How exactly does this work? I was reading the 10 gangs book and they had the bikers who stay closed off at all times (whitefish?) with control rigs and rigger modded motorcycles. Wouldnt the movement-cutoff cause a person to fall off the bike, even with a gyro stabilization? Or are motorcycle riggers just that badass and full of handwavium? Because all I can think of are go gangers flopping along on the back of their bikes as they race down the highway.

Maybe they strap themselves to their bikes, so they can't fall off. Though this solution would mean their body could still shift a bit, and throw the bike off balance, meaning they'd need a pretty decent gyro to stay upright.

Or perhaps they coat the bikes in hook velcro strips and wear clothes made of loop velcro material, so they stick to it. Then they'd just have to evenly distribute their weight before jumping into the bikes.

Of course, the best solution would be a custom made rigger cocoon bike. No seat, no handlebars, no manual brakes. Just get in, pass out, and burn rubber.

Thing is, missing from their gear is a Sim Module and Motorcycle Gyro to make this possible. A Control Rig is useless outside of VR.

I just chalk it down to rule of cool. Dead Air had rigged-in Combat Bikers, so some folks have just run with it. Sometimes the comatose rigger is a genre trope that can be quite striking (leaning back peacefully while their metal shell wreaks violence for them), other times folks just like the idea of someone being a super awesome cybernetic driver while still being physically upright and stuff.

Handwavium for everyone! Run with the genre trope you like, and call it a day.

I envision something like ski boots and a lap belt to the gas tank.

Gecko Tape Body Suit?

Headless Murdercycle rigged from afar without a stripped Body. just the Spirit inside the Machine

With a Dance inside
Medicineman

Well, moving in the real world gets, as far as I know, a dicepool modificator of -6, but is not entirely impossible.

Maybe Move-by-Wire so you can set your muscles to cling onto that bike? Somehow strapping yourself to it also seems viable and fairly useful.

did he say . . clingon?
but yes, technically a rigger would have to be in the sidecar of the bike <.<

Actually, a really cool idea would be to disable the part of the sim module that keeps your body from moving while in VR and set up your motions to control the bike to coincide with the real-world counterparts.

That way a biker would get the full benefits of controlling the bike through VR while still being able to hold on to the bike and do things like leaning into the turn...

It always astonishes me how literal people take RAS override in terms of shutting down physcial movement ... and 4th edition with its changes surely didn't make it easier. Ever wondered how deckers of previous editions were able to type on their decks?

RAS override was always intended to shut down unwanted physical movement and it doesn't totally preclude physical actions, so it's not too far a stretch to assume that rigging a bike involves a specialized form just for that purpose: Block unwanted movements, but allow those needed.

In 2nd and 3rd ed the rigger adaption for bikes was more expensive than the one for cars, so that explaination in combination with RAS override being part of the then necessary vehicle control rig implant surely worked better when trying to explain how bikes are rigged ... and not automatically requiring a gyro (something only necessary if the bike also has to serve as drone). Streamling there surely didn't help ..

So, they use a seatbelt or harness. Or even just gecko tape.

There are some bikes with a "recumbant" driver position, as well.

Or, they might just be "rigging" the bikes without going into full VR. AR command-chair works just fine, after all - and would free up an action for physical stuff, like .... shooting a gun, swinging a melee weapon, throwing a grenade, chugging a beer. You know, all the "gang" parts of being a go-ganger.

That keyboard was only for use outside of VR.

Actually: No, it wasn't ...

Yeah, I've read some of the novels, they very explicitly mention that the deckers are actually sitting with their decks typing while jumped in VR. It's kind of interesting in the sense that part of the VR experience is changing the thought process of typing out code on the physical deck with your meat body into the virtual icon performing an action. In the fiction it described the character as visualizing the action in the matrix as what she was doing but out in the real world her meat body was clacking away at her cyberdeck, it was kind of weird to think about.

Thought: What if they aren't rigging the bikes at all, but have kitted themselves out as bio-drones, and are rigging themselves?

It's something I've thought about - there is potential trouble in that allowing a stirrup system makes 5 meat IPs possible. Well, I mean, it's still just 5 VR IPs, but they're using them for meat actions, so they're 5 pseudo-meat IPs.

But if it were done, what skill do they use to pilot themselves, piloting the bike?

Would you need a driving action for themselves and the bike?

On the actual skill used, I'd go with the lowest of the two relevant - the same as you would when dual wielding.

I'd make them do 2 piloting tests... First test Pilot anthroform (to pilot their meat body) then a second pilot ground vehicles to pilot the bike, thus requiring 2 complex actions to keep it all running nicely.

aside from, you know, only one complex action per round right? O.o

You mean only 1 complex action per pass? Most VR users have at least 3 Complex Actions per round (turn) as they have 3 passes, and you have to spend at least 1 complex action per Turn controlling the vehicle or make a crash test. Since the rigger is controlling 2 vehicles in the example of rigging his own meat to drive the bike, he should be sacrificing 2 complex actions per turn to do so.

Let the bikes drive themselves (provided they have gyros). If they're such ace hackers they'll have better than a level 1 pilot program in them.

One day I'll be able to understand why people are so dead set on gimping stuff by house rules, that is in no way "unbalanced" ...

So tell me - since my remarks on RAS in general and previous editions obviously were ignored - what is in terms of game play the problem with rigged bikes without stuff like gyros or house ruled secondary piloting tests? Is that overly literal interpretation of RAS really that strong, that a more or less unprotected bike rider suddenly becomes of serious threat to the game instead of simply going by the "rule of cool"?

Rule-of-cool is fine right up to the point where dice need to get involved, then the only thing that counts is crunch. Allowing a rigger to ride is motorcycle while rigging is fine unlit that bike encounters anything that would require a dice test, then it's crunch all the way. Fluff doesn't over-ride crunch it is supposed to augment it and maybe make it look cool.

Just my opinion here of course.

edit: A -6 dice pool modifier for being in full VR will preclude all but the best riders from being able to do much while in VR.

Yet another simple question then: Where is the game balance issue that makes it necessary to use a different "crunch" when compared to a normally rigged car?

Edit: Due to your edit I have to assume, that your answer actually is: Yes, that overly literal interpetation of RAS (-6 on all physical actions instead of the original design that refered to unwanted, not task related physical actions) is more important than anything else.

A car is generally ENCLOSED, precluding the likelihood of a passenger or operator simply falling out/off. Motorcycles, not so much.

A typical car isn't likely to spontaneously fall over when unattended, or trying to turn while in motion. The motorcycle is.

...

You know, little things like physics.

Rule of cool is nice and all - but it needs to be reasonably believable. Something as simple as a safety harness (read: "seat belt"), or an enclosed windshell (I wish more cycles offered those, and/or that it was an official modification in Arsenal), or remote-activatable Gecko Pads on the passenger-contact surfaces. You know, "describe WHY you don't fall off all the time" ....?

And that is of relevance for gameplay and crunch in what way? Give me a good reason as to why this fact should technically (from ingame perspective) and mechanically (from off-play perspective) have impact on how rigged bikes are treated by crunch.

The mere fact that a car is enclosed whereas the bike isn't rises the question if there actually is a necessity to mechanically "gimp" rigged bikes even further beyond the point where attacks against its rider are much easier than against the driver of a car.



I guess you don't have that much experience with motorcycles then ... because they actually are pretty stable when "unattended" (and that even at rather low speeds). And while turning surely involves ...



... physical interaction on the driver's behalf I still have to ask again: Why do you and others insist on applying the VR pool modifier against something that is integral part of the task (driving the bike) and thus would be a design goal from the very beginning when trying to built a rigger adaption (and was functional throughout the 2050ies and 2060ies, but suddenly becomes invalid in the 2070ies again?) instead of limiting it to just the stuff that is not part of said task (like firing a hand-held weapon or doing fancy sword play / jousting)?
Where is the actual need for gimping gameplay in that particular case? I so do hope that "realism" is not your answer there ...



And where the hell is it unreasonable or unbelievable that a rigger adapted motorcycle does neither actually shut down nor heavily restrict physical movement of the driver in regards to the task at hand, but instead just hinders forms of movement that don't fit the bill? In SR you're playing in an environment where computertech is capable of reading all output of your motor cortex and overwrite it on various levels (think skill wires and the like) and suddenly your suspension of disbelief stops when it comes to a similarly precise supression / allowance of physcial movement for driving a motorcycle while experiencing VR-mode?



All pretty much unnecessary (and to a certain extend even counter-productive or even harmful for the purpose of driving a motorcycle) ... particularly in light of what RAS originally was supposed to be.

I made up a go-ganger a while ago and I believe it made better sense to actually drive the vehicle.
Someone might want to refresh my math, but aren't you actually better off in the meat than jumped into a motorcycle?

e.g. Human w/ Assumed best ware, Attributes & Skills at augmented max.
Meat: Wired Reflexes/Synaptic Boosters (3)
Initiative: (9 Reaction + 6 Intuition + 3) = 18 (4IPs)
Driving: (Reaction: 9 + Pilot Ground 6) = 15
Attack: (Agility 9 + Gunnery 6) = 15

Matrix: VCR w/ Hot Sim
Initiative = (6 Response + 6 Intuition +2) 14 (3IPs)
Driving: (Response: 6 + Maneuver Ground 6) (+2VR/-1 Threshold) = 14
Attack: (Response 6 + Gunnery 6) (+2VR/-1 Threshold) 14

I'm sure I screwed up the math there, but it looks like a driver vs. a rigger has more dice on everything, can operate pretty well out of the matrix, and has more IPs. Am I missing something?

Lowered thresholds, and an additional +2 dice on VR rigging, thanks to the VCR.
Especially the thresholds can make a big difference when doing intricate maneuvers.

Also, you can add Simsense Booster, Response Enhancer, and Simsense Accelerators for more IP and reaction in VR.

Although...is that +2 from the hot sim & another +2 from the VCR - or is that the same bonus?
I thought VCRs just allowed a rigger to jump in via VR.

This is additional to, and distinct from the +2 dice from hot-sim VR.

Also:

Yeah.

Going hot-sim VR, with a VCR implanted, means you get +4 dice and -1 threshold - whether you're in/on the vehicle, or not. It also gives you 3, 4, or even 5 IPs, without any other initiative-ware at all.

Compared to just +1 dice for driving in non-remote AR.

...

Meanwhile, I have an image in my head, now, of a go-gang with a couple well-armored vans/minibusses, each one carrying 3+ bike-riggers who completely remote-pilot their bikes. The guys ON the bikes? Gunners, nothing more; their entire purpose is to shoot stuff. Name the vans, or their drivers, thinks like "Mother" and "Auntie"; the bikes are grouped up as "Mother's Boys", or "the Nephews", and so on. Jury rig some "launch racks" that can deploy/retrieve the bikes even while the van is in motion .... now, THAT is "rule of cool", IMO.

Gameplay should model what would be expected of reality, given the presuppositions of the setting. That's why.

If you take a motorcycle, set it up for remote control but DON'T give it any innate means of staying upright .... when the sole occupant/operator goes completely limp, they fall off and the bike crashes. Immediately. Despite whatever the remote-control system tries to do.

Do the same with a car, and that is not the case.

Mechanics should reflect that reality. That's why the bike needs a gyroscopic stabiliser. (Not to mention, that stabiliser is useful even when NOT rigging the bike.)

As for falling off - again, simple descriptive elements, like "strapped in", or "gecko adhesion pads", to explain why the driver goes completely limp, but doesn't fall off.


Sure. For example, unless the motorcycle came with a windshell or equivalent? I wouldn't allow the Passenger Protection modification. For starters.


Riiiight. When's the last time you saw a 2-wheel cycle stand completely upright, with no-one sitting on it or touching any part of it, and no kickstand or other object for the bike to lean against?

... didn't think so.


If you're rigging via VR, then moving yoru hands and feet is not part of the task of driving the bike. You are in fact receiving almost zero sensory input from any of your five senses, that originate in "meatspace". A -6 die pool penalty is huge. It negates, and then some, anything but longshot tests for the vast majority of metahumanity, for anything ... even simple perception. If you're in VR, and someone SETS YOU ON FIRE ... you're not guaranteed to know that fact, unless you have a biomonitor that starts shrieking an alarm at you in VRspace.

And noone's "gimping gameplay". FFS. Just install the whole damned package, make sure your GM agrees that a cycle rigger-adaptation package includes some means of easily securing the rider to the bike (clips, a seatbelt, gecko adhesion pads, whatever), and go.

If you want to be awake, aware, and alert? Don't go VR, don't get a control rig; save your money (and essence), and just drive the bike via AR (which gives a +1 DP bonus).


It's still there. The Gyroscopic Stabilisation that used to be found only in the more-expensive Rigger Adaptation package for motorcycles, is now available separately, and even comes as standard equipment on some bikes that aren't rigger-adapted.

Nothing has been "taken away" from rigger-adapted bikes. The features of that adaptation have simply been changed to be a la carte.



VR shuts your senses and motor skills down. -6 penalty.


Fine, so my hacker's Reality Filter is "1950's gangster shootout"; firing SMGs "fits the bill" for that VR environment. Doe she get 5 meatspace passes atno VR penalty, if he's using an SMG in a firefight?

No?

Well, why not? It's the same justification you want applied to a cycle-rigger.

This is awesome.
Yoink! ^^

^_^ You're welcome!

By the way .... since you assumed "best ware" for the non-VR pilot ... Simsense Accelerator and ... bugger, I forget the other one .... but they each add +1 pass, and together are explicitly given an exception allowing for five full passes.

Also, you can get Response Enhancers for a commlink or vehicle, to boost initiative. Their Availability is 4 times Rating, so +3 from that is doable right out of the gate. And as Bannockburn reminded me (downthread, this is an edit) ... for the same 20-Availability cap as the Wires 3, they can go all the way to +5.

Then there's a Reality Filter, which can give +1 response within any node where it reigns supreme - like, your own node(s). TRON: Legacy lightcycle races, anyone?



So:

Meatspace
Initiative: (9 Reaction + 6 Intuition + 3) = 18 (4IPs)
Driving: (Reaction: 9 + Pilot Ground 6) = 15
Attack: (Agility 9 + Gunnery 6) = 15

VRspace
Initiative: (6 Response + 6 Intuition +2 VR + 5 Enhancers +1 Filter) = 20 (5IPs)
Driving: (Response: 6 + Maneuver Ground 6 +2 VR +2 Control Rig) = 16, and -1 Threshold
Attack: (Response 6 + Gunnery 6 +2 VR +2 Control Rig) = 16

Overall? Maxxed-VR rigging gives:

Initiative: +2 die pool, and +1 IP
Driving: +1 die pool, and -1 Threshold
Attack: +1 die pool

The advantage is clearly, albeit not overwhelmingly, in favor of the hot-VR rigger.

BUT WAIT ... it can get better than that, even. Specialise your Vehicle skills, and your Gunnery skill, in "Remote Operation". That's worth +2 dice on those rolls, and now:

Initiative: +2 die pool, and +1 IP
Driving: +3 die pool, and -1 Threshold
Attack: +3 die pool

Clear, undeniable advantage for the (very specialised) hot-VR rigger. And the best part? Those numbers are the same whether he's rigging a bike, or a truck, or even a TANK; it's all "ground vehicle".

And later, Response could go above 6. It'd be expensive as all hell, but it could. A Renraku Suterusu, with Response boosted to 10 (!!!), would add 4 dice to all three of those categories ... though admittedly, at 40F for the 'link and another 40F for the response chip, and a net price of nearly a quarter-million nuyen, that's not exactly something to plan on.

Still, more reasonably, you could get a Singularity Battle Buddy, which has Response 7 to start (for 17,000¥, and availability 24F - rough, but not completely unachievable).

You can also nudge the Enhancers up by 1 too, for one more die of Initiative.

Sorry, the -1 threshold doesn't count for attacks, only vehicle tests.
Also, you can safely assume +6 matrix reaction from Response Enhancers, and an additional +1 from customized interface. After all, Synaptic Boosters or Wired Reflexes aren't available at 3 at start, too
The thing you're looking for is called Simsense Booster, btw.

So edited.


Hadn't thought of that. Still, if I kept it to 20, it'd be achievable with a Restricted Gear quality .... which could also the Synaptics or Wires. So, +5 instead of +3. 2 more dice .... I'll edit that in, too.


AHA, yes, yes indeed. And I know either the booster or the accelerator takes Restricted Gear as well. So there's an opportunity cost, in blowing two RGs on the gear, but if it's your schtick, go for it, right?

As a general basis: Fine ...

If you take a motorcycle, set it up for remote control but DON'T give it any innate means of staying upright ....

That's drone control without a "driver" ... which happened to require a gyro stabilization in earlier editions (and I could see such a requirement for SR4 as well), but has nothing to do with the rigged version we're talking here.

when the sole occupant/operator goes completely limp, they fall off and the bike crashes. Immediately. Despite whatever the remote-control system tries to do.

Wrong on various accounts:

1. You're still ignoring the fact that a rigging driver doesn't necessarily completely go limb (I'll just remention RAS functiontionality and its purpose again)
2. No, if in the real world a driver goes "limb", the bike by no means "immeadiatly" crashes ... Trust me, 25 years of motocycling here.
3. A (theoretical) remote-control system (which we're still not talking) very conveniently can compensate for such an occurance, unless the surrounding hinders the most basic action: The mere act of accelerating automatically lifts a motorcycle into a very stable upright position.


Do the same with a car, and that is not the case.

Not a satisfactory answer to the questions, sorry.

Mechanics should reflect that reality.

A "reality" that is rather ill-perceived by you.

That's why the bike needs a gyroscopic stabiliser.

No, it doesn't ... not for directly rigged driving, at least as long as you're not die hard on applying the (questionable) dice pool modifer and assumption that a rigger adaption for a bike will totally block all movement of the driver.

(Not to mention, that stabiliser is useful even when NOT rigging the bike.)

Non-issue here ...

As for falling off - again, simple descriptive elements, like "strapped in", or "gecko adhesion pads", to explain why the driver goes completely limp, but doesn't fall off.

Still counter-productive to the act of driving that motorcycle and still potentially more harmful to the driver. A technical solution for rigging should always aim for using the driver's body in exactly that manner it operates the bike under normal conditions ... and the driver still doesn't have to go totally limb.

Riiiight. When's the last time you saw a 2-wheel cycle stand completely upright, with no-one sitting on it or touching any part of it, and no kickstand or other object for the bike to lean against?

... didn't think so.

Okay, so here you decide going into an agressive stance towards me. Fine ... So I suggest that you start working on your reading comprehension, since I nowhere stated that a bike in standstill wouldn't fall to the ground. I spoke about a very satisfactory "unattended" stability when moving at comparatively low speeds or higher. A moving bike just with base throttle will - unless colliding with an object - travel rather long distances in a straight line without falling down ... even without a driver.

If you're rigging via VR, then moving yoru hands and feet is not part of the task of driving the bike.

Since your body movement (including maintaining grip) is integral part of steering, it sure as hell is part of the task of driving the bike even under VR, if someone were to try to invent such a means of transportation.

You are in fact receiving almost zero sensory input from any of your five senses, that originate in "meatspace".

In fact it's just your conscience that isn't aware of the sensory input. Your body on a subconcious level still is and any implant or technology aiming to provide rigged bike riding will and must operate on that sensory input ... Maybe it's again time to reiterate that in previous editions the rigger adaption for bikes was more expensive? Or that the original VCR was directly linked to the relevant parts of the brain that would provide the required input?

A -6 die pool penalty is huge. It negates, and then some, anything but longshot tests for the vast majority of metahumanity, for anything ... even simple perception. If you're in VR, and someone SETS YOU ON FIRE ... you're not guaranteed to know that fact, unless you have a biomonitor that starts shrieking an alarm at you in VRspace.

Something that continues to assume that this -6 modifier (including the limbness) actually applies. Something that I tried tellung you is not an actual necessity, not even by "RAW".

And noone's "gimping gameplay".

So I guess I'm imangining the proposals of two piloting tests per round or your technical requirements that are beyond what "RAW" truely demands, just to fulfill a level of "realism" that is heavily poluted by incorrect assumptions concering motorcycles?

FFS. Just install the whole damned package, make sure your GM agrees that a cycle rigger-adaptation package includes some means of easily securing the rider to the bike (clips, a seatbelt, gecko adhesion pads, whatever), and go.

Why would "I" install such a "damned" package or try to make sure the GM agrees on including stuff that I deem unnecessary, because I see the involved tech being able to make use of the rigging driver's body in a way that makes all that stuff obsolete and simply use the normal pools without negative modifiers?
Coming from previous editions I'd even be seriously pissed if a GM were to try to impose such restrictions on my (combat) biking rigger.

If you want to be awake, aware, and alert? Don't go VR, don't get a control rig; save your money (and essence), and just drive the bike via AR (which gives a +1 DP bonus).

See, "I'm" not even close to wanting to be "awake", just not as "sleepy" as people seem to think that a bike rigging driver "must" be, just because they interpret VR-mode (and the associated "limbness") in a too literal way ... based on what they deem "realistic", yet has no real connection to the realities of driving a bike.
As for being "aware" and "alert": That will be more than enough covered by the sensory input provided by the bike sensors while "assuming the body".

It's still there.

Quite obviously not ... Otherwise you and others wouldn't demand stuff that wasn't and still isn't a true requirement to making it work with the game universe's context.

The Gyroscopic Stabilisation that used to be found only in the more-expensive Rigger Adaptation package for motorcycles, is now available separately, and even comes as standard equipment on some bikes that aren't rigger-adapted.

~laughs~ Flipping through my good old Rigger 3 I can tell you: gyroscopic stabilisation was availible as a seprate upgrade that was only required if the bike was to be used as drone (a.k.a without the rigger sitting on it). Rigger adaption (the thing need to "assume the body") was something entirely different. So I have to say it again: Obviously the 2050ies and 60ies tech could do things that have been lost in the 2070ies ... at least as far as you and others are concerned when demanding the prerequisites mentioned in this thread.


Nothing has been "taken away" from rigger-adapted bikes.

Is that so? Then I guess I can start rigging a SR4 motorbike without your wind shell, without geckotape or seat-belts and ofc without the suggested house rule of two piloting tests per turn and without a -6 pool modifier for driving related tests?

The features of that adaptation have simply been changed to be a la carte.

Really? I don't get that impression going by what you and others demand here.

VR shuts your senses and motor skills down. -6 penalty.

And that's the point that I'm still arguing against, because that is an overly literal interpretation of a (quite obviously "streamlined") info concerning the purpose and effects of RAS in context of where and what for it is used. 1st od 3rd Ed. Deckers under RAS still typing, riggers on bikes not going totally limb, etc. Interpretating the involved technology as being that "incomplete" is heavily going against what you claimed to be important: Believability ... in context of all availible simsense technology that can be found in the SR universe.

Fine, so my hacker's Reality Filter is "1950's gangster shootout"; firing SMGs "fits the bill" for that VR environment. Doe she get 5 meatspace passes atno VR penalty, if he's using an SMG in a firefight?

No?

Again more of an inflamatory approach instead of discussion, so: Stupid comparison stays stupid ...

Well, why not? It's the same justification you want applied to a cycle-rigger.


Actually: No again ... just as with typing on cyberdecks ...

Welcome to 4th edition. RAS doesn't work like it did in 1E, 2E, and whatever. Things change .... adapt, or die, chummer.


No it's not, not when rigging the bike via VR. At that point, you could chop the rider's arms off, and the bike wouldn't care. (Sudden loss of consciousness due to massive blood loss on the rider's part not withstanding).

Seriously: a vehicle with Rigger Adaptation, any such vehicle? The hands-on control systems are not necessary. You can even have them REMOVED entirely.


No, it doesn't. When operating a vehicle via VR, it doesn't matter if you're even on the vehicle in question. There is precisely zero difference to operating that motorcycle via VR if you're ON it, versus if you're sitting on your living room couch (aside from concerns about Mutual Signal Range in the latter case). The VR-controlled motorcycle does not need a rider's movements to operate; that's a large part of what the gyroscope is for.



.... and maybe it's time for me to reiterate that what 4E has done, really, is un-bundle the Motorcycle Gyro from the Rigger Adaptation package ...?



Cite me a rules passage that exempts motorcycle riding from that penalty.

Oh wait, you can't. Because there isn't one.


Yes, you are - if you think that was for "driving a bike via rigging". That came up from the idea of the Rigger being a biodrone, rigging their own boty in order to drive the bike. One piloting test for the biodrone, then, one piloting test fo the bike (THROUGH the biodrone). And it was not really a serious suggestion.


What technical requirements?

I assume that a Motorcycle adapted for rigger operation, already includes some means of rider-retention despite the effects of RAS. Electronically-controled gecko pads at appropriate places, that switch on when the rider goes into VR piloting, and switch off when she comes back out into meatspace.


BEcause if you're neither the author of the rulebooks, nor the GM of that game, you don't get to make the final call on what is or isn't necessary. That's why.


Are irrelevant.


VR is VR.

Going into VR means, being unaware and inactive in "meatspace".

That's 4E. Either adapt ... or go back to 3E, 2E, whatever.

Very "convenient" and again rather inpolite way of saying: Yes, I'm taking things so literal to make stuff that has no impact on game balance suck, just because I want to adhere what I think RAW says. You could have saved both my and your time by answering my original question:

So tell me - since my remarks on RAS in general and previous editions obviously were ignored - what is in terms of game play the problem with rigged bikes without stuff like gyros or house ruled secondary piloting tests? Is that overly literal interpretation of RAS really that strong, that a more or less unprotected bike rider suddenly becomes of serious threat to the game instead of simply going by the "rule of cool"?

with a plain and simple "Yes" ~sigh~

No it's not, not when rigging the bike via VR.

You were the one that brought "realism" into the equation. Any level of "realism" demands that the driver is part of the steering action ... even while going into VR-Mode. So you're contradicting your own requirements. Be my guest with that.

Seriously: a vehicle with Rigger Adaptation, any such vehicle? The hands-on control systems are not necessary. You can even have them REMOVED entirely.

You could ... and then (and just then) I could see an argument for requiring certain forms of strapping the driver onto the bike. However, since driving a bike doesn't just involve "hands-on" control, but constantly makes use of body weight for purposes of steering (something where a gyro in combination with a strapped on, but otherwise "limb" body would get into serious trouble *hence my reference to counter-productvity and even harmfulness towards the driver*), that's just not the whole story there. Get yourself a motorbike and actually try driving it.

No, it doesn't. When operating a vehicle via VR, it doesn't matter if you're even on the vehicle in question. There is precisely zero difference to operating that motorcycle via VR if you're ON it, versus if you're sitting on your living room couch (aside from concerns about Mutual Signal Range in the latter case). The VR-controlled motorcycle does not need a rider's movements to operate; that's a large part of what the gyroscope is for.

So much for your claims of "realism" and "believability". Oh, and there sure as hell are differences between a bike being rigged directly and being remote controlled as drone: A) the body and B) the necessity of a gyro for one while not being necessary for the other

.... and maybe it's time for me to reiterate that what 4E has done, really, is un-bundle the Motorcycle Gyro from the Rigger Adaptation package ...?

So again I have to question your reading comprehension: How can 4E "unbundle" something that was not "bundled" to begin with?

Cite me a rules passage that exempts motorcycle riding from that penalty.

Cite me one, that says that RAS in all cases and without exception will shut down all movement (there's already the precedence that you can actually move/act with said modifier, so movement actually isn't restricted) and then provide a passage that says that RAS cannot work on different levels of supression, depending on the intended form of simsense interaction.

Oh wait, you can't. Because there isn't one.

~yawn~ Can you do better?

Yes, you are - if you think that was for "driving a bike via rigging". That came up from the idea of the Rigger being a biodrone, rigging their own boty in order to drive the bike. One piloting test for the biodrone, then, one piloting test fo the bike (THROUGH the biodrone). And it was not really a serious suggestion.

And why was that particular suggestion brought up? Beats me, if it wasn't to circumvent all those requirements that you and others (including ther person who made that suggestion) deem necessary.

What technical requirements?

You demand a gyro and some form of strapping onto the bike. Those are technical requirements, ne c'est pas?

I assume that a Motorcycle adapted for rigger operation, already includes some means of rider-retention despite the effects of RAS. Electronically-controled gecko pads at appropriate places, that switch on when the rider goes into VR piloting, and switch off when she comes back out into meatspace.

While I still assume that all that stuff simply isn't necessary.

BEcause if you're neither the author of the rulebooks, nor the GM of that game, you don't get to make the final call on what is or isn't necessary. That's why.

I get the final call on who I will play with. But that part is irrelevant to this discussion, just as you mentioning this in the first place.

Are irrelevant.

And that's just ignorant ... But hey, thankfully I don't have to play with you, right?

VR is VR.

Or maybe not?

Going into VR means, being unaware and inactive in "meatspace".

You are aware of the difference between conscious and subconscious perception and effects? I forget, you simply ignore it, for the sake of what you deem "realistic" and "RAW", right?

That's 4E. Either adapt ... or go back to 3E, 2E, whatever.

I guess ignorance is truely bliss

There is no problem with being able to control your meat body while in VR, because there are rules for it. The -6 to physical actions while in VR doesn't mean you can't grip a handle or clinch your thighs or even shift your wait, it means you're blind (and deaf) to the real world. Your body doesn't have to go completely limp while rigging. The rules are fine and totally allow the rigging of motorcycles. All your meat body is doing is holding on, while the bike does everything else. Gripping and holding on is a non-test, unless its something extreme, like maybe a crash test. I don't see the problem.

That's not really the case, with most motorcycles (especially fast ones). There's quite a bit of body movement necessary for turning, even at low speeds, and in addition to operating the controls. Correct body positioning, either contrary to the lean of the bike (counterweighting it with your bodymass) or with the lean of the bike (getting a 'knee down' or even an elbow at higher lean angles), is pretty crucial to getting the bike turned. Just holding on wouldn't really cut it.

Honestly, the only solution I see for VR piloting WHILE on the bike is a rigger cocoon.
Even if we rule you *can* hang on...your meat body is still a target.
I could see VRing inside tank or bulldog, but motorcycles are almost entirely risk with very little reward.

So. You want to handwave away the current RAW, and cast aspersions at anyone who doesn't dothe same? No, sorry, that doesn't fly with me.


How many times have you controlled a motorcycle while immersed in a full-sensorium Virtual Reality environment?

How many motorcycles have you seen, which were adapted for control by such means - and further, control in such a way that it doesn't matter if the driver is even on the same continent as the motorcycle?

...

I thought as much.

See, what you're refusing to let go of is this: how motorcycles are controlled in real life, right now, with hands-on controls? Does not dictate how a VR control system would work.

The two may both be fruit, and may both grow on trees. But one's red, and the other's orange.


The Gyro is necessary in both cases. and the presence or absence of a body on that cycle, doesn't change how it is operated. There's no change in die pools, thresholds, or anything of the sort.


"That which is not specified, does not exist".


An idle thought spawned from a flahs of creativity?

That's where my "Mother" / "Auntie" go-gang idea came from, after all.


The rules demand the Gyro.

I only suggest that, countering people's questions regarding "wouldn't you just fall off", that there are easy, simple, logical, setting- and crunch-compliant ways to HANDWAVE THAY WORRY AWAY.

"He doesn't fall because any rigger-adaptation for a bike, or any craft you ride OURSIDE of really, includes ways to keep you ON it, even if you go into full VR."

That's it. That's all.

Mostly since then, you've been whining about "but it makes me put a GYRO in there! waaah! I never had to do that in older editions, ten and twenty years ago! Change sucks ... waaaaaah!"

::sigh::



Feh, you don't even have to worry about it. After this nonsense thread, you're on my "actively avoid" list.


Nope. No maybes. It is what it is, and it is nothing else.

Not to pour oil on the flames, but, let's consider this from a factual RAW point of view then.

Firstly, I find it strange that you, Pax, demand that physics need to be obeyed, then stating that RL doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. But that's beside the point.

Secondly, and more importantly:
Nowhere in the core rulebook does it say that motorcycles aren't riggable without modifications. In fact, we all know that vehicle rules are woefully underrepresented in the current edition. However, we have one mention of the rigger adaption:


Note, 'a vehicle' does not preclude or state special requirements for a bike. Armed with this knowledge, I proceed first to the Control Rig cyberware, which again does not mention bikes at all. Look it up, it's on p. 338.
From there, back to p. 244, where the Rigger Adaption so helpfully leads us. Again, nothing about bikes, at all. Nothing much about rigging vehicles, too, but you can jump into a drone, so let's look there.
P. 245, that is.
Again, no mention of different kind of vehicles needing different requirements.

pp. 225-226 is the next stop, it describes VR.

Emphasis mine.
Now this is some actual information we can work with. It says on the one hand, that the hacker's senses are overwhelmed, and on the other, that any physical action suffers a -6 modifier.

Now we can conclude that it is
a) Not impossible, but rather inconvenient, to rig a bike, according to the rules presented in the core book, on grounds of VCRs netting you a smooth -4 to your vehicle tests, or
b) That you can rig a bike just fine, with the thought that the rigger's senses are overwhelmed, but those are actually being replaced by the vehicle's sensors. Furthermore, he doesn't go limp, since there is no mention of that.

But let's go a bit further and take a look at Arsenal, where the Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization is mentioned, which, btw, was never included in any rigging a bike requirements, ever.

Again, no mention of being a requirement for rigging a bike. At all. It is helpful if you make a crash test, and it is helpful if you want to use the thing as a drone, but neither do you need it for rigging, nor for actually using it as a drone.
For that, you only need the Rigger Adaption, which is again described, with different, expanded wording, on p. 142


Again, there's no special mention of additional systems required for rigging a bike. More importantly, there's the mention of 'a basic sensor network, so a jumped-in rigger can sense the area around the vehicle' (perhaps overriding the overwhelmed VR senses?) and a 'control system interface'. What exact nature this interface is, is left open, but I think you can safely rule this as a system that allows a bike rigger to actually rig his bike without having more problems than without the rig.


Edit: Actually, I found something new to me, while reading up on Hot Sim. You only receive +2 to Matrix tests. So, the VCR replaces the matrix bonus with a +2 bonus to vehicle tests, instead.

--->>>>>Edit: Actually, I found something new to me, while reading up on Hot Sim. You only receive +2 to Matrix tests. So, the VCR replaces the matrix bonus with a +2 bonus to vehicle tests, instead.

So is a VCR an either/or +2/+2 or both +4?

A VCR gives +2 to vehicle tests, while jumped in (i.e. in VR, cold or hot) and is a requirement for actually jumping into a vehicle instead of manually or remote controlling it.
Hot Sim VR by itself gives +2 to matrix tests, the VCR adding another +2 on top, so the bonus is, in the first case, +2, but for vehicle tests while jumped in, it is +4
Would you, e.g. try to sniff out another drone's connection while rigging your vehicle and be forced to make a maneuver or crash test, the Electronic Warfare+Scan would be at a +2, for being a matrix test, while the crash test would be Vehicle Skill+Response+Handling+4 for being a vehicle test done while jumped in (but also its threshold would be reduced by 1).

Edit: Corrected the examples.

Rigging is a Matrix test...


Also, while I'm thinking about it, the rigger will know the location of his own meat body because he'll be aware of his body pressing down on the vehicle. So he'll be able to figure out how to shift his body weight based off the sensors of the bike.

See? I knew that and then I got confused again
Thanks.