Problem is, used alphaware costs less than standard ware, uses 6% less essence and is more easily available (availability -2).

i fail to see how that is a problem, honestly . .
it's one of the few things mundanes get for them, that magical and emergent characters can't do . .
ah, i see, there is the whole problem!

As I recall in the fluff there are plenty of story hooks and other tools for a GM to use for some one with too much "used" ware. Black Clinics, orginized crime, that annoying hum. If some one wants to take advantage of the cheap high quality ware, you just have to make them pay in another fashion.

A: What they said *points up*
B: What I said.

Well, if SR was a videogame, used alphaware would be an exploit. Or, like game designers say: a "hidden dominant strategy".



I'd rather not screw my players over for choosing the logical, optimal solution. It's kind of a dick move.

Except its a piece of ware that was torn out of another living human being either postmortum or not, legely or not. Black clinics make a killing off this (no pun intended.) What happens when you find out your used ware is actually evidence in a murder trial? Or perhapse your wired reflexes has a tendency to turn wireless on or off on its own.
Its cheaper for a reason chummer. Its suppose to be glitchy. Saying its a dick move to introduce elements of role play into a role playing game is just saying that you want to play a video game where there is a clear cut dominant strat. I mean, SR5 was made with the concept of everything has a cost right?

Excellent find.

In SR4, those were not included as part of used alphaware. Glitchy ware was a negative quality and items used as part of a crime is an additional price modifier. By RAW, used alphaware included none of the drawbacks you listed. The only reason it was so good was because whoever wrote that part didn't know that applying 120% to something after applying 80% to something does not equal 100%.

In SR5, Used Alphaware means getting ware for the same essence cost, 2 lower availability and 90% of the price. The book even says this:


This clearly states that used ware is a grade of its own, and not combineable. Nor should it be combineable, since the numbers are clearly not balanced.

Once again:


What you're supporting here is the bubble gum and baling wire of game design fixes. The proper solution is to adjust the numbers so they work.

yeah, except I have a hard time beliving that is not the actual intent of the rules (seeing as they have been so clear on everything else so far.) especially considering that it states that only alpha and standard are avalible at character creation. The logic of banning a lower grad ware at chargen is beyond me.

While I can't argue about what is written in black and white, I will say that amplifying information will be needed.

I believe you misunderstood me. I've got nothing against used cyberware at chargen. I am, however, firmly against allowing used alphaware with the current RAW. And quite frankly, there's little gain in writing rules specifically to balance used alphaware. Just get rid of it like they did, and you're good to go.

except I seem to recall you saying that it specificaly states only alpha and standard at chargen. Some where the ball was dropped on the used ware rules discription. And where you see little to be gained, I see an entire world to be gained. But then again I guess i'm a dick GM.

The rules say this:


Someone in this thread said that Hardy said used ware wasn't intended to be available at chargen. Me personally, I was only commenting on used alphaware.

It applies equally to used alpha grade. Just getting rid of anything that's a little weird instead of just number tweaking to fix it is literally the absolute worst way to go about game design. That's not hyperbole, by the way. I'm trying to imagine something worse than that, and I can't. World of Synnabar's "screw it, throw it in!" is far better than this "screw it, throw it out!" plan.

A lot of what is "good" comes down to how much you value Limits. Hitting lower limits is quite easy if you have high skills, but high limits (5 an up) are remarkably hard to hit without serious number twinking. At 20 dice you statistically will get about 6-7 hits on average, and getting to 20 die in one area isn't easy. Aside from primary character talents (Shooting, melee, spellcasting, decking, whatever) I believe die pools of 10-12 should be sufficient for most running needs. Other than Elite level 6 Tir Ghosts which you likely won't run into, your normal opposition likely won't have any dice pools higher than the 10-12 range barring some extreme outliers.

Not even the Weapon Specialist. Yayy!

I would make used high-grade 'Ware progressively WORSE. After all, it's been optimized for someone else's physiology. Standard used 'ware is still fairly off the shelf and generic, but used Delta should be either completely incompatible or nearly so, with a massive hunk of extra essence accordingly. OTOH it would sell dirt cheap as you'd have to be really desperate to buy it...

As I recall in previous editions you couldn't get used beta or delta.

That Used Cyber rule got thrown *right* out the door in my games. It's a really silly rule that you can't get it in chargen, and I can see no point to it. (That's the thing-if i can't see a point to a rule, I don't use it. Some rules may seem odd to me, but if I look closely, I can see *why* they did it.)

This and the Knowledge Skill Change are easily two of the quickest things thrown out the door. (I'm actually working on a little list of houserules.)

And yes-the Archetypes are nice, though I do think the Tank is out of place(I'd have preferred a Vehicle Rigger there instead), and I'm not fond of the Gunslinger Adept, and decided to rebuild him so he's more on point with a dude who'd be flying up buildings, doing gymnastics, popping off shots(in other words, the remake has much better attributes so he's not flimsier than the traditionally 'flimsy' roles of Technomancer and Occult Investigator. Thinking from a new player PoV, in any case.) It was really the only one I found was built, IMO, sorta off-the others seem rather nicely solid.

I've just assumed that it was a typo, so I still treat it as (Log+Int)x3 for my home games. I believe the number should've been increased, not decreased.

Instead of being easier to find, shouldn't used cyberware be harder to find? You should be able to get used cyberware in any of the other grades, but it should be less available than getting new stuff. I'm undecided on it costing more essence. Instead, roll a die to determine if one of the following happens: higher essence cost, bad history, glitchy. The way to fix this would be to sell it back and get replacement 'ware. That should take only a little money, time, and maybe a headache or two while running with the stuff.

This. Used 'ware is all nice and dandy, but it seems to be just a way to circumvent the availability-restriction at chargen. Just get rid of the -4-availablity-modifier and you're golden.
As for used alpha- or higher-grade ware: Just treat it as one grade lower. (So your used alpha-ware may have been higher grade when it was built, but it's not SOTA anymore. You get what you pay for.)

You pay for it in Essence, though. The extra Essence can add up.

So even if you say, get a cheaper set of Wired 2 at chargen(if you allow Used), you're paying 3.75 essence-more than *half* for a single piece-and getting a...30k-ish discount for it. It's harsh, but there if someone wants it. (limbs end up costing 1.25 a pop instead of 1. I don't see where Used Cyberware is this *super incredible* deal. It's nice if you're a super-budget ganger sam(and even makes sense), but you can't get as much of it, and Essence, IMO, is one of the more valuable stats since you can't get it back. You can fill it LATER with more expensive alpha or beta grade ware, sure, but still.

You *should* be able to circumvent the Availability if you're willing to pay the extra cost of your soul. Really, you're *literally* paying extra soul cost for this stuff.

I'm sorry, but it's not a typo.

It's one of the things I tried raisin' a fuss over (and, in fact, that I brought up thinking it was a typo, myself), but the call was made well above my pay grade.

But have you tried wetwork?

I think that there should only be a chance of higher essence cost, and it should be fixable by replacement. I don't make the rules though.

At your table, you do.

Well that's a bummer. Thanks for trying though!

There is no such thing as used alphaware. Used ware is graded as Used, which is a separate grade, not a modifier.


It might have been Alpha-grade when installed in the original user, but after being yanked out of them in whatever condition that their death left it in, it probably isn't operating anywhere near as nicely.

Yes, thank you for spelling the ruling that I'm completely aware of because it's the one I'm calling stupid in this exact argument. Your complete lack of help has been noted.