Dumpshock Forums > 20 minute character challenge

thorya

Jun 6 2013, 12:31 PM

So based on discussion in one of the 5th edition threads, I got curious to see if I could make a runner in 20 minutes. Not the most optimized, ridiculous dice pool normal character you see on DS, just someone that was somewhat competent at what they do. It was interesting. Let's see what other people can make.

Here are the rules:
1. BP system following all the normal character creation rules available.
2. Standard 400 Point build.
3. You may use a program, such as a spreadsheet or chummer to assist you, but you have to start from scratch and not load any existing characters you may have or use them as cheat sheets.
4. You stop at 20 minutes and post whatever you've got. If you didn't get around to finishing something, then the character doesn't have it. If you have left over BP you lose it. ex. I forgot about contacts until the end and didn't have enough time to pull points out of other things before the limit, so Mr. Schmidt doesn't have any. Not the way I would normally run a character, but that's the game.
5. Every book is allowed.
6. You also need to buy gear and knowledge skills.
7. Post your character here, maybe highlight some highs and lows of the character.
8. We'll trust everyone to be honest about the time they took and whether they broke any rules or if something would be acceptable at their table, please no debates about whether something is allowed or not.

First Character- Mr. Schimdt, Dwarf Mage

[ Spoiler ]

Draco18s

Jun 6 2013, 01:13 PM

I'll see what I can pull off later today or tomorrow.

I think I built a drake mage in "about" 20 minutes way back in the day. Wasn't a character that was intended for play and was heavily based on a prior character (that is, a lot of the optimizations I'd worked out to make a viable drake character were re-utilized).

bannockburn

Jun 6 2013, 01:39 PM

Ork Samurai, rather complete, I'd say.
I could have used more time for fine tuning, but he's plenty playable.
Is he finished? No. No background, no nothing.

But he can take a punch and dish out some damage too, in most situations. I even cheesed a bit with the used alphaware, but he's nowhere near being optimized to hell and back.

Things I would have done better with more time:
- Squeeze some more points and add a martial art
- A secondary automatic weapon
- some mods on the bike

Start: 15:15h
Stop: 15:35h

[ Spoiler ]

bannockburn

Jun 6 2013, 02:14 PM

Addendum: I had 2195 Nuyen left for some goodies and used Chummer for generating him.
1200 Nuyen starting money after rolling for it

Of course, a street samurai is about the easiest character concept you can slap together.

Draco18s

Jun 6 2013, 02:19 PM

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 6 2013, 08:39 AM)

Ork Samurai, rather complete, I'd say.

Your original, unedited, post was more amusing.

Ork samurai, no stats, no gear, just a willpower (3), reaction (8 ), and IPs (2). Hehe. Oh, and his one quality.

bannockburn

Jun 6 2013, 02:21 PM

Typing it up actually took a lot longer than creating it. I hate the C&P dump that chummer creates

thorya

Jun 6 2013, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 6 2013, 09:21 AM)

Typing it up actually took a lot longer than creating it. I hate the C&P dump that chummer creates

Me too!

I'm impressed how you got all the equipment done.

I think that you probably play sam's regularly if you think they're easy to throw together. I usually do mages, so I thought it would be the easiest to throw together. Otherwise I would have had to look up 'ware because I only know about 1/4 of it off the top of my head. I'll be amazed if someone can do a rigger with a full load-out of modded drones. Not going to try myself, don't know them well enough.

bannockburn

Jun 6 2013, 02:42 PM

I actually only have 3 characters. 2 of them were converted from SR3 (adept and bioware infiltrator / thief) and the third one was created in karma with a few common house rules and is at best remotely related to a samurai, even if her name is Sam (story and stats found in signature link)

I have a lot of practice in Chummer though, since I usually create my NPCs in there. All kinds, not only sams.
Without background information to consider and getting it 'just right' it's rather easy just to click something playable together, but my usual process in creating a character involves a lot of getting it to fit the picture in my head.
Those are usually created in a more liberal system (such as the aforementioned karma generated character) and result in slightly better than standard BP stats. If someone were to use that system to minmax, horribleness would probably result

Seerow

Jun 6 2013, 03:28 PM

Are we also including backstory/descriptions, or just pure crunch?

I don't think I could make a full character, but if it's just the mechanical aspects I'd bet I could do it in 15. I'll probably take a shot at it once I'm caught up on my work.

thorya

Jun 6 2013, 03:49 PM

I usually can't do description/backstory, until I've got a group to play with and know how the character needs to fit in. So I just did crunch, and the original debate was whether you could make a character under various build systems and I assume that backstory will be about the same time regardless of the various systems, but there's nothing stopping people from doing backstory as well. I don't type fast enough to write a backstory in the time with any sort of depth, I could barely even get a crunch character done in 20.

Sunshine

Jun 6 2013, 04:31 PM

Challange accepted!

This is what I came up with in 20 Minutes:

[ Spoiler ]

2 Minutes for a Concept of an Bioware Infiltrator/ Former Company Man. The rest I had to hurry through therefor no real optimization.

The "hard" part was to get the gear right the first time and had I not used chummer, I would have had to flip through books to check essence cost or prices of gear. So with just a pencil and the book I think the sheer quantity of things you need stats for like Gear, Cyberware (Essence), Vehicles, Commlinks, etc. 20 Minutes is not easy. For a Magic Character I think I would have even needed more time as I would have wanted to weigh the pros and cons of spells, traditons, mentors (if any), etc.
I also found myself to be reserved about negative qualites as I knew to little about the character yet to make a good choice.

btw I dont know how to put a spoiler tag in bbcode, hence the post length

bannockburn

Jun 6 2013, 04:34 PM

The tag is

CODE

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sunshine

Jun 6 2013, 04:40 PM

thank you & edited

betterwatchit

Jun 6 2013, 10:51 PM

Just had a go at this using Hero Lab, and here's what came out:

QUOTE

Journeyman (Human Adept)
B 3, A 2/5, R 3, S 3, C 4, I 4, L 5, W 4, E 2, Ess 6, M 5, Init 7, IP 1
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 10/10
Novatech Airwave Commlink Condition Monitor: 10
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 9/9
Skills: Armorer 4, Athletics Group 4, Influence Group 4, Perception 5, Pistols 6, Unarmed Combat 6
Knowledge Skills: English N, Gang Turfs 4 (Seattle +2), Japanese 5, Runner Bars & Clubs 4 (Seattle +2), Seattle Armourers 4, Seattle Shadow Clinics 4 (Awakened-Friendly +2), Trid Shows 3
Qualities: Adept, Allergy, Common (Moderate): Soy, Analytical Mind, Hawk Eye, High Pain Tolerance (2), Nano Intolerance, Perceptive (1), Sensitive System
Adept Powers: Improved Ability (2): Pistols, Improved Ability (2): Unarmed Combat, Improved Sense: Audio Enhancement 3, Improved Sense: Flare Compensation, Improved Sense: Low-Light Vision, Improved Sense: Sound Dampening, Improved Sense: Vision Enhancement 3, Iron Will (+1 dicepool) (1), Mind Over Matter (Log -> Agi): Logic
Gear:
. . Glasses (4) with Camera (1), Image Link, Smartlink, Vision Magnification, Electronic
. . Greatcoat with Chemical Protection, Insulation
. . Rating 4 Fake SIN with Fake License: Predator (Rating 4), Fake License: Smartlink Glasses (Rating 4)
. . Novatech Airwave Commlink with Iris Orb Operating System
. . SecureTech Shin Guards
Weapons:
. . Ares Predator CW [Pistols, DV 6P vs. B-2, SA, RC 1, 15 ©] with Electronic Firing, EX-Explosive Rounds x30, Extreme Environment Modification 1: Cold Weather, Gecko Grip, Improved Range Finder, Personalized Grip, Silencer, Smartgun System, Internal, Spare Clips
. . Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 4P vs. I]
. . Hardliner Gloves [Unarmed, DV 3P vs. I]
. . Unarmed Strike [Unarmed, DV 2S vs. I]

I swear, the CW weapons are a modder's dream! They have two relevant mods for shadowrunners built into them without taking up any slots! An Extreme Environment mod is just a bonus!

Seerow

Jun 7 2013, 01:24 AM

Okay here's what I came up with. I was aiming for 15 minutes, wound up going to 18, but I wasted a couple of minutes fixing settings in chummer that were modified for house rules (ie I couldn't figure out why I had so much bp left with so many skills... then remembered I had half cost skills on. Then also ran into the problem of having money at 1.5k instead of 5k per rating, which was giving me trouble)

To make it go quick I dumped a lot into attributes and skills to save time on buying out gear. If I was going more in depth I may have done otherwise, but I'm pretty sure I hit all my bases and made a playable character. Obviously archetype is a mundane combat guy.

[ Spoiler ]

Edit: Just realized I didn't include the knowledge skills in my write-up, but they were in the character builder. It was real simple, speaks english, Seattle at 6, Underworld at 4, Gangs at 3, Bars and Clubs took up whatever was left (I think it was 2, but I've closed the program so I'm posting from memory)

toturi

Jun 7 2013, 01:38 AM

QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 6 2013, 08:31 PM)

Here are the rules:
1. BP system following all the normal character creation rules available.
2. Standard 400 Point build.
3. You may use a program, such as a spreadsheet or chummer to assist you, but you have to start from scratch and not load any existing characters you may have or use them as cheat sheets.
4. You stop at 20 minutes and post whatever you've got. If you didn't get around to finishing something, then the character doesn't have it. If you have left over BP you lose it. ex. I forgot about contacts until the end and didn't have enough time to pull points out of other things before the limit, so Mr. Schmidt doesn't have any. Not the way I would normally run a character, but that's the game.
5. Every book is allowed.
6. You also need to buy gear and knowledge skills.
7. Post your character here, maybe highlight some highs and lows of the character.
8. We'll trust everyone to be honest about the time they took and whether they broke any rules or if something would be acceptable at their table, please no debates about whether something is allowed or not.

3. Can you more than 1 program? I find chummer's gear system easier to navigate but the spreadsheet's system easier more most other things.
5. Assume that e-books/e-publications are allowed. Can I use characters published within those books as cheats?

If you have the character already pre-gen-ed in your head, meaning if I did everything in my head, then I sat down and put it down on paper, does it count? If I dreamt the character up at night, and in the morning, woke up and wrote it all down, does it still count?

Neurosis

Jun 7 2013, 01:49 AM

QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 6 2013, 07:31 AM)

So based on discussion in one of the 5th edition threads, I got curious to see if I could make a runner in 20 minutes. Not the most optimized, ridiculous dice pool normal character you see on DS, just someone that was somewhat competent at what they do. It was interesting. Let's see what other people can make.

Here are the rules:
1. BP system following all the normal character creation rules available.
2. Standard 400 Point build.
3. You may use a program, such as a spreadsheet or chummer to assist you, but you have to start from scratch and not load any existing characters you may have or use them as cheat sheets.
4. You stop at 20 minutes and post whatever you've got. If you didn't get around to finishing something, then the character doesn't have it. If you have left over BP you lose it. ex. I forgot about contacts until the end and didn't have enough time to pull points out of other things before the limit, so Mr. Schmidt doesn't have any. Not the way I would normally run a character, but that's the game.
5. Every book is allowed.
6. You also need to buy gear and knowledge skills.
7. Post your character here, maybe highlight some highs and lows of the character.
8. We'll trust everyone to be honest about the time they took and whether they broke any rules or if something would be acceptable at their table, please no debates about whether something is allowed or not.

First Character- Mr. Schimdt, Dwarf Mage

[ Spoiler ]

Wow, this sounds incredibly stressful actually. Still, kind of a neat idea. I might do one if I was more lacking in stuff to do than time to do stuff in...alas.

Shinobi Killfist

Jun 7 2013, 03:47 AM

I was the one who spawned the discussion to some degree. My 17 minute character. Quick concept super agile asthmatic elf.I wasted a minute or two dithering on making him a changeling or not to get the max 15 agility, in the end decided not to. I just don't like them. I'm sure I may have missed a thing or 2, but we are not the most detail oriented gaming group and my tendency is to pick up things like armor mods in play. I like refining the professionalism of his attitude, gear, plans in play instead of having a end character from the start.

[ Spoiler ]

Critias

Jun 7 2013, 04:44 AM

Caveat: I'm breakin' the rules! He's not an SR4A character built with 400 BP. It also took me just a tinch over 20 minutes, because I had to stop and Facebook my boss when I saw him come on-line, to make sure it was okay for me to do this.

So, here's an SR5 guy I just threw together! My NDA's got me glossing over some of his chargen details, and I'm erring on the side of not giving away too many details -- costs for qualities, what exactly some qualities do, details on adept power, stats for gear, etc -- but I just though it'd be a fun way to spend 20 minutes.

For wholly unrelated reasons I've got Ancients on the brain right now, so I just went for a generic "street kid joins the gang when his adept powers make him surprisingly badass" angle. Also, since I heard a sequel is in the works, I was playing some Mirror's Edge earlier, so when I had a few points lying around I decided to make him kind of free-runny (so he can jump out of nowhere like a friggin' anime character). Elfy McStabbity here isn't the brightest bulb on the streets, but he's a hard-driving, hard-partying, sword-swingin', badass. I'm not sure how well received he'd be in your average black trenchcoat game, but it's the first concept that jumped into my head when the clock started ticking, so oh well. He's what you get!

[ Spoiler ]

EDIT: typo!

Shinobi Killfist

Jun 7 2013, 05:12 AM

That is a pretty decent list of adept powers for 6 magic. I'm interested to see the cost of the powers. Hopefully reaser #4.

Makki

Jun 7 2013, 06:17 AM

the challenge would be even more interesting, if someone on this board presented the class/archetype with some character features. Because I can manage a 20minutes build of a character that I thought up myself as I already know what to get him and most of the time is invested in finding the stuff. But if a concept is new, that's a different kttle of fish

Garvel

Jun 7 2013, 06:23 AM

@ thorya:
No native language? Poor Mr. Smith

@ Critias:
No operating system or programs on the comlink? is that on purpose?

Shinobi Killfist

Jun 7 2013, 06:49 AM

QUOTE (Garvel @ Jun 7 2013, 01:23 AM)

@ thorya:
No native language? Poor Mr. Smith

@ Critias:
No operating system or programs on the comlink? is that on purpose?

I can't speak for Critias but in SR4 until the group had a tacnet or something set up only the decker and riggers did that, the rest of us had junk comlinks to fly under the radar by broadcasting, but it had nothing on it to hack etc. IN SR5 with cyberdecks coming back I suspect comlinks will be more like the pocket secretary of 1-3e, no real programs etc just a phone, matrix device.

RHat

Jun 7 2013, 09:02 AM

QUOTE (Makki @ Jun 7 2013, 12:17 AM)

the challenge would be even more interesting, if someone on this board presented the class/archetype with some character features. Because I can manage a 20minutes build of a character that I thought up myself as I already know what to get him and most of the time is invested in finding the stuff. But if a concept is new, that's a different kttle of fish

One option would be to put some loose character descriptions together - perhaps descriptions with 3 elements, setting out how the character should be but leaving a lot of room to work with?

Sunshine

Jun 7 2013, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 7 2013, 06:44 AM)

So, here's an SR5 guy I just threw together!

I am sooo dying from envy right now.

Cain

Jun 7 2013, 09:49 AM

I should point out that the original 20 minute challenge was supposed to be longhand, but I'm interested to see what people come up with anyway.

Sunshine

Jun 7 2013, 10:28 AM

QUOTE

...was supposed to be longhand...

what does that mean? (no sarcasm i am not a native speaker and just don't get it!)

RHat

Jun 7 2013, 10:36 AM

QUOTE (Sunshine @ Jun 7 2013, 04:28 AM)

what does that mean? (no sarcasm i am not a native speaker and just don't get it!)

"Longhand", in this context, refers to writing/typing it out by hand, from scratch, without shortcut or abbreviation.

thorya

Jun 7 2013, 01:20 PM

QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 6 2013, 08:38 PM)

3. Can you more than 1 program? I find chummer's gear system easier to navigate but the spreadsheet's system easier more most other things.
5. Assume that e-books/e-publications are allowed. Can I use characters published within those books as cheats?

If you have the character already pre-gen-ed in your head, meaning if I did everything in my head, then I sat down and put it down on paper, does it count? If I dreamt the character up at night, and in the morning, woke up and wrote it all down, does it still count?

3. I don't see why not.
5. You could, but that's not really in the spirit of the exercise.

If if will make you will feel better, give yourself a 15 second penalty for each minute you spent thinking up the character and pre-gening it in your head. And a 5 minute penalty for any dream based characters.

thorya

Jun 7 2013, 01:23 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 7 2013, 04:49 AM)

I should point out that the original 20 minute challenge was supposed to be longhand, but I'm interested to see what people come up with anyway.

Interesting, don't think I could do that one either, but with a good character sheet printed beforehand (with skills and spells, etc. listed so I could just tick them off) I could probably get close to a whole character made. I've never found the math part hard, just finding things in the darn book.

StealthSigma

Jun 7 2013, 01:26 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 06:36 AM)

"Longhand", in this context, refers to writing/typing it out by hand, from scratch, without shortcut or abbreviation.

Longhand would mean without using any pre-existing aides. No chummer. It would mean you have the books and a piece of paper (or pre-printed official character sheet) or a blank spreadsheet (or a formatted spreadsheet that doesn't provide any options for you).

toturi

Jun 7 2013, 02:25 PM

QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 7 2013, 09:20 PM)

5. You could, but that's not really in the spirit of the exercise.

You should know that I do not care about the spirit, only the letter.

thorya

Jun 7 2013, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 7 2013, 09:25 AM)

You should know that I do not care about the spirit, only the letter.

In that case, this thread is brought to you by the letter F and number 12.

Now I want to make Oscar the Grouch. A street level ork fixer that operates out of a garbage can and has an enforcer named Big Bert.

StealthSigma

Jun 7 2013, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 7 2013, 10:46 AM)

In that case, this thread is brought to you by the letter F and number 12.

Now I want to make Oscar the Grouch. A street level ork fixer that operates out of a garbage can and has an enforcer named Big Bert.

Why not an enforcer named Big Bird?

Critias

Jun 7 2013, 03:12 PM

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jun 7 2013, 10:06 AM)

Why not an enforcer named Big Bird?

With Raptor Legs. And an Ally Spirit that looks like a wooly mammoth.

Sunshine

Jun 7 2013, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 12:36 PM)

"Longhand", in this context, refers to writing/typing it out by hand, from scratch, without shortcut or abbreviation.

Despite thinking of myself as beeing quite knowledgeable about the 4th Edition, I think I could not do a character in 20 Minutes. Maybe a mundane face with not a lot of equippment, but anything else I'd waste a lot of time flipping through pages...

btw Thanks for explaining "longhand" I'll try to use it so it sticks...

...hmm, "Longhand" maybe an Elven Face High stakes Negotiator...

Cain

Jun 7 2013, 07:38 PM

QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 7 2013, 06:23 AM)

Interesting, don't think I could do that one either, but with a good character sheet printed beforehand (with skills and spells, etc. listed so I could just tick them off) I could probably get close to a whole character made. I've never found the math part hard, just finding things in the darn book.

That was part of the point. Even a few years ago, SR4.5 had way too many supplements to make character creation run smoothly. I'm encouraged by the SR5 character, but I'm still wanting to try it for myself.

RHat

Jun 7 2013, 07:40 PM

I don't think a 20 minute challenge is a good way to make that point, Cain - I'm not sure if I can do that in ANY system I've played, and I don't think I take all that long to make characters.

Cain

Jun 7 2013, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 12:40 PM)

I don't think a 20 minute challenge is a good way to make that point, Cain - I'm not sure if I can do that in ANY system I've played, and I don't think I take all that long to make characters.

I can, in several. I used to be able to make gear-light characters in 20 minutes in SR3, for example; I can do it in Savage Worlds, Wushu takes me seconds (although that's a bit of an unfair comparison), Feng Shui, and MHR.

If we expand that list to include programs, D&D 4e would be faster than SR4.5, largely because the builder is so good. They have even more supplementitis than Shadowrun does, though, so that's why the comparison is unfair. It becomes about who has the best builder program, and not whose system is actually faster and easier to use.

RHat

Jun 7 2013, 08:13 PM

DnD 4e is faster with the builder because the range of options is much smaller for any given character.

And I'll rephrase: I don't htink I can build a character I'm satisfied with longhand in any system I've played.

StealthSigma

Jun 7 2013, 08:13 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 7 2013, 04:00 PM)

I can, in several. I used to be able to make gear-light characters in 20 minutes in SR3, for example; I can do it in Savage Worlds, Wushu takes me seconds (although that's a bit of an unfair comparison), Feng Shui, and MHR.

If we expand that list to include programs, D&D 4e would be faster than SR4.5, largely because the builder is so good. They have even more supplementitis than Shadowrun does, though, so that's why the comparison is unfair. It becomes about who has the best builder program, and not whose system is actually faster and easier to use.

I think a gear light character is still quite doable in SR4.5 even considering supplements. The biggest, I feel, aspects that the supplements added is mostly gear/augmentation and to a lesser extent qualities. I think 20 minutes is doable assuming you have the concept in mind. Attributes, skills, and a allocation of resources for gear can be done in about 15 minutes, I would say. When I optimize, and thus raise my creation time, it's usually a balance where I increase augments in order to lower attribute needs or be able to lower the value of skills.

For example, I could expend 3 more karma to raise my muscle toner from 2 -> 3 which would let me know my five combat skills and infiltration each by 1 point and gain back 46 karma or I could lower my agility from 6 to 5 and gain back 30 karma. Stuff like that.

Draco18s

Jun 7 2013, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 03:13 PM)

DnD 4e is faster

4E is also very cookie cutter.

In fact, with reasonable odds I can guess any given character's ability choices knowing only their highest stat (which stat) and their class.

RHat

Jun 7 2013, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 7 2013, 02:25 PM)

4E is also very cookie cutter.

In fact, with reasonable odds I can guess any given character's ability choices knowing only their highest stat (which stat) and their class.

That was precisely my point. It seems clear to me that faster doesn't mean better.

Draco18s

Jun 7 2013, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 03:28 PM)

That was precisely my point. It seems clear to me that faster doesn't mean better.

Conversely, slower is not better.
But if you think so, I have a game for you. It's called World Tree. A single character is expected to take a person 8 hours to build.

StealthSigma

Jun 7 2013, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 04:28 PM)

That was precisely my point. It seems clear to me that faster doesn't mean better. When I did play it, the mechanics weren't what made it fun for me.

System mastery speeds up character creation by making you aware of what not to do. This shortcircuits it by making you not need to consider the decision of these options. Additionally, it lets you more accurately and quickly assess and come to a decision on the options that you don't know aren't bad options.

RHat

Jun 7 2013, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 7 2013, 02:31 PM)

Conversely, slower is not better.
But if you think so, I have a game for you. It's called World Tree. A single character is expected to take a person 8 hours to build.

Firmly establishing that chargen speed is a poor metric.

Stealth: The speed of 4e chargen has nothing to do with system mastery; it is purely a function of having a limited pool of options available.

StealthSigma

Jun 7 2013, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 04:33 PM)

Firmly establishing that chargen speed is a poor metric.

Stealth: The speed of 4e chargen has nothing to do with system mastery; it is purely a function of having a limited pool of options available.

Speed is going to be relative. Even in a fast system like 4e system mastery is still going to enable to you to create the character faster than one without. For some systems, like 4e, system mastery won't provide a large decrease in time but for other system the decrease will be more significant.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 7 2013, 08:43 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 7 2013, 02:25 PM)

4E is also very cookie cutter.

In fact, with reasonable odds I can guess any given character's ability choices knowing only their highest stat (which stat) and their class.

Indeed... Not a Fan of DnD 4th (nor 5th for that matter).

Draco18s

Jun 7 2013, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 7 2013, 03:43 PM)

Indeed... Not a Fan of DnD 4th (nor 5th for that matter).

D&D 4 would have been a great game if it had not been called "D&D 4."

Sure, it has its problems, but there was too much expectation.

StealthSigma

Jun 7 2013, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 7 2013, 04:46 PM)

D&D 4 would have been a great game if it had not been called "D&D 4."

Sure, it has its problems, but there was too much expectation.

Wait a minute. Are you admitting that how a customer feels matters?