Hi Guys.
My Char D.E.M. is a Gnome technowizrd (self invented Possesion based Tradition)
and he's got Plant Spirits for Healing aspect.
If He learns to summon Big (mighty ?) Spirits and summons a Level 6 Spirit in his Milspec (which is a prepared Vessel)
with Armor Value 19/17 Jumping Jacks Lvl 5 and enhanced Mobility Lvl 3.

what Values (Armor Jumping, etc) does this Possesed Armor have ?

with a possesed Dance
Medicieneman

You mean Great-Form Spirits i think.
And if i remember correctly, the Spirits Force gets added to all values of the Armor.
Not sure though. Might be just more points in both Impact and Ballistics.
And if you are summoning Great Form Plant Spirits, one of the most usefull parts gets completely ignored.
Their Regeneration Power only works if they possess living beings i think.

it is Great-form Spirits IIRC:)

We're discussing right now wether regeneration works in/for the Mil-Spec or not

with a Great-Form Dance
Medicineman

As in "a chemical seal gets repaired after armor was penetrated" or as in "the being inside the armor gets regeneration"?

The Armor is possesed so "a chemical seal gets repaired after armor was penetrated" Regeneration/selfrepair for the Armor

Hough!
Medicineman

That should work. Great Spirit at force 6? You are a brave man.

More likely a foolish man, summoning things bigger than his considerable head . .
Also, i am not sure this works, as regeneration is something that only "living" "things" - i am looking at you here HMHVVV! - seem to be able to get.
But i don't think this particular question has come up before either . . i believe i am remembering something along the lines of spirits - inhabitation, not possession, mind you - being able to repair an ammount of boyes on the condition monitor of their prepared vessel as high as their force in a given ammount of time, but don't ask me where i am pulling this from . .
Actually, this raisins another question to/for the dancer . .
Possession Spirit?
NOT Inhabitation?
CAN a Possession Spirit possess an object at all or is that limited to Inhabitation Spirits and Possession Spirits can only possess living beings?

Possession Spirits can possess non-living vessels. The Wicker Man and Plasteel Homonculous are examples from Street Magic.

Then what's inhabitation good for, if possession can do it too? O.o

Possession spirits can indeed possess an object.

Inhabitation is especially great for living vessels, as some merges of vessel and spirit give the spirit access to cyberware and such, the Flesh Form even grants the vessel's skills.

I think it could work, both Possession and Regeneration.
For additional armor points, I'd say the armor will get a lot beefier (is that even a word?).

That would probably mean that the spirit's force will add to the armor value, because if that's the case for vehicles, then why not a bulletproof vest?

I cannot find anything regarding whether or not immunity to normal weapons is cumulative to that, I've searched SR4A, the glossary at the end of "Running Wild" and "Digital Grimoire", all I can find is

hmm . . i am still not good with the magic crap it seems x.x
but that last one: magically enhanced armor adds encumbrance? O.o

It seems so, yes.
With a high enough body attribute and enhanced mobility things might still work out, though.
And, well, since the armor is already somewhat able to move on it's own accord (enhanced mobility), could that possession spirit move it's vessel by itself? It's not too different from a golem, is it? So I'd think it could.

It probably can, yes.
Which throws up another question in my mind:
How does the spirit know not to, for example, move the armors leg to fuld up to the back of the wearer while he is still inside? o.O

Re: the carryover of ItNW to a possessed object, besides the comment from Digital Grimoire that Modular Man brought up, Ghost Cartels speaks to this a little bit (spoilering just in case, and emphasis mine):



That combined with Modular Man's quote strongly suggests (to me) that a) spirits may apply their powers to their vessels during possession, and b) ItNW and Regeneration are two powers that can be applied in that fashion. At the very least, Ghost Cartels supports the general claim and doesn't contradict ItNW as a specific case, but I'd consider that enough to rule that a possessed suit of armour would gain the spirit's Force to its armour value, be able to regenerate damage to itself and get the benefit of ItNW. (I'd also be hauling out mages with high-Force Wreck Armour or Powerbolt to deal with that, but I digress.) Anyone else have evidence either way?

Re: magically enhanced armour adding encumbrance, I could technically see that being applied through using the increased protection rating rather than the base rating to calculate armour encumbrance. By the RAW (p. 164, SR4A), adding an extra +6/+6 protection to armour (say, by it being possessed by a Force 6 spirit) should give an extra -3 modifier to Agility and Reaction rolls, assuming the new protection rating exceeds the wearer's Body x2. On the other hand, that requires you to buy into the idea that possessed armour is heavier than non-possessed armour for some reason, which just seems silly. (How much does a spirit weigh, anyway?)

Edit: I was going to justify ignoring the increased encumbrance by saying "the Armor spell doesn't increase encumbrance either", but after checking the rules, it doesn't actually say whether it does or not. I guess this is one of those cases of having to choose between game mechanics and physics...

The Immunity to Normal Weapons would only appy to the Armor . .
Now we get to the part where i ask:
if i shoot somebody weraing that armor and i am not trying to damage the armor but him and the immunity to normal weapons only applys to the armor itself and not the wearer . .
what happens then?
because technically it's not him being protected by that bit. but his armor. but you are not shooting through a barrier to get to him . .

as for how much spirits weight:as much as love and hate.
or if you want: earth spirits/elementals = Force Kilo, water Force Liters, so basically also Force Kilo in most cases, air = force liters so about as much as 1l of air weights . . practically nothing . . same for fire, because fire is just burning air after all . .

I'm having a hard time thinking of ways that ItNW would apply to the armour-as-an-object but not to the wearer. It seems like the easiest answer would be to say that ItNW would apply if someone tries to destroy the armour when it's not actively being worn. If I were house-ruling it I'd say that the armour would effectively be a "barrier" (even though it's an object) and ItNW would apply that damage resistance test. The other thing that came to mind was reducing or ignoring degradation if you're using the armour degradation rules from Arsenal (p. 44).

Outside those situations, I'm not really sure what to say; those are the only two applications I can think of that actually make sense - if you houseruled it as "you get the benefits of ItNW while wearing the armour" you'd have to explain why it worked if someone made a called shot to avoid armour. Personally, I'd say it doesn't apply except in the cases I mentioned above, but YMMV.

This is just one of the cases where the rules break down, because they were never intended to work with magitech at all.
Magic breaks Tech. But Tech also breaks Magic.

I don't think it's quite as bad as you make it out to be. I absolutely agree that it's a judgement call, and that it probably wasn't made this way intentionally, but every system has its little quirks that people will try to exploit to their advantage (if they're the kind of person that does that).

I was going to say "there's no reason that possession is inherently broken as a system", but I've seen a few people suggest exactly that. Since I'm not that experienced with possession mechanics (as in I haven't seen them at the game table, just read them), why is that?

tech doesn't break Magic.
thats an old SR2 concept.
There's a lot of Interaction between Magic & Machine (Object resistance f.E. shows very well that Magic can interact wit Technology.)
The Matrix is something differently ; Matrix and Magic doesn't mix but Tech can mingle very well with Magic
(and thats exactly what my Tradition Technowizardry is for. To enhance & improve Machinery/Technology with Magic. )


Its a Gnomes Head ,so its rather small.
And when my Char gets his second Initiation he'll have 10 Dice to summon a Plant Spirit vs 6 Dice for the Spirit to resist
(and 13 Dice for Soaking) so thats not the Problem

with an enhancing Dance
Medicineman

SR4 pg. 296, Materialization. This yields IntW. Possession (Street Magic, German pg. 110, sorry) doesn´t.

Street Magic (English copy), page 102, the black box on Possession and Vessels does state that Immunity To Normal Weapons is gained by the vessel, among other things.

Good find, and quite explicit.

Thanks, SpellBinder. That's what I get for skipping the introduction of that sidebar and going straight to the "Dead or Inanimate Vessels" section.

Good call, but how High is the ItnW ?
19(Armor Value) + 6(Spirit Level ) 25 ?
or 19 + 12(Twice Spirit Level) = 31
or 12 (Twice Spirit Level) & 19 Normal Armar Value ?
What about the JumpJets or the Mobility Upgrade ?
can You add the Spirits Level to these values ?
(Remember the MilSpec is a prepared Vessel)

with a combined Dance
Medicineman

The Hardened aspect of the protection, at least, would be at Force*2 as normal. The only vague spot is whether it stacks with armour more generally; I'd assume it would in the absence of any direct indication that it does not.

The vessel gains Immunity to Normal Weapons, but if that vessel is armor, the immunity applies to the armor, not anyone wearing it. So the armor itself would be immune to any damage below a DV of 12, the personwearing it would gain no such immunity, just the benefit of armor with an increased ballistic and impact armor value.

My take on it is that ItnW would stack with worn armor and such (at the usual Force x2 that a Materialized spirit would have), and probably even with possessed body armor, but would still be the benchmark if the damage can be ignored or not. So basically the armor would be at 31 (assuming a Force 6 spirit here), but if more than 12 points is done then the attack will get through.

As a possessed gun can shoot or eject its own clip but not move on its own, and a possessed car can drive itself but not access things like GridGuide/Link, I'd say that the Mobility Upgrade and Hydraulic Jacks would function as normal as they're effectively passive with the use of the suit of armor, but would not be upgraded by the spirit's Force (does a possessed commlink gain the spirit's force to Signal? As far as I know, no, it does not). Whether or not the spirit can actually move the armor itself would be more up to GM's discretion, though, per SM on pages 102-103 in that same little black box (personally I probably would say yes to this one).

And if I'm wrong on trying to figure what the Jump Jets are on this, and they require an active control (thinking like Battletech here), then no, the spirit would not be able to use the jets at all.

Look at the point of immunity to normal weapons from this perspective:
A spirit possesses a car. Now someboby tries to shoot the driver through the front screen. Does the immunity apply or not?
I'd say yes, and logically that would mean that a full set of armor might benefit as well.
Of course, this can get somewhat "broken" pretty fast, but you will have to be able to wear this heavy armor to begin with... not to mention all those hassles a dual being encounters (e.g. your armor can now get manabolted to pieces from the astral plane).

This is pretty much the reason for my comment about "choosing between game mechanics and physics" upthread. RAW is fairly specific that the ItNW applies to the vessel, i.e. the armour (or car) rather than its wearer (or driver), but how does it work if you're completely encased in a possession vessel? I don't think it was intended to work that way - that is, I don't think a player should get the benefit of ItNW by hiding inside a possessed suit of armour all the time - but I don't really have a way to justify it from a physics sense. The only reason I could see not to allow it is "GM says so because game balance", which is pretty well the definition of house rules.

A F6 great form Spirit has 12 dice to resist binding and causes 3 points of drain per hit -> average DV of 12. You cannot summon great form spirits, only transform normal ones during binding. (SM, p.57)

my gnome got the Mil-Spec right from the Start and never ever used it (He's been played for > 50 Karma).
Now we might have to infiltrate a Mercenery Camp ( I'm talking Tanks,Chopper,Hummvees, Heavy Military Drones,Sentry Guns,Patrol Boats, Spirits of Level 6+ ) I guess I'll be needing it for the first Time ever and I saved 18 Karma. Enough for 2nd Initiation



Awww , Fuck
thats Bad News.....
ok, might go for Level 4 Plant Spirit


with a self preserving Dance
Medicineman

I guess the main problem there is that people automatically assume that ItNW indeed means that bullets and the like simply cannot penetrate the object in question (and thus ricochet off them as they would from a massive steel plate). But since we're talking a magical property, that actually doesn't have to be the case ...



... so there might be no reason to make a justification based on physics, but one that is magical in nature?!

The Immunity to normal Weapons in Spirits probably simply stems from the fact that, in essence, there is only an idea of life there, not an actually living being with squishy parts inside that can be hurt.
One COULD argue that possessing stuff actually makes Spirits weaker, because when the vessel gets destroyed with the spirit inside, the spirit gets disrupted or something like that i think.

Hardened Armor on the other hand really IS simply that much harder to penetrate, which is why that gets to ignore Damage like it does.
And Immunity to normal Weapons works differently but gets the same bonus . .

Furthermore, @Dancer:
HAA HAA! told you so! ^^
Big head, Big Talk, Big Problems

Guess you'll want a few points of Edge to spend, Centering, and either a Power or a Plant Binding focus before hand. Use a point of Edge to reroll your Binding test, and another to reroll your Drain resistance test, and you should be fine.

But it sounds like time's a factor, and might not be possible.

I'm not making the assumption that armour with ItNW can't be penetrated. The entire point of the ItNW question is to figure out how difficult it is to penetrate, not whether it can be done.



I don't mean a justification based on physics in the sense of there being a physics-based explanation for ItNW. It's magic, done, no problem.

What I mean is this: According to RAW, if a spirit possesses a suit of armour, the armour gains ItNW - not the wearer. If you were to remove the armour from the picture somehow (like making a called shot to avoid it), ItNW wouldn't apply. The thing is, that's not an option with milspec armour; Arsenal specifically states that it's full-coverage (even to the point of having a chemical seal), so you can't just shoot "around" it and make ItNW a non-issue. That means that even though RAW says the armour has ItNW, the character wearing it effectively does too, because it's impossible to separate them short of the character's armour being removed. As a GM, I'd be perfectly fine with saying ItNW only applies to the armour, but because it is full-coverage armour, it creates a situation where I'd then have to explain why it doesn't apply to the character. I guess I could say it's by GM fiat and that's that, I just think "because reasons" is kind of lame.

Unless the player takes off the helmet for some reason.

Direct Combat Spells would seem an appropriate counter-measure, unless the armor has a mirrored/tinted/polarized/glare compensation visor.

Aside from a spirit's Counterspelling skill if it also has the Magical Guard power (an automatic power for plant spirits).

Better question, more to the point even:

Does ItNW block kinetic energy transmission? Is it a self-regenerating ablative armor (i.e. a force field)? Is it an elementally reactive effect, such as air or water flowing around the projectile? Depending on how exactly the ItNW functions, each spirit can have vastly different ways of producing the same effect, or it could be the functioning of their "ectoplasm" for want of a better word.

For the vehicle example, if you tried to snipe somebody through the windshield, they'd naturally be protected by the vehicle's ItNW as per the rules; you have to penetrate the vehicle first to get to them. Now, if you were sniping them through an OPEN SIDE WINDOW on the other hand, the RAW says they're still protected, but I and a few others I know would allow called-shots to hit the driver. In a fully sealed spirit-possessed armor? My personal disposition would be to say that they gain the extra armor, but not the ItNW, since they can still be affected by kinetic energy. The boost in armor would definitely prove an impressive boost on its own, and the armor itself would be difficult to break.

Personally I'd apply one over the other in layers. If you can bypass the itnw via high hits/dmg, then you compare against body+armour+rating (same dice as vs itnw, not reduced). It basically will keep him safe from all sorts of weapons right up to HMG/assault cannon. Or snipers.

Still pretty scary, but you don't end up making tests vs 30ish points of armour.

And I still have the feeling that the basis of your question still is a "physical" one and not a "magical" one. To me the entire question on ItNW is not about "how hard" / "how difficult" it is "to penetrate" an object that is under its influence but rather "how hard is it to actually damage the object".



And this is exactly the point where I say that you're still looking for an explanation based on physics rather than a magical one. I guess that we can agree that in order to physically hurt someone inside MilSpec (without ItNW) an attack must temporarily deform or even penetrate the armor. Whenever that occurs the armor is simultaniously locally damaged (but not totally destroyed). The important part being, that under this normal physical influence both penetration and damage towards the armor are directly related (or "physically linked"). Now the question is, what happens once ItNW enters the scene!? Will it magically alter the object's "reactions" to both deformation/penetration and damage ... or is it (magically) just damage ? In the latter case the armor could be deformed/penetrated with the same ease (or difficulty) as without the magical property, but the material simply wouldn't take as much damage to itself in the process.



And what about my explainantion above? In that case the character won't get ItNW and it's not "because (unnamed) reasons"

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but you're absolutely right. Thank you for clearing that up.

You have that right, but don´t feel sorry. A force 4 greater Earth spirit is what I used to take down several square km of prime downtown property. You´ll still get self-repairing armor (+4/+4).

Channeling is a must. Strap inside a possessed upgraded Evo Ripley (Greater Force 4 Plant Spirit), get possessed yourself (ideally summoned or bound force 6 guardian spirit).

IMHO, ItNW would only prevent damage to the armor itself and not help the character at all.

Also, any increases in Armor Rating by enhancing the physical aspects of the armor by the spirit's Force would result in appropriate encumbrance penalties (fluffwise, because the armor is mechanically controlled by the spirit).

Furthermore, the armor would only be able to move if the spirit is commanded appropriately, resulting in the need to spend a Simple Action (Command Spirit) to move.

And, of course, any opposing mage would simply Powerbolt 10 the thing, thereby destroying the armor, since it sustains the same physical damage as the spirit after seperation.




You might not realize, that a F4 spirit will have some trouble to actually get the possession done (and can only try so once every 12h).

What's the Object Resistance of MilSpec? 3 at least, maybe even 5. 8 dice won't do that on average.

Of course, you can get a +6 dice pool modifier by preparing the vessel, which requires Enchanting and (at the GM's discretion) multiple tests and possibly technical skill in dis-/reassembling the armor.



Bye
Thanee

As Medicineman has already posted, the armor in question is.As for the OR, I think MilSpec armor falls under the "Highly Processed Objects" category, which my copy of SR4a says is a threshold of 6.

You should go back and download the most recent copy of the PDF, or purchase an updated book. Highly Processed Objects are OR 5+ in the updated printings (Including The Precious). Overprocessing can add up to an additional +2 OR.

Aha, missed that part. Thanks!



Yeah, as above... it is definitely 5+.

I am a bit torn between 3 and 5, but leaning towards 5 also.

Bye
Thanee

I could see arguments for OR 3 for personal Milspec Armor (it is High Tech, no doubt, but is it also Highly Processed... I would think not). After all, it is not AAA Battleship Armor or Cobalt Armor.

It might depend on how tricked out it is (high-end electronics, mobility upgrade, strength upgrade, stuff like that).

Bye
Thanee

Ah, right. Reminded again of the reasons why I dislike that copy. Will have to try to remember that those threshold differences.

There's a neat little loophole to this. If you enchant it as a Rating 1 focus, it no longer uses Object Resistance, and instead uses its magic rating (in this case 1) to resist. Personally, I find a 1/3 chance of -1 to my rolls preferable to a net -5 successes to every test I make. Extrapolating from the spellcasting rules gives that an active focus resists with its force rating, nothing said of inactive foci, and unattented+non-magical objects get OR.