Shadows of Europe p. 110 Poland Timeline

That is 2012 though. Also, according to the Polish timeline Russia annexes Belarus in 2005 and starts the Border Wars. What I said before is from the section on European history in the first chapter of Shadows of Europe. Some of the information was not properly consolidated between different parts of the book.

Come to think of it shouldn't the old EuroSourcebook Project be found somewhere here on Dumpshock?

No. I am pretty bad with dates. Remember?

Okay. Names, dates. Anything else?

Maybe Faces and Numbers.

Numbers? Now I'm really disappointed

Elva airbase in Estonia is mentioned in Shadows of Europe or Corporate download. AFB right now, will check later or tomorrow.

As the person who came up with the Elva airbase in the first place, I can say it never was the intent. But that does not make it a silly idea. I always thought one of the book stated the aircraft were flying above the North Sea, but it seems only "Northern Europe" is mentionned. On the other hand, if the Swedish really thought they were BAE FA-38 and the German government blame the British, it's unlikely they were flying westward.

Personnally, I always wondered about the reason why David Gavilan, an US Air Force Major, who worked for the NSA and Echo Mirage, was doing in Stockholm less than 24 hours after Swedish radars detected the stealth bombers. "Sweden was a data haven" seems a bit short for such a coincidence.

Painted dragons is always a possibility...

SoE, p. 24 comment by €spion

Never noticed that, the Nanosecond Buyout was one day after the Nightwraith incident.

I try to keep those in mind... since you won't.

how come?

I . . probably . .

So far you seemed to be the geeky/maths/science guy to me (just like myself tbh) ... but ... well ... those need to be good with numbers

i like to tinker with stuff, but maths and numbers and me, we were never friends.
i was better in biology and languages. i have sam vimes feet basically.

i remember places and ways better than anything else.

Well I guess we can work together then at least, I deal with the science stuff and you tell me where the hell we are and where we need to go

And you know Discworld, which is definately a bonus

BTT: Has anyone ever played a campaign in the EuroWars Setting? Is it even possible to have a small Runner/SpecOps/whatever Team do something meaningful there?

There were no shadowrunners as such back then, but a campaign around a PMC, mercenary company or government/corporate black ops squad should be possible. Or you go full Only War and play a unit of line soldiers (I'd recommend adapting the buddy rules from Only War then).

I guess it wouldn't be much different from any military campaign, and minding that RL USSR had GRU long-distance recon cells prepared to demolish NATO HQs, infrastructure and politicians with extreme prejudice, including the use of tactical nuclear charges, I'd say a small unit of highly qualified operatives can very much affect the war's tide.

Expanding on this. How useful is Euro War Antiques in terms of playing a EuroWars campaign?

I'd say fairly, if you don't mind some of the stuff they introduced into the timeline. It gives a fairly clear timetable of events, "landmark" battles and even some names of commanding officers, units attached to a certain front, and the like. It also has a lot of equipment to use. Together with War and it's rules for military campaigns, I think this would be usable (some houserules against the worst absurdities of this system are probably necessary).

Hey, we said something nice.

*looks outside to make sure the sun isn't turning black and the zombie hordes aren't approaching*

Hey, I gave it 6 points. That's not that bad. Personally, I would add in at least the battle of Carinthia and the shenanigans from Chash Flow (F5 or what was it called?), possibly also the attempted coup in Austria by that guy who later became chancellor, but I've always liked the Austrian setting's crazyness, YMMV.

Okay, I had a chance to flip through the fluff part of it.

Euro Wars have never been a fav of mine in the setting, but the book is actually making them worse. The war strategy was apparently described by a timetraveler from WWI era, where a dug in infantry regiment is capable of stopping a tank army for a few months, forcing a river with complete air superiority takes a few months more, and a couple meters of concrete protect against whatever weaponry used against them. Reading it is like reading a Tom Clancy fanfiction with evil Russia Neo-Soviets sending dissidents to gulags (in 2030) and murdering POWs and civilians left and right, except worse. (Although I guess the gulag part is par for the course for racist CAS and magical Ireland and the rest of it). Clancy has actually heard about warfare developments since 1918. Even without nitpicking (like, why are all the Russian commanders have the surname Ivanov? Three Ivanovs in a single chapter - isn't that a bit much?), the fluff part is utterly disappointing. Utter absence of maps and, say, descriptions of the naval action in the Baltic and Northern Seas complete the picture of a sloppily done supplement.

On a side note: I've been rereading SoE, SoA and Germany Sourcebook for info on the EuroWars, and I can't seem to find where the terms "Neo-Soviets" or even just "Soviets" used in EWA comes from. Same with Politburo as a governing body. Elder books seem to address the country as Russia, and the governing body as National Soviet.

It's from the Vladivostok Part of Target:Smuggler Havens, iirc.

Had to recheck. Nope. "We", "Russia", "Russian".

"Neo-Soviet" could come from the National Soviet Reconstructionists. I think I have seen NSR misread as Neo-Soviet R. before. Also the label neo-soviet is not misapplied to Shadowrun's version of Russia.

I know of course that NSR only comes into power after the Euro Wars. But if you look at the SoA timeline there seems to be a political shift in Russia before the 2030. 2016 we have the assassination of _President_ Chelenko. 2026 Kropunin becomes _General Secretary_. This might not be intentional, maybe the two dates simply were taken from different sources. But it is the interpretation of the Almanac: "By 2026, the presidency had been abolished and Boris Kropunin became General Secretary." (swa.150) So one could infer that some earlier incarnation of the NSR or "neo-soviets" took hold in Russia after Chelenko's death and already started to transform the country and continued the process after the short interim of the Democratic Recovery Alliance.

Minding that National Soviet Reconstructionists as a name obviously refers to the name of the supreme governing body, National Soviet (with Soviet meaning Council, just like the historical Soviets did), I can't really see grounds for the link.
As for the country being neo-soviet: well, they're not communists, as far as I can see; they don't subscribe to ideas of federalism like Soviets did (and modern Russian Federation does), so, again, well...

Head of the National Soviet is called the General Secretary, as per SoA, so again I can't really see where Politburo comes from.

Actually I read NSR differently, namely as soviet reconstruction with a Russian-nationalist bend. I didn't make the connection with the National Supreme Soviet. So maybe you see how one could arrive at "neo-soviet". Apart from that the Russian Republic is meant to evoke Soviet times. As the SoA says "The general theme of Russia is a power play. The atmosphere is reminiscent of the Soviet Union during the mid-1980s". So even if some elements like communism or suppression of the Orthodox church are missing I think you can use the label neo-soviet, especially if you hold the view that ideology was secondary in superpower politics. But I would admit that it glosses a lot of things over. Furthermore since there is some indication that the "soviet reconstruction" (as per my reading) was going on before the start of the war, I guess it is not against Shadowrun canon to apply this to the Russian government back then.

No, that's new as far as I can tell. SoA mentions Politburo on p. 221 but only in reference to the actual USSR body. I guess, once you come to the equation Shadowrun Russia ~ Soviet Union -- which is a dangerous but I'm sure exactly the kind of quick simplification many people use -- more and more of the old concepts and labels are applied to the Russian Republic.

In the end I do agree with you, other Shadowrun sources have made an effort to still make a distinction between the Russian Republic and the Soviet Union even as they reimported a lot of (what an outside audience thinks are) soviet elements. Euro War Antiques on the other hand apparently fails to do that. Maybe we should ascribe this to the personal bias of Dr. Kelvin Mincy.

Yeah, I see. I doubt there's a way to know for sure now which was really meant.

I wouldn't argue against the terms "neo-soviet politics" or "soviet reconstructionism" or whatever used in regard to the thirties Russian state, but calling Russians Neo-Soviets outright left me puzzled where the term came from. And, besides, it's not just the good doctor, but shadowtalkers and pitch writers in the crunch part, as well.

You know the more I think about it, scratch this. I meant neo-soviet as one among several descriptors of the mood of the setting, but you were talking about an ingame term. I still haven't read Euro War Antiques but if neo-soviet is used consistently, I think that considerably changes the feel of the Russian Republic as it invokes a much stronger connection to the Soviet Union than has been made so far. But at least communism hasn't made a comeback, right?

So they all agree. I see...

Politburo kiiiiinda implies it has.

Neat book. Is it just me, or is the HK416 really, really good? All it really should have had was Extreme Environment (Desert) to represent the gas piston mechanism being more resistant to the infiltration of dirt and sand. Instead, it got 2 points of phantom recoil compensation.

O_o

Okay, I guess I will see once I read it.

Nah, I mean, the very mention and the constant usage of Politburo as the supreme governing body. Politburo is short for Political Bureau [of the Central Committee of the Communist Party], so it's a bit strange for a Politburo to exist without the Party.

Well, I guess so if you don't mind having an assault rifle with SMG ranges. Going from 550 meters extreme range to 150 meters is quite the cutback and having your short range cut fro 50 meters to 10 really sucks. I don't really get the point of these kind of guns, like this or the Onotari Kali.

Personally, I like the G3 better. A super cheap, reliable battle rifle for a handgun's price that will accept all except for electronics-based modifications and can be handmade easily, apparently.

It loses over open ground to a battle rifle, no question. However, indoors when recoil compensation matters more than range, which is where most shadowrunner gunfights are going to occur, the 416 punches well above its weight. The only problem is not being able to integrate all the features of a smartgun link. Instead, you just get to put on an adapter.

Essentially, they made an SMG not suck by letting it fire something other than pistol bullets.