hey, I will probably be starting a new campaign soon and wanted to try my hand at a mage since my other characters were gun-ho kung-fu fighters. any general advice on mages? 750karmagen. chaX2 contacts. I have two ideas atm but I am open to others, first one was an elf cha/will based mage, in a popular rock band and uses his magic a lot to add special effects and give the crowd that special oomph that other bands seem to never have I mean a little manipulation spell never hurt anyone right? the other is more down to earth, a mage detective of sorts have not considered what made him get into the shadows just yet but the concept struck me as niffty. I want to be able to do some running and other athletic things with them but focus mostly on being a mojo slinger. and any advice on not dieing to "geek the mage" tactics from enemy if things go down is nice.

First thing's first, your concepts seem rather solid. I'm a fan of Elf/Cha-tradition casters (particularly black magic). The strength here will be in summoning and binding spirits, but the inflated drain soak isn't exactly bad for spellcasting, either. I am trying to stretch myself into other casting-type areas, but I also love to go without cyberware, while others might suggest minimal amounts to improve your spellcasting capabilities (Cybereyes for longer-range spellcasting/additional visual spectra. SuRGE is a good boost to this (Metagenetic Improvement: Charisma), as is a moderately-priced sustaining focus (for "Increase [Attribute]: Charisma"), Empathy Software (buy at Rating 6, transfer to a better 'link after start* or else buy R6 glasses/goggles/camera and load it directly on them).

As for an investigator... the possibilities are endless (you typically want to focus on Intuition or Logic, and otherwise just be all snooping and stuff).

Advice for not being "geeked" first? Troll/Orc are always tough, dwarves as well. High Rea/Int will keep your initiative up. You can try one of the tricks I pulled, which is to be a "back-line" mage, and focus on keeping your allies buffed up with Improved Reflexes, Armor spells, and stat boosts. Let them take the big risks while you stay safe behind cover... for now... There's also the "always have an escape plan" option, which is a personal choice of how you want to ditch when everything gets too hot. Animal transformations, Shape [Element], clutch spirit summoning/use, lots of explosives, illusion spells, mind control (a bit of a social faux pas, but dead people have a harder time getting back into the good graces of other people), what have you. Take your pick, and then take your pick again and again until you're happy with your options. Also, wear armor and keep a side arm so you can make them think you're NOT a mage (don't rely on magic for EVERYTHING).

* Std character gen restricts availability to 12 or less, a rating 6 Response on a commlink is availability 16.

thanks for the reply, also I was wondering what mentor spirits would be suggested for investigator, I like dog, wise warrior, sky father, and a few others almost fit. any in game exp with any of the named ones?

Improved reflexes gives you extra initiative passes, which can be used defensively. Combat sense or deflect are better than armor, both because dodging completely is better than soaking damage, and because they are not a field of glowing energy that draws attention (and enemy fire) to you. Improved invisibility is even better - but remember that some enemies will have multiple senses/sensors, so it is not 100% effective. Levitate, in addition to being a good overall utility spell, is great for mobility, meaning getting the heck out of there in a hurry. Be careful not to fly up in an open area where you are making an obvious target of yourself. Finally, one other way to avoid the dangers of combat (Rubic mentioned being a support/buff mage) is to summon spirits and have them do the fighting for you.

The good thing about 750 karmagen is that you will be able to make a strong mage, and still have enough karma left to branch out a bit, skill-wise.

also what are the thoughts about taking the spell heal? I am still restricted to the spells x2 rating of spell-casting, (12) atm I have combat: fireball (limited) stunball (limited) and stunbolt. detection: detect magic, mind probe, and detect individual. health: heal and increase reflexes (plus sustaining foci). illusion: stealth, Imprvd. invisibility and chaotic world. Manipulation: deflection (complete with another sustaining foci). now. any advice on this list? remember this is for the detective/investigator. also I am allowed one initiation grade, atm I took a 7 magic and grabbed centering. should I drop magic down to 6 and grab a few more skills or keep it at 7? also what would a good tradition be? I am having a hard time finding one that fits the character forming in my head. I may make one and post it if I cant find one to my liking. I can only get an armor of Ballistics:10 Impact:8 without being detrimental as of now. Is that good, bad, or average? I am putting a good bit of time into this guy and I do not want him getting offed withing 2-3 sessions lol. and as for combat this guy may have a spirit help him but he is more of the in the heat of it guy. mainly he uses spirits to help find guys, locate item, guard people places, or things and the like. this may change though as nothing is set in stone fully for the concept.

EDIT: on another note this guy isn't the charming talk it out of them guy, he gets the job done. IE-mind probe. (though unless hostile he usually does try to talk it out of them. though seems likely to fail miserably at this moment) also I am tottering back and forth from human to ork and ork to human .-.

Heal spell is ALWAYS recommended, unless you have a specific reason not to. I've had other players and my GM get upset at me for not taking it before, but these were on character concepts specifically excluding the spell for character and player reasons. I like to consider myself a reasonable person, but you can only hear the term "heal bitch" so many times before you have to make a statement. Frankly, though, I liked HuLi. She was powerful, effective, very capable in support when we weren't just randomly thrown into a situation without any recon first, somewhat capable support without recon, and tactically sufficient in combat between spells and spirits. GAWD I loved that huge soak pool.

Yea, heal is a must have. Probably the only MUST have.

Also, I recommend NOT getting a sustaining focus. With the restrictions on them and the cost, you can better offset the penalties of sustaining a force 4 improved charisma spell by getting a rating 2 power focus than a rating 4 sustaining focus. YMMV.

Ummm... What?

Yea, nevermind.
The theory holds for increased initiative, but not increased CHA. In combat most of a mages rolls involve his magic stat, so you can make up the penalty, rather than trying to avoid it. Increased CHA has lots of uses outside of combat, so it's better to have a sustaining focus for it.
Sorry, got confused.

With unlimited resources of course, you'd love to be able to have sustaining foci for everything

You're going to have to provide some further detail on that...

Trust me on this, You cannot make up for Sustaining Penalties by just getting a higher rated Power Focus.
It may work for one or two things, but Sustaining Foci are there for a reason.

Can't. AFB at the moment. It came from a table discussion. The result was something along to lines of "since the spell force is limited to the rating of the sustaining foci, but the penalty is always -2, in many cases it's more efficient to get a smaller power focus to offset the penalty then to get a sustaining focus to avoid it. Also, when not sustaining, the power focus adds to everything you do magically."

But again, this was specifically about initiative enhancement, and it really did work out for the character in question.

You cannot use a Power Focus to sustain a spell. So there is never a time where the Power Focus is sustaining, since it is always "Not Sustaining."

Given that Power and Sustaining Foci are not mutually exclusive, the whole point doesn't really work.

I think he is saying the power focus cancels out any dice penalty due to sustaining when using magic for all others it won't IMO I'll pick up a sustaining focus or two. Since a r2 power focus costs more then a R3 sustaining focus. One spell the afore mentioned method seems to work well with statisticly speaking is deflection spl

Yea. Sorry. I didn't think anything else made sense, so I didn't mention it.
I know the difference between a power focus and a sustaining focus thank you very much.

Seeing as most of my mage builds have an R4 Power Focus in ADDITION to a couple of Sustaining Foci, I still don't quite get your point. They're expensive, but powerful.

That actually kind of hurt my feelings.

So you take multiple restricted gear?

Just one - I usually keep the Sustaining Foci at R3, occasionally with plans to get some higher rating ones as soon as I can.

Not sure why, but sorry about that. Looked like you were saying a Power Focus could be used for Sustaining.



That is exactly how it read.

Which I think was the point of the discussion we were having at my table. It takes a r4 sustaining focus to sustain improved initiative +3. Or you can use a rating 2 power focus to offset the -2 penalty.

Or you can be happy with a Rating 3 Sustaining Focus for the 3 IP you will get from the spell and have no penalty. You do not need 4IP for a Mage, ever. *shrug*

And besides, you are STILL suffering the sustaining penalty as compared to not sustaining the spell at all. Even with a R4 Power Focus, which now acts as only a R2 Power Focus becasue you lost 2 DP for the sustained Spell.

The list of things you don't NEED is very long, but I don't think it EVER includes extra initiative passes

I think his point was that, as a Mage, if your opposition ISN'T down by the 4th initiative pass, or you're not performing the Extraterritorial Tap Dance, then you're either dead or borked.

Indeed...

Seeing as I never have R4 initiative boosters out of the gate anyways, why does that matter? Better yet, if I do later get a Sustaining Focus for that Force of IR, I can use the other one for something else, which is an advantage other types don't get when upgrading their boosters.

On the other hand, any force rating of sustained spell will each be a -2 penalty for sustaining it. So that R2 power focus will be just as effective in offsetting the penalty of a F2 Barrier or Illusion, or whatever spell, as for a F6 of the same spell. When you're not sustaining anything, it'll be an additional +2 to your dice pool.

i.e.: If you want to sustain 3 Force 6 spells, would you be better priced at 3 R6 Sustaining foci, or a single R6 Power focus? Beyond that, it isn't even an exclusive choice; you could have an R6 Power focus, 3 R6 Sustaining Foci, and sustain 3 R6 Spells and 3 R8 spells if you wanted (and could manage it).

Once again, though, the two are not remotely mutually exclusive - it's not "Sustaining Focus or Power Focus", it's "Sustaining and Power, or just Power" - and if I want to have a handful of sustained spells, it is far, far better to have foci for the job than to take -6 for sustained spells.

Also, the sustaining penalty applies to almost everything. Power focus only "cancels" it with Magic actions. The -2 is also -2 to your Perception, your Initiative, your Defense, your social skills, etc.

what are the advantages and disadvantages of useing indirect combat spells and are there any pros to using them over the mana spells? or direct spells I mean

Indirect spells offer elemental effects, can target things you can't see, can benefit from a tacnet, and depending on the target may be more likely to be effective.

The "actual reason to use them" advantages are (for AE ones) hitting targets you can't see and (for all of them) if your dice pool is less than 18-ish, they are more effective/reliable against drones and vehicles.

Elemental effects and the tacnet are more nifty side benefits, but neither are worth the extra defense your target gets and the higher drain.

You don't usually want to pick Elemental spells over Direct spells - but if you are willing to devote the extra spell slots and are combat-focused, they have niche uses.

working on a mystic adept. higher powered game. just want opinions on what elemental aura you think would better match a charismatic elf shaman. with no education (grew up wild, recently events forced him into the cities (about 2 years ago) mentor spirit wolf, as wolves saved him. changeling class II surged- wolf traits. (also debating whether or not he should use a commlink the concept of the character would rather use his telepathy (mind-net extended) but I wonder just how much of a hindrance that would be.

If you're using Karmagen, initiate in chargen, choosing Ally Conjuration as both your metamagic and ordeal, then drop a chunk of karma on an awesome ally spirit. For the low, low price of 77 karma (just over 10% of your total), I built a Force 5 ally with a buttload of handy powers.

Behold! Corvina's (the spirit) statblock is at the bottom, cost breakdown at far right.

I like the idea, I will probably advice a friend on this who is wanting to play something similar but is set on fighting side by side his "summoned" mentor spirit. seems this is just what he needs to read. but this guy is more about him being awesome, not his spirit buddy .

People always seem to forget about Deepweed when talking about Sustaining spells. I tend not to get Sustaining Foci because they're so expensive and they're relatively lower-powered (since the spell now has a limiting factor - the Foci's Force); I just build a character that factors in certain penalties and is able to be awesome despite said penalties. It's worked quite well for me so far.

That aside, whenever someone mentions Ally spirits, a certain guide (Fun with Free/Ally Spirits!) written by a certain someone (me) comes to mind.

Personally I'd not do the wolf-man-mage. Wolf-raised shaman really are a dime a dozen. I highly suggest seeking something else out to make the character more original. Some ideas: statistically speaking, if you're not going to be an Infected mage (the most powerful available to PCs), an Eagle-shifter shaman (or like-minded tradition) is the second best out there. Pixies, naga, elves, and dwarves all make notable mages as well, with anything else coming in far last. Conceptually, maybe a street shaman who's taken to the ravens that are thriving in the sprawl, or a SURGEd frog-man - you know, with gills, fins, and deformity to resemble everyone's favorite creature.

eagle sounds good. but its for a better the world campaign lol. so toxic (or any derivative thereof are out) eagle sounds kinda cool. but wolves are my favorite animal next to panthers. and I already got a feline shifting druid XD. I also like the option of wolf tail, eyes, ears and fangs with the changeling trait. not that the eagle one doesnt sound cool. already have idea going in my head. think he will be an Egyptian tradition though not shamanic.

So if he goes Egyptian will he be a hound of Set instead of a wolf?

no no I meant for the eagle shifter lol.

For detective types I think Owl is good as is dark king though Dark kings penalty is kind of harsh. +2 dice to perception and assensing seem to fit an investigator really well.

This is new to me. Where can I learn more about this?

I suspect he was thinking of Psyche. Deepweed just gives you+1 willpower and forces you astrally active. Psyche reduces the sustaining penalty to -1 per spell. And they are in the main book.

Very true. That's what happens when I'm away from SR materials for four months.

Also, not all mages need a mentor spirit.

Yah but at 5 BP they are one hell of a bang for your buck.

They definitely can be...

I like them when they fit the character. The idea of a mentor spirit is fairly cool, but on the same token someone who pulls power down on his own without a crutch like a mentor spirit is also cool. At 5 BP they are an awesome buy mechanically especially the ones where the penalty is dude we have this rule that makes you roleplay your character the way you were going to roleplay him anyways, consider yourself penalized.

True...
"I don't always use a Magical Crutch, but when I do, I choose a Mentor Spirit"

The Most Magical Person in the World.