 Pool: 5
Parachuting : 0 Pool: 8
Perception : 2 Pool: 4
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 [Truck] Pool: 5 (7)
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 3
Pistols : 4 Pool: 10
Riding : 0 Pool: 3
Running : 1 Pool: 11
Shadowing : 0 Pool: 1
Survival : 0 Pool: 4
Swimming : 1 Pool: 11
Throwing Weapons : 0 Pool: 5
Tracking : 0 Pool: 1
Unarmed Combat : 2 Pool: 8

== Knowledge Skills ==
Area Knowledge: Seattle : 2 Pool: 4
Bars and Clubs : 2 Pool: 4
Combat Tactics : 2 Pool: 4
English : N Pool: 0
Firearms : 2 Pool: 4
Military : 2 Pool: 4
Trog Heavy Metal Bands : 2 Pool: 4

== Contacts ==
Fixer (4, 2)

== Qualities ==
Addiction (Moderate) (Jazz)
Black Market Pipeline (Combat Drugs)
Poor Self Control (Combat Monster)
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Prejudiced (Specific, Biased) (Elves from any Tir.)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)

== Lifestyles ==
Low 2 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Audio Enhancement Rating 3
Auto-Injector (Reusable) Rating 6
Cyberears Rating 2
+Ear Recording Unit
+Sound Link
+Damper
+Balance Augmenter
+Select Sound Filter Rating 3
Cybereyes Basic System Rating 4
+Eye Recording Unit
+Image Link
+Flare Compensation
+Low-Light Vision
+Smartlink
+Thermographic Vision
+Vision Enhancement Rating 2
+Vision Magnification
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 2
Orthoskin Rating 1
Pain Editor
Platelet Factories

== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
Lined Coat 6/4
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble with Helmet)2/6

== Weapons ==
AK-98 ("Kaylie")
+Gas-Vent 3 System
+Shock Pad
+Smartgun System, External
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Foregrip
+Heavy Barrel
+Metahuman Customization
+Personalized Grip
Pool: 12 DV: 6P AP: -1 RC: 7
AK-98 Grenade Launcher
Pool: 10 DV: Grenade AP: - RC: 0
Ares Predator IV ("Gloria")
+Silencer
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Metahuman Customization
+Smartgun System
Pool: 12 DV: 5P AP: -1 RC: 0
Grenade: Flash-Bang
Pool: 10 DV: 6S (10m Radius) AP: -3 RC: 0
Grenade: Fragmentation
Pool: 10 DV: 12P(f) (-1/m) AP: +5 RC: 0
Ingram Smartgun X ("Samantha")
+Foregrip
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Stock
+Gas Vent 2
+Metahuman Customization
+Personalized Grip
+Smartgun System
+Sound Suppressor
Pool: 12 DV: 5P AP: - RC: 5
Minigrenade: Thermal Smoke
Pool: 10 DV: (10m Radius) AP: - RC: 0
Mossberg AM-CMDT ("Calamity Jane")
+Shock Pad
+Smartgun System, External
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Spare Clips
+Foregrip
+Metahuman Customization
+Personalized Grip
+Sling
Pool: 12 DV: 9P(f) AP: +5 RC: 4
Shock Glove
Pool: 8 DV: 5S(e) AP: -half RC: 0
Survival Knife
Pool: 11 DV: 6P AP: -1 RC: 0
Vibro Sword ("Mr. Pokey")
+Metahuman Customization
+Personalized Grip, Melee
Pool: 12 (14) DV: 9P AP: -2 RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Fairlight Caliban (4, 4, 3, 5)
+Novatech Navi
+Suite: Pro User [Analyze 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4, Encrypt 4]
+Stealth Rating 3
+Encrypt Rating 4

== Gear ==
Ammo: Explosive Rounds (Assault Rifles) x80
Ammo: Flechette Rounds (Shotguns) x30
Ammo: Gel Rounds (Heavy Pistols) x30
Ammo: Gel Rounds (Submachine Guns) x80
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Heavy Pistols) x30
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Shotguns) x30
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Assault Rifles) x160
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Submachine Guns) x80
Ammo: Shock Lock Rounds (Shotguns)
Biomonitor
Fake SIN (CAS Security Guard) Rating 4
+Fake License (Concealed Weapons) Rating 4
+Fake License (Restricted Ammunitions) Rating 4
+Certified Credstick, Standard Rating 200
Fake SIN (UCAS Wage Slave) Rating 1 x2
Grenade: Flash-Bang x5
Grenade: Fragmentation x3
Jazz x10
Kamikaze x10
Medkit Rating 6
Minigrenade: Thermal Smoke x6
Nitro x10
Plastic Restraints x20
Survival Kit

== Vehicles ==
GAZ P-179 (Pickup Truck)
+Metahuman Adjustment, Troll
+Multifuel Engine
+Vehicle Sensor

== Concept ==
Ganger with lots of drug addictions. Designed to stay alive after taking a dose of K-10.

Well, you may survive the hit...
But your team won't, berserk is a funny thing... Even more so when you combine it with hulk smashy qualities.

Dopadrine, if you already plan on surviving this drug. It lessens the possibility that a lot of people will desperately try to stop you because you went into a rampage onto the neighborhood...

At the risk of turning this into a giant unproductive rules argument, why doesn't speedballing work? All the drugs should effect you normally, and unlike cyber, bio, and magic, there's nothing about drugs that say they don't stack with each other. Unless the OP is worried about addiction, but personally, I like my character being an addict. Fits with the living on the edge, wouldn't fit as a corporate cog, image.

Jazz and Kamikaze are a good combo, just watch out for the stun damage at the end. You could also talk to your GM about possibly using a gene infusion to give you a transgenic alteration effect to get the equivalent of synaptic booster 2, but as a GM I probably wouldn't allow it. There's also the big risk factor that way of permanent stun and death, especially if you have low essence and edge (definitely wouldn't try it with a combined total less than 7).

Sure, but he doesn't have any dopadrine

Ah. Right. Shouldn't have assumed common sense in a Juicer Troll
Speedballing should work (just not speedballing the same drug three times, before anyone tries). If you want to mix Jazz, Cram and/or Kamikaze, you can get two or three extra IPs easily. You also suffer all negative effects, which is quite bad.

Which is why a Juicer tends to have a very short lifespan indeed...

I figure I didn't want to waste BP's on restricted gear on a few doses of K-10, and without the K-10 straight off, I could hold off on the dopadrine until I got doses of K-10. If my fixer is also my dealer, then eventually, I get dopadrine and K-10, and load the dopadrine into the cyber-auto injector for when berserk happens. Plus, then the K-10 becomes an in game goal to obtain.

Would I need a second auto injector for the K-10, or could I put in speed balled doses of K-10 and Dopadrine into a shot from the auto injector?

Better living through chemistry indeed.

E

... didn't I already talk about this combo earlier? Only with little care and less intent for self-usage.

Merely mixing alcohol and pain relievers can mess you up - two or more combat drugs would, in my opinion, have more chance to give you a seizure than to turn you into a fighting machine. Although the only RAW penalty is a miniscule penalty to your addiction tests.

Wasn't the point of the dopadrine to counteract the berserk? If I'm not mistaken Kamikaze causes that too.

The Kamikaze in my copy of the 4A book doesn't mention berserk in its effect line. Is there erratta for the 4A core book?

Eric

I probably remembered wrong then.