Just read Rigger 4. The DOUGHNUT section is GENIUS!

I'd be highly amused to see someone establish a place for the mounties in the Sixth World.

cautiously optimistic.

there are things that i'm already expecting to houserule, but they don't look too widespread... so long as they're fairly isolated, i can cross them out and pretend they don't exist, since i'm not part of any living campaign type things.

that said, my interest in further books could very suddenly spike downwards if those things i don't like prove to be too integrated to just remove and ignore.

As seen in the poll, some 40% of the users of a dedicated fan forum are pessimistic about the new edition.

Nearly 60% are optimistic! almost 90% are probably going to buy it!

No need to be such a negative nelly.

-DrZ

56% are very or cautiously optimistic. 44% are bearish or opt out. That every bearish pollster will buy SR5 is a ... bold assumption. Positive thinking can lead to selective blindness.

I had different numbers on the 1st one; I presume some more people voted. I'm (obviously) in the "excited" camp. My point was more that you can interpret the poll results in a number of ways; I was using hyperbole to show there was a way to read the numbers from the other extreme. Claiming that "40% of a fan driven forum" is a bit disingenuous as well; we've got ~100 votes? The forum has 15,000 registered members, and my guess would be at least a few thousand semi-active members (more will come trickling back as the new edition comes out). I am surprised it appears to be split so down the middle, but I think this is probably the most critical of the forums discussing SR5. DS has a tendency to cry wolf quite a bit; I sincerely doubt some of the issues brought up are going to be as bad as I've read on here. Time will tell!

-DrZ

Take this with whichever grain size of salt you like, but I'm one of the persons who voted with "won't buy". And that's coming from someone who wears one of these rare T-Shirts "Running the Shadows since '89" quite often and who has - despite of not liking the world changes of SR4 - bought at least the core rule books of every edition so far ... and that's not just because I do have my reservations about certain rule and fluff aspects, but most certainly because of how persons who are involved with making the product have presented themselves right here on this board. And by that I don't mean just the one you got himself a little "slap" by one of the mods.

That's interesting. To be honest, given the amount of potshots and random sniping from some of the more opinionated forum members I've felt the people involved with the actual product are behaving admirably. I will fully admit I have not been following every instance of every thread, however; so they might have called someone a communist or something when I wasn't paying attention.

-DrZ

Then Neurosis' little free-form staging of Offending the Audience must have slipped by you?

Since Cochise specifically said it wasn't just Neurosis, I'm wondering what any/all of the rest of us have done to be that offensive, personally. FWIW, I certainly apologize if anything I've said or done as come off that poorly.

I'm curious: Were there any polls when SR4 was shiny and new that said how many folks weren't buying it? Was there anybody who said they wouldn't buy SR4 but did in the end?

Nothing I remember (save understandable frustration once, to which I added, and for which I apologize). Myself, I largely think of Neurosis and a few of Aaron's comments in the preview threads.


There's a legacy thread dedicated to that on page 2 or 3.

I totally forgot about that! It did indeed slip by. Although remembering it now (and it's possible he went completely off the rails in his responses), I recall him basically stating "It's in there because it's cool". I don't really have an issue with that interpretation.

However, I am more than willing to admit that directly telling people that their opinions are incorrect might be considered tacky.

-DrZ

Yeah, you should go read it. It was essentially a full-page screed of 'if you don't like it, go die in a tire fire, All True Fans love it!'

Rather pathetic coming from someone Catalyst is actually paying to create content for the game.

He posted two follow-ups late in the thread, too.

The thread in question : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39050

The OP alone is one of those things I was really tempted to forward to the guys at Catalyst, with a 'really, you hired this guy?' attached but that seems like a bit too far.

I will be sure to include it when I do write CGL and Topps another letter.

Such things are always rather embarrassing, yeah.

I put myself in the won't-be-buying category because I haven't heard anything positive yet. Beyond that, the reasoning behind my pessimism is extremely simple: for all its flaws, the last Shadowrun title I found to be routinely useful was Street Magic, thanks largely to its riffing on astral topography, visibility and security. Everything afterwards has varied from inessential and safely excised to speed up chargen (Augmentation, Arsenal, setting splats) to incompetent (Runner's Companion, War!). I'm not opposed to change, really--there's a lot about SR4 that I'd like to see get a do-over--but so far, Catalyst's changes don't sound like they address any of my concerns. That's a real issue here given that frankly, I'm on the cusp of more or less aging out of the hobby and need good reasons as to why I should rock the boat by making people familiarize themselves with new material the few times I do get a chance to run a game. I understand that it's fun to give people crap about fearing change, but at the same time I think it's reasonable to say that companies aren't entitled to my money in perpetuity, particularly when I haven't found their products particularly necessary over the last 5 or 6 years.

I am excited for SR5, and I will be personally flogging books to hundreds of people.

My vote should count for at least a couple hundred books.

Don't say stuff like that! I'm going to remain a boy forever!

DrZ

Indeed, there's only one real way out, in a box or on a pyre. at least if we are to learn anything from Gygax's example.

I only bought SR4 about 2.5 years ago after saying that I wouldn't buy it due to the complete overhaul done on the mechanics of the game. After looking into the "new" (read SR4) system it looked easier to bring in new players, that is the only reason I bought it, however now I actually like the simplicity that is SR4 (though I still miss the skill web). I'll be buying SR5 as soon as I am able to (the combo PDF+book).

By the way, I still have my hard-back ShadowRun book (1st edition) sitting on my book shelf, and many copies of nearly every SR book since (except some of the SR4 ones). No missions/modules however, I've always free-formed my games.

I'm bearish, my gm has a copy (Lurkeroutthere) and he's let me work on a character already. Overall I like a good deal of the concepts, just not the way their implemented (looking at you wireless bonuses) and are already kicking around house rules.

Will I buy my own copy? Yes, because despite my dislike for some of the new rules, setting changes, plot lines, I'm still a fan, and the game will need my (our) continued support to continue.

The game will continue if CGL loses the license, most likely. Just saying.

Hey, not like CGL hasn't pulled pretty much every possible bad option a publisher can so far, right?

Actually, I don't think whoever got a "slap" from the moderator can possibly be referring to me, because I have received no communication from mods of any kind.



That is the most ridiculous interpretation of anything I have ever seen. I do not even like SR5 very much. I probably won't even be playing it any time in the near future.

I think it's possible to have true fans of SR that like SR5, true fans of SR that hate SR5, and everything in between. None of them need to go die in a tire fire.

All I was saying is that people who don't think cyberware hacking is cool are silly, but even they don't need to go die in a fire.

This is a really EXTREMELY inaccurate interpretation of my post and I find it ENORMOUSLY offensive. I am not an apologist for SR5. I am certainly not telling anyone to go die in a fire.

<\FOXNEWS>

For your pleasure:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1238761

This from your extremely offensive trollthread, where the poll options were flamebait you didn't even bother to conceal.

Let me help you.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1238761



So, yes, slab - not a ban or warning.

SYL

I'm sure CGL appreciates all the drum rolling for their product. I mean, I'm on the fence myself, but ... if I was line dev I'd be pretty angry by now. Just saying.


That really doesn't make it better. That isn't different from the bad form you showed in that first post. Everyone who disagrees with you on cyberware hacking is stupid. We understood that the first time. It's still a dick thing to say.

Cautiously optimistic. I'm probably going to buy the PDF, and pending review, errata, and testing, I may get myself a hard copy of it.

So far the fundamentals sound at very least adequate and at most encouraging. One aspect of it seems off, and could be house-ruled easily, if nigh completely, to fit with extant setting information already provided to us and a little simple, inevitable ingenuity.

The thing is, it's not related to SR5 in any way. So minding the current context of discussion, the only possible way to understand your post is "people who don't think cyberware hacking as it is implemented in SR5 is cool are silly".
And yeah, since there's a number of easily visible problems with cyberware hacking as we so far know it, a lot of people on this board are silly.

Ignorance - as usual - is bliss ...



I got that the first time you sent the message and "silly" was most certainly intended to be received in to most positive way one can think of, right? Especially with all that tantrum of yours around that message?



Some would call that unintentional, yet bitter sweet irony.
Let me put it this way: You have just further enforced my decision of no longer spending money on the product you're trying to make some of your living with. And unlike the lesson hermit mentioned in regards of how bad the quality of some of your work is, this particular lesson is totally restricted to personal levels. But looking at the way you handled the issue so far, I can clearly envision you laughing at my decision.

ATTEMPT AT REPLYING #3:

@Tzeentch: LOL.

@Apple: Thanks for bringing that to my attention, just found it myself actually.

@Bannockburn: I didn't intend to troll, flamebait, or offend. Maybe trolling is in the eye of the beholder, but it's also about intention, and none of those things were my intention. I just think hacking cyberware is cool, and I was genuinely confused that anyone didn't. A lot of that has been clarified--people seem to have more of a problem with the wireless boni not making sense in general. In an odd way, the thread has served its purpose, but I feel people made entirely too much of my tone, and took it the wrong way. Se la vie.

@hermit



Well, I hope he isn't, but if he is angry at me for expressing my personal opinion on this forum, that's between me and him and you don't enter into it. My contract was to write for SR5, not to promote/praise it, particularly not dis-ingenuously. I don't think that SR5 is terrible, I don't think it's amazing, I don't think it's perfect, I don't think it's horrible. I think it has its merits and flaws like any other edition, it's good ideas, it's bad ideas, it's good and bad implementations.



We come from INCREDIBLY different realities/dimensions if you think saying that someone is silly is even remotely comparable to saying they should DIE IN A FIRE.

@Cochise:



Actually, I find it upsetting and disturbing, as I find your evaluation of the quality of my work. That probably surprises you a lot, because it is the opposite of laughing. I am sorry that you found my silly thread about hacking cyberware to be so inordinately offensive. I felt like I put as many clear indications of its joking tone in there as possible, but it was clearly taken the wrong way by the majority of readers, which is a shame. It is, however, not the first time that I have been less than successful making friends and influencing people on the internets. It always hurts, but I will try and move on.

I am sorry, but ...


SYL

srs bsns indeed.

I love internet melodrama. It's so over the top and ridiculous.

That settles it.

I'm buying three copies.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

And I dislike your general tendancy of mocking or even going ad hominem. This thread openly asked for opinions concerning our future decisions on buying the product. I provided mine and responed to follow up questions concerning my reasoning. It may be your perception that it's your right to ridicule me due to these reasons, by calling them being melodramatic / over the top / ridiculous, but you're just the next impolite person whose behaviour would influence my decision on buying a certain product if you were associated to it in a comparable way as Neurosis is.

Oh and don't be too sure that your little joke about buying one or two more copies than you actually need would actually compensate for what I have decided not to buy. You could end up spending more money than you actually can afford to keep true to what you deem so damn funny now.

And now I can't take Dumpshock seriously any more.

You took Dumpshock seriously?!?

Then I think the mods are being a little too lenient on you. Even if it wasn't your intent, your first post (and a follow up much later in the thread) was really, really, really, really bad form. And if you're a paid writer whose intent doesn't match what you actually wrote, I'd be worried. If your intent DID match what you wrote, I'd be ashamed.


I'll try to be friendly here. I find your tone generally very condescending and grating. This latest post of yours sounds almost like a troll. I know this is something I struggle with, making sure my tone comes across as intended on a message board. Maybe you could dial it back a little?

Man, you know something's gone horribly wrong when bannockburn and I agree on anything.

Guys, there's already a thread for picking on Neurosis. Can we keep it there and focus on picking on SR5 in this one?

For the record, I don't see anything coming out for SR5 that's really going to rock my socks (not that I've been tracking it that closely). I suspect a lot of the middle-aged guard (the die-hard SR4 players) won't change over, but that it will bring in a lot of casual SR gamers and a lot of new gamers, and that profits from SR5 will be higher than what profits would have been from continuing SR4.

*puts the Neurosis Pinatas and sticks back behind the table* Awwwwww.... ok


For Mages I can see why they had to rejuggle things a bit , just wish they had just changed the damage but left drain alone , a double kick is still a double kick. *chuckles*

We will see how well it plays out ,especially in bigger fights and once the new preparations and the rest come out. Worst case scenario is just retweak things.

Imagine it wont be so bad as skills and magic climbs, the early days just means being cagey and use other tools as well.

I just love that that you really didn't even read your own"this is totally not a troll thread", that pretty much tells us all we ever need to know about you.

This should worry Jason even more, because it calls into question your professional capabilities.

If you want to yell at Neurosis please do it with pm's or something. As to Season 5 I am more optimistic than I was when this thread was started as some of the Catalyst folks seem to be working hard to fix a lot of the problems before the actual release.

A forum does not get a name like dumbshock without a reason, does it.


You see, that's the whole problem: a lot of changes coming in the new edition seem to address some genuine issues with the fourth edition, like uberpowered direct spells, useless mystic adepts, and samesuch. It's just that for some reason those welcome changes come with the rulings that are hard to imagine being written without some very serious synthetic stuff involved.


"Calls into question"? I don't think so.


What makes you believe anything in the end product can possibly be changed, when so far the stated position is "we have decided like this, deal with it, whatever"?

I have to admit that a simple "We were wrong about DNI links not being able to active/deactivate ware/gear (like Bipod) as a free action. Per official Errata, you can use either a DNI link or a matrix connection to active/deactivate ware/gear as a free action." would make me feel 100% better.

I really like most of what I've seen about SR5 and that would convince me that the kinks would get worked out.

But it might be like putting blood on the water of a shark tank.