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Laodicea
Basically, I've houseruled my 4th edition into the kind of shape where I consider it to not only be playable, but I actually think it's a fantastic game.

I don't really feel the need to have a 5th edition. Particularly when it seems that the 5th edition is really just a 4.5. I'm already running a 4.5.

I want to try to be open minded about it. I honestly haven't ready every bit of data about 5th edition that has been released, so I may be missing some spectacular features.

Thoughts?
hermit
What are your houserules?

Otherwise, wait until 12th. There should be a number of reviews soon after the launch date.
Isath
Even worse, so far SR5 (to me) appears to be a prequel to SR4, a SR3.5 so to say. While I have to admit, that it appears to improve a few things, it is more of a step backwards from the first real step forward SR has ever made (meaning SR4). To me SR4 was a brave and a good step, one that they chickened out now. Also I really do not like the "bucketloads of dice" concept SR5 falls back to.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Isath @ Jul 8 2013, 01:54 PM) *
Even worse, so far SR5 (to me) appears to be a prequel to SR4, a SR3.5 so to say. While I have to admit, that it appears to improve a few things, it is more of a step backwards from the first real step forward SR has ever made (meaning SR4). To me SR4 was a brave and a good step, one that they chickened out now.


Gotta agree with that. I feel that the return of decking and the supposed differences between magic traditions were reintroduced purely for "old times sake".
Sendaz
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 8 2013, 08:58 AM) *
Gotta agree with that. I feel that the return of decking and the supposed differences between magic traditions were reintroduced purely for "old times sake".

*shakes his cane at the whippersnappers* Get off my LAN!

I think the decking is sort of in limbo, they made decking more common place so that everyone could do a little hacking, but so many didn't like the rules for it they never used it. Which is sort of a shame as it did add that GitS flavour a little.

So now they are going back to the concept of dedicated decking types and the necessity for more in-depth gear and skills for it.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but again it depends on how your tastes run.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 8 2013, 08:58 AM) *
Gotta agree with that. I feel that the return of decking and the supposed differences between magic traditions were reintroduced purely for "old times sake".


Traditions work the same they did in SR4, not sure where you got your information.

SR5 fixes the idea SR4 wanted to do in terms of the Matrix vulnerabilities. You could have gear, but a combat hacker could mess you up - the idea of a digital mage working on the digital layer. Note well that I say this is a 4th edition idea. But what happened is there was no downside to turning everything off and hiding, so everyone did. SR5 reworks the rules so that is you do simply take your chips off the table, you're also losing a little something. So, in essence, it resuscitates the idea that 4th introduced. In my opinion, this is the best new aspect of SR5. It introduces a vulnerability that wasn't there before, which seems to rile people. Sometimes I wonder why they play, but whatever. Perhaps my perspective as a GM is different.

Aside from that, it does not regress to 3.5, no. It goes back to an initiative system similar to what was in 3rd, but only for the initiative. The combat system is something we have never ever seen. It is vastly different. As a GM, I find it easier to handle and more streamlined.

Matrix actions, other than the "equipement wars" discussed in first paragraph, is also vastly streamlined and very different. Again, as a GM, I feel I can use this much better and present interesting scenes for the hackers, with a variety of things to do. It's no longer hack-get file-get out with "cybercombat" being a synonym of "you failed".

So, if I was to sum it up:

* New things for players to do
* New things for GM to challenge players with
* Faster rules for less looking stuff up, more getting on with he action and storytelling
Nath
- Priority System for character creation, so that players get to choose the repartition key at the beginning of the process.
- Skills that go up to 12 after chargen, so that even hyper-specialized characters can have something to spend their first 100 karma on.
- Higher prices for augmentations and hacking gear, to prevent characters from getting them without a significant investment.
- Limits on the number of hits, to prevent lucky break based on dice results alone when a character's attributes, gear or Edge cannot explain it.
- New (old) initiative rules, that makes magical or technological initiative boosts less powerful.
- Less powerful direct combat spells, so that indirect combat spells may not be a lesser choice.
- Higher drain on spells.
- Attribute involved in Matrix test.
Moirdryd
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 8 2013, 01:58 PM) *
Gotta agree with that. I feel that the return of decking and the supposed differences between magic traditions were reintroduced purely for "old times sake".


That "old times sake" seems to be attracting back a lot of the SR3 crowd to the new product. The decking thing isnt hard to work around if you don't like the idea of "Deckers", all you do is make Cyberdecks cost as Comlinks and everyone can be part of the hacking party. But again it comes down to how close to GitS/Appleseed you want to play. Again there are already other games that do this better than SR in the first place and it doesnt fit very well with a lot of the established concepts of the Sixth World.

Also, there wasn't a supposed difference between magical traditions, the differences were both functional and relevant and played into the Corp/Anarchist model to the original cyberpunk-dystopian. Thats why a lot of Corps had Mages but not Shaman, it also allowed for lateral expansion in the setting materials and source books and play options. The UMT only allows for linear expansion. In the core book yes there is still not much difference, but the magic supplements are apparently bringing those back.

There is a reason for many of the things being done having been done and it applies across the RPG market. Look at nWoD, it's most popular products (at least according to several of my FLGs) were things like Changeling The Lost, because it was 100% new (IE: a totally different theme, setting style and everything from CTD). Where as WTF and VTR were less popular rehashings of the established games from oWoD and were not actually new enough to be different games. The same can be said of D&D, I have a group that really enjoys 4E and I enjoy running it for them, but I would never use it for say a Forgotten Realms or a Dragonlance campaign. 3.5 was the best edition to run in those Established Settings (or AD&D) but 4E was perfect for my custom campaign world (which was familiar in AD&D too).

SR4 was to many people very close to nWoD, it came out around the same time and it also had shades of the same mechanical systems. It also made major setting alterations that deviated from the flow of the world as written since it appeared in '89, sure it has happened before in the product line, but so much was different it was very like holding up VTM and VTR next to each other. There was a thread a goodly while ago (before I registered on Dumpshock I think and was just a guest browser) which compared the D&D Campaign games (and some others) to the SR campaign games and noted an interesting fact. It was a common tendency for most SR GM's to stick to the cannon material fairly regularly and even write up twists in their campaigns to fit with new released material. Most DM's usually had written their own worlds instead of playing in an established setting (or had made major changes) and often iognored updates in the Cannon Story to their campaign, instead using it when a new game began. WoD ST's were often somewhere in the middle. That alone shows how many people enjoyed the Sixth World as written which meant to world changes shook up that fanbase far worse than say the Spellplague in the Realms, Age of Mortals in Dragonlance or even the Apocalypse/Gehenna did in WoD (or War in Concordia etc).

SR5 to my eyes, while doing some things that I remain cagey about (and will be houseruling or re-logicing a little), seems to be a honest attempt to try and blend back in some of the sixth world as was written through 3 editions of the game (even as people have said borrowing a little from multiple matrix ideaologies) with some of the "progress" in tech theme (and system overhaul) made in 4th. It's trying to do streamlined things with a system without making it utterly bland. How well it does that I wont know until I run my first few games of it. But from what I ahve seen it does it, conceptually, well enough to work with.

That's why I shall be getting it and thats why I think other people should give it a go too.
Jhaiisiin
There was a lot of blowback when SR4 hit about the change from "Deckers" to "Hackers", and the loss of flavor it implied, which may have driven the name change back. That said, an in world explanation could be thus:

The term "Hacker" could have been a fad, that quickly got booted when decks finally started making their appearance again. They were rendered obsolete briefly until someone figured out ways to make them even better and give an edge back to the hardcore elite. Thus the return of Deckers.


"Thus" needs to be used more often, I think. Thus. Thusly. Thussification. Okay, maybe that's going to far.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jul 8 2013, 10:24 AM) *
Okay, maybe that's going to far.

Only if you believe thus. nyahnyah.gif
Tanegar
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 8 2013, 09:08 AM) *
SR5 reworks the rules so that is you do simply take your chips off the table, you're also losing a little something. So, in essence, it resuscitates the idea that 4th introduced. In my opinion, this is the best new aspect of SR5. It introduces a vulnerability that wasn't there before, which seems to rile people. Sometimes I wonder why they play, but whatever. Perhaps my perspective as a GM is different.

If you run "autistic" (to borrow a GitS term) in Shadowrun 4, you're definitely losing something. You don't have access to communications, to a tacnet, or to any drones you may have. Deckers do not need to be able to brick the opposition's cyberware to have things to do in combat. SR5 is less a case of introducing a vulnerability that wasn't there before than solving a problem that never existed.
cndblank
I haven't ran 5th edition yet, but I'm jonesing to give it a try.

Raising the max skill to 12 is a great solution to the legendary not being very legendary in 4th.
It was way to easy to get your prime skill to a 6 and that was only one dice behind what the best of the best would have.

The new initiative system looks really good.

A fit non enhanced character can get two passes per turn (Say Reaction and Intuition are 5).
Yeah! The mooks are now something of a threat.

Someone with Wired 2 rolling 3d6 to add to their Initiative stat will provided more of a range than it they were rolling their Initiative stat and adding the successes.
This is a good thing. I have an gunslinger Adept and a Street Samurai in my party. With Attribute Boost the Adept usually goes first.
Now things will be mixed up more and the Samurai will get to go first more often.

The one attack per turn will speed up play and spread the fun around.
With the above two PCs, you could have 4 dead after only two players had gone.
This makes the individual turns faster but makes the combat as a whole last a little longer.
Which lets the rest of my players get in to the act.
It is also a plus that it will take the GM a little longer to finish off a PC (Gives the other PCs a chance to join the fun).
And you can use a Multiple Attack and split your dice if you want to attack more.

I also love the -10 to go all Defense and -5 to defend against a single attack (Block, Grab Cover, and so on).
In 3rd there was no difference if you had a 21 Initiative or a 30. You get a pass at 11, 21, 31, and so on.
In 5th, if you have a 26 to 30, you can pull a -5 Initiative defensive action and still get the same number of passes.

Finally everyone gets 1 free action per pass so you can still react to what is going on around you even if you have no passes left.
LurkerOutThere
If you like mages and hack errr deckers Sr5 is great. SAMs need not apply.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 8 2013, 09:46 AM) *
If you like mages and hack errr deckers Sr5 is great. SAMs need not apply.


Which is sad, really. frown.gif
Daedelus
Unfortunately Laodicea I think this is a bad place to ask for an Objective opinion. There is a lot of opinion flying about based on speculative information at best, and you question is a difficult one to boot. Without knowing your play style, whether you come from a gamist or simulationist viewpoint, and what you liked and disliked about SR4 It is nigh impossible to say if it is worth it to you.
I am excited about the new edition. In my opinion it seems to fix quite a few pitfalls that plagued SR4. It tightens some of the good rules even more, and effectively, on the surface at least, overhauls the matrix rules. I believe that the matrix bonuses and combat hacking will promote more deckers in the game, and adds a richness that was part of the lore but never made the transition to the game table in groups I played with. My focus is 80-85% Gamist, so YMMV. Please keep in mind that this is the opinion of myself and 12-15 of the 15-20 members of my core gaming group. We try to always look at new editions in a stand alone manner, as it is our opinion that comparing them to older editions beyond the level of did they fix conceptual problem X is an ineffective measure. I hope this helps you make your decision.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Jul 8 2013, 05:53 AM) *
Basically, I've houseruled my 4th edition into the kind of shape where I consider it to not only be playable, but I actually think it's a fantastic game.

I don't really feel the need to have a 5th edition. Particularly when it seems that the 5th edition is really just a 4.5. I'm already running a 4.5.

I want to try to be open minded about it. I honestly haven't ready every bit of data about 5th edition that has been released, so I may be missing some spectacular features.

Thoughts?


Generally speaking, the Matrix and Magic rules appear to have been sharpened.

Previously it was possible to be a magical superpower without ever having to worry about Drain, and now it appears Drain is back on the table in line as risk vs reward. You can still drop cheap direct spells on the enemy, but they're not going to trounce anyone like a high Force fireball will.

The Matrix rules get rid of the giant whopping mess that 'nodes' created. Nodes were a, to borrow someone else's term here, a very gamist approach to the Matrix. Basically, nodes were worthless as a place for actual functioning people, businesses, and corporations to get any work done, because of a combination of accessibility and subscriber limits. Even a nexus could only let some 30-odd people in, which would mean that a real business would have to have dozens or even hundreds of the things linked together just to make an average office work. This completely flew in the face of the described setting, as walking into a nightclub like Dante's Inferno with its hundreds of customers all interacting with the nodes via AR would be impossible without huge numbers of nexuses. But to actually do this in the game would mean that a hacker would have to sift through and hack dozens of nodes to get anything done.

Grid / Object / Host is just a better way of sorting things. The replacement of extended hacking tests and the largely-unexplained user/security/admin access levels with marks is a very efficient and tactile way of handling Matrix actions, as well. Overall, the Matrix will probably be an accessible system to all players, and not just the ones who want to learn the gigantic cluster of bizarre architecture they had to in SR4.

Combat-wise, Initiative seems to matter more, since that's how you get your IPs again. Restricting to 'one attack' (though that's really not quite accurate, as there appear to be ways to split attacks, requiring split dice pools) will speed things along turn to turn, and combined with the extra defense dice and options but higher damage, possibly making combat engagements lasting longer than 6 seconds game time a possibility. And a little less "I shoot I dodge."

From what's been said, burst fire will subtract from the defender rather than adding more damage (note: subtracting from the defender has the net effect of adding more damage by net hits). This improves the list of tactical options, and also makes things like vehicles more resilient (shooting a tank with a full auto machine gun should no longer wreck the tank).

All in all, the system appears much more usable than SR4. With SR4, I did what you did -- I house-ruled nearly every single system. But I eventually got frustrated with the amount of work that needed to be done to fix it (and with systems like the Matrix that just couldn't be fixed).
Bull
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 11:57 AM) *
Which is sad, really. frown.gif


Also, not even remotely accurate. I'm playing a Street Sam in our current game, and besides being a huge hit with the Ladies and the inspiration for the term Shadowrun, Shadow Ron is very, very effective.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 8 2013, 01:13 PM) *
Also, not even remotely accurate. I'm playing a Street Sam in our current game, and besides being a huge hit with the Ladies and the inspiration for the term Shadowrun, Shadow Ron is very, very effective.


Yeah, I'm not seeing the reduction in Street Samurai ability. For Magic to really outcompete wires, you're talking sustained Force 8 spells. Having Initiative + Initiative Dice pretty much means that Street Samurai will go first and go more often. Being combat-focused skill and attribute and gear-wise means that they'll have the dice to split to take down a couple opponents at once, where others would have to focus their attention on one target.

Oh, and their guns do helluva damage.

All in all it seems like a pretty big win for Street Samurai.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 8 2013, 01:58 PM) *
Gotta agree with that. I feel that the return of decking and the supposed differences between magic traditions were reintroduced purely for "old times sake".

-- I basically skipped Fourth Edition entirely (well, I SORT of kept track but didn't play). So it's not "old time" for some of us, it's how the game was played smile.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 8 2013, 01:13 PM) *
Also, not even remotely accurate. I'm playing a Street Sam in our current game, and besides being a huge hit with the Ladies and the inspiration for the term Shadowrun, Shadow Ron is very, very effective.

Yes, but isn't that due to Shadow Ron taking Exceptional Attribute, but appling it toward anatomy instead of a stat? nyahnyah.gif

Or that's what the girl's down at The Cutting Edge have been saying. wink.gif

cndblank
Since Mages have lost the one shot overcast spell kills, Sams have it a lot better.

I think non awakened characters will be just fine as long as the GM keeps two things in mind.

1) Keep ware hacking and bricking fairly rare at least for the pros.
Just to keep the GM sane, I figure a good runner team, a SWAT Team, or a High Threat Response Team (like the Red Samurai) will have near mil spec matrix security and be mostly immune to it.
The Amateurs not so much.
A little GM's grace to the Sams until this shakes out will do a lot to keep them happy.

2) Never forget the background count. Even a super wild street party can generate a mild background count. And a 1 or 2 background count will do a lot to balance out the Sams against the Mages and the Adepts. Especially with the spirits if you have a budding conjuror.
And if they complain, tell them they can always gets some ware that doesn't mind that mystic mumbo jumbo.

Just don't go overboard and remember that a place with a nasty background count will have a much larger area around it with a lower background count. Have most of the action occur there. So you can give the Sams a chance to shine without totally shutting down the Awaken. This is super real easy to forget about and too often I've let this one slide.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (cndblank @ Jul 8 2013, 01:48 PM) *
Since Mages have lost the one shot overcast spell kills, Sams have it a lot better.

I think non awakened characters will be just fine as long as the GM keeps two things in mind.

1) Keep ware hacking and bricking fairly rare at least for the pros.
Just to keep the GM sane, I figure a good runner team, a SWAT Team, or a High Threat Response Team (like the Red Samurai) will have near mil spec matrix security and be mostly immune to it.
The Amateurs not so much.
A little GM's grace to the Sams until this shakes out will do a lot to keep them happy.


If this is the default table agreement, then the new rules are not needed, seeing as this is what pretty much happened in SR4A to begin with. smile.gif
Note: I like how it is handled in SR4A. smile.gif
binarywraith
QUOTE (cndblank @ Jul 8 2013, 01:48 PM) *
And if they complain, tell them they can always gets some ware that doesn't mind that mystic mumbo jumbo.


Why couldn't we just tell the deckers the same thing, again? If you don't like being useless in combat, get some combat ware and a gun. love.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 03:11 PM) *
If this is the default table agreement, then the new rules are not needed, seeing as this is what pretty much happened in SR4A to begin with. smile.gif
Note: I like how it is handled in SR4A. smile.gif


The Matrix rules don't exist just to allow gear bricking. There's a host of other features.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 02:28 PM) *
The Matrix rules don't exist just to allow gear bricking. There's a host of other features.


Indeed there are, and they work just fine (as far as I am concerned) in SR4A. smile.gif
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 09:34 PM) *
Indeed there are, and they work just fine (as far as I am concerned) in SR4A. smile.gif


Hehehehe. You crack me up, Ty. If SR4 were a sports team, you'd have their poster on your wall and watch every play on ESPN. smile.gif

I can see you painting your face with SR4 colors. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 8 2013, 02:46 PM) *
Hehehehe. You crack me up, Ty. If SR4 were a sports team, you'd have their poster on your wall and watch every play on ESPN. smile.gif

I can see you painting your face with SR4 colors. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Heh... Not quite, but I do get your meaning. smile.gif
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 08:54 PM) *
Heh... Not quite, but I do get your meaning. smile.gif


You're just a stalwart defender of the edition, is all I'm getting at. Didn't mean it as a put down or anything. Just that I'll be reading random threads, and someone will remark off-handedly about SR4, and then BLAM!!! -- You've got a post right under it, extolling the virtues of SR4. wink.gif

It's like you have some uncanny sixth sense of when someone is about to make an unfavorable comparison to SR 4.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 8 2013, 02:57 PM) *
You're just a stalwart defender of the edition, is all I'm getting at. Didn't mean it as a put down or anything. Just that I'll be reading random threads, and someone will remark off-handedly about SR4, and then BLAM!!! -- You've got a post right under it, extolling the virtues of SR4. wink.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Heh... Yep, I like me some SR4... No worries though. smile.gif

Lots of things in previous editions REALLY bothered me, and most of them went away in SR4 (Unfortunately, not all of them)...

SR5, so far, has just rubbed me the wrong way (and has re-introduced things from previous editions that I absolutely hated). There are some good things there, to be sure, though some of them have been implemented poorly. All in all, SR4A is what I like, and works extremely well, at least for me.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 09:04 PM) *
Heh... Yep, I like me some SR4... No worries though. smile.gif

Lots of things in previous editions REALLY bothered me, and most of them went away in SR4 (Unfortunately, not all of them)...

SR5, so far, has just rubbed me the wrong way (and has re-introduced things from previous editions that I absolutely hated). There are some good things there, to be sure, though some of them have been implemented poorly. All in all, SR4A is what I like, and works extremely well, at least for me.


Having come from playing third edition shadowrun in an entirely text based medium, and being used to simple combat scenes being stretched into hours, and hours, and hours of time (largely spent waiting for other PCs to type out what they were doing...)

...I can certainly appreciate the streamlining that SR 4 introduced. smile.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 8 2013, 03:08 PM) *
Having come from playing third edition shadowrun in an entirely text based medium, and being used to simple combat scenes being stretched into hours, and hours, and hours of time (largely spent waiting for other PCs to type out what they were doing...)

...I can certainly appreciate the streamlining that SR 4 introduced. smile.gif

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Similar Experience with Combat in SR3, with TN's commonly at 9+ (Every modifier that could possibly apply, did, in every combat)... Combat was an hours long exercise in futility. smile.gif

Not that I did not have fun, it was just a blessing when we changed to SR4. Combats were MUCH faster.
SR5 has potential to speed up combat even more, but I dislike how they went about it (And I absolutely hate the return to SR3 Style Initiative). *shrug*
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 10:12 PM) *
SR5 has potential to speed up combat even more, but I dislike how they went about it (And I absolutely hate the return to SR3 Style Initiative). *shrug*


Sidestepping our potential disagreement on Initiative (I'm largely indifferent at the moment, with a slight bias towards classic initiative as its "what I know"), I like the possibilities of further streamlining. I've always felt that lots of Real Life time spent on very little game time made for unrealistically (From an In-Character perspective) short combat scenes driven simply by the fact that no-one wants to spend 9 hours resolving 9 seconds.

Further streamlining combat should make things like High Threat Response times actually matter. Particularly if those defensive 'interrupt' actions get popular, as that'll will further act to speed up combat by making people burn through their init score faster.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 8 2013, 03:20 PM) *
Sidestepping our potential disagreement on Initiative (I'm largely indifferent at the moment, with a slight bias towards classic initiative as its "what I know"), I like the possibilities of further streamlining. I've always felt that lots of Real Life time spent on very little game time made for unrealistically (From an In-Character perspective) short combat scenes driven simply by the fact that no-one wants to spend 9 hours resolving 9 seconds.

Further streamlining combat should make things like High Threat Response times actually matter. Particularly if those defensive 'interrupt' actions get popular, as that'll will further act to speed up combat by making people burn through their init score faster.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Streamlining should help in that regard, yes. I just wish they had gone about it differently. Not sure what I would suggest in its place (assuming I wanted to do something different than SR4) though. I really like how the Fate SYstem works combat, but that would likely not work in Shadowrun. Different Systems with Different Agendas. smile.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 05:12 PM) *
(And I absolutely hate the return to SR3 Style Initiative). *shrug*


This is actually what I see as the best of all possible changes. Splitting Initiative from IPs a huge deal, and often created scenarios where someone could roll huge on the Initiative track but somehow have fewer actions than the guy who was much slower, which didn't make any sense because bonus IPs are supposed to be the net effect of being able to react so quickly that normal actions take you a fraction of the time they normally take.

Also you could never roll well enough that you'd get an extra IP, making IP-boosting gear ridiculously necessary for any and all characters. You could be the fastest gun alive but you'd still get the same number of actions per round as a paraplegic octogenarian.

I had a player in SR4 who was consistently near the bottom of the Initiative chart, routinely reacting slower than 1 IP Lone Star agents, but would somehow have 3 IPs. Which meant all the cops would act, and then he would take 6 consecutive actions. It got ridiculous.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 03:51 PM) *
This is actually what I see as the best of all possible changes. Splitting Initiative from IPs a huge deal, and often created scenarios where someone could roll huge on the Initiative track but somehow have fewer actions than the guy who was much slower, which didn't make any sense because bonus IPs are supposed to be the net effect of being able to react so quickly that normal actions take you a fraction of the time they normally take.

Also you could never roll well enough that you'd get an extra IP, making IP-boosting gear ridiculously necessary for any and all characters. You could be the fastest gun alive but you'd still get the same number of actions per round as a paraplegic octogenarian.

I had a player in SR4 who was consistently near the bottom of the Initiative chart, routinely reacting slower than 1 IP Lone Star agents, but would somehow have 3 IPs. Which meant all the cops would act, and then he would take 6 consecutive actions. It got ridiculous.


Apparently, You and I have had different Experiences. smile.gif

In my experience, having seen the Character who rolls mid 40's for initiative (in the Variable Initiative of SR3), why would he be required to put his actions on hold so that the guy who had a 5 Initiative got his action? SR2 had its issues, to be sure, but that initiative system makes a LOT more sense in the Speed argument than does SR3 (Yes, SR3 did it so that the other characters got to do something rather than sit and watch the Street Sam kill everything). SR4's Initiative system does not bother me in the least. smile.gif
Tanegar
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 05:51 PM) *
I had a player in SR4 who was consistently near the bottom of the Initiative chart, routinely reacting slower than 1 IP Lone Star agents, but would somehow have 3 IPs. Which meant all the cops would act, and then he would take 6 consecutive actions. It got ridiculous.

How did that happen? AFAIK, everything in SR4 that gives extra passes also boosts, directly or indirectly, your Initiative attribute. Did he just roll badly, or what?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 8 2013, 05:57 PM) *
How did that happen? AFAIK, everything in SR4 that gives extra passes also boosts, directly or indirectly, your Initiative attribute. Did he just roll badly, or what?


I think he might have had Initiative 7. He wasn't a street samurai, but rather an infiltrator/weapons specialist with I think a Synaptic Booster 2, so he had something like Reaction 2 (4) and Intuition 3 for Init 7 IP 3. This meant he usually acted on Init 8-10.

My cops largely had Reaction 4 Intuition 3, so they'd be at about even odds to act faster than him, which in practice turned into them going first more often than not. Anyone who was slightly better (Init 8 or 9) would act on Initiative 9-12 or so, and he'd be dead last.

Now in SR5 he'd be something like Init 7 +3d6 (for an average Initiative 17-18) for 2 IPs. Meanwhile the same unaugmented cops would be 7 +1d6, acting on a 10-11.

So in SR4 it would look like:

Cops
PC
PC
PC

Whereas in SR5 it would look like:

PC
Cops
PC

Or on an exceptional roll for both parties:
PC
Cops
PC
Cops
PC

Or on a tragic roll:
Cops
PC
Cops

Which I think is more befitting someone who installed an initiative boosting implant to help him supplement his average to poor attributes.
Nal0n
Get both Core books .... combine what you like from each ... Profit?
Tanegar
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 06:08 PM) *
He wasn't a street samurai, but rather an infiltrator/weapons specialist with I think a Synaptic Booster 2, so he had something like Reaction 2 (4) and Intuition 3 for Init 7 IP 3. This meant he usually acted on Init 8-10.

"Weapons specialist" says "frontline combatant" to me. So, he wanted to engage in firefights, but dumped his initiative stats? I don't think his low Init was a failure of the game as much as it was him being a poorly built character.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Epicedion...

A character (PC or NPC) can be quicker on the initial reaction, but still be slower overall.

PC who is last in Initiative but with 3 passes, means that initially, he is slower to get his actions (Low Initiative, for whatever reason) but is still faster than the peons/mooks/opposition (3 Passes) overall. I have no problem with that at all. Some people are just quicker (or slower) than they have a right to be, all other things considered. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 8 2013, 04:18 PM) *
"Weapons specialist" says "frontline combatant" to me. So, he wanted to engage in firefights, but dumped his initiative stats? I don't think his low Init was a failure of the game as much as it was him being a poorly built character.


This too, to some degree, though I have had Frontline combatants with Initiative 8 (2 IP) that work out just fine...
Sometimes it is nice to be able to react to everything around you rather than setting the bar for actions. smile.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 8 2013, 05:18 PM) *
"Weapons specialist" says "frontline combatant" to me. So, he wanted to engage in firefights, but dumped his initiative stats? I don't think his low Init was a failure of the game as much as it was him being a poorly built character.


Second-line combatant, really. He was more geared toward sniping, sneaking up with a silenced pistol, or support fire with automatics and grenade launchers from rear positions. His goal was either to be undetected, at extreme range, or in heavy cover. Often all three.

Where you're saying "poorly built character" I'm reading "not maxed out in combat attributes." If one score augmented to "above average" and one score at "average" are considered "dumped," then the system is pretty borked.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 03:31 PM) *
Second-line combatant, really. He was more geared toward sniping, sneaking up with a silenced pistol, or support fire with automatics and grenade launchers from rear positions. His goal was either to be undetected, at extreme range, or in heavy cover. Often all three.

Where you're saying "poorly built character" I'm reading "not maxed out in combat attributes." If one score augmented to "above average" and one score at "average" are considered "dumped," then the system is pretty borked.


Ideal Situation indeed... My assassin prefers all three if he can get them, as well. smile.gif

The one above average and one average Combo is generally where I start out. Four 3's and Four 4's is my starting matrix for stats in SR4 (Making an Average baseline to start from). smile.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 05:19 PM) *
Epicedion...

A character (PC or NPC) can be quicker on the initial reaction, but still be slower overall.

PC who is last in Initiative but with 3 passes, means that initially, he is slower to get his actions (Low Initiative, for whatever reason) but is still faster than the peons/mooks/opposition (3 Passes) overall. I have no problem with that at all. Some people are just quicker (or slower) than they have a right to be, all other things considered. smile.gif


This is where we're going to disagree. I think that Shadowrun Initiative (from extensive play of SR3) was well-designed to be "go faster and you go more often," not "go faster and/or go more often, depending." Uncoupling those two concepts felt wrong to me and didn't provide a sufficient Initiative track, and I went through extensive house-ruling to try and fix that.

I had the house-ruling problem with most systems in SR4, and when I realized I'd heavily house-ruled Magic, Matrix, Initiative, and Vehicles, I got pretty disenchanted with the system as a whole.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 05:09 PM) *
This is where we're going to disagree. I think that Shadowrun Initiative (from extensive play of SR3) was well-designed to be "go faster and you go more often," not "go faster and/or go more often, depending." Uncoupling those two concepts felt wrong to me and didn't provide a sufficient Initiative track, and I went through extensive house-ruling to try and fix that.


Like I said, Different Experiences. No worries. smile.gif
Though, If you are using that paradigm, why are you not using SR2's Initiative instead?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 06:58 PM) *
Like I said, Different Experiences. No worries. smile.gif
Though, If you are using that paradigm, why are you not using SR2's Initiative instead?


I actually love the concept of SR2's Initiative, but when it comes down to playing it I find it too boring for everyone to actually use. "Okay now the street sam goes.. and now the street sam goes.. and now the street sam goes.. and okay everyone's dead, suck it slowbies."

EDIT: I'm pretty sure this is the exact reason they changed it for SR3. Sure it's not fully realistic, but it's better for the table.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 8 2013, 05:21 PM) *
I actually love the concept of SR2's Initiative, but when it comes down to playing it I find it too boring for everyone to actually use. "Okay now the street sam goes.. and now the street sam goes.. and now the street sam goes.. and okay everyone's dead, suck it slowbies."

EDIT: I'm pretty sure this is the exact reason they changed it for SR3. Sure it's not fully realistic, but it's better for the table.


It is indeed the reason the change was made. smile.gif
Not of this World
I homeruled 3rd edition where I liked it and I've been playing it through all the 4th print run. So if you think 4th edition is perfection then that is the edition for you.

I think Moirdryd's post hit the nail pretty squarely on the head and as Shadowrun Returns kickstarter shows there are a lot of us who would rather play old school Shadowrun than an Urban Fantasy Ghost in the Shell RPG.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Jul 8 2013, 08:09 PM) *
I homeruled 3rd edition where I liked it and I've been playing it through all the 4th print run. So if you think 4th edition is perfection then that is the edition for you.

I think Moirdryd's post hit the nail pretty squarely on the head and as Shadowrun Returns kickstarter shows there are a lot of us who would rather play old school Shadowrun than an Urban Fantasy Ghost in the Shell RPG.


This is true, though I always thought SR3 could be made easier to run, certainly. Also a few things in SR3 bug me, like Intelligence making a decent street sam also into a supergenius.
GiraffeShaman
QUOTE
This is true, though I always thought SR3 could be made easier to run, certainly. Also a few things in SR3 bug me, like Intelligence making a decent street sam also into a supergenius.


Well they did say Intelligence wasn't really IQ, it was more about quick thinking, sort of a mental version of Reaction. Although it did include perception. They said that someone with tons of skills would represent a high IQ type or some such. But they just didn't really have a logic attribute at all.
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