Ok, let us discuss Shadowrun returns.

I want to start by being clear: I love this game.
It has an excellent progression system, staggering playable due to fantastic combat, and the constant incentive of getting just a little bit more cash or Karma. On top of that there's a level editor and a great soundtrack.

However, this game is not without its flaws. Here are a couple that I felt hurt it the most.
1) Too linear. A lack of dynamic side-quests and a general feeling that none of your choices have that much of a difference on the outcome (That said, this is shadowrun so the choices of runners not effecting the outcome of larger games is pretty much par for the course).
2) Not enough social aspects. Since there's no voice acting and there's already a dialogue tree system, this one is really baffling. The ability to go and just chat to people seems like a bit of a minor thing, but for those of us who really want to get into the whole Roleplaying side of the RPG it felt very limited.
3) Saves. Been done to death already.
4) Static environments. I do feel that the option of more interaction with the world around you would have been nice.

anyone got anything to add?

5.)
NO SNEAKING WHAT SO EVER!
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6.)
The UI is clunky at best. buggy at worst.
7.)
Cyber is useless, aside from the Datajack and that one is only worth it for Deckers/Riggers.

Too short! By the time the character can afford the good stuff, the game's practically over.

NPC runners are useless if you need them for something other than shooting or using a backpack item. A street sam should be able to shove stuff out of the way, deckers should be able to hack a database, etc. As is, the PC has to do all that and can't hand it off to a better-suited NPC.

Cyberware takes up too much essence. I looked at replacing a set of basic cybereyes on one character, and the upgrade would have taken an additional 0.5 essence beyond the 1.0 essence used by the basic version. Which of course means you have to wait until the end of the game to get anything.

Agreed with too short, and gear progression paths being too narrow/limited.

I'd also like to see better balance among the different archtypes, but since this is a single player game, I can understand why balance really wasn't a priority as long as everyone could contribute.

Would have enjoyed more dialogue and random side missions. I was really surprised when I hit the ending. While the story was good, it felt like end came too early. Just 4-5 hours worth of meaningless random runs scattered in (or better, something like 10 random runs, of which you get enough downtime between story missions to complete 4-5 of. Which ones you complete affect the story) would have been amazing.

Actually now I'm curious if something like that is possible with the editor.

it probably is . .
as is right now, i am simply astonished that things like freaking Fallout 1 are not possible to be re-created in todays world it seems . .

I've read some discussion of random runs and persistent maps on other forums (Steam and shadowrun.com); it seems the engine really wasn't made to handle that. I was really hoping SRR would be akin to the old Sega game crossed with Baldur's Gate or Fallout. As is, it plays more like the new X-Com.

Rumors have it that the Berlin Campaign is supposedly closer to the Sega Game, while the Seattle Campaign was more akin to the SNES Game.

I saw that. I hope it's true.

Liked most of the game. My gripes are pretty much what was listed above. Mostly that there weren't enough side runs to go on, there wasn't a sneaky way to do.. anything, and not enough decking.

I'd have also liked to see more/better cyber, and weapons to be balanced to each other instead of obvious upgrades (why is a Manhunter better than a Predator? who knows!).

I imagine most of my issues will be covered by UGC, but I'm really, really, really hoping the Berlin DLC is more like the Genesis version. I want my random Decking runs for cash, dag-nabbit!

I did a bit of research. Fallout 1 supposedly had a budget of about $3 Million in 1997 Dollars. I have no idea how that translates into 2013 Dollars, but the US dollar is much weaker and inflation has risen quite a bit. Minimum wage in the US isn't keeping pace with where it should, and it's risen on average about 50% since 2997 (from a bit over $5/hr to $7.50-8.00). So we'll go with that and say equiv to $4.5 million. Interplay was also a well established game developer who had done several good sized PC titles by that point. By comparison, Harebrained Schemes has only had 2 games to it's name, both very small games designed for portable devices.

Shadowrun Returns likely had a budget of less than $1 Million, once you subtract Amazon, Kickstarter, and Paypal fees, pay for licensing to Microsoft, Steam, and whatever else you need to license from, and pay for the thousands of custom USB dogtags, Hardback anthologies, and T-shirts. plus shipping. And shipping these days in the US is a BITCH (It cost me $25 to send a a copy of the Origins SR5 to Rat/Winterhawk).

And... We only have half the game so far.

That's why.

If anything, it also provides us with a working platform to create our own things. Well...for the community builders to do such. Its like someone giving you the Neverwinter platform, or somesuch, the dev tools for it and tell you, "Hey, our original campaign was more an idea of what you guys can do with this"

Bonus, the community will develop its own stuff, and the devs can use that stuff as ideas for what else their platform can do. Win-Win.

In specific to the OP tho. I would have liked to create my own team, or have more of a connection to them. Hooker-turned-Samurai was ok from a character story point, as was the "Where did she go" Shaman Girl, but you never got to build them. Likewise there was no real point to having faces or narrative blurbs on the NPC runners for hire, cause they lacked enough connection for me to care. You basically look at them and go "Kay, what weapon are they carrying, kay what skill do they have". Then you go, "Oh hey, its a meta" or "Oh hey its a male/female". I would have been perfectly fine if they just recycled the matrix program avatar npcs for my hired runners, I cared about them the same way...basically I didn't.

Character creation was a little lighter than I had hoped, but I can imagine ways to change it fairly easily.

Not a fan of the limited access to weapons/cyber/etc at the beginning. I understand why, but I didn't like it.

Pretty sure she was actually just a bartender and muscle-for-hire.

Just beat the game for the first time tonight and enjoyed it. I wish it wasn't quite so linear, but in terms of sucking you in to the narrative and the source material, holy cow did they ever nail that one down. Am hoping for some solid user content; so if anybody knows of any to try out let me know (waiting for the SNES alpha to get further along currently).

A new game plus option would also have been nice...

Someone on RPGnet downloaded a NG+ mod off Steam, but it was gone a couple hours later. It let you start up the main game by importing a character, supposedly. And there's another mod that lets you start up a brand new character and properly equip it (So, for example, you're not playing a mage for the first couple missions with no goddamn spells. that did irritate me).

And yes, there are things I'd like to see done differently. I would LOVE to be able to equip the runners I hire. I'd like to be able to build and advance my own team. I wish Wired Reflexes just gave you another AP, instead of that wonky dodge mechanic.

And dammit, why is there no Panther Assault Cannon in this game?? Bull misses his big dakka.

Bull

I haven't actually tried it yet, but I THINK you can. After you hire runners, can't you go to your stash and add items from your stash to their inventory? You probably lose the item once the runner leaves your team, but at least you could have the dwarf combat decker in some armor instead of that silly hat.

I have most/all of the gripes that have been listed already. I can't get the thought out of my head while I play, that games like Fallout 1 and Baldur's Gate did this more than 10 years ago, and did it better. Yes I know those games had more money / more experienced teams or whatever, but still...

This would've rocked as a tablet game that I could take with me on the bus or the subway or something "on the go".

I understand that they altered the story to fit a video game, but the change in how spirits really worked sort of.. bugged me (heehee). And, you know, notLofwyr not eating Harlequin on sight.

I could see Harlequin deciding to run along and pretend to be a normal mage for the UB trip as some sort of bizarre joke, though.

Hired runners can be given medkits, drugs, and grenades, but the game won't let you change their armor out. I tried that with Coyote on one of the missions. I never bothered trying to swap out weapons, but I don't recall seeing any in the equipment list prior to a run. And yes, medkits given to a hireling does disappear after the run.

Ah, that's what I did, thanks! I had given a grenade to a hired runner, then thought "I should buy an extra armor to give them next time". Thanks for saving me the nuyen

yeah, you can't change out armor or their weapons. they can basically act as extra storage slots, but as noted, be sure to use the items they're holding.

(By the same token, anything tehy come with by default replenishes between runs, so if you hire them again, they restock their grenades and medkits.)

A tutorial would have been nice. The stash thing had me a bit puzzled, and it might be good to not be able to store things in the stash, before you can get them out again. I had to run naked for a mission because of that system.

That paired with the stuff allready noted (like saves or useless teamoptions etc.), makes this game into a nice, but not well developed try.

I'd settle for a proper manual. I was able to figure the UI out without too much trouble, but there were some things that had me puzzled for a bit.

The rewind feature for the saves was nice at least. So, if you completed a run and didn't like how things turned out/how you spent your nuyen, you could undo it with a bit of extra gameplay.

I'm going to start looking at the mission maker/devkit dealie to see if I can figure out how to have the game let you form/maintain your own runner team. We'll see what happens.

as mentioned above, not being able to kit out the team before a mission
i.e. Johnny Cleaner for one example

Drones and using air ducts was buggy as hell and pretty useless, although drones in general were fun, if completely useless at hitting stuff.

CyberWare essence, swapping out for better gear (or straight removing items) is something needed,
the essence cost calculator built in doesn't let you upgrade, doesn't factor in the replacement etc.

liked the way ettiquette was played, with specialties etc. for getting bonus pay for paydata to wassisface? but it was hardly used in conversations.

I felt that if you weren't a Decker that you missed out on 70% of the extra stuff, so my SAM ended up taking a metric butt-tonne of decker skills.
Maybe a bit more consideration for how to get around secret doors and computers, although there are "some" good examples

Love Love Love Matrix combat ! it was well done and didn't intrude in the whole Meat combat thing either ... /clap

Yeah, this is the biggest "bright spot" for me. I also like how it runs simultaneous to meat-world combat, gave me a feeling of "gotta hurry up and find the paydata!"

Next character will be a decker/face

Yes, this game definitely feels immediately worthy of a replay with a decker, just for a different flavor.

My drone has more kills than my character.

Pretty much any and all complaints about gameplay aside, I was beyond satisfied when, at the end of the game, I was given an option to plant McClusky on his ass.

Also? The game dripped flavor. The Seamstress' Union was hella cool.

My NPC decker could hack. Granted, they've said decking was a later edition and it wasn't integrated thoroughly in the campaign - but the ability to use a NPC to deck is there. It's just limited.

EDIT: You know, I bet you are talking about the scripted dialogue options rather than 'actual decking'. Like when if you have Decking skill X, you can choose option Y from the choices?

no, I don't think he is.

I took Dodger into the matrix run where you need to provide backup while getting the corp info and the elevators flood the place with guards.

and HE sucked the almighty ball-sac !

my Sam with Decker skills (mostly rating 5) seriously wiped the floor with his programs and ESPs... maybe I got lucky but I played him through twice before leaving him out to give covering fire and going in "myself"

Actually, I was talking about the dialogue options, but you're right, Dodger wasn't very good.

apologies for putting words in your mouth,

Also for hacking terminals

instead of just [DECKING 5] - You can't select this option in the database

I wanted to be able to dive into the matrix at Decking 4 and battle it out, even if it was more difficult, and probably going to DumpShock me, I still wanna TRY ¬!

I would lily to see the [Decking X] option of some of the outer skills. Ranged combat or pistol as a substitute for an intimidation etiquette situation. Almost every skill could work. Biotech needed some non-combat use period.

I wound up with an elf street samurai with a BOD of 8 (with +1 from Dermal Armor) and 9 QCK (with +2 from two cyber legs) and 9 PISTOLS. It was fun (weapon upgrade path was something like: Fichetti Light Security 500a -> Ares Predator -> Colt Manhunter). The free reload and triple target in 1 AP are pretty awesome skills. Always had a runner with a shotgun for kneecap (there is a broken skill ripe for abuse, lol). Debating on if I make another character if I pick rifles or shotguns, as they seem to have potential for even more serious damage... But I also want to play a decker too...

I'm pretty sure when i tried that that the game showed that after installing it i would have 0,5 more essence left.
Atleast thats what happened after i upgraded, but in general the ware pieces cost ridiculous amount of essence.

And yeah the shotguns have quite nice damage potential, on the assault to Telestrian offices, i had to sams with shotguns on overwatch toward the door cops where coming in and it was just hilarious to see them walk to the door way and drop dead one after another, didn't matter if they where Trolls or not

The -AP walls that shamans can make are pretty good there too.

I would definitely love to see a slightly better variety of cyberware and weapon and spell options. Obviously smartlinked and silenced ingram smartguns exist (because NPCs can have them) but I'll be damned if you can ever seem to find one in the gun shop. Also some fun spells like Invisibility or Control Actions would be fun. Or hey, Detect Enemies or Clairvoyance to help spot guys around corners.

I know I've been away from Dumpshock for a while, but I wanted to drop back in to talk about Shadowrun Returns. I've been cracking away at the editor and poking at some of the raw data files in an effort to figure out just how much is moddable (or EASILY moddable, I should say) and what kinda stuff I'll need to wait on. Wanted to chip in my two cents.



With the exception of #3, this is entirely on the campaign created by Harebrained Schemes. The engine and editor absolutely support a lot more social dickery than they used, and you can do a hell of a lot with branching dialogue trees & triggers. The problem is that they just *chose not* to make the most of their systems, probably because they were pressed for time.



I dunno if I'd call cyberware useless. Stat bonuses are pretty nice in general, but yeah - they're not as good as they COULD be, and certainly aren't must-buy. However, it IS possible to mod Cyberware and gear, so in the future, I expect it to get a bump.
As for sneaking, there is SOME measure of sneaking, but it's solely auditory. If they have a LOS cone on you, they see you. Sad, but that's how it goes.




Another case of missed opportunities with level design, unfortunately. They COULD have done a lot of neat things with the rigger-only paths, but chose not to. Boo.

You know... If you can somehow manage to mod in wireless, a 2070's campaign should be quite doable... Could even get ambitious and do things like a season of Missions, or the Artifacts series.

Cyberware LITERALLY doesn't do much of what you expect it to do . .
Somebody already cracked open some files of the game and dismantled them.
Turns out many things use base attribute not current attribute.
Base is your natural and current is your modified attribute here.

... Well, what the fuck.

and it seems as if the essence system is borked as well.
if you end an operation with x.5 essence, it rounds down to the next full point appearantly.

i had one really big complaint too, in addition to the no sneaking stuff . .
but i literally forgot about it as soon as i wrote about the sneaky bit <.<

Yeah, lacking the sneaky bit does definately suck. I was thinking in terms of the editor that if you were ambitious you could work in triggers based on legwork (if you programed the ability to do such things, or even just skill checks) to simulate some of the sneaky bits (such as getting the decker to the console, where he can hack the cameras, etc) and kinda sorta make a sneaky shadowrun. Maybe doing something beforehand will trigger bad guys to not be in certain locations if you do the right trigger.

I'll have to really sit down and figure out the editor to see if its all feasable, but I think it can be done with my basic understanding of the trigger system. Zoning in guys to the right area may take some doing though, I'm ont sure.

I stick mostly to the engine with my observations... leave the campaign for after I've finished it.

The engine:
Overall solid. It works well, it seems many folks are having good luck with the mission editor as well.

I don't find the save system an issue at all. Anytime anywhere means needing to track every and any environmental variable which tends to lead to large save files. I can think of ways to save anytime, but this gets markedly complicated once you add the level editor.

The difficulties inherent in revisiting an old area are far more significant I'd say. Given what I've been hearing from some of the modders.

Overall, the specialization unlocks features is a nice touch. Overall the skill system seems to work pretty well. Though it seems a little shallow for extended play.

AI, so far the AI has been reasonably good. I haven't seen it do any completely stupid things... except for to waste a bit of time here and there. Then again I'm playing on normal... so don't know how 'cutthroat' the AI gets as the level goes up or if they simply scale up incoming damage (which would not be a good way to do difficulty).


Dislikes:
No 'interaction' hotkey... you can't press shift and have 'interactable objects' highlighted on screen. This was one of the nicer features in neverwinter. For example... noticing summoning locations has been a huge hassle so far.

The lack of documation even in game is a huge problem! What exactly does a smartgun do? Are spells silenced? You mean there's no difference between packing a pistol and an assault rifle in terms of concealability!

No ammo tracking system. Even if it was merely a matter of tracking generic 'mags/clips'. This is a huge disappointment!

It took a while til I figured out what losing essence does to magic.

The essence system is completely screwed up... if you install a 0.5 essence item you lose a full point of essence despite the loss being tracked in 0.5 points at install time! Lesson if you want a datajack on your mage... get the datajack and alpha cybereyes at the same time! Then you end up with 5 essence instead of 4 for two 0.5essence installs. There is no excuse whatsoever for this.

LOS tracing and cover. Many items which seemingly should give cover (such as a pile of crates) don't. I understand this is using the xcom system... but the xcom system seemed to do a much better job with it.

Feature wish list.
A 3rd dimension would have been nice, but understandable. Yes it gives the finger to the melee types who might not be able to reach that guy on the catwalk... but in a game like this everyone should have some modest ranged capability.

More than 2 lines of description text... does X.. but not enough room to view the entire sentence to know what you're buying! Really space was at that much of a premium in the interface they couldn't make larger item boxes with the scrolling buy menus?!

Found at least one place where you can sneak. In the mission to save coyote you can take the hidden passage to the top floor and sneak past the guard, appease the hellhounds and take out the torturer without getting everyone's attention.

I found that route, ended up not using it because I hacked the elevator because decker.
Ironically the same starting config gives you the drone...which is what allows that other route...

Charisma 4 also does the job.

Ahh, of course.