Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: SR5 and the loss of signal range
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Redjack
The 100m arbitrary range for mutual signal range that was introduced in SR5 (as well as the loss of the term itself) is a mechanic that simply creates more loathing that it fixes. Add to that the fact that some devices (example smartgun) formerly had a signal rating of 0 (range 1m). Now those devices, formerly with *reasonable* security, are pretty much unsecure by design. Sure you could (in SR4) get to it once you compromised the owner's comlink (and I have to nasty effect as a GM), but as a device it wasn't even visible to anyone unless (1) you were in mutual signal range [1m] or (2) hacked your way into the owner's comlink. Now it is a becon on the matrix begging to be marked.

I guess my issue is, as I think about incorporating this mechanic into our campaign games or using it in Missions and it simply seems clunky, arbitrary, and simply put: a bad mechanic.
Sendaz
So you would reintroduce signal ranges then?

So would it look like this:

I have a commlink and a smartgun.

I assume the commlink would still be visible on the 100 m mark but the smartgun would be have a range of 0(1m) but still left it wifi on for the bonuses.

So if I link my smartgun through the commlink I gain the added defences of the commlink, but also take the risk that the commlink stands out?

Whereas if I keep the smartgun feeding solely to my smartgoggles or hardwired, I would be semi-secure in the sense the hacker would have to be much closer to affect me, but I would also be without the stronger defences of the commlink/deck/

Or were you suggesting it in another manner?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
"Sokath, His Eyes Uncovered" (Comprehension Dawns)
.
*sigh*
.
"Shaka, When the Walls Fell" (Task Utimately ending in Failure)
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2013, 09:22 AM) *
*sigh*

Wasn't that supposed to be a *shrug*™? nyahnyah.gif

or did I hash it that badly?
Redjack
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 08:18 AM) *
So you would reintroduce signal ranges then?
Yes

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 08:18 AM) *
but also take the risk that the commlink stands out?
Comlink already stands out. It would stand out no more, no less.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 08:18 AM) *
Whereas if I keep the smartgun feeding solely to my smartgoggles or hardwired
That was not possible in SR4. It had to go through the comlink for processing.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2013, 09:22 AM) *
"Sokath, His Eyes Uncovered" (Comprehension Dawns)
.
*sigh*
.
"Shaka, When the Walls Fell" (Task Utimately ending in Failure)

Ten Internets to you, sir. That is one of my favorite TNG episodes.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 10:33 AM) *
That was not possible in SR4. It had to go through the comlink for processing.

Yes I know, I was asking if this is what you were wanting to introduce. *shrugs*™

So you were just wanting the individual low range icons not visible at a distance unless they close the gap or hack the comm, which then reveals all the goodies to play with?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 07:26 AM) *
Wasn't that supposed to be a *shrug*™? nyahnyah.gif

or did I hash it that badly?


Poor Hashing on your part. That's okay, it happens. nyahnyah.gif
(Couple of keys stuck, so I had to alter it a bit)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 24 2013, 07:36 AM) *
Ten Internets to you, sir. That is one of my favorite TNG episodes.


Definitely one of the Best...
Shortstraw
To my sci-fi folder!
Jaid
the SR5 matrix works such that if a device has a path to the matrix, you can reach that device without hacking anything in between. so it doesn't much matter if the smartgun has a 1 m range or not... if it's connected to your commlink, it's connected to the matrix.
Vicar
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 08:09 AM) *
Sure you could (in SR4) get to it once you compromised the owner's comlink (and I have to nasty effect as a GM)


I guess I'm not seeing much difference between what you describe from SR4 and Slaving to your commlink (or even better, to your Decker's commlink) in SR5.
Redjack
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 24 2013, 09:34 AM) *
the SR5 matrix works such that if a device has a path to the matrix, you can reach that device without hacking anything in between. so it doesn't much matter if the smartgun has a 1 m range or not... if it's connected to your commlink, it's connected to the matrix.
QUOTE (Vicar @ Jul 24 2013, 09:49 AM) *
I guess I'm not seeing much difference between what you describe from SR4 and Slaving to your commlink (or even better, to your Decker's commlink) in SR5.
Both of these have the same response.

The smartgun was not reachable in SR4 without going through the comlink. It was not on the matix, it was on the PAN associated with the comlink., In SR5 everything on a PAN is now on the matrix. Subtle difference that actually makes a mountain of difference.
Jack VII
Caveat: Don't have the books yet, but I've read the commentary on this issue on the boards.

I kind of wish there was clarification of the 100m handshake deal. To me, that sounds more like a Bluetooth type connection, which (while wireless) isn't necessarily the same thing as being networked/part of the Matrix. It's kind of funny, I am currently dealing with this issue at work right now with portable scanners/printers which can be connected via wire, BlueTooth, or through our WiFi Network.

The way I see it, it seems like the comlink would be connected to the Matrix, while smarlinks, cybereyes, etc. would be bluetooth slaved to the commlink. If someone who is not in range for a handshake wants to mess with peripheral equipment, they would have to hack the commlink first, then use its connection to the other devices to cause problems. But, if a decker is within that handshake/bluetooth range, I do think they should gain an advantage for being danger close to said equipment. If that means they get to bypass the commlink, I'd be down with that.

Hell, we need more people screaming "Geek the Decker!!!"
Redjack
QUOTE (Vicar @ Jul 24 2013, 10:49 AM) *
I guess I'm not seeing much difference between what you describe from SR4 and Slaving to your commlink (or even better, to your Decker's commlink) in SR5.
Also, here is an example:

Both cases: Top end hacker sees mercenary. Mercenary has no cyberware and only has a comlink, trodes and pistol with smartgun.

SR4: Hacker scans scoring high enough to see hidden nodes. He only finds the comlink (he is not in mutual signal range so he cannot detect the smartgun).
SR5: Decker scans and detects two nodes. (The comlink and the smartgun).

QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 24 2013, 11:25 AM) *
I kind of wish there was clarification of the 100m handshake deal. To me, that sounds more like a Bluetooth type connection, which (while wireless) isn't necessarily the same thing as being networked/part of the Matrix. It's kind of funny, I am currently dealing with this issue at work right now with portable scanners/printers which can be connected via wire, BlueTooth, or through our WiFi Network.

The way I see it, it seems like the comlink would be connected to the Matrix, while smarlinks, cybereyes, etc. would be bluetooth slaved to the commlink. If someone who is not in range for a handshake wants to mess with peripheral equipment, they would have to hack the commlink first, then use its connection to the other devices to cause problems. But, if a decker is within that handshake/bluetooth range, I do think they should gain an advantage for being danger close to said equipment. If that means they get to bypass the commlink, I'd be down with that.
This.
KCKitsune
The SR5 mechanics for the Matrix were horribly written and break suspension of disbelief so badly that I will NOT go to SR5. Also the nerfing that cyberware took is so bad that SR5 is more Magicrun than Shadowrun. Why play a Samurai when being a Physad or better yet (by RAW) Mystic Adept. You get benefits without the limitations.

I'll stick with SR4, thanks.
Sendaz
So how close is your new handshake range to qualify to bypass the commlink?

You refer to signal 0 being 1m but in both SR4 and SR4A it lists Signal 0 as being 3m. A small difference but still the difference between being immediately in someones face or halfway across a room.
Jack VII
For my version, I'm fine with the 100m handshake. I think it would streamline everything by just saying a decker can directly hack any device that has some kind of wireless connection ("BT" or Matrix enabled) within 100m. Outside that range, they'd have to locate and hack into the commlink to get to the good stuff. It definitley puts realism on the side burner, but makes the decker a bit more useful in the in-person side of the game.
Redjack
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 11:48 AM) *
So how close is your new handshake range to qualify to bypass the commlink?
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 24 2013, 11:59 AM) *
For my version, I'm fine with the 100m handshake.
The problem here is that this is mutual signal range. In SR5, the smartgun is simply "on the matrix". Noise applies, but it can be attacked from anywhere, theoretically.
Jack VII
So basically, your problem isn't necessarily with a decker who is with the team hacking things within a reasonable range, but it's a decker 5000 miles away hacking some dude's smartgun system directly (even with noise). I agree with that, I don't like it.
Redjack
I also would prefer signal ranges return and the arbitrary 100m go away. I doesn't make any sort of sense because the range of the device is surely more than 100m (hell even crappy modern cell phones beat that).

And yea, I have now joined the club of "direct hacking of all combat devices" is a silly mechanic. In the right cases it makes sense, but there went the baby with the bath water...
Epicedion
Out of curiosity, how would a device have the power and bandwidth for a neural connection but somehow restrict its broadcasting range to 1 meter?
Redjack
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 12:43 PM) *
Out of curiosity, how would a device have the power and bandwidth for a neural connection but somehow restrict its broadcasting range to 1 meter?
That question doesn't follow the topic at hand. A better question is: Why would a device connecting via a wireless connection to your comlink need to be pumping out so much power as to make a connection up to connect 100m?
Jaid
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 24 2013, 11:46 AM) *
The SR5 mechanics for the Matrix were horribly written and break suspension of disbelief so badly that I will NOT go to SR5. Also the nerfing that cyberware took is so bad that SR5 is more Magicrun than Shadowrun. Why play a Samurai when being a Physad or better yet (by RAW) Mystic Adept. You get benefits without the limitations.

I'll stick with SR4, thanks.


in general, for SR5, augmented adept > pure street samurai > pure adept. this is essentially the same as in SR4, so you're really not getting better results.

the part where mystic adepts are ridiculously good is, on the other hand, definitely something new to SR5.

the adept will be slightly better in 1-2 things, the street sam will be almost as good in those same 1-2 things but can also be a nigh-unkillable brick wall plus has some added utility, and of course the augmented adept just grabs the most efficient options from both and makes them both look like chumps.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 01:58 PM) *
That question doesn't follow the topic at hand. A better question is: Why would a device connecting via a wireless connection to your comlink need to be pumping out so much power as to make a connection up to connect 100m?


100m is a passive automatic detection range, not the connection range. The connection range is hypothetically unlimited because everything piggybacks the Matrix.
Redjack
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 01:19 PM) *
100m is a passive automatic detection range, not the connection range. The connection range is hypothetically unlimited because everything piggybacks the Matrix.
I'm talking about direct connection. Everything else generates noise and requires routed traffic. As to 100m: That is still arbitrary silliness.
Jack VII
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 02:19 PM) *
100m is a passive automatic detection range, not the connection range. The connection range is hypothetically unlimited because everything piggybacks the Matrix.

I think that's RedJack's issue. Why would a smartgun system ever need to connect to anything more than 1-2 meters away (i.e. commlink or smartlink)? For me, it's something I am willing to accept in order to make deckers reasonably useful rather than spending multiple IP passes trying to hack a commlink to finally get to mess with stuff, particularly if they are in somewhat close physical proximity. I haven't played through yet, so maybe the no-Noise benefit is enough.

Since we're not talking about RAW, I'd even suggest making this a special function of a cyberdeck. In addition to illegal matrix functions, it could also be a piece of EW equipment that finds/fixes wireless devices and "jams them open" forcing them to broadcast connections at their highest range possible (in this case, 100m).
Sendaz
One thing that would happen if you reinstated signal ranges would be lack of clutter, which can be good and bad.

Say hacker is 50m away and sweeps for hidden icons for what ever strikes his fancy. If he passes he detects the lone hidden icon from the Comm link, the smart gun is out of his detection range for the moment.

Unless you are running a dummy commlink or something else in his range, he only has one icon to focus on.

Take this versus the current SR5 model he could potentially pick up several icons, for both the commlink and smartgun and whatever else your are running hot with, but he doesn't know which is which until he takes the next step.

So basically SR5 is using clutter as a defense? question.gif

QUOTE
Since we're not talking about RAW, I'd even suggest making this a special function of a cyberdeck. In addition to illegal matrix functions, it could also be a piece of EW equipment that finds/fixes wireless devices and "jams them open" forcing them to broadcast connections at their highest range possible (in this case, 100m).
And thus the 'Make them Holler' cyberattack was born. nyahnyah.gif
apple
So what is the signal range? Imagine you are in the desert, no grid, no satellite. How far can you connect to the next radio or drone?

SYL
Redjack
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 24 2013, 01:30 PM) *
Since we're not talking about RAW
You lost me here. When did we stop talking about RAW?
Jack VII
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 24 2013, 02:31 PM) *
So what is the signal range? Imagine you are in the desert, no grid, no satellite. How far can you connect to the next radio or drone?

SYL

I think 100m sounds reasonable for whatever generation Bluetooth we would be on in 207X wink.gif
Jack VII
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 02:34 PM) *
You lost me here. When did we stop talking about RAW?

My suggestions for how stuff should work aren't RAW, as far as I am aware. Your initial post just mentions that you don't like the 100m arbitrary direct connect range. I guess if we're talking RAW, the answer would be "too bad", right?

...and you're basically talking about a non-RAW concept by stating that smartlinks shouldn't be able to be hacked from across the planet. From what I can tell, that's RAW as well.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 02:28 PM) *
I'm talking about direct connection. Everything else generates noise and requires routed traffic. As to 100m: That is still arbitrary silliness.


101+ meters is just the point that distance-based noise starts to interfere. Direct connection is only possible through a wire.

Note that a smartlink doesn't need to be online. It can still give you its Accuracy bonus all day even if you burn out its wireless and hook it up through a cable directly to your glasses.

But devices don't route through each other to get to the Matrix. They hop on board directly. Your PAN (or WAN) only protects the device from Matrix attacks and keeps it hidden, it's not actually routing the signal. So to get the wireless bonus from the Smartlink it has to have its own Matrix connection. Then it most definitely needs a larger signal range.
Redjack
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 01:30 PM) *
Say hacker is 50m away and sweeps for hidden icons for what ever strikes his fancy. If he passes he detects the lone hidden icon from the Comm link, the smart gun is out of his detection range for the moment.
If at this point we are talking about a sniper in a nest in a desolate area, he would have to make a tactical choice:

SR4: Hidden mode, running at reduced signal or off-matrix. Presumably, the sniper is on a teamnet or tacnet coordinating with his team. Hacker locates his comlink, compromises it and determines there is a smartgun and proceeds from there.
SR5: Either on, running silent or off. note: Running silent is voided by anyone at a range of < 100m. Hacker can now directly attack the smartgun and brick it.

In either case, the sniper is vulnerable, but he has defensive options that are removed in SR5. :shrug:
Jack VII
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 02:42 PM) *
In either case, the sniper is vulnerable, but he has defensive options that are removed in SR5. :shrug:
Thus: "Geek the decker first!" rotate.gif
Redjack
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 01:38 PM) *
101+ meters is just the point that distance-based noise starts to interfere.
Whatever. It is still arbitrary. Downtown Seattle is the same as deep in the Barrens when clearly the noise levels are not.
Redjack
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 24 2013, 01:37 PM) *
My suggestions for how stuff should work aren't RAW, as far as I am aware. Your initial post just mentions that you don't like the 100m arbitrary direct connect range. I guess if we're talking RAW, the answer would be "too bad", right?

...and you're basically talking about a non-RAW concept by stating that smartlinks shouldn't be able to be hacked from across the planet. From what I can tell, that's RAW as well.
"Direct connect" was a bad choice of syntax as the meaning is different between SR4 (mutual signal range) and SR5 (wired).

I was attempting to discuss the things I dislike about RAW, understand them properly and compare them to SR4. Not trying to house rule it at this point.
KarmaInferno
If you slave the gun to your commlink, any attacks directed at it have to go through the com Link's defenses. The slaved gun might be visible on the matrix, but it can't be directly attacked.


-k
Sendaz
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 03:42 PM) *
If at this point we are talking about a sniper in a nest in a desolate area, he would have to make a tactical choice:

SR4: Hidden mode, running at reduced signal or off-matrix. Presumably, the sniper is on a teamnet or tacnet coordinating with his team. Hacker locates his comlink, compromises it and determines there is a smartgun and proceeds from there.
SR5: Either on, running silent or off. note: Running silent is voided by anyone at a range of < 100m. Hacker can now directly attack the smartgun and brick it.

In either case, the sniper is vulnerable, but he has defensive options that are removed in SR5. :shrug:

Ok, maybe I am misreading something, but in the SR5 example, how are you saying running silent is voided at range of less than 100m? The table on pg 241 shows that a spotting roll is still required to find the silent running icons, even at less than 100m, it's only automatic if the icon is not running silent.

Also if the gun was slaved to his commlink he still gets the defense from the master device correct, so yes he is directly attacking the gun but against the comm's defense.
Redjack
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 01:38 PM) *
But devices don't route through each other to get to the Matrix. They hop on board directly. Your PAN (or WAN) only protects the device from Matrix attacks and keeps it hidden, it's not actually routing the signal. So to get the wireless bonus from the Smartlink it has to have its own Matrix connection. Then it most definitely needs a larger signal range.
The fact that the mesh is gone is something to get used to.

Now every device has to log onto the matrix... This begs new questions: Why the hell would a service provider allow an unlicensed citizen to log on a smartgun? Why would that not immediately summon the police?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 02:42 PM) *
If at this point we are talking about a sniper in a nest in a desolate area, he would have to make a tactical choice:

SR4: Hidden mode, running at reduced signal or off-matrix. Presumably, the sniper is on a teamnet or tacnet coordinating with his team. Hacker locates his comlink, compromises it and determines there is a smartgun and proceeds from there.
SR5: Either on, running silent or off. note: Running silent is voided by anyone at a range of < 100m. Hacker can now directly attack the smartgun and brick it.

In either case, the sniper is vulnerable, but he has defensive options that are removed in SR5. :shrug:


Running silent isn't voided by anyone at less than 100m. They still have to do Matrix Perception to find the presence of hidden icons, and then Matrix Perception to see what those individual icons are. Then they can start hacking.

Further, SR5 gives the sniper the option of running offline, then flipping online to take the shot. Once you're online (in silent mode) you have at least a few IPs before any hacker can start ruining your day.

Basically, you don't run around inside a facility shooting your gun constantly. You keep the guns quiet until you determine that you have to "go loud." You do the same with your wireless -- you leave most of it off until it's necessary, then you flip it all on and hope your devices can hold out until you can switch them off again.
apple
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 03:38 PM) *
101+ meters is just the point that distance-based noise starts to interfere. Direct connection is only possible through a wire.


So no drone control in the desert? No radio communication in a wifi inhibiting building?

SYL
Redjack
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 01:53 PM) *
Ok, maybe I am misreading something, but in the SR5 example, how are you saying running silent is voided at range of less than 100m? The table on pg 241 shows that a spotting roll is still required to find the silent running icons, it's only automatic if the icon is not running silent.
Doesn't that require sleaze?

Edit: Isn't sleaze only available to decks?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 02:53 PM) *
The fact that the mesh is gone is something to get used to.

Now every device has to log onto the matrix... This begs new questions: Why the hell would a service provider allow an unlicensed citizen to log on a smartgun? Why would that not immediately summon the police?


Presumably there's some built-in anonymity. I reason that either the corps don't want that information easily trackable (because it puts their own black ops in peril), or legal owners can use legal data sources but there are illegal underground data havens that support mirror databases that illegal devices can tap into instead.

In other words, the locksmith with an autopicker connects it to Renraku Corporate Lock Database, while the underground autopicker owner sets his device to connect to HonestAndObviouslyNotIllegalLocksmithing.TotallyLegit.
apple
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 03:57 PM) *
Presumably there's some built-in anonymity.


Which wouldnt make any sense because of GOD and the general "we against the authority" and the "authoricy fucks you". Building the perfect security on one side and then saying "well, we are so nice and donīt use it against criminals" is not really a good world design.

SYL
Sendaz
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 03:55 PM) *
Doesn't that require sleaze?

Edit: Isn't sleaze only available to decks?

Let's flip it around, how is any device outside of a commlink or deck running silent at all , whether its under 100m or over 100m?

Because it states on 235 that a commlink, deck or other devices can run silent. But if Sleaze is required, then how are the other devices category doing it?

And you are correct, I also thought sleaze was only applicable to decks, so is this something for errata?
Redjack
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 24 2013, 02:01 PM) *
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 03:57 PM) *
Presumably there's some built-in anonymity.


Which wouldnt make any sense because of GOD and the general "we against the authority" and the "authoricy fucks you". Building the perfect security on one side and then saying "well, we are so nice and donīt use it against criminals" is not really a good world design.
I agree. This is contrary the the 'secure by design' philosophy. This still appears to me to be a contradiction...

QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 03:57 PM) *
In other words, the locksmith with an autopicker connects it to Renraku Corporate Lock Database, while the underground autopicker owner sets his device to connect to HonestAndObviouslyNotIllegalLocksmithing.TotallyLegit.
This even more so. At this point I'm effectively copying/spoofing/generating SINs &/or licenses & access codes. While I'm all for that in a cyberpunk world, I'd like to see some references to support this by RAW.
apple
I would like to have the other question answered: Was is the mutual signal range of devices without matrix access (desert, wifi inhibiting building, underwater facility etc) and where can I find it in the rules? Does SR5 even have a rule for signal range except "Matrix range"? On what range can I connect to the matrix? Can you even have a wifi connection in your average black ops underwater research facility (because the host of this facility certainly does not qualify as "the matrix").

Can you even have radio communication without the matrix (and not using a micro transreceiver with 1km fixed range)?

SYL
Vicar
I guess I still don't see much difference between the example provided for 4A and now for 5. In 4A yes, everything went through the commlink, so a hacker could only "see" the commlink until he hacked it, at which point he could "see" the other devices attached to it.

Now, in SR5, the hacker "sees" every device. Unless the device is running silent. At which point the hacker needs to roll Matrix Perception just to see if there are any silent-running devices in his vicinity (p. 235), and then he needs to actually "Find" it (also p.235/6). 2 tests are required. Not really an easy task. Then, once it's "Found", the hacker can attempt to brick it, but presumably the smart runner has his device slaved to his Commlink. Which means it's using the Link's defenses instead of its own (which is exactly the defensive setup in SR4). And if the group has their own decker, then everybody should be slaved to him, in order to get even better defenses. That's not even mentioning the possibility of using a Throwback device, which can't be bricked at all (for the ultra-paranoid among us).

It seems to me that it's actually harder in SR5 to brick a device than it was in SR4. At least it is against a half-way prepared runner/team.

As far as the ISP allowing Restricted items on the net, I thought that's what fake SINs and Licenses were for. If I'm licensed for a weapon, why should the ISP care?

Of course, that does beg the question of Forbidden items. Would using such an item automatically bring the wrath of GOD?
apple
As per World: yes (everyone cares if illegal items without permission blink up in their matrix).
As per rules: no (no one cares if illegal items without permissions blink up in their matrix).

SYL
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012