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mfb
had a cool idea for a new mod for smartlink-2 processors.

Multi-Object Processing
Ess: 0.1
Cost: 2,000Y
Fluff: The multi-object subprocessor takes advantage of downcycles in the main smartlink processor's queue, using them to track possible targets peripheral to the main target.
Game Effect: additional -2 TN to second and following targets fired at during a single combat phase.
Crusher Bob
Eh? I though it did that already?

Or are you talking about negating the switching target modifier?
mfb
clarified. basically, it allows you to fire at two seperate targets with no modifier. the third target is then +2 TN, fourth +4, and so on.
Arethusa
I believe he is. Personally, given everything else SL-2 does, it kind of seems like it should do that already. For that reason, I have to say I don't like this, though aside from that, the concept and execution are solid enough.

[edit]

Beat me to it. In that case, I have to say, I don't like how it works mechanically. Personally, I'd prefer it if it just halved the penalty. Makes more sense, too, I think.
Eyeless Blond
Maybe it would be more balanced if the bonus were not compatible with the +2 called shot modifier? As it is you're just making the SL-2 even better than it is already, which it frankly doesn't need to be. smile.gif
Snow_Fox
This should be more of tactical headware that boosts the smart link, the smart link itself is a tie between your vision and where the gun is aimed. (think Robocop's targeting). This sounds like a HUD on a fighter that can track mulitple targets. The problem is that for the speed advantage the system would have to pre-choose the second target for you. That means the player looses some control, does it predesignate "nearest target to the shooter" "Target with least need to correct aimn from last shot" etc. If the shooter has to think about it, that causes a delay and there would be no bene from the tech.

Sort of "Damn I wanted to geek the mage but the gun keeps targeting the goons between us"
mfb
not really. what it does, basically, is keep a running set of basic calculations on every viable target in your field of vision. that way, when you switch targets, the processor already has the groundwork it needs to set up a full firing solution, instead of calculating everything from the ground up.
Arethusa
Given that they've been described as essentially devices to project the effects of laser sighting equipment onto your field of view, I don't think a firing solution ever enters into it with the exception of longer ranges and indirect fire.
mfb
well, given that there are no range maximums on smartlinks (they even work for the max ranges on railguns), they certainly don't use laser sights. some sort of calculation has to take place at some point; at sniper rifle ranges, not to mention railgun ranges, bullet rise and drop must be accounted for; range for these calculations is probably taken from the user's own depth perception and spatial awareness (smartgoggles have neither, which explains their lesser effectiveness). not to mention, if no calculation takes place, there's no need for a processor that links with the human nervous system. where did you find the description of them that calls them simple laser sights?
I Eat Time
The way I've read it, the Smartlink calculates the gun's angle with your arm and inclination. Most of the aiming still happens with your arm, but the Smartlink does some angle trajectory calculations once you've acquired the target to take into account things you can't think of at the moment. (Recoil, bullet travel time, etc.) It appears in your field of vision as a targeting reticule or crosshairs, showing exactly what you're aiming at, or more specifically, what you're going to shoot when you squeeze the trigger. (If I'm wrong or there's more specifics in the book, please tell me, I've unfortunately lost most of mine).

Alternatively, I think SL-2 does some fair target acquisition, a more elaborate crosshair to see -exactly- where you're shooting, faster calculations, etc. In game terms, you can sharpshoot better, hence the half-modifier for Called Shots.

Basically, I don't know the the SL does any kind of serious 'target acquisition" to begin with, snapping your arm to its appropriate place to shoot the gun. I guess the SL-2 add-on you're talking about could highlight close moving targets, so eyeing your next shot won't be so difficult.

Again, if the SL actually moves your arm, or some other effect, someone tell me.
Smiley
Welcome to Dumpshock. Beware of magically active office furniture.
mfb
right, and it doesn't have to move your arm. think about it in terms of Virtua Cop: the guy you want to shoot at has a little reticle around him that makes it easier to aim at him, and the other guys around him have their own reticles that make it easier to switch targets once the first guy goes down. the smartlink already knows where you need to put your gun in order to make a shot at each target in your field of view; you just have to move it there.
Arethusa
QUOTE (mfb)
well, given that there are no range maximums on smartlinks (they even work for the max ranges on railguns), they certainly don't use laser sights. some sort of calculation has to take place at some point; at sniper rifle ranges, not to mention railgun ranges, bullet rise and drop must be accounted for; range for these calculations is probably taken from the user's own depth perception and spatial awareness (smartgoggles have neither, which explains their lesser effectiveness). not to mention, if no calculation takes place, there's no need for a processor that links with the human nervous system. where did you find the description of them that calls them simple laser sights?

No, I meant that they give you the effects of laser sighting overlayed over your vision. So, in essence, what you see with Smartlink installed is a line projecting from your weapon to where your weapon will hit, but it's not an actual laser projecting from the weapon. Unlike a laser sight and because of the complex processing it does, it also calculates (albeit roughly) for flight ballistics, wind, etc. But I really don't think it does actual target acquisition. That's a mess of things that a simple Smartlink doesn't get into— at least from how I believe it's been described. Honestly, on the level of a single person, target acquisition isn't even that useful, and I don't see it being used.

Incidentally, do you think Smartlinks are purely passive as far as sensing all the information needed for this stuff goes, or do you think there's an active component (laser rangefinder, etc)?
Lilt
I think I Eat Time has it nailed pretty-much. Let's look at what the system consists of:
A Limited Simrig (Only in cyber versions)
An Induction Pad (Optional for cyber versions)
A Processor
An Eye Display
A Weapon Modification

So a processor, an eye display, and weapon mod are sufficient to give you a -1 to TNs. If you make the processor and eye display cyber and add-in a simrig then you get -2 TN. Nothing there is capible of moving your body though.
I Eat Time
I can see an advancement in cybertech involving Skillsofts working with it, but they'd be pretty expensive, and would really shoot game balance out the window.

By the way, Lilt, I dunno if you've realized it, but that's the most friggin' Bushido Zen tag line I've ever seen.
simonw2000
Anyone know why you can't use smartlinks and Laser Sights?
mfb
conflicting data. a laser sight projects a straight line from (roughly) the barrel of your weapon, to where you're shooting. bullets don't go in straight lines, however; they rise, once they leave the barrel, then begin to fall again about midway through their path. smartlinks take this into account, and so are able to tell you where your bullet will hit, as opposed to simply telling you where the gun's pointed.

arethusa, i see smartlinks as depending completely on the user's sensorium, or on imaging hardware built into smartgoggles. smartlinks have to have some limited ability to acquire targets, however, as it would otherwise be impossible to correctly calculate ranges (in order to calculate the distance between you and something else, you have to have that something else!). for smartgoggles, this is done through simple triangulation, and maybe some sort of low-end retinal scanner that detects how far out your eye is focusing. cybernetic links can simply read your visual sensorium through the limited simrig to determine what you're looking at. smartgun processors with multi-object processing can use the same cues to guestimate what else in the user's field of view might be a viable target.
Lindt
Meh, frag it, and call it a SL-3. More bang for your essence. Better processer allows for faster more accurate movment between possible targets. Just costs a bit more money.
Lilt
I would suggest that you phrase it as 'removing penalties' rather than giving TN bonuses. The TN bonuses method would allow adepts with centering on ranged combat to lower the TN further than they could have originally, which probably shouldn't be the case.
Erghitz
I had made something similar to this, and I was actually deciding to call it a prototype to SmartLink III.

I think I had penalty reduced from +2 to +1 for switching targets in sight. If the user was using two guns they could fire at two targets with no penalty (Other than the penalties associated with using two weapons) but switching targets with two guns still had the penalty at +2.

If you want fluff they you could always use the simrig giving the person the feeling of when to fire while moving the gun to the next target which I assume is half the problem. So instead of complete winging it when moving targets the user has the feeling of when to fire while switching to the target.

-- Erghitz
Nikoli
I just want the SL and SL-2 to work with vision mag again.
Fahr
I disagree with mfb in target aquisition by smartlink.

I don't think SL does anything of the sort. your brain is all the target aquisition part. you want to hit the mage in the back, so you move your gun to point at him, in doing so the reticle moves (with help of trajectory calcs) to show you what you would hit if you pulled the trigger right then. the human adjusts there arm until the reticle is on the thing he wants to hit. but the smartlink can't tell if that is a person, door, grenade in mid flight or any other data.

In order for it to help you target your next target it has to know what you intend to target next. and even then, it won't help you much, you still have to move your gun to the next target after you decide what it is.

what you might be looking for would be something like:
Target highlighter
essence .2
cost 5000 nuyen.gif
this cyber highlights potential targets in your field of vision based on a set of parameters loaded into some sort of memory device (headware, chip or datajacked memory) these parameters help the user identify targets of certain types, or down to specific individuals. this helps with perception tests for this criteria, and target switching penalty reduction when used to target multiple targets that fall under the criteria. this has the drawback of adding an equal penalty to perception of non highlighted targets and multiple target shooting of non highlighted targets due to the distraction that the highlighting provides in those situations.

reduce multiple target penalties by half for highlighted targets, and double for non-highlighted targets in the presence of highlighted targets.

reduce distracted penalty for perception test when looking for highlighted targets, and apply distracted penalty for all other perception tests.


something like this maybe?

-Mike R. nuyen.gif
TheHawkMan
Isn't there a Friend or Foe module for SL2 ? allowing you to register friendly targets by tem carryign a transmitter or something ?

I'd say this seems to indiciate there is taregt aquisition, and even possibly some primitive level of probability checking , so you get a cursor where the target will be when the bullet arrives. Like fighters have today.

in the advanced technology in shadowrun recognizing humand and inanimate objects shouldn't be a problem. the whole fact that it only locks onto one target at a time also seems to indicate this is how it is. If it didn't have target aquisition, then you coulde easily, use akimbo with two separate targets, wich you can't with regular SL2 as far as I remember. if each gun just had a crosshair moving over the terrain in front of you, this wouldn't be an issue.
mfb
indeed, there is smartlink-compatible IFF gear.

Fahr, if that's the case, how do you explain the lower modifier on called shots when using a smartlink-2?
Fahr
better processor and simrig give you smaller crosshairs/better precision...

IE SL1 gives you a target Red Dot that covers a 1 foot diameter at short range on the target getting progressively larger at further ranges relative to the target (showing the lack of solid data)

SL2 gives you a smaller dot like 2 inch diameter at short range. still getting progressively larger at longer ranges relative to the target.

SL2 means that the bullet prediction is better and so you can place your shot easier, SL1 just gives you a general idea of the area, fine if all you want to do is shoot center mass, but not too helpful for shooting someones eye.

-Mike R

edit:typos
Entropy Kid
QUOTE
Isn't there a Friend or Foe module for SL2 ? allowing you to register friendly targets by tem carryign a transmitter or something ?

I'd say this seems to indiciate there is taregt aquisition, and even possibly some primitive level of probability checking , so you get a cursor where the target will be when the bullet arrives. Like fighters have today.
Hopefully I'm thinking of the right thing...

The Safe Target System (pg. 33 CC) is described as two parts, a modification to the gun and a transmitter worn by friendlies. The transmitter has a GPS system and the gun modification has one as well, and also scans for the friendly signal to keep track whether or not the gun is pointed toward the "friend." Whenever the modified gun is pointed within a two meter radius "safety zone" of a friendly signal, the gun's safety engages and it can't fire. The text says this works for signals behind the modified gun as well; meaning if the modified gun happens to be inside a safety zone it won't fire either. So, if I'm thinking of the right hardware, what does this mean?

Smartlink processors do not identify targets.
mfb
in order for a smartlink to properly calculate range, it must have some way of knowing what you're shooting at. otherwise, the system will have no way of knowing whether the target i'm shooting at is a foot away or a mile away. those of you who've never had any experience shooting targets at different ranges might not understand this, but bullet rise and drop is a very significant factor in marksmanship--as little a difference as 50m can throw off your aim to the point where you will miss completely. in order to calculate a ballistic arc that intersects your target, the smartlink must know where your target is.

i'm not saying that the smartlink, as it stands, examines your visual sensorium and decides what is and is not a target. i'm saying that it can examine your sensorium, determine what you're looking at, and determine where you need to place your weapon in order to hit what you're looking at. you must then move your gun into the correct position.

i'm also saying that, with a boost in processing power and some extra instructions, the smartlink can process that same data and determine what else in your field of view you identify as a target. it can then do some basic calculations on what you'll need to do in order to hit those targets, and keep it in reserve should you decide to do so.
Herald of Verjigorm
It can calculate the range to whatever is in the current ballistic path. It doesn't need to track the target as an object.
[edit]Knowing the angle of the gun and the typical ballistics for the ammo type, you can calculate the uninterrupted flight path. Applying the uninterrupted flight path to the actual world will result in a number of collisions. The "red dot" would be placed at the first (or, at customer preference, every) point where the ideal path intersects with something.
mfb
and how is it supposed to tell you where that ballistic path intersects anything?
I Eat Time
By placing a red dot at the point of intersection in your field of vision.

Wherever the gun is pointing, the Smartlink calculates what will happen if you pull the trigger at that point. As previously stated, with only the gun angle and some other measurements that could be derived 'visually', like relative distance, strong winds, attacker movement, the SL can calculate a flight trajectory for the bullet. Irregardless of what you're aiming at, for every place you could aim your gun, it paints a red dot where the bullet would land. It doesn't need target acquision.

In the case of the Friendly Fire Off mod, if that red dot lands within two meters of one of the Safety Zone holders, the safety engages until the dot's out of it.
mfb
so, in other words, the smartlink checks your field of vision and determines how far out you're looking, right? that's what i've been saying. whatever you're looking at, that's what the smartlink calculates a ballistic arc to, based on the weapon you've got. with the multi-object processing add-on, it can also determine from you eye movements and/or simple motion analysis (if it's moving, it's a possible target) what else you might end up shooting at, and set up the basic calculations.
Smiley
That's about as reasonable an explanation i've heard so far. Sounds good to me.
I Eat Time
QUOTE (mfb)
so, in other words, the smartlink checks your field of vision and determines how far out you're looking, right? that's what i've been saying. whatever you're looking at, that's what the smartlink calculates a ballistic arc to, based on the weapon you've got. with the multi-object processing add-on, it can also determine from you eye movements and/or simple motion analysis (if it's moving, it's a possible target) what else you might end up shooting at, and set up the basic calculations.

I really don't mean to split hairs or seem to argue, and yeah it's all up to interpretation, but I want to be abundantly clear on what I think happens:

The Smartlink doesn't care what you are or are not looking at. The only thing the Smartlink does is calculate where, with the current position of your gun, a bullet is going to hit, and display the results on your vision.

Example: John Gardner (my Ghoul character with SL2) pulls out his PredIII with silencer in the middle of an interrogation. He points it where he thinks the victim's head will be in sight, the SL makes some calculations, and places the red dot slightly to the right of the middle forehead. Interrogating a little more, still looking straight at the victim, Gardner waves his gun around carelessly. In his field of vision, he sees a red dot flying along the walls and carpet as the gun points in different directions, and the SL calculates bulletfalls for each direction.

If he looks one way and points the gun the other way, the red dot's not going to be in his field of vision. Maybe it has a light-colored arrow pointing to the right or left to direct him to where the dot lies.

If Gardner had a SL 1, the tracking movement for the red dot would be jerkier, there may not be as many eye-catching reticules or crosshairs around it so it's harder to spot, and in general it doesn't keep a better track of where the barrel's aiming.

Does this make it a little more clear?
mfb
dude, how is the smartlink going to know where the victim's head is? if it doesn't know where the victim's head is, it can't put a dot in the right place because it doesn't know how far out you're shooting. if it thinks you're shooting a 5m target, it will place the dot slightly above where the barrel of the gun points (so that you have to lower the weapon slightly to hit what you want to hit, because the bullet will rise slightly as it comes out of the barrel). if it thinks your target is 50m distant, it will probably put the dot slightly below where the barrel is pointed, so that you have to raise the weapon some to hit what you want to hit. if it doesn't know how far the target is at all, it can't put a dot anywhere, period, because there's no way for it to know how far the bullet will rise or fall on the way to the target.
Smiley
Then what's the difference between that and a normal laser sight?
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Smiley)
Then what's the difference between that and a normal laser sight?

Smartlink has a proper ballistic path, laser sight has a straight line. That can make a significant difference between relative accuracies.
Smiley
I should have been clearer. I meant, what's the difference between the time eater's interpretation and a laser sight?
I Eat Time
QUOTE (mfb)
dude, how is the smartlink going to know where the victim's head is?

Because it takes a map of your field of vision, does some VERY rough range estimates before calculations, and calculates where the gun barrel is aimed at, then allots for certain conditions, that lasers don't. It makes a 3-D flight trajectory starting at you and moving in a straight line, and then feeds that back into the map it got from your vision. The line intersects the map along a path leading through the guy's forehead, and since it would be impossible to put the red dot BEHIND his head, it simply paints it over the field of vision showing where the trajectory is.

Trajectory intersects through head, paints line going straight away from you, line looks like dot. Good?
mfb
nothing, smiley, which is the problem. bullets don't go in straight lines. smartlinks supposedly account for that, but with I Eat Time's explanation, they can't possibly do so.

Time: where is it getting the range estimates from? also, the line will not look like a dot. bullets don't go straight, they arc like football passes. you'll get a something that looks like an |, with your method.
I Eat Time
QUOTE (Smiley @ Apr 29 2004, 10:44 PM)
I should have been clearer. I meant, what's the difference between the time eater's interpretation and a laser sight?

Laser sights are for straight lines, not parabolic paths that bullets take. Also, the SL can take in additional information just from something so simple as a dermal sensor to detect wind, account for that, and so forth.

Also, the target probably isn't just a red dot. It's probably a crosshairs or some other form of reticule that's easier to track, tracks smoother, and gives a 'general area of penetration' until the calculations are complete and an exact target can be found.

Finally, people can detect lasers, and lasers show up in smoke, and sometimes can be pretty hard to see. Smartlink avoids all this.

Edited after seeing mfb's post:

Range estimates based on the same strategies your eyes use to estimate distances are pretty accurate. And we don't even need two eyes. Close an eye and walk sometime, just by judging sizes, relative movement, and so forth, you can still avoid from running into a wall or fencepost.
mfb
that's what i've been saying all along, man. the smartlink judges, from how your eyes flex and focus, as well as triangulation from the seperate visual feeds from each eye, how far out you're looking.
I Eat Time
QUOTE (mfb)
that's what i've been saying all along, man. the smartlink judges, from how your eyes flex and focus, as well as triangulation from the seperate visual feeds from each eye, how far out you're looking.

I agree, but that's used to put a perspective of size and distance on the 'map' I was talking about. It doesn't focus in on what you're 'eyeing' though.

If it did, the only useful application of this is to move your arm where you want the shot to go, and we already know Smartlinks don't do this.

Otherwise, you'd be able to tell exactly WHAT you wanted to shoot at, but have no idea where the gun was pointed. Which is pretty useless. Or you'd have both our systems, highlighted people in your field of vision and red dots to match up with them, which is moderately useful, but not much better than the simple red dot method. And cluttery.
mfb
a system like that could also provide a sensory feed that tells you how close to the 'sweet spot' you are. your hand feels slightly warmer, the closer you bring your weapon in line with what you're looking at. the lack of that extra sense helps explain why smartgoggles only get a -1 TN mod.
Fahr
what you are missing mfb is that the data of how far away is that thing is inherent in human vision. 2 eyes means I know how far away everything in my field of vision is, without knowing what it is. the smartlink doesn't need to know what it is I am pointing the gun at to figure out if it will intersectthe parabollic path of the bullet fired from your gun.

is that a target or not, the smartlink does notcare, it doesn't know nor would you want it too, it doesn't tell you to shoot that guy in the head, it just shows you if the bullet would likely hit there.

It can't tell you how close to the sweet spot you are because it doesn't know the concept of a sweet spot, it only tellsyouwhere the bullet will likely impact.

basically, what you want this to do is ID potential targetsfor you, which smartlink of any kind simply doesn't do, not would you want it too. the Cyber I outlined earlier would approximate what you want this to do, basically tell you what is a target and what isnot, but that is not what smartlink doesat all. it isjust an improvement over a standard lasersight to take parabollic arcs into account as well as ballistics and give you more control of you weapon.

and smartgoggles are just not as good at figuringout where your gun is aimed,it only has the data from the internal sensors of the goggles and the gun, no feedback from the body about tilt vs. gravity (from ears) or exact position of gun relative to the goggles. these would make it less accurate.

-Mike R.

edited: added goggle part
Voran
I think the conventional smartlink 2 (without rangefinder) doesn't know how far away a target is. Any more so than a normal person looking at a person standing 50 meters away knows specifically the target is 50 meters away. I think the benefit of a internal smartlink setup, unlike a lasersight (some of the shadowtalk type feedback also seems to support) that a smartlinked gun feels like an extension of your body. So it doesn't feel like you're pointing a gun, it feels like you're pointing your finger.

When you throw a rangefinder into the mix, the TNs get dramatically better for longer ranges because combined with the Smartlink2 it now CAN calculate the drop and factor it into where it places that little dot.


I could see some additional smartlink kinda setup that allows you to slave your firing arm to the processor, letting you sorta lock multiple targets like robocop. But I would see that only happening if you've got a cybertorso and cyberarm.
Crusher Bob
Heh, I already feel like I'm pointing at a target when using a pistol. I don't need some silly peice of tech to do the job. That's one of the whole points of good pistol ergonomics, some are just more 'shootable' than others (also depends on your hand size, and stuff).

mfb
fahr, i'm not missing that at all. what you just pointed out? that's exactly what i've been saying, this whole time. the multi-object processing, what it would do is determine where you think you might shoot next, and set up the calculations for shooting at those points. when i say the smartlink processes targets, i mean exactly that--it processes targets, points of aim, the geometric point in 3d space that you're trying to hit. i'm not saying it recognizes trolls, cars, birds, or whatever as targets--i'm saying that when your eyes track a troll, a car, or a bird, the smartlink registers the point in space that you're looking at as a target.

voran, i've explained several times why that's not possible. your explanation also fails to explain how smartgoggles work. and, like crusher said, pointing a pistol isn't much harder than pointing your finger.
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