Sure, though it was tied to Knowledge skills, perception, Combat Pool, memory, etc. It's a little too omni-purpose for my tastes.

That's cause of all the money we've spent on Season Tickets all these years. Gotta support that team, ya know!

The GT philosophy. Go Last, Go Once. Leave an impression.

The SR5 Initiative system has several plus for me.

Enhanced Characters go first more often.
The initiative system has more luck involved so things will be tenser.
The new -5 init defensive options and the one free action per pass give the players more to do.
And the non enhanced can often get two passes.
Plus if you want to attach more than one opponent you have to split your dice.


Makes like much easier for the GM.
The slower players will get in to the action more.

And the Mooks will take a little longer to mow down.

Watching the Street Samurai and the Gunslinger Adept drop a total of 6 Mooks each in one turn can make keeping things challenging difficult.

And with the increase in cyberware, an SR5 GM needs all the help he can get.

That is true...

Indeed... GT and Oni... The Dynamic Duo of Finishing Fights...

In MY Experience, Longer fights tend to hamstring the PC's far more than the GM. The GM already has numbers on his side, for the most part. The only things going for the PC's are their [hopefully] Professionalism and their Speed. The longer you get tied up in a fight, the more likely you are to end up on the short end of the stick.

As it should be.
It is the GM's job to keep the game exciting.
Being able to deliver on a threat without using human waves improves the experience.

Uhm, what?
Thats at least not my reason, why I gave them money...

I keep seeing this brought up, and honestly, it's just a garbage argument. The there are only two opportunities to "protect" your gear for even high level operators, three if you count putting it on a host, which i will admit I still am not entirely sure how hosts are supposed to work. I will need to reread that section again.

You run your gear in hidden mode, congratulations who ever is running hidden can now make opposed tests involving their intelligence stat (not their skill) to defend against being found,a t the cost of taking -2 to all their matrix actions. Better slave everything to the mages high rating comlink. Then when an attack actually occurs someone can take -10 initiative to throw their willpower into the defense for the device. Wooooo.

I guess the real problem for me is this, someone bricks your enhanced vision goggles, or even your gun you can always go to a non-wireless backup. But if someone bricks your cybereyes, hey your blind, but to actually have those eyes be better then a normal persons (that is to say bonus dice as opposed to limit cap increase) you need to go wireless.

So you need to go wireless to get back to where you were in 4th, and that's a straight across the board nerf. Sure if your GM never has hackers come after your gear I'm sure you can be effective, but if he runs the book straight and yoru going against corporate level oppositions spiders (who won't accrue Overwatch Score) should be just as common if not more so then background count.

Parity can always been hand crafted by the GM, but the book starts wared characters off at a disadvantage. True it is a lot harder for a mage to drop a whole room in one spell, but it's still possible and there are many things magic can do other then straight damage.

If nothing else a working matrix system and a quicker cleaner combat system are not to be sneezed at.
Character creation looks a lot better.

Yeah there are a few rough edges.
So house rule them until the dust clears.
I expect the support core rule books to help balance things out.

I'm not getting rid of skinlinks.
I'm running an experienced team and I doubt they will have that much trouble with ware getting bricked.

All in all SR5 looks to be a better version of 4th with some of the cooler 3rd edition elements brought back (Deckers forever!).

Shadowrun has never needed human waves to keep the game exciting. *shrug*

That may be true for most editions, but you probably agree that 4th edition is the exception, and did require human waves, right?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Exactly and SR5 makes it more so.

Ummm, No. No human waves needed at all. I really do not agree with you on that.

The ONLY time I have seen Human Waves in SR4 is in the Artifacts Module (Dusk, I think it was) where the Ghoul Ambush was inserted to show off how Bad-Ass Frosty was (which we rocked as PC's for 6 Turns before the GM got tired of pulling more and more ghouls and had Frosty do her thing), and the Emergence Campaign, when in the Walled City of Kowloon when facing off with the Yama Kings. Exactly TWICE in the entire life of SR4.

That being said, we have not played all the modules or missions, but then again, I imagine that the Missions do not have human waves either. Could be wrong, though. *shrug*

Please Explain to me exactly how SR5 makes that more exciting, because I am just not seeing it.

Heheheh. Was j/k. Just giving you an opportunity to speak up for 4th edition.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Kudos Good Sir, it has indeed worked... Congratulations. Heheheh...

Really? I found it incredibly easy to exploit.

Round 1: All players defend/dodge, LS fires and misses.
Rounds 2-4: All players slaughter those poor saps with only 1 IP.

Just stopping by to stay that you guys have entirely failed to sell me on 5th edition. Thanks especially to Tymeaus.


I'm really pretty happy with the SR4.5 that I already run.


I don't expect they're fixing all the issues that I've already fixed, and I suspect they will introduce new issues.

No edition is perfect. People like Tymeaus have forgotten that hacking cyberware was a thing when 4th edition originally released that people raised a big stink about. Fanpro dropped it and CGL has picked it up again. I expect it to be promptly dropped again.

I played with my houseruled 3rd edition for the last 8+ years of 4th edition so I can sympathize with having things the way you want them. But I also know the drawbacks. 4th edition is now a dead game and within a few months game stores will no longer support and most won't even want it in their store once they're out of 4th edition stock and trying to sell 5th. Depending on the overall popularity of the edition, people may not want to play it much at all. If you have a dedicated group going you'll be fine, but don't expect to grow it much as life slowly pulls people out of gaming.

Myself I look forward to hopefully continuing on my 3rd edition group and mixing in some new blood as we move forward with 5th edition and skip the nonsense that was 4th ed reboot.

While SR5 has some things I really do like, I'm really gun-shy about the implementation.

Priority, for example. I loved Priority back in the day, it was one of the original template systems, and made for fast, easy, smooth, and *balanced* character creation. SR4.0 dumped it, and 4.5 tried to bring it back, but botched the job. I haven't had a chance to run the numbers yet, but it seems way too easy to get a high Edge now, and Edge was one of the most broken parts of 4/4.5. Every playtester has reported that Edge is now more powerful than before, and that worries me.

Going back to SR3 initiative, I like. I had my own system, which I can return to: it works like the original system, except you go backwards. Lower initiative characters declare and go first. Faster characters have the option of subtracting 10 from their score and "seizing the initiative" after someone else has committed to an action, allowing them to interrupt. This means speed is very powerful, but slower PC's still get to act before everything else is dead, as the speedier PC's aren't likely to seize the initiative from their own teammates.

Limits, however, bug me. If they're not coming up very often, then they're not really a limiting factor (pun intended). If they come up too often, they're an annoyance and a fun-killer. There is a middle ground, but it's a fine line, and I don't see that they've hit it yet. Worse, Edge can blow limits out of the water, which just makes a high Edge even that much more powerful.

Bottom line: I'm not going to spend real money on acquiring a copy of SR5 until I've seen how it works.

Apples and Oranges...
In SR2, the Mid 40's Initiative guy would have slaughtered the opposition long before the 5 Initiative target even knew he was dead. *shrug*
Point being, if you are arguing about speed of reactions, SR3's system is counterintuitive. And yes, that was the typical response; Defend and THEN slaughter your opposition.

How is SR2 relevant to this conversation? We're comparing SR3 and SR4. Moreover, we're discussing the problems with SR4's initiative system, which has some serious balance problems:

1. Mages can easily top out on actions per round, allowing them to drop as many as 4 high-force Stunballs - who needs a team when you've got one mage?

2. Wired Reflexes become a requirement, rather than an option. There is absolutely no viable combat build without Wired Reflexes, or something similar.

3. Combat with anything other than equally-skilled opponents is trivial. Players who are not retarded can repel an infinite number of mooks (assuming the stats given for LS officers in the book) due to have 3-4 times as many actions per round, guaranteed.

FWIW, I have the book pre-ordered at my FLGS, but the more I learn about SR5 and how similar it is to SR4, the more I'm talking myself out of buying it.

- The lack of any relevant difference between magic traditions is a huge loss of game flavor. I might as well be playing GURPs if all Shamans are just Mages in funny pants.

- Still no word on whether they've fixed Technomancers. As it stands in SR4, the only reason to play a non-TM hacker or Rigger is if you are a) retarded or b) intentionally want to play a sub-optimal character. TMs can thread a program higher than any Decker ever could reasonably build/run. And no, I don't want to hear about the custom programming rules in Unwired; who wants to spend half a year of in-game downtime programming a tool that's going to fall out of SOTA as soon as you complete it?

- Overall, the game has been moving further and further away from what Shadowrun was about. No chrome, all bioware. No decking, all technomancers. The whole thing feels more like a White Wolf game than the setting that I initially became interested in.

I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

Apparently you missed all the subtext of the actual conversation. No worries, it happens.
The complaint is that I hate SR3's Initiative system because it is wonky, for several reasons that were enumerated at one point or another. SR4's system I actually really like (even though it is a modification of SR3 - Yes, IP's are very important, though I have found that 2 is often perfect, and 3 is more than enough. 4 and 5 IP's are nice to have, but are excessive in almost every situation). When the comparison came up, I stated that if the Poster's choice was strictly about how fast he Character acted in SR3, his argument made no sense and he should be using SR2's Initiative system, because it aligned with his position.

Apparently, you jumped into the middle of it, without getting the subtext involved.
Again, No worries.

Going back to SR3's system does not fix the problems with your scenario, now does it?

The SR3 initiative system made it less guaranteed that you would go multiple times per round, which reduced the inequity.

- See, this is the biggest improvement in the game system in many years. There were too many disparate magical systems out there, and if you wanted more variety, then you had to create more systems. With the Unified Magical Theory, all "Magic" is similar enough that it does not matter... What does matter is the philosophy, trappings, and execution of the magical tradition that matters, which the UMT handles quite nicely. If that flavor was missing from your game, it was not the system's fault. *shrug*

- Don't know about the Technomancers... Like you, I have heard very little about it. Maybe you can tell us when you get the PDF.

- I agree that the game is moving further away from its roots. This is sad. However, I have had different experiences than you have... I see WAY more chrome than bio, and there have been more Hackers than Technomancers (both of whom heavily delved into the Matrix). AS for custom Programming rules, they were never onerous, I Used them ALL the time, and to great effect. They rarely took Half a Year, and generally were resolved in less than a Month for most of the Programs I wrote in game (some in a week or so). As for falling to SOTA, that never happened. You do realize how easy it is to Patch, right? Depending upon the rules used will determine the usability of Custom Coded Programs, but they ARE a thing in-universe, so...

Here's to hoping that you are more satisfied with SR5 than you were with SR4.

Actually in SR5 Initiative trends toward 1-2 passes if you're unaugmented, or 2-3 passes if you're moderately augmented. Which means very often, while you have an advantage if you're augmented, you won't be literally acting 3 times every turn to the enemy's 1, with no variation. Sometimes you'll go 2 and 2, sometimes 3 and 2, sometimes 2 and 1, and sometimes 3 and 1.

That sort of variation adds some tension.

Not only that, but even if you have 5d6 Initiative dice, the chance of rolling a 30 is really low. Not so oddly, it's the same chance as rolling a 5. So you might get 4 passes, but it's still possible you'll get 2.

+IP gear a la SR4 was simply too awesomely reliable to go without. Back in SR3 you could get by with some low-impact Boosted Reflexes or crank yourself full of Reaction Enhancers without taking the huge Wired Reflexes essence hit, and still be competitive.

Speaking of losing functionality, this was a huge functionality loss between SR3 and SR4. Mundanes went from possibly having 2 IPs to never having 2 IPs, making magic or IP gear critically necessary -- a character that lacked those things (even if he was chock full of other Initiative boosters) was basically screwed in the new edition.

No more than SR2 did... and yet, in SR2, the FAST sam killed everything before others acted... WHY? Because he was FAST. But wait, then comes SR3, where you still roll the same dice, but you parse out the passes so everyone gets an action before the Sam kills everyone (so maybe the SAM actually dies in the 1st Pass to the Mage). Suddenly, your FAST SAM IS NOT SO FAST ANYMORE. What?

See, Speed ceased to matter for most things, as most Turns are resolved in 2 Passes (maybe 3) unless it is a large dustup... So an appeal to speed would benefit the most by using SR2's Initiative system rather than Returning to SR3's System (Which SR5 did, for the most part)

Shamans don't even have Totems anymore. There is literally nothing Shamanic about them. If you're willing to piss away 5 points you can sort of approximate the flavor of an SR3 Shaman, but even then you're just summoning the same stuff that a Mage summoned. Sometimes a little rules complexity for the sake of depth is a worthwhile trade.

And yet, the vast majority of my SR4 characters only get 2 passes. You can be viable, functional and Survivable with 2 IP... But again, I was not arguing from that point. I was addressing the argument that the system being used does not promote the speed of the High Initiative character ala SR2, which was what was being addressed.

Why not? Mine do. Each and every one. Why don't yours? If you don't for the purpose of being more efficient in your build, then you do not understand what it is to be a Shaman. *shrug*

You do not need RULES to provide Flavor, or Complexity. You must be willing to shoulder that flavor and complexity with no benefit to the character. In essence, you must adopt the TRADITION of the Magic Philosophy that you purport to follow. If you do not, then you are not following the Tradition. The UMT was inspired and awesome in its ability to mimic ANY Tradition out there, while still maintaining the simplicity of a single ruleset to adjudicate the Magical Effects.

Nobody is saying that 2IP isn't viable...the problem is that most people in Shadowrun have only 1IP. Getting 2IP requires you to be Awakened or have cyberware.

No, It does not... *sheesh*

Ever heard of Cram? or Jazz? or Kamikaze. All street Drugs that gangers have access to, for almost no cost.
Jazz is also the Combat Drug for Law Enforcement so they do not have to 'ware their people up.

All of these are in the Main SR4A Book.

Awesome, so to be as good as he was in SR3, an SR4 character would have to take drugs.

Popping Jazz requires a complex action...in the first round, where the LS officer gets easily popped.

Guaranteed IPs are just bad for combat balance in a system that uses multiple "passes" per turn.

Yes, One Round to take effect. 3 Seconds. WHY would he announce his presence prior to his CHOICE on when to engage his opponent. He has Position, Knowledge, and Time on his side. Ever heard about Cover and Concealment, Stealth, Camera Surveillance, Etc.? If your opponents are standing in the open waiting to be killed, well...

I disagree...

Nope... I have seen (even had) SR3 Characters with a base (low to be sure) Double Digit Reaction (?), which gives 2 passes by default.
My primary character moving from SR3 to SR4 ONLY HAD one Pass to start with... It was not until MUCH later he managed to get a permanent 2 IP.
Methinks you are putting too much emphasis on number of passes to be viable.

This I can semi address for SR5, having looked through the TM and Matrix rules a bit in preparation for converting my character. For most Matrix actions TMs and Deckers do the same thing. Matrix tests are Attribute + Skill. Deckers can juggle their deck's stats, TMs are limited to their Living Persona. TMs can't use programs and Resonance stuff at the same time, though I'm not sure what the action to switch is. So for the most part, they are on an even playing field.

Now, here's where it diverges. Programs do things different from what a TM can do with complex forms. Here's a list of progs and what they do:

General (I assume some run on commlinks just fine).

• Browse: Halves Matrix data searches.
• Configurator: Swaps Matrix stats with a preset.
• Edit: Add to Data Processing limit.
• Encryption: Bonus to firewall.
• Signal Scrub: Reduces noise.
• Toolbox: Bonus to Data Processing.
• Virtual Machine: Get more program capacity at higher risk of damage.

Hacking (Deck limited.)

• Armor: Resist Matrix damage.
• Baby Monitor: Always know your Overwatch score. (You can check this with simple action even if you don't have the program.)
• Biofeedback: Additional damage when attacking.
• Biofeedback filter: Resist biofeedback damage.
• Decryption: Bonus to Attack attribute.
• Blackout: Stun only Biofeedback.
• Defuse: Resist damage from data bombs.
• Demolition: Adds potency to data bombs.
• Exploit: Bonus to Sleaze tests when Hacking on the Fly.
• Fork: Perform the same command on two targets.
• Guard: Reduce damage from Marks.
• Hammer: Do more Matrix damage.
• Lockdown: Link lock a target.
• Mugger: Bonus damage from Marks.
• Shell: Bonus to damage resistance.
• Sneak: Bonus to defend against Trace.
• Stealth: Bonus to Sleaze attribute.
• Track: Bonus to Track tests.
• Wrapper: Allows you to disguise your Matrix icon like another icon. (Look like a file!)

Complex forms aren't program clones anymore. And TMs can't thread programs, only CFs. Here's a rundown of CFs in SR5:

• Cleaner: Lowers Overwatch score.
• Diffusion of [Matrix Attribute]: Debuffs a specific Matrix attribute, one CF per Matrix attribute.
• Editor: Use Resonance to change contents of a file.
• Infusion of [Matrix Attribute]: Buffs a specific Matrix attribute, one CF per Matrix attribute.
• Static Veil: Sorta hides the TM from GOD, but not any of the Overwatch increase illegal actions.
• Pulse Storm: Increases target's noise.
• Puppeteer: Push Resonance commands to a Matrix target to make it perform a Matrix action.
• Resonance Channel: Reduce your noise.
• Resonance Spike: Do Matrix damage.
• Resonance Veil: Matrix illusions (of a sort).
• Static Bomb: Matrix vanishing (with limitations).
• Stitches: Heal sprites.
• Transcendent Grid: Occupy multiple grids simultaneously.
• Tattletale: Increase target's Overwatch score.

So the why play a non-TM Hacker, aka Decker? They do different things via their tools. But since they both do the same basic actions, they are equally competent at the hacking job. Oh, and TMs need to pick up another skill group that Hackers don't. (Tasking)

TMs can't Rig out of the box without expensive Resonance reducing cyberwear. (Submersion allows them to emulate a VCR with an echo.) Machine Sprites might be able to handle Rigging, but it doesn't look like they can jump in, just use control device actions. Riggers and Deckers could be the same person with two archtypes, but the cost of a decent deck + the cost of a VCR is too expensive. Most likely, starting Decker/Riggers will have to be competent at one and grow into the other later.

All in all, all three have their niche and remain distinct.

-Temperance

I like a lot of stuff about the new edition. The Limits system makes sense. I like the streamlining and addition of lots of neat ways to take on increased risk for increased reward in the rolls.

I just think it's all almost completely negated by the fall back to the priority char gen system and Bricking. The death of the priority system was one of the best parts about 4th, because it meant you could design what you wanted, even if it took more time. The priority system always forces you into narrowly defined archetypes and 'classes'. It feels like creativity and originality are the innocent bystander victims of a war on min-maxxers yet again. I understand the logic that GMs can always wave rules or implement houserules that are less restrictive (and I'm sure we'll be getting an optional karma buy system down the line) but it works the other way, saying that GMs who know a player is a min-maxxer can make house rules banning abusive builds. And when the name of the game is creating a fictional persona you will pretend to be, options and creativity should always be prioritized over preventing system abuses. Because the system abusing number crunchers will always find a way.

As for Bricking, it's a great idea that someone forgot to think through. It's great conceptually, till you realize it's going to lead to a major book keeping nightmare for the gm and players, as having to keep matrix damage tracks for every device on each runner and each mook could get tedious quickly, and since the devices don't reset the damage easily but have to be broken down, I just see too many screw ups and accounting fubars to make this a good move. I could be wrong on this one, but I've always found any potential extra book keeping of 'persistent' effects never ends well.

Honestly, my feeling is use the 5th ed book as an idea source for new twists for fourth, but stay away till the equivalent of the Runner's Companion comes out and we get some creative control back.

Even if I somehow manage to get SR5, It will apparently be years before I can even consider converting my Cyberlogician to the new system.

My understanding is that the reversion to a priority system had very little to due with character creation min/max abuse. It's more that Priority is for quick and (relatively) easy character creation. AND it's a low barrier to entry for newbies to the system. (This is not to negate your feelings on the matter, just that your reaction may be based on incomplete knowledge.)

And yes, there will be alternate character creation systems. Supposedly Run Faster (the SR5 Runner's Companion) is going to be the first splat book released. I've seen mention both Karma and BP systems will be included. So you might only have a couple months till the lack is addressed satisfactorily.

-Temperance

So, here's my first impression of the new book:
Layout: Red is the new green
Chargen: Looks fine so far. Only thing that irks me are asymmetric costs, which heavily encourage minmaxing. It's probably best if all desired qualities are purchased at chargen, since they cost twice as much in play (which, to me, makes no sense whatsoever). Likewise, people will use their free skillpoints to buy their R6 skills, and branch out later using Karma. The potential R12-13 skills sound nice on paper, but will probably only be relevant for those groups with 300+ Karma chars.
Qualities: They've gutted the "free points" benefits, which is good for game balance. Sensitive System now hurts awakened and TMs just as much, but I believe the "no bioware" clause is overkill.
Skills: So yeah... I'm not happy with some skill groups. Moving Con out of Influence will hurt most faces, and while leadership has some clearer guidelines on what it can do, it's still a lackluster skill. I'd rather have a skillgroup consisting of Con, Etiquette, Negotiate and Intimidation. Also, while in the name of Jupiter's c*ck is there still no Pilot skill group? Also, the existence of an Exotic Weapon skill means that said weapons will either be unused or need to be better than their regular counterparts.
Archetypes: Most of them are a laughingstock... whoever came up with the Weapons Specialist should be forbidden from creating offspring, lest his/her crazy idea of what constitutes a combat character spreads. News flash: Combat characters without some form of initiative enhancement are not viable. They weren't in the last edition, they aren't now.
Trolls: Oh boy, whoever wrote the rules on them really hate troggs... Increased costs for gear, lifestyle and 'ware, high priority needed to play one, and the fact that they are (together with dwarfs) the slowest race... so yeah. Hope they will get errata'd

I realize this is first impressions, but some notes:

In defense of the weapon specialist that's not entirely true anymore. Especially when you can get get 2 IPs without initiative enhancers in SR5. Heck, at 7+1d6, the weapons specialist gets a second pass roughly 50% of the time. Due to the gear changes, Wired Reflexes 2 and Synaptic Booster 2 are both at Availability 12 (and therefore capped at character creation). So even the the ones who have initiative enhancers are capping at +3d6. Elven cyber gun monkeys are only looking at what? 18 (10 agi [8 nat + 2 muscle toner] +6 Intuition +2 Wired/Synaptic) +3d6 (1d6 nat = 2d6 Wired/Synaptic). So 18 + 3d6. On an average roll, 10.5, round up to 11 is an initiative of 29. Maybe 30 if the elf took exceptional attribute. IE: On average, the min/maxed elf gun money is looking at 3 passes. 1 pass difference on average is does not merit a lambasting.

Tolls: It will be errata'd. It's a known issue from the previews 3 - 4 weeks ago. The only thing they get stuck with is 100% lifestyle costs.

-Temperance

Just a correction here. Initiative is Reaction + Intuition, not Agility. So 16+3D6. Otherwise, you're spot on.

So far ONE of my characters is semi-portable (and him mostly in spirit).

Ugh, /facepalm. On the other hand, that makes the 4th pass even harder to get.

On a max roll the gun monkey comes up with 34 (4 passes: 34, 24, 14, 4) while the weapons specialist comes up with 13 (2 passes: 13, 3). So yes, the weapons specialist is markedly slower and two passes is a bigger gap than one pass, but it's still not that big a deal.

-Temperance

Even with the fourth pass, passes are less valuable now as well. One attack per pass, remember.

It is entirely possible to hang in combat now without being a speed monkey.

Just Blitz. It's worth using Edge because you can recover it during the session for doing cool stuff.