Hmm, there may be some problems with allowinf form 'flaws', since there seems to be no penatly in chaning forms. So I'll gime my ally the 'Redneck Tree' form with +4 reach and no running multiplier for 1 karma, and the 'spider legged thingy' form with a +6 running multiplier (with some useless penalties tacked on), and just have it switch betweeen them.

Hmm. It'd probably take two exclusive simple actions to change form (Dematerialise then materialise again). I suppose that's not really enough to warrant giving forms significant reductions for disadvantages.

Actually I may argue this a different way. When using Sense Link the caster never, ever has LOS. LOS is by definition a straight line from point A to point B where A is the caster and B is the target. When using sense link the caster never, ever has a true LOS. He can see from point C, the ally, to point B the target. He can visually see, and since he can see astrally he can assesne, but he literally doesn't have LOS for anything that requires real LOS. The caster's eyes are literally not involved in the process.

Is there any other effect anywhere else in the game that allows a caster to use any LOS related magic without having LOS? Remember, fiber optics and mirrors specifically grant LOS.

Nope, as previously mentioned, the rules for Spell Targeting list all available forms of visual enhancements. Any additional rules would have to specifically state that you could use it for LOS (and just because a few rules remind you that you can't, that doesn't change anything). GunnerJ prefers to ignore that particular bit since it's contrary to his attempts to legitimize this. To each their own.

Once again. Page 181 lists all of the acceptable forms of visual enhancement for spellcasting. Any new rules that are outside of this list must specifically state that they can be used for LOS, otherwise they are invalid. Nowhere is it even hinted at that Sense Link can be used in this fashion. It is not 1) the caster's unaided vision, 2) a cybernetic enhancement paid for with Essence, 3) a natural metahuman visual enhancements, 4) fiber optics, 5) a set of mirrors, or 6) an optical lens.

Page 181 lists these as the only official forms of augmentation. The guidelines they also present here strongly suggest that no form of magic (and I realize they say spell) can be used to augment a caster's LOS.

The rules would thus have to specifically state that such a form of magic allows one to cast a spell. But shock, shock. They don't. And thus you're not partial to that fact, so you prefer to ignore it and claim that it's completely bogus, which it most certainly isn't.

You might as well claim that a caster can just call some guy on the phone and ask him what he's seeing with his own eyes, then describe it to him in detail on the phone. The rules on page 181 certainly don't list that as an unacceptable form, nor do any rules anywhere else in the game. Thus, using your logic here, it must be completely allowable. (Don't bother wasting your time responding to this point, I know it's probably invalid but I'm just trying to make a point with it.)

Do as you please in your own game. Just don't try to delude yourself into thinking it's in any way official when all indications point otherwise. You don't even have so much as an off-beat possibility for a rule to stand on for saying that Sense Link would work in this fashion. The CLOSEST examples are the Clairvoyance and Eyes of the Pack spells, neither of which are permissible. If either one were, you might be on to something by saying that the rules lean that way. But they most certainly do not despite your personal preference.

Let's take a look at the original question:

That was the point I was trying to show too, Cain.

You could do the same with a Simsense Rig and someone with Snake Eyes, but that dosen't work any better.

I read the section on targeting on page 181 SR3 and I noticed 4 things that seem to be requirements for soemthing to give the caster LOS

1. It is attached to the casters origional body and/or has been paid for with essence as in the case of cyber eyes.

2. It redirects photons(light) from the target directly back to the casters body as in the case of fiber optics, optoical lenses, mirrors, natural metahuman visual enhancements, and cyber eyes.

3. It is not a spell.

4. It has to meet requirement 3 but only needs to meet one of the first 2

Lets see how sense link fits into the 4 categories.

1. Is senselink part of the casters origional body or been paid for with essence? No

2. Does senselink redirect photons from the target directly to the casters body? No

3. Is senselink a spell? No

4. Does it meet requirement 3? Yes. Does it meet requirements 1 or 2? No.

Now I think we need to clear up a little somethng about assessing someone or somethings astral signature. The shadowrun novels go into a little more detail than the book on the subject. Think of an aura as a mist of shifting multicolored energy. When you are assessing something you are looking at its aura and the way mages determine emotions and such from this is by observing how the energy shifts and changes color.

EDIT: I of course am reffering to regular LOS not ritual sorcery because it is a special case.

The spirit is a part of the mage's original self. The magic point comes from the mage, making the spirit an extension of the mage as long as both exist.

If that is enough to get past your 1st requirement, I have some questions about severed fingers in nutrient baths.

Because it's easier to answer than the main debate:
MitS page 34, first sentance on requirements

Alright, the "is it canon" argument is dull, but I will say that based on a few things I've read here I'm less willing to argue that my POV is the only correct interpretation and more willing to accept that it's up in the air, since there's no explicit ruling either way.

Assuming that remote spell targeting is allowed through senselink, is it balanced? If not, how can it be?

I think that something like a "dumpshock" effect if the ally is harmed/disrupted would go a long way towards addressing balance issues, as would an extension of the rules that background count makes the telepathic link harder to maintain to cover both senselink and wards.

If you were to allow this, I still think that targetting a spell through the ally should force them resist drain as well. Plus I'd say that another limiting factor is the ally itself. A drone rigger can send his drone anywhere, make it do anything and it wont get ticked off at him and start deliberately twisting his commands. Trying to use an ally spirit as a combat drone wouldn't fall under the "Be nice to your ally" catagory.

Four friggin pages on ally spirits, and no-one has asked if they can dikote their new AVS-form ally spirit.
What has happened to Dumpshock?


IMHO a senselink would be a no-no, as it detaches you from your own aura, so no aura alignment .
At the very least, it should have automatic physical drain, as when you astral project.

Of course you can't cast spells through sense link to your Ally. That's just silly.

I still maintain that by definition sense link does not grant LOS from the mage to the target. It allows the mage to see the available LOS from his ally to the target. He must have LOS from himself to the target according to the Spell Targeting secion of the BBB in order to cast, and in that section is explicitly listed all the circumstances in which LOS can be fulfilled, such as fiberoptics and mirrors.

I also think it's a tad silly to compare it to a rigger. You can't compare Oranges to Chevys just because they both can roll.

Cain, I think a lot of this issues you listed as being unbalancing apply merely to senselink itself, rather than casting remotely through senselink. Why, you could bring the same objtions against having an ally cast its own spells remotely.

I thought about this, and that's when I found a legitimate unresolvable balance issue. Nevermind comparisons to ritual sorcery or rigging, because those apply whether it's the magician or his/her ally casting. The big problem is, if you could cast throguh senselink, there'd be no need to have an ally learn its own spells. This is one thing I can't answer, so I think I'm going to have to revise my position and say that it's not a good idea to allow remote targeting throguh senselink.