So, I've been working on a matrix scenario. I built myself a techno and decided to start with something simple - namely ripping off the example in the book on page 232.

My first thought was literally just doing the same thing, just as a test. Turns out...the example is either wrong, or there's something I'm missing.

Matrix perception tells us, on page 235, that



So from that, there are three sorts of icons we can spot automagically: devices, hosts, and icons you've personally marked. The example on page 232 says,



which leaves me confused. Do you automagically spot the icons of personas and files that share the same owner marks as the device? I couldn't find that in the rules, but maybe I missed a sentence. It seems to be you'd need a matrix perception check to see the personas and files, and that meshes with 'Spot a target icon you’re looking for.' in the Matrix Perception chart, but the example doesn't have that. (Maybe he'd already done his matrix perception check?) But what if you don't have a target, and just want to poke around? Then it seems you still require a Matrix Perception check, which does state on page 241



So if you see a commlink and just want to root around, you still have to ask some questions, like 'What files are on this device'? Then I run into the issue of what exactly do you get? Just the file name? You obviously don't see the contents of the file, since derp, that's what the Edit File action is for, but then couldn't you just have the file name be anything? Or is there a way to verify without copying that that's the data you need? In the example on page 232, it just states that the decker saw the file (presumably with a matrix perception check, though that isn't mentioned), then put a mark on it, cracked the protection, then copied it. (Though technically, it seems that seeing whether a file has protection on it and gauging the rating of that protection is another Matrix Perception check.)

How did he know it was the correct file before copying? Or if you have to place a mark on every single file (Just look at a given person's facebook albums, maybe people have dozens of albums and hundreds of pictures) that would take ages. You see the icon of hundreds of scrolls or glowing cubes or whatever, what distinguishes one from the other without actually opening up and looking?

Set your reality filter to view thumbnail

I all seriousness that's probabley not far off, given the standardised iconographic rules of the Matrix. Also there is the fact the system is written to be playable in a quick fashion instead of the longer system of say SR3 (where that sort of thing was part of the ruleset) and stopping to make a roll for every last detail is more the territory of RoleMaster.

I tend to think of Matrix Perception like meat world perception. Only roll it if what you're looking for is actually trying to hide. Or, say if there is a massive amount of data that's beyond your deck's reality filters. Looking at the files on someone's commlink wouldn't do it (unless they were intentionally hidden), but in the example where BK breaks into the host in the book, I'd probably have him roll perception at a low difficulty to spot the particular file he wants in the potential mountain of data he's looking at.

Except by RAW, you only autospot devices (and presumably personas using that device?), hosts, and icons you've personally marked, within 100 metres.

Amusingly, that means that you do not autospot technomancers (since they're device-less personas.)

Again, I have to go back to meatworld perception here. If something isn't hiding, there is no point in making someone look for it. You're just slowing down the game at that point. Data is what the Matrix is made out of. If you're not seeing the data that's not being hidden, such as files, personas, and so on, what exactly are you seeing when you jack in?

Whatever RAW says. I can understand the desire for houseruling it to be like Matrix Perception, but that's not what the book itself says it's like. (And since I'm discussing the mechanics of the game, which use the printed rules, I go by those.)

Well, going by the initial example, it does appear that if the device isn't running silently, you can just see the file. They don't mention a perception test in the example, so I wouldn't make my players role for perception. But I guess you don't put much significance on the examples?

No, because the example clashes with RAW. I would say he's rolled the perception test beforehand and that's not included in the example, so it's incomplete.

But the rules don't say you have to roll to find a file. They don't mention it at all, as far as I can tell. So where is the clash?

In that the rules state that only devices, hosts, and icons you've marked are automatically spotted without a check. Do you want me to elaborate and repost the section of the rules that are titled Matrix Perception once again?

Your deck or commlink actually knows where everything is. It is you reality filter or your decks representation of what is there that is failing you. Read the part about what is on the grid. You need the overall context of the system before you worry Bout the perception rules.

P.217
"The first piece of assistance comes from your com-mlink, which automatically filters out the least interest-ing icons. Do you want to know the virtual location of every music player in the world? Right, neither do I. So the Matrix will usually show you an icon for an individ-ual's personal area network (PAN), not every device in that network (although it makes exceptions for inter-esting or dangerous devices in that network, such as a gun). Additionally, the farther away devices are from you in the real world, the dimmer their icons are in the Matrix; this is partly because your commlink figures the farther ones aren't as interesting to you, but mostly be-cause the connection is a bit slower due to the distance. Matrix gear renders the far-off devices and personas as dim, muted, or flickering icons. Also cutting down on the visual noise is the fact that some icons are deliber-ately hidden from view, such as locks and other security devices, baby monitors, maintenance monitors, and of course people who prefer not to be seen."

Can you get me a page quote? So when wondering about how Matrix perception works, I shouldn't be looking at the rules titles 'Matrix Perception'?

That's fairly typical of Shadowrun.

So you skipped the Matrix Basics and Virtual Visions sections right at the beginning of the chapter?

I didn't, but I don't see rules for spotting things in the Matrix there. (What could that mechanic possibly be called? Not Matrix Perception, surely, that's far too obvious.)

That's the problem. Read the whole matrix chapter, start to finish. That'll clear up your problem. And the page number for his quote is right at the top of his quote.

So the quote there says that the Matrix makes PANs and 'dangerous' devices visible. Still says zip about files or the mechanical way you would implement actually looking at stuff in the Matrix. But what's this? It seems, the devs, in their infinite wisdom, included a paragraph called 'Matrix Perception'! Would that be the mechanical implementation of seeing stuff in the Matrix? It seems so!

Let's see, what does the Matrix Perception rules say? It says you can only autospot devices, hosts, and icons you've marked! How curious!

Okay, okay, you got me. You're clearly a troll and I fell for it. My bad. Well done. Enjoy the rest of your day. I'm done here.

Trolling involves reference and using the rules? I must be one hell of an epic troll.

Maybe this is like that terrible wording concerning the progressive recoil thing that's been debated back and forth. Maybe "icons of devices" means both the device icon and the icons of things belonging to the device. It's a terrible interpretation, but who knows (see progressive recoil wording).

It also says 'interesting'. If you're looking for a file, that would be of interest to you, right? Unless there is some clarification, I'm going with whatever method involves more speedy hacking, which I think was something of a design goal this go around.

I agree about the confusing wording, but the Matrix Perception action on page 241 lists 'any files it may be carrying' as an option on the test, so the intent does seem that you should make a matrix perception check to see what files are actually on a commlink.

Precisely what Jack is saying. You ought to interpret the rules in such a way that increases their playability and ease of use, not diminishes it. And troll is perhaps the wrong word. You're definitely arguing for the sake of arguing, and not trying to find a solution to your problem, though.

I ought to interpret? Having rules being 'interpretable' lead to table arguments, often from people who know the rules. (People known as rule lawyers, which I've been known to be on occasion.) But, seeing as I paid money for the the rules, I should be able to use them with minimal interpretation, no? Otherwise, why bother with a new system at all, if I'm just gonna 'interpret' (read: GM fiat) the rules however I wish?

theoretically, if he had a mark on the device, he would have a mark on anything slaved to the device (or anything slaved to the device it is slaved to... whichever it is, marks are propagated from slave to master, and vice versa).

not sure how that would apply to files though. i don't think you can slave files. it's possible the example was just glossing some stuff over so that it could explain what it was focused on.

I don't have a book in front of me, but the only quotes I see in the thread indicate a Matrix Perception Test is required is: "Beyond this distance, you need to make
a Matrix Perception Test (p. 241) to find a specific icon." Can you provide any other quotes that deal with Matrix Perception Tests? Not being a dick here, but without context, it looks like that rule wouldn't apply to things within handshake distance (unless running silent, I guess). Otherwise, your deck's filters pick whatever you want out. I don't know. I can see it going either way. Seems weird that anyone can randomly see files on your commlink, although I guess that's what encryption is for...

Well, of course you should interpret the rules. How else are you going to use them? Now, depending on how clear the rules are, the available interpretations a person could reasonably make could be very broad, or very narrow. Furthermore, what benefit do you get from having a player roll for something as routine as finding an unhidden file? I could see making him do it if he was under a time limit (Get this file in this many combat turns or *insert bad thing here* happens.), but for something as basic and routine as the example in the book? Why bother?

There's no encryption any more, the best you can do is use the Edit File action to protect your files, but that only adds an extra step, since both actions (Crack File and Edit File) require 1 mark. I agree it's vague, but my reading is that you need to make a Matrix Perception check to see what sort of files are on a 'link, mainly because it's not in the list of things you would otherwise auto-spot



Because I'm not arguing how to play the game, that's up to each table. What I am arguing is the printed text we all share.

Really? That is odd, then, that they have a Program called Encryption, and even tell you what it does.



AS for the Text that we share...

Icons are one of six things...
Personas, Devices, PANs, Files, Hosts, MARKs.

Now for the Quote:


First, Since a Persona requires a Device, I assume that the Persona qualifies as a Device (It seems to lead in that direction, anyways)
Also, You automatically keep track of Any Marks you have set [on any Icon] regardless of Distance as well.

Now look at the List of things you can discover about an Icon you have perceived with a Matrix Perception Roll... Note that there are several instances where it references an attribute of a FILE (Last edit, whether it has a data bomb, whether it is protected), so you MUST obviously know that the file is there, BUT... Does that actually reveal your File with no roll?

I guess you could argue that the very first item in the box: "Spot a target icon you’re looking for" would cover the file (since FILES are ICONS), and maybe it does. But it is ambiguous. Personally, I would go with that, myself, and use my first "Hit" to identify the file in question (though honestly, that seems a BIT TOO EASY in my opinion), but not everyone will likely use that interpretation.

Just spitballin' here, testing to see if I am understanding the issue, and my reading of it, so if I don't please feel free to correct me.
Thanks

No, that's how I read it as well. You don't autospot files without a Matrix Perception check. And good catch on the Encryption program, I'd forgotten it, but the function of encryption in SR4 has been changed to file protection in SR5.

"Most individuals have multiple electronic devices
on them at once, and having icons for each one show
up would provide too much visual clutter in the Matrix."

"Some devices are
not merged into the single PAN icon; if an individual is
carrying a wireless-enabled gun—or any other wireless
device that might kill you—it will show up separately so
that it can be identified rapidly. Unless, of course, the
user has gone to the trouble to hide that icon, but that’ll
be covered later."

"Files have icons that are smaller than persona
icons, typically small enough to fit in the palm of the
virtual hand. All file icons have a default appearance in
the Matrix—a glowing cube or other polyhedron that
can be opened to reveal its contents—but few Matrix
users are so lazy and uninspired as to leave their files’
icons with such a boring look. A text file might have
an icon that is a book, a scroll, a data pad, or even
stone tablets. Sound files look like speakers, musical
notes or instruments, and so forth, while video might
look like a film projector, a trid set, or an old-fashioned
movie screen. Again, form suggests function is the
rule in the Matrix."

You use Matrix Perception to find the Icon you are interested in as it is outside the 100 meter range. It has a bunch of glowing cubes on it. What are they?

Once you spot the icon you are interested in, that icon is no longer at range and you do not need to have additional Matrix Perception tests to sport "obvious" stuff related to the Icon.

I agree, but even if you're within 100 meter range, you need a Matrix Perception check to spot the glowing cubes with shit in them in the first place, unlike devices and shit that show up without a check.

That's the point.

There doesn't appear to be a way to explicitly hide a file. Here's how I see data protection working.

Files are meant to be used, so your average files on a host are simply protected by the host. Any host will have an array of public files that anyone licensed to be on the host can access. Access to these is generally limited to legitimate users, as IC and security deckers exist to police the area from hackers. Public files would be anything that visitors to the host would want to commonly use -- the menu at a restaurant, the train schedule at the local station, the virtual pamphlet for the new product line, etc.

Protected files (Edit File action) are literally protected from everyone on the host who isn't a hacker (Crack File requires an Attack attribute, which commlinks don't have) or a legitimate decker. These would be files that internal personnel would need to use on a regular basis -- spreadsheets, meeting reports, etc.

Files that need even more security can have data bombs in addition to their protected status. Locked and trapped. These would be files that need to be used on a regular basis but is worth potentially wrecking someone's interface and/or destroying the file to keep it out of unauthorized hands. Financial data, research data, typical run targets.

Files that need even even more more security can be stashed in the archive except while in use. The archive is currently inaccessible until the Matrix book comes out.

So public files -- you just see, and can Edit File.
Protected files -- you see, but need to Crack, then Edit.
Extra-protected files -- you see, but need to Matrix Perception (to find the bomb), then you need to Disarm the bomb, then you need to Crack the file, then Edit File.
Archived files -- no joy.

Then there are extra tricks you can do. If you want to hide a file, the best way is to store it on a device that has a Sleaze rating and is connected to the host. A secure lab might, for example, have a host with protected, bombed, and archived files floating around, but then also have a research terminal (cyberdeck) running Stealth hiding inside the host. Then the file could be protected, bombed, whatever, on that terminal.

So in that instance a hacker would have to break into the host, look for the hidden device, hack that device for marks to check its file listing, then matrix perception the appropriate file, disarm the bomb, crack the protection, and copy the file.

In that case the hacker is looking at 7 complex actions minimum to get one file, which is going to potentially run up a huge OS.

Of course the hacker could simply find the device in the host, run a Trace on it, and then locate the physical terminal and go plug in directly..

My reading of it would also be you cannot see Files if the are present via a Device/Persona (which means they would be visable if they were say hosted Cloud Fashion in a Host for example if you were also in the Host) and would require a Matrix Perception test. However it only requires 1 hit to see the File Icons. The subject was also raised somewhere of how would you know what a File is (iconography aside) and I said "Thumbnails". However more seriously there is nothing in the Matrix Perception rules that prevents you dividing the successes of a roll between the things you've spotted.

So to revisit the example concept at the beginning. You're bored and spit the waitresses Commlink Icon, being curious you Matrix Perception (9dice sounds reasonable) and get the average of 3 hits. 1st Hit reveals the Files on the Device and the Iconography rules show a few music files, text files, video files ect. With 2 hits left over you can get more details on 2 of those Files, assuming that iconography + reality filter doesn't straight away give you what you're after. The open "rules" of the Matrix after all are meant to apply intuitive response to imagery (just like thumbnail view/album covers on the iPad ect) you're only really going to need that Perception test for files named ambiguously or with non-standard iconographic logic.

it is worth noting that some of the actions required to get that protected file are not going to generate OS. you only generate OS from actions that have sleaze or attack as limits, so for example you can do matrix perception as many times as you want and it won't increase your OS.

it is therefore perfectly legal to disarm a data bomb, because that is limited by firewall. it is also perfectly legal to copy the file, as that is data processing. finding the right file can be done with a matrix search once you're on the host (long interval though), and is data processing.

cracking file protection is, however, illegal, as is getting a mark on the file in the first place.

p241 clearly speaks of "an object", not as many as you have hits:

this is how ill be doing it. makes sense, intuitive, and consistent with the rules. why make matrix stuff harder. you want it simpler, not more complicated. i just read the matrix chapter today and i love the new simplified rules. really well done devs!

Indeed it dos Razhul, but you also detect multiple hidden objects with the roll and can then spend hits. So much easier and better for both game concept and ease of play to divvy up hits that way rather than. Locate all hidden and then use all remaining hits on just one object, that's counter intuitive.

You're going straight into houserule-land then, I'd like to point out.

(a) I cannot find anywhere that a Matrix Perception test tells you exactly how many hidden icons there are and (b) adding the convenience to apply your Matrix Perception hits to several icons is equally not RAW.

I understand that it makes it easier but you have to keep in mind that what you decide to make easier for yourself will also apply to the spiders/hackers coming to get you.

I think it's fairly clear (bold emphasis mine)



So you make your roll for your Matrix Perception Complex Action and then spend your hits on the list above.

Also: (again emphasis mine)



Which leads to:



Suggesting that that one hit reveals Icons running Silent and then you pick one to look at through the opposed test to actually "Spot". This according to the "chart/list" costs a Hit to do too.

In all cases the descriptors use "a" or "an" as opposed to "the" and nothing stating that a matrix perception test has to be focused on a single icon only (Just that one IS required to detect for Silent Running Icons within 100m and any icons outside 100m costs you a Hit to spot individual Icons instead, in which case then it really helps to know what you're looking for.)

Example as I read it RAW.

You're a decker and you know there is a 'Lock' device 200M up the street that you need to spring for you're team. For whatever reason approaching closer isn't an option. There is also a security camera every at 100m intervals in this area. The target is between two such cameras giving the decker 3 device targets as those camera's will want to be dealt with too.

The Lock Icon is running silent as a standard security measure, but you know it's there, same for the cameras. You roll out your Matrix Perception and come up with 5 Hits. Now according to the chart and the wording the first thing you ask your GM is "Are there any Silent Icons within 100M. Because your position is between 2 cameras in their spacing you get a "Yes, 2". Wanting to be sure you spend 2 of your 5 hits to get the Spot roll on both cameras (and because they're just cameras you beat both). Now you spend 1 Hit to get the spot roll for the Lock device you know is at over 100M away from you (because you know something of what you're looking for this is allowed, Ref:chart/list. This would have also allowed you to ignore one of the two camera's earlier because you're existing knowledge of what and where your looking for make sit easier). You spend the other Hit to Spot the Silent camera that's 250M away. This leaves you with 1 hit to use in whatever way seems best.

The break down of the Matrix Perception (p.241) action should clear this up:



So you can auto spot a device/persona within 100m then a single hit on a perception test lets you know what files it has (which includes programs it may have available as programs are files - though I wouldn't let you know which ones are active - maybe spend one hit per slot to see what's currently in it)

The only thing is whether that first hit spent allows you to know what the files are, going by the list of things on p.235 I interpret it to mean that you will know what any files using an obvious/standard iconography are but would need to do a separate perception test to see file contents.

Example:
Dave the Decker is sitting in the diner waiting for Steve the Samurai and Michelle the Mage to turn up. While flicking through the menu his deck notices a couple of new devices come within the 100m range - and since one of them is a pistol he decides to check the newcomer out out, he makes his perception test (targeting the commlink) and gets 4 hits and spends them so:

1. The programs being run
2. The Firewall rating
3. The Devcice rating
4. The most recently accessed file on the commlink

Seeing that the most recent file is an image file "Target" Dave gets paranoid and attempts to view the file so he can be sure his evening isn't about to go a little bit wrong...