ok, feel free to start listing all that interesting stuff you're going to buy with your 1.5 points (or 2.5 if you use a qi focus... 6.0 - 4.5 = 1.5 remaining).

i'm curious to hear what all this super-special-awesome amazing stuff the adept is going to get with those power points. you've taken the one big one, there's not a lot of great choices left in being an adept.

the very fact that you seem to think the next logical progression is into choosing the stuff that street samurai can get suggests that being an adept doesn't exactly have so much to offer that the street samurai could never hope to keep up.

R3 combat skill boost + combat sense? not amazing. but def nice. or, R2 combat boost, combat sense, mystic armor 1.meh,

yup. "meh".

nice. not exactly awe-inspiring. it's helpful, no doubt. but it's nothing so impressive that i'm inclined to believe for a second that the street samurai is so far behind as to never ever under any circumstances hope to be able to catch up some day.

in fact, i'm not even particularly inclined to believe that the street samurai will be terribly far behind on day one in that area of specialization, nor am i particularly inclined to believe that the street samurai can't make up for that slightly higher level of specialization with a whole heck of a lot of 'ware that lets him bring a whole lot of utility to the group.

people keep acting as if the street samurai can't possibly function. the adept will be a bit faster (unless the street samurai manages to fit in better attributes elsewhere), and a tiny bit better in one or two things (as in, maybe as much as 2 dice better). based on the stuff at the start of this thread, you'd think it was impossible to build a street sam that was any good.

i fully expect a street samurai to have massively superior senses compared to your adept, be a heck of a lot tougher, probably be a bit superior in a few athletics-related areas, and have maybe one or two other special tricks he can bring to the party.

the exact numbers may not be identical, but the street samurai is not exactly looking useless.

1.5PP for 3 die to a combat skill has always been one of the draws of an Adept. There's generally no other way to get such a huge bonus.

Initiation is NOT more expensive. The costs you give are exactly what it cost in 4th Edition as well. Also, Initiation was ALWAYS capped at Magic Attribute in 4th Edition as well, but you could raise your Magic Attribute (and can in 5th as well). As well, an Adept in 4th Edition that Initiated also had the choice (as an optional rule) to replace their Metamagic with a Power Point. The Geas trick was not in Core for 4th Edition either. It came in the Street Magic Book. Did you even PLAY 4th Edition?

EDIT: SHould have read more before posting, as I was preempted by many others. Oh well, Point still stands.

I feel he did not, though he was shilling for Storm Front. (Best sourcebook since 3rd lol)

That's not really saying much, mind you.

There's a lot of 'meh' to 'sweet jesus kill it with fire' to 'WAR' quality sourcebooks for 4e.

Yeah, I had to laugh about that too. Well, if you like the Fucking Mary-Sue Corps maybe, and don't mind incoherent writing and glaringly bad spelling.


There is no equivalent to being hacked without a viable means of defense yourself (either reliy on other characters or die) for the adept as the streetsam gets slapped with if they want actual, tangible boni from much of their gear.

Suddenly, I'm curious whether the gunslinger adept and brawling adept are as blatantly violating the character creation rules as the street samurai is.

I'll have to go do some math, but so far we're 3/3 with the pregens being built wrong somehow.

The Smuggler and Technomancer are both buggered up too. The smuggler's got an extra 1.8 essence, and the Technomancer archetype has a Complex Form (Data Mask) that is not from the Complex Form list in the Technomancer section.

Rules changes after they were done in those two cases.

The Brawling Adept's Critical Strike (Unarmed) (2) was from when Critical wasn't capped. Switching the second one to Clubs should fix it.

Data Mask was in the early Technomancer rules, but looks like those got switched in final editing as well. I'll have to go dig in to the final final rules and replace Data Mask with another.

(Those are two of mine, so direct any issues my way and I'll try and figure out what happened.)

Wakshaani covered his Brawler Adept allready, on Gunslinger Adept nothing jumps out on a cursory glance except that he has Yamaha Raiden witch isn't available in chargen(14F)

Yay, the last volley of rule changes went in right before printing, changing a few things. My early copy of gear, for instance, has Muscle Replacement at 75,000 instead of 25,000, while thr Bounty Hunter was made with all gear at +50% cost instead of only adjusting lifestyle, so should have a ton of cash left.

Once the official errata is up, I want to go in and correct the archetypes to make everything nice and correct. A few small errors here and there, one or two big ones (Street sam had *how* much cash?!) but enough to be annoying. Archetypes shouldn't be things that a starting player can't create!

you need to be online to get the actual dicepool bonus from perception from cybereyes. you don't need to be online to be able to use the various types of vision you can put into your cybereyes.

you don't need to be online at all to get the basic function of wired reflexes (only if you want to stack them with reaction enhancers, as dumb as that rule is, would you need them).

you don't need to be online to benefit from the many armour and body bonuses you can get from 'ware.

you don't need to be online to get your 1 dice from a reflex recorder (meaning the adept is in fact only getting 2 dice over the street sam, possibly less if augmentation gives the samurai higher agility).

the samurai will be nearly as fast (+2d6 initiative +2 reflex vs +3d6 and +3), and a heck of a lot tougher, with almost as good of a dicepool in that one combat skill, potentially superior dice pools in several other skills, and will likely be better at seeing things (goggles: capacity 6. cybereyes rating 4: capacity 16) and hearing things (same basic scenario as the eyes, plus a few extra options), and can have ultrasound implanted.

yes, the adept can do one or two things better than the samurai. but the samurai can also do other things better than the adept can do. eventually, given infinite progression, the adept will be able to outscale the samurai. but that's going to take a long time.

Everything a Samurai can be is a subset of everything that an Adept can be.

If you want to draw a little Venn Diagram, you'll find the Samurai is sitting inside of the Adept.

So, like, why is this hard to grok? The logical progression of Adepts getting Cyberware is a product of the fact that Adepts, by their nature, get the best of both worlds. Why would you ever seriously discuss this topic without acknowledging that?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

By the rules as written, can you make a standard Samurai who outclasses a standard Adept all else being equal (same race, same priorities excepting for one having to chose magic)? I kind of doubt it since sams are so limited by what they can purchase but Adepts are not.

Specialization versus generalization.

You need them for the perception bonus dice, which are a lot more powerful than what an adept can have with googles (Lowlight/IR/Magnification/Flare comp can be comfortably fitted into googles). Modifying the Limit will do little good for normal pools - the likelyhood the limit even kicks in are low with devcent weapons. Yeah, no ultrasound, but that's where Motion Sense saves the day and is even more effective. Except for soakware, the sam gets a crappier solution than the adept, unless he either uses bioware or opens himself up to be hacked to bits with no meaningful defense.


Since the adept can also be better than the sam in perception and initiative, no, that does not apply. Also, the adept can comfortably multiclass as an aspected mage, too, at no great handicap to his adept skills.

it's going to distract a lot of his available resources (ie skill points and attribute points) from elsewhere, and it's going to require that he spend a higher priority. and if the adept is better in perception and initiative, he's probably not going to also be better at that combat skill. and, uhh... right now, there is no motion sense as far as i can tell.

also, why the hell wouldn't the street sam also use bioware too?

adepts don't really get a lot that makes them stand out as being head and shoulders above a street samurai. unless they start combining the best features of both street sam and adept, but that's nothing new.

@ wired: so in order for the adept to be better, the adept needs to reduce his potential as an adept so that he can also be a street samurai? and somehow that makes adepts so awesomely superior?

adepts will be better in one or two areas than a street samurai, at chargen, by a fairly small amount. a street samurai will be almost as good at those specific areas, and greatly superior in other areas.

an adept that uses 'ware can get a bit better than either type can alone, but also has to balance both sides of the equation... has to worry about keeping his magic up as well as keeping his 'ware in good shape.

in a later book, *could* adepts get a major boost that would make them just flat-out better than street samurai? maybe. but right now, that is not the case.

(mystic adepts, on the other hand, are kinda ridiculous... i'm definitely going to have to wait and see what they change with that, because right now they're getting an awful lot of goodies...)

How do you reduce your potential as an Adept? The potential, by definition, is limitless.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Why does the Street Sam archetype have an LMG but no Heavy Weapons skill? And did I miss something that allows cyberlimbs to exceed the augmentation maximum?

Cyberlimbs technically dont have augmented maximums.
You can customizr them up to natural maximum and then add at max +3 as enchantment.

Has anyone calculated the money spend for all sample characters? has anyone a list?

I have the worksheets for the ones I made, but not the others.

Are you willing to share?

Honestly I don't think the notes on how they were made will do much good, as I understand it there were alot of last minute changes made in the sprint to get the book to the printers. I think we'd be better off building them as they are and seeing what about them is broken.

I am only interested in the money spend (I could calculate for myself, but I am actually too lazy )

Even that isn't quranteed to be correct, as the street sam shows(i kinda doubt his gear load out was worth 600k + when he was build)

Not sure why this was directed at me, but okay.

Further fun, the Ganger has a used Cyberarm, which is acceptable according to the RAW, but not according to Hardy.

Wouldn't have mentioned it if I wasn't.

But it'll be a bit yet. I have to send in a PDF (Due yesterday, ack!) and then switch gears for a Missions mission, so, my tomorrow is gonna by tied up with a LOT of typing. I need to knock out around 8000 words by Saturday. Not a huge load, but one that'll squoosh my freetime a bit.

Pretty sure it was intended as a reply to me. And that's when we haven't had the same avatar for quite some time now ...

Ah, got it...
Indeed...

honestly, looking at it now, i'm wondering if i accidentally hit multiquote on your post or something then went and posted an answer to something else... i don't think i was ever looking at your post and feeling like it desperately needed a reply specific to it...

No worries...