Yeah. It's silly that magic should be able to do things that are otherwise completely impossible. Where's the realism in that?
One Magic Missile, once a day. By gumption, that's all those wand-wavers really need!
Full Version: Do mages have it too easy?
| QUOTE |
| Yeah. It's silly that magic should be able to do things that are otherwise completely impossible. Where's the realism in that? |
You sir, are an idiot. There is Realism in RPG's, and there is Balance. Where in this ENTIRE thread did anyone argue that magic shouldn't be able to break the laws of reality? This thread is about Magic being broke *balance* wise.
Your argument is so inane it made my eyes cross.
Curugul
As an initial premise, I'll suggest that magic is not supposed to be readily counterable by mundanes. If it were, there would be no reason for placing it as an A priority - parallel with 1 M 
of equipment! It should be a penultimate challenge - always!
The significant advantage, should one choose to take it, is to specialise, preferably in such a way as to complement the team. The A priority magician is versatile, yes - but that is paid and paid and paid in karma which cannot be devoted to other things. There will (should?) never be enough karma to be as fully versatile as you describe, Curugal; hence the full magician must choose what s/he finds most important: healing? infiltration? combat? The full magician cannot dominate them all - and regardless, other skills will suffer (in comparison to other, non-magical members of the team).
If you choose magic as B, it becomes adept magic - far more specialised, and far closer to the typical street samurai. The B priority adept is much more focused, much less flexible - arguably the balance equivalent of the equally focused street samurai. Like adepts, samurai specialise in a specific area: be it direct combat, sniping, infiltration, or yes, even high personal resistance of damage (I'm equating this to a physad's ability). There is no particular reason a street samurai, more than any other type of character, should have an advantage in combat specifically ... unless of course you are arguing that a street samurai really can hone skills and 'ware only toward one specific type of action (direct combat), that the street samurai can never have significant abilities outside direct combat, and that no other type of character can do the same.
of equipment! It should be a penultimate challenge - always!The significant advantage, should one choose to take it, is to specialise, preferably in such a way as to complement the team. The A priority magician is versatile, yes - but that is paid and paid and paid in karma which cannot be devoted to other things. There will (should?) never be enough karma to be as fully versatile as you describe, Curugal; hence the full magician must choose what s/he finds most important: healing? infiltration? combat? The full magician cannot dominate them all - and regardless, other skills will suffer (in comparison to other, non-magical members of the team).
If you choose magic as B, it becomes adept magic - far more specialised, and far closer to the typical street samurai. The B priority adept is much more focused, much less flexible - arguably the balance equivalent of the equally focused street samurai. Like adepts, samurai specialise in a specific area: be it direct combat, sniping, infiltration, or yes, even high personal resistance of damage (I'm equating this to a physad's ability). There is no particular reason a street samurai, more than any other type of character, should have an advantage in combat specifically ... unless of course you are arguing that a street samurai really can hone skills and 'ware only toward one specific type of action (direct combat), that the street samurai can never have significant abilities outside direct combat, and that no other type of character can do the same.
| QUOTE |
| Take a run designed for a standard team, say, a published adventure. Then run it with an adept (or sam, just incase), and 3 mages. See what happens. |
This is valid ... only (I'd argue) not nearly to the extent you describe: the team of all magicians only ends up specialising to cover traditional "mundane" slots - and in any case thinking mundanes do remain perfectly capable of challenging a magician. (First rule: separate! Second rule: don't be seen!) But - most "standard" SR teams do usually include a magician. Magic should be balanced out with magic. If you choose not to face something magic with an appropriate (magical) tool, you aren't choosing the jobs your team is best designed to take ... or else you aren't choosing to adapt the group team design (I'm talking the players themselves here) to the world as you know it to be. There's magic out there. If you, the players who know what's out there and who have the freedom to design the individuals and the group accordingly, don't choose to include a magician in the group: well, is the game system to blame?
never forget that magicans are maybe 1% of the entire worldspopulation, and how easy is it for a mage to block a mage? any corp worth anything will atleast hire some mage to put a spirit on partrol or ward the executive office (or maybe they just have the outer walls of the facility filled with FAB).
takeing out a mage isnt hard, bang and he is dead, just like any other human. if you just want to mess up his magic, try stuff like gas grenades with neur-stun, flash-paks (+4 to anyone in the area, +2 on flare comp), maybe concussion grenades. or if you realy want to be evil, a CCSS with drones instead of security guards (being not alive they mess up the target numbers badly!).
most impartant, mages are still humans, catch one unprepared and he will be just as dead as the sammie.
one funny way to frag up a invisible mage sneaking around is to put up ultrasonic motion detectors or preasure plates
just dont do it to often as he will soon grab silence or levitate. one other thing could be to have a system where to get in the door you have to pass tru a field of FAB (the uv emitting variety) with guards behind two-way mirror (or one-way window or whatever its called) unlocking the door (or hell, maybe just make that cameras that are allso sensitive to uv)...
basicly for fraging with the mages mind when beign mundane, staying out of the mages view and use stuff like fab or that awakend ivy stuff (being attacked by a plant is no fun for a stral mage)...
there is nothing in SR that cant be counterd by other stuff or with a nice does of common sense (just look at the clueless casefiles )...
takeing out a mage isnt hard, bang and he is dead, just like any other human. if you just want to mess up his magic, try stuff like gas grenades with neur-stun, flash-paks (+4 to anyone in the area, +2 on flare comp), maybe concussion grenades. or if you realy want to be evil, a CCSS with drones instead of security guards (being not alive they mess up the target numbers badly!).
most impartant, mages are still humans, catch one unprepared and he will be just as dead as the sammie.
one funny way to frag up a invisible mage sneaking around is to put up ultrasonic motion detectors or preasure plates
just dont do it to often as he will soon grab silence or levitate. one other thing could be to have a system where to get in the door you have to pass tru a field of FAB (the uv emitting variety) with guards behind two-way mirror (or one-way window or whatever its called) unlocking the door (or hell, maybe just make that cameras that are allso sensitive to uv)...basicly for fraging with the mages mind when beign mundane, staying out of the mages view and use stuff like fab or that awakend ivy stuff (being attacked by a plant is no fun for a stral mage)...
there is nothing in SR that cant be counterd by other stuff or with a nice does of common sense (just look at the clueless casefiles
)...
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| You sir, are an idiot. There is Realism in RPG's, and there is Balance. Where in this ENTIRE thread did anyone argue that magic shouldn't be able to break the laws of reality? This thread is about Magic being broke *balance* wise. Your argument is so inane it made my eyes cross. |
You're the one whining about how magic ruins the game "where man meets magic and machine," and I'm an idiot?
Have you never played Shadowrun, and maybe just sit around all day reading the books and being scared of mages? I've never seen what you describe, not once, in over a decade of playing Shadowrun.
I don't know if your GM drowns the game in house rules, if your group has more munchkinny mages compared to mundanes, if he fudges his die rolls, or if he plays every mundane as an idiot (while utilizing magic to it's utmost). I figure it's gotta be one of those four, though.
House rules? To me, any significant number of house rules can more or less completely invalidate someone's comments and ideas about a game's level of balance. If a game has a house rule that seriously changes the mechanics of X, then you're in no position to talk about the balance and fairness of whatever X is. I've seen games where people have lowered the costs, both in karma and nuyen, for various foci -- and then they complain mages are too potent. I've also seen games where the GM cut the Essence cost of all cyberware in half -- and then griped about how sammies cut through everything. If you use the rules as written, I don't see mages being the unstoppable overpowered machines you're whining about.
If the only mages you ever see are the min/maxed monstrosity's created by your fellow gamers, I can understand your feelings, too. But not every mage in SR is an albino gnome with trauma dampeners, dripping with spell foci, power foci, and quickened armor (9) and increase reaction (9) spells. Not all mages are rating 3945784 initiates, and most of them lose in reaction tests to hardcore street sammies, have less body than a bulked out Troll, and don't dikote their ally spirit. If the mages you encounter (PC or NPC) are min/maxed to levels that other characters aren't... well, that's an issue with your game, and your gamers. It doesn't make the system itself inherently off-kilter.
I'm all for GMs fudging the occasional die roll, to keep a game moving. If he doesn't want his Unstoppable Long-Running Villian ™ to die the first time you swing a punch, fine. If he doesn't want a long-running character to die from a lucky hold-out shot in a back alley, well, whatever. But if he's constantly keeping enemy mages from suffering drain, never succeeding on Spell Resistance checks at all, and things like that -- he's either fudging things severely, doesn't know the rules very well, or is dealing with more min/maxed and munchkinized spellcasters than non-spellcasters (see above). This would be, again, not an issue of the game and rules themselves so much as a problem with your GM.
If your GM (or your party, for that matter) thinks things through to the next level, plans things down to the nitty-gritty, and uses their magical capabilties very well... but doesn't do it with mundane capabilities... that is, again, not the game's fault. Everyone has run into games where all anyone wants to do is charge in guns blazing (and it sometimes works, even). Everyone's also run into games where equipment lists can be two pages long, where plans are made down to the second, and where every contingency is planned for before any dice start being rolled. If the mundanes in your game (whether it's your buddy the street sam or the GM's security guards) don't take advantage of cover, smoke grenades, stealth rolls, and CP (nevermind actual planning and tactics)... and your mages do? Well, that's once again not a problem with Shadowrun itself.
In other words, I have no fucking idea where you got the insane notion that mages are inherently unbalancing to a game. Can they do things mundanes can't? Yes. Can they do some things better than a mundane can? Yes. Do they cost a shitload of karma, nuyen, and starting character points? You betcha! Do they have to worry about things mundanes aren't bothered by? Right again! Is damage scarier to them, are healing checks tougher for them, are some monsters terrifying to them and not the rest of us? Yup!
The only games I've ever seen where the types of problems you seem so worried about happen are in games where one of the four things I've described is going on. People that don't know the rules, abuse the rules, change the rules, or don't think things through and use the rules right. In an average game, with a GM and players that know the magic rules, with balanced karma/nuyen rewards all around... I've never seen it be a problem. There are enough negatives to being a mage (priorities being eaten up, checks for magic loss, tougher hospital stays, wards, essence draining monsters, FAB, background counts, etc) that it all balances out in a good game.
Buy three sustaining foci. Sustain Improved Invisibility. Levitate. Armor (Or, if you rule armor glows, Deflect).
Thats 13 points of karma in spells. A bit more karma in foci, + a bit of nuyen. Any mage can do this. All smart mages who see combat regularly will do something similar. Balanced?
I'll respond in length the the other replies later, since I have to go atm.
Curugul
Thats 13 points of karma in spells. A bit more karma in foci, + a bit of nuyen. Any mage can do this. All smart mages who see combat regularly will do something similar. Balanced?
I'll respond in length the the other replies later, since I have to go atm.
Curugul
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| Buy three sustaining foci. Sustain Improved Invisibility. Levitate. Armor (Or, if you rule armor glows, Deflect). |
You do know the rules for Focus Addiction, don't you?
| QUOTE |
| You do know the rules for Focus Addiction, don't you? |
Yes, do you? 7 magic means 6+6+1 = 13, 7*2 = 14. The mage is fine. Or, for a starting mage, 6 invis, 5 armor, 1 invis.
Care to get into Quickening?
Will respond to the rest later.
Curugul
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| Yes, do you? |
Yes I do! I also know that a mage does not normally start out with a Magic of 7!
As to quickening, I know those rules as well.
Actually dealing with invisiblity isn't all the problem it's cracked up to be. Just a few examples. For the magical one: Spirit spotters - have spirits spot the mage from Astral space - manifest and point, the guards then hose the area with auto suppression fire, sure the mage can deal with the spirit but then he will be occupied with that for a while and possibly risk physical drain. For the mundane one: Motion sensor triggered sentry guns and/or drones - again with the full auto suppression fire.
I could go on and on with ways to counter mages, but i'm not really sure it would help. In all the years i've played RPG's i have noticed that GM's nearly always have strong feelings about magic, many are very pro- or antimagic. I have had the distinct displeasure of playing for many years with a GM that basically hated magic, at least if we players had it ( it was a control question ofcourse ), now this guy would hate SR, not because of the Cyberpunk genre, but because of magic. But the sixth world is an awakened world, magic IS powerfull, why else would the corps line up to snatch up all the mages, that they possibly can. And this blend of fantasy and cyberpunk is exactly why SR is the coolest RPG IMHO.
That being said, there are a few points that needs to be considered. Firstly from what i have seen from other topics, many people tend to be more generous with the karma awards than with the monetary rewards, this invariably favors awakened characters, as mages and shamans tend to have more need of karma than money, while deckers, riggers and sammies have a great need of money for their tools. Second - 3 mages in one group? Now i tend to let players play what they want, but i wouldn't allow that. I would allow a maximum of two awakened in a single group, including adepts. Remember as GM's you have final say and it has to be fun for you too. I would only allow that many awakened characters if magic was to be the overiding focus of the campaign, and if it is, that means magical opposition ofcourse, then it all balances itself out nicely. Thirdly there seems to be alot of people, that thinks that a sammie should only be a combat monster - what gives? If i were to make a sammy character i would certainly be more versatile in my skill selection, remember you are not required to spend the A priority fx. on any thing specific, i would spend less on ware and more on skills, new ware can be aquired. And should it really be a big deal if you have 4d6 or 3d6 for your initiative, not for a beginning character it shouldn't, what should be a big deal is how much you are able to influence the game and skill versatility will let you influence the game much more than an extra d6 for initiative unless your game is built around combat, mine aren't so i might be biased ofcourse.
I could go on and on with ways to counter mages, but i'm not really sure it would help. In all the years i've played RPG's i have noticed that GM's nearly always have strong feelings about magic, many are very pro- or antimagic. I have had the distinct displeasure of playing for many years with a GM that basically hated magic, at least if we players had it ( it was a control question ofcourse ), now this guy would hate SR, not because of the Cyberpunk genre, but because of magic. But the sixth world is an awakened world, magic IS powerfull, why else would the corps line up to snatch up all the mages, that they possibly can. And this blend of fantasy and cyberpunk is exactly why SR is the coolest RPG IMHO.
That being said, there are a few points that needs to be considered. Firstly from what i have seen from other topics, many people tend to be more generous with the karma awards than with the monetary rewards, this invariably favors awakened characters, as mages and shamans tend to have more need of karma than money, while deckers, riggers and sammies have a great need of money for their tools. Second - 3 mages in one group? Now i tend to let players play what they want, but i wouldn't allow that. I would allow a maximum of two awakened in a single group, including adepts. Remember as GM's you have final say and it has to be fun for you too. I would only allow that many awakened characters if magic was to be the overiding focus of the campaign, and if it is, that means magical opposition ofcourse, then it all balances itself out nicely. Thirdly there seems to be alot of people, that thinks that a sammie should only be a combat monster - what gives? If i were to make a sammy character i would certainly be more versatile in my skill selection, remember you are not required to spend the A priority fx. on any thing specific, i would spend less on ware and more on skills, new ware can be aquired. And should it really be a big deal if you have 4d6 or 3d6 for your initiative, not for a beginning character it shouldn't, what should be a big deal is how much you are able to influence the game and skill versatility will let you influence the game much more than an extra d6 for initiative unless your game is built around combat, mine aren't so i might be biased ofcourse.
I disagree there Reth, about limiting the number of Awakeneds. You end up showing favoritism in the player's eyes.
A good GM works around the players, not forces the players to his view. If I ran a game and got 3 people playing something Awakened (actually quite common in our games), then I plan my game around that, meaning it auto-becomes a focus of the campaign.
Right now I play in a game with 4 mundanes (a rigger/decker, 2 sammies, and a Merc), 2 Adepts, 2 Shamans, and a MagicianAdept. So, 5 of 9 are Awakened. It's the best game I've ever been in.
Sphynx
A good GM works around the players, not forces the players to his view. If I ran a game and got 3 people playing something Awakened (actually quite common in our games), then I plan my game around that, meaning it auto-becomes a focus of the campaign.
Right now I play in a game with 4 mundanes (a rigger/decker, 2 sammies, and a Merc), 2 Adepts, 2 Shamans, and a MagicianAdept. So, 5 of 9 are Awakened. It's the best game I've ever been in.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| Buy three sustaining foci. Sustain Improved Invisibility. Levitate. Armor (Or, if you rule armor glows, Deflect). Thats 13 points of karma in spells. A bit more karma in foci, + a bit of nuyen. Any mage can do this. All smart mages who see combat regularly will do something similar. Balanced? I'll respond in length the the other replies later, since I have to go atm. Curugul |
So... what's so unbalancing about that? Being able to fly or turn invisible are great advantages, but they are not enough, by themselves, to completely negate corporate security. The armor spell is useful, but it is not considered hardened armor, so all it can do is lower your Target Number for resisting damage to 2. You can still die from a streetline special. Sustaining foci are also vulnerable to astral attack when activated, and need to be deactivated in order to pass wards without alerting the security mage.
Now, as far as the GM being "unrealistic" in using magic to counter magic, keep in mind that the corporations know that magic is powerful. They have passed draconian laws regulating and suppressing magic, while recruiting the best and the brightest to their ranks. Magic is relatively rare in the general populance, but not so at corporate installations. And magic oppostion should be common at the level runners operate at - it is part of the game balance. Mages need to carefully allocate dice for spellcasting, resisting Drain, and spell defence. If they can safely ignore the latter, then they have that much extra dice. Magical opponents should at least be common enough that PC mages make a habit of allocating some dice for spell defence.
Imbalance comes about when GMs limit certain types of characters over others, or give certain types of characters too many advantages. If it is a cash-heavy campaign where the characters have access to a Delta clinic, the sammies will quickly turn into monsters. If it is a stingy but karma-heavy campaign, then the adept will be looking at his ninth initiation while the sammie is contemplating finally upgrading his Wired: 1 to Wired: 2. If sammies are allowed to start out with cyberware and bioware with 8 or less Availability (in other words, as per the standard rules), they can be extremely tough, even if you don't let them start out with any cultured bioware.
I wrote a really long reply, but I deleted it because I realize 80+% of what I was saying has been covered in the many long and excellent replies already here.
I would like to address my initial point about imbalance. Let me attempt to clarify, and perhap's you'll see what I meant.
In a standard, or close to standard shadowrun campaign. With decent, but not insanely low or high payouts, something close to the companion, but probably higher (probably even double+ depending on adventure). A wide variety of runs, including a decent amount of legwork. Standard opposition, not favoring any one type or nature (awakened, non awakened, ect), based on the nature of the run.
Now, take a full shaman/mage, and compare it to a Street Samurai/Merc/Company man in this sort of campaign. The mage is EASILY 3+ times as powerful - he's useful for so many aspects of so many missions, whereas the combat character is more an issurance policy against ambush's and crazy combats...
I'm not speaking from theory here. I've played in many campaigns like this, run by various gm's, some who liked magic, some who didn't, some with houserules, some without. The only thing that stayed constant was the exponetially higher usefullness and fun of the full mage, compared to a combat cybered character. Is it worth having a Sam around for the 10% of shit hitting the fan? Absolutely. Is the Sam largely dead weight 75% of most runs? Absolutely. Am I bitter about the overall power, growth, and versatility of full mages? Absolutely. I appologize for insulting you Talondel, that was uncalled for.
On a closing note, take a look at the most favorite character types thread. Its something like 50% mages/shamans, 30% adepts, 12% sams. There's a reason for this. Magic in shadowrun is Special, Incredibly Powerful, Able to grow well in ANY game, since all you need is karma, no limit to growth, the only thing able to deal with other magic, able to deal with mundanes anywhere from almost as good as mundanes to better (see: manabolt troll sam). When you add up all the factors, magic in shadowrun may be functional and fun, but please don't come here and tell me its balanced.
Curugul
I would like to address my initial point about imbalance. Let me attempt to clarify, and perhap's you'll see what I meant.
In a standard, or close to standard shadowrun campaign. With decent, but not insanely low or high payouts, something close to the companion, but probably higher (probably even double+ depending on adventure). A wide variety of runs, including a decent amount of legwork. Standard opposition, not favoring any one type or nature (awakened, non awakened, ect), based on the nature of the run.
Now, take a full shaman/mage, and compare it to a Street Samurai/Merc/Company man in this sort of campaign. The mage is EASILY 3+ times as powerful - he's useful for so many aspects of so many missions, whereas the combat character is more an issurance policy against ambush's and crazy combats...
I'm not speaking from theory here. I've played in many campaigns like this, run by various gm's, some who liked magic, some who didn't, some with houserules, some without. The only thing that stayed constant was the exponetially higher usefullness and fun of the full mage, compared to a combat cybered character. Is it worth having a Sam around for the 10% of shit hitting the fan? Absolutely. Is the Sam largely dead weight 75% of most runs? Absolutely. Am I bitter about the overall power, growth, and versatility of full mages? Absolutely. I appologize for insulting you Talondel, that was uncalled for.
On a closing note, take a look at the most favorite character types thread. Its something like 50% mages/shamans, 30% adepts, 12% sams. There's a reason for this. Magic in shadowrun is Special, Incredibly Powerful, Able to grow well in ANY game, since all you need is karma, no limit to growth, the only thing able to deal with other magic, able to deal with mundanes anywhere from almost as good as mundanes to better (see: manabolt troll sam). When you add up all the factors, magic in shadowrun may be functional and fun, but please don't come here and tell me its balanced.
Curugul
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| Is it worth having a Sam around for the 10% of shit hitting the fan? Absolutely. Is the Sam largely dead weight 75% of most runs? Absolutely. |
Then I'd suggest that the Sams learn some other skills than just combat and gun related stuff so they're a bit more versatile and not just standing there.
| QUOTE |
| Magic in Shadowrun is Special, Incredibly Powerful, Able to grow well in ANY game, since all you need is karma, no limit to growth, the only thing able to deal with other magic, able to deal with mundanes anywhere from almost as good as mundanes to better (see: manabolt troll sam) |
Well that's assuming that you've got the oodles of karma to do all that. I can think of very few games I ever played where the magicians weren't always grumbling or muttering about how they could spend/use more karma.
And on manabolting trolls, all well and good. Although if the opposition is just walking around with no magical protection I'd say that's more something to talk to the GM about since by itself magic is powerful, thus needing a counter.| QUOTE |
| When you add up all the factors, magic in shadowrun may be functional and fun, but please don't come here and tell me its balanced |
Sorry, but as a number of people have already made clear, they do disagree with you that magic is unbalanced. Just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong because of it.
You keep saying make everything even, the Mage will win and be more usfull in a lot more roles, then compare him to a specialized character. I have seen games where the "sam" has all the electronics, B/R, and computer, B/R. Doing 90% on a run. With Bear shaman, being the dead weight, becasue they wouldn't fight, or had no way to fight, and rarly wanted to heal people because the TN for healing a sam is crazy. I have seen many cases where the sams and riggers and deckers kick the ass of mages. When someone specializes they do become less usefull in other fields. I have a mage who is specialized in sneaking, he is super at it, but if a fight breaks out he'll die in first round. When it is time to drive, I'll crash just pulling out of the lot. But he can do a little decking, electronics warfare, and sneak just about any where. So if your "sams" in your games only do combat and allow the mage to pick up the slack, then that is the mages fault. My mage wouldn't whip up spells evertime a door needed opening or combat broke out. Everytime you throw a spell it leaves behind a astral signature for Force * hours. And if you want to clean that you have to basically recast the spell, and that only reduces the time by 1 hour*success. Everytime a mage throws a spell he takes the chance at hurting himself and leaving behind a link to him. You can always steal the mages Foci, once they leave his person they no longer work all his foci can be quit useless with a brave sam around. I don't know anything about your games but mages pose no more a problem to us then a well equiped sam. We have had games with 10 or 15 people playing and the only magic in the group was a (1) physical adept. Sure sometimes a mage can be super powerful but I get hurt by sams alot more then the mages do.
| QUOTE |
| Although if the opposition is just walking around with no magical protection I'd say that's more something to talk to the GM about since by itself magic is powerful, thus needing a counter. |
[QUOTE] Sorry, but as a number of people have already made clear, they do disagree with you that magic is unbalanced. Just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong because of it. [QUOTE]
Right. So magic is balanced because you are *forced* to keep it in check with the enemies broke magic.
And let me ask you, personally FlakJacket. In usefulness and the amount of power added to the team... How would you rate a Street Samurai (not covert ops), and a Full Shaman, on a scale of 1-10, assuming both are 50ish karma. Personally, I'd say the Sam's a 2, Full Shaman 10. Full mages are easily 3+ times as powerful and versatile as any mundane combat archetype. Its very similar to Fighters compared to Sorcerors/Clerics in D&D at high levels. Theres just no balance, and nothing anyone has wrote here has convinced me otherwise.
Curugul
forced? no, but you can be dam sure that whatever a runner can trow at a corp the corp can trow back with intrest
sure the mages get powerful on higher level, thats how they have allways been in any game. old people that knowmore then they should about things best left alone the question is how fast they get there...
sure the mages get powerful on higher level, thats how they have allways been in any game. old people that knowmore then they should about things best left alone
the question is how fast they get there...
There a whole lot of crack flying around this thread.
Sams are useless? Get new Sams, if I had 1 karma for every time my Sam pulls my ass out of the fire I'd be a grade 12 initiate by now.
If mages are out of control in your game, I suggest your GM exercise some of that phenomenal cosmic power of his...
Sunday.
Sams are useless? Get new Sams, if I had 1 karma for every time my Sam pulls my ass out of the fire I'd be a grade 12 initiate by now.
If mages are out of control in your game, I suggest your GM exercise some of that phenomenal cosmic power of his...
Sunday.
Curugul: There is something wrong with the way you ask the question!!! You state that a mage is 3 times as powerfull as a sammy, ok so far, but then you attach the asumption that the mage has made sure to be versatile in skills and magic whereas the sammy is completely specialised in the combat area. The only answer to that statement is that ofcourse the mage will influence the run more and thereby be considered more powerfull. BUT that does not prove that the mage is more powerfull because of magic, but rather because of his versatility. Now if you turned it around, with the mage being specialised in only combat fx. but the the sammy purchased all sorts of skills at character generation and have continued to develop them, is the mage still the most powerfull? NO, not in the ability to influence the run, in this version of the question it would indeed be the mage who would only be usefull about 10-15% of the time. The problem is that you assume that one character is versatile by nature while the other is not. I don't believe this to be true and in all the SR games i have played in both as GM and player, never once have i encountered a sammy that was only good for combat, and consequently they contribute just as much to the run as the mage. This is ofcourse not written in stone everytime, since runs tend to fluctuate in their focus, but seen overall it pretty much evens out. If you want the question to have validity then the assumption must be, that both characters are versatile by nature, which is the reason that SR doesn't have character classes. Then you can ask the question whether the mage is more powerfull than a mundane character such as a sammy.
Two words. Astral signature.
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| Right. So magic is balanced because you are *forced* to keep it in check with the enemies broke magic. |
I propose that "broke magic" is only necessary to counter "broke magic". If the PCs are min-maxing, so will the NPCs.
I also remind you that 1% of the population is magical, and the inherent value of magic skews the proportion of awakened in any setting a shadowrunner is likely to encounter. That's a lot of people. Having magical opposition is only weird if having magical shadowrunners is weird.
Well although the thread title refers to mages' abilities in general, the poll refers to the way in which they gain new spells.
From what i have been reading and thinking, one of the problems stated with mages is that they can kick ass in combat while also having the verstality in other tasks.
This is were i think the poll's title come in. If mages didn't earn new spells so fast they wouldn't be that versatile.
From what i have been reading and thinking, one of the problems stated with mages is that they can kick ass in combat while also having the verstality in other tasks.
This is were i think the poll's title come in. If mages didn't earn new spells so fast they wouldn't be that versatile.
| QUOTE |
| From what i have been reading and thinking, one of the problems stated with mages is that they can kick ass in combat while also having the verstality in other tasks. This is were i think the poll's title come in. If mages didn't earn new spells so fast they wouldn't be that versatile. |
Completely agree. The ability to learn Influence force 6 for 6 karma is INCREDIBLE utility for karma spent. No other character, certainly not a mundane, can grow in versatility and power that fast. In fact, I think you're on to something here. If spells cost more to gain, i'd have a lot less problems with mages in general.
Reth - You have a valid point. I am comparing pure combat specialist Cybered characters to mages. I agree, this tends to skew things, however, there is a reason I compare this way. To my experience, combat is where cyber shines most. Sure, there are a few nifty tricks for a covert ops/more versatile cybered character, and yes they help; but its an uphill battle all the way. The problem tends to be growth. A mage drops 12 karma for 3 force 4 spells, you drop 12 karma for +1 demolitions.
Secondly, in my experience for a mage to be specialized in battle it costs him an order of magnitude LESS than a Sam or Adept who desires combat power, both in karma and nuyen spent.
Even so, perhap's I'm not seeing the big picture: Could you give me some examples of versatile sams and the skills/abilities they used to make them compare to a full mage?
Thanks
Curugul
Direct limiting factors to magician spell strength and increase in number/Force of spells:
Karma sinks
* Sorcery skill
* Magic Theory (or similar) skill
* Karma for individual spells. Higher Force spells down the road effectively waste karma spent on the lower-Force version earlier.
Nuyen sinks
* Force of library
* Storage for said library if owned (10% of library cost based on desktop computer memory costs, significantly more for laptop or wrist computers)
Time sinks
* Time to learn them. (The case described at the beginning is very much an exception.)
* Time to cast them. Influence (like the various healing spells) is a permanent spell - requires multiple combat turns to sustain before it comes into effect. What is the street samurai doing in all that time?
And that's only for spellcasting alone. What of conjuring, enchanting, initiation? What of foci? What of familiars and bound elementals and bargains with free spirits? (For some reason it's always the magician who ends up paying the karma there.) What of the centring skill and its linked artistic/meditative/performative skill? What of other magical knowledge skills?
What of magicians who might want to improve a few other basic skills and attributes, like, I don't know, BD? Stealth? Pistols? Athletics?
Karma sinks
* Sorcery skill
* Magic Theory (or similar) skill
* Karma for individual spells. Higher Force spells down the road effectively waste karma spent on the lower-Force version earlier.
Nuyen sinks
* Force of library
* Storage for said library if owned (10% of library cost based on desktop computer memory costs, significantly more for laptop or wrist computers)
Time sinks
* Time to learn them. (The case described at the beginning is very much an exception.)
* Time to cast them. Influence (like the various healing spells) is a permanent spell - requires multiple combat turns to sustain before it comes into effect. What is the street samurai doing in all that time?
And that's only for spellcasting alone. What of conjuring, enchanting, initiation? What of foci? What of familiars and bound elementals and bargains with free spirits? (For some reason it's always the magician who ends up paying the karma there.) What of the centring skill and its linked artistic/meditative/performative skill? What of other magical knowledge skills?
What of magicians who might want to improve a few other basic skills and attributes, like, I don't know, BD? Stealth? Pistols? Athletics?
Try this comparison, then.
Let's take an information specialist mage, and an information-specialist mundane with cyber, and see how they stack up.
The mage has some very strong edges, inasmuch as he can use Detection Magic, astral perception, and spirits and watchers as intelligence sources. So, the concept is quite powerful, and can do some things that cyber and technology cannot. Which is all well and good, characters would be boring if they all were the same.
However, the techie has some edges all his own. He may not be able to summon freebie watchers, but a datajack and an RCD is enough for him to operate a huge drone network. The drone rigger not only can send his drones out to patrol and report, but he can recieve intel from them instantly, something only allies can do. With sensors, he can potentially detect things that a mage can't, over a greater range; and with or without BattleTac IVIS and FDDM, he can coordinate them much more precicely. He can also deck, which is a serious edge. Also, the techie can have download all this info into headware memory, which costs so much essence most mages won't have enough. On the *really* heavy-duty end, a mundane may just have a tactical computer, which would give him the edge in spades.
Where the techie really excells, however, is in disseminating that information. If he acts as a communication hub, his team can benefit from all real-time intel he collects. BattleTac just makes this trick that much easier. All of this is well-within the reach of a starting techie, but impossible for a mage to handle. (Well, all of this excepting the Tactical computer.) What's more, there's still plenty of room for a reflex-augmentor and a smartlink, plus a firearm skill or two. Add in enhanced articulation and some muscle toner, and you've got a light sam who can rig, deck, and run communications. Add Electronics and Electronics B/R specialized in security systems, (plus Stealth, which is mandatory for all shadowrunners) and you've got a good B&E character.
Thus, even a specialized mage can't really beat a cybered character in their specialties. And even in a more generalized sense, a heavy sam can still take on ettiquette skills, biotech skills, and techie skills; the mage is going to be more focused on Conjuring, Sorcery, and other Magical skills.
As the game progresses, a mage is going to be consuming karma in order to initiate and learn spells, as well as trying to learn and improve skills and attributes. He'll eventually pick up Centering and improve his Enchanting skill, for one. A sam, however, can spend all that karma on just skills and attributes-- for the cost of two initiations and a force-6 spell, a sam can easily pick up a totally new skill at level 5.
But to go back to one of your original points-- yes, a team with magic is going to stomp all over a team without, all other things being equal. As well they should; a team with a combat monster will likely stomp all over a team without, all other things being equal. Magic is powerful, but it's not the 800-pound gorilla of Shadowrun.
Let's take an information specialist mage, and an information-specialist mundane with cyber, and see how they stack up.
The mage has some very strong edges, inasmuch as he can use Detection Magic, astral perception, and spirits and watchers as intelligence sources. So, the concept is quite powerful, and can do some things that cyber and technology cannot. Which is all well and good, characters would be boring if they all were the same.
However, the techie has some edges all his own. He may not be able to summon freebie watchers, but a datajack and an RCD is enough for him to operate a huge drone network. The drone rigger not only can send his drones out to patrol and report, but he can recieve intel from them instantly, something only allies can do. With sensors, he can potentially detect things that a mage can't, over a greater range; and with or without BattleTac IVIS and FDDM, he can coordinate them much more precicely. He can also deck, which is a serious edge. Also, the techie can have download all this info into headware memory, which costs so much essence most mages won't have enough. On the *really* heavy-duty end, a mundane may just have a tactical computer, which would give him the edge in spades.
Where the techie really excells, however, is in disseminating that information. If he acts as a communication hub, his team can benefit from all real-time intel he collects. BattleTac just makes this trick that much easier. All of this is well-within the reach of a starting techie, but impossible for a mage to handle. (Well, all of this excepting the Tactical computer.) What's more, there's still plenty of room for a reflex-augmentor and a smartlink, plus a firearm skill or two. Add in enhanced articulation and some muscle toner, and you've got a light sam who can rig, deck, and run communications. Add Electronics and Electronics B/R specialized in security systems, (plus Stealth, which is mandatory for all shadowrunners) and you've got a good B&E character.
Thus, even a specialized mage can't really beat a cybered character in their specialties. And even in a more generalized sense, a heavy sam can still take on ettiquette skills, biotech skills, and techie skills; the mage is going to be more focused on Conjuring, Sorcery, and other Magical skills.
As the game progresses, a mage is going to be consuming karma in order to initiate and learn spells, as well as trying to learn and improve skills and attributes. He'll eventually pick up Centering and improve his Enchanting skill, for one. A sam, however, can spend all that karma on just skills and attributes-- for the cost of two initiations and a force-6 spell, a sam can easily pick up a totally new skill at level 5.
But to go back to one of your original points-- yes, a team with magic is going to stomp all over a team without, all other things being equal. As well they should; a team with a combat monster will likely stomp all over a team without, all other things being equal. Magic is powerful, but it's not the 800-pound gorilla of Shadowrun.
| QUOTE |
| Karma sinks * Sorcery skill * Magic Theory (or similar) skill * Karma for individual spells. Higher Force spells down the road effectively waste karma spent on the lower-Force version earlier. |
Right, become Street Sam's dont have to spend karma on anything? Mages still get more for their karma. IF they choose, they can spread it out thinner, for versatility, but thats an upside, not a downside. Options are good.
| QUOTE |
| Nuyen sinks |
I laughed when I read this. Do you have any idea what kind of money upgrading cyber and bio takes? Mages need the least money of ANYONE, except perhaps an adept (unless he's saving for a weapon foci).
| QUOTE |
| Time sinks * Time to learn them. (The case described at the beginning is very much an exception.) * Time to cast them. Influence (like the various healing spells) is a permanent spell - requires multiple combat turns to sustain before it comes into effect. What is the street samurai doing in all that time? |
Again, laughable. Learning skills, hospital stays (magical healing doesn't work so well), and implant/upgrade/tuning Surgery... The sam's using at LEAST as much time to improve, probably far, far more.
To the second example, thats pretty much a non sequetor. The discussion was on how easily mages can gain incredible power/versatility. The street samurai during that time is TWIDLING HIS THUMBS WISHING HE COULD SPEND 6 KARMA AND GAIN ANYWHERE NEAR SUCH A USEFUL ABILITY WHILE HOPING FOR A LARGE BLOODY COMBAT SO HE CAN FEEL USEFUL.
Curugul
| QUOTE |
| Karma sinks [etc.] - Talia Invierno Right, become Street Sam's dont have to spend karma on anything? [etc.] - Curugul |
This was strictly for sorcery/spellcasting alone, which is all you seem to be considering. Nothing else. But as it happens there are many, many other things which a magician needs karma for as well. I considered in that first part only those directly sorcery related. A few of the others were listed later, in a part of the post you choose not to address.
| QUOTE |
| Nuyen sinks - Talia Invierno I laughed when I read this. Do you have any idea what kind of money upgrading cyber and bio takes? [etc.] - Curugul |
Yes. Quite intimately, as it happens. Generally, it tends to be in the 10s of thousands until you hit the major pieces and beta/gamma ware. A Force 10 Sorcery library plus wrist computer storage space (for that desired versatility) runs 300 k
. Power and weapon foci generally start around that point.| QUOTE |
| Time sinks [etc.] - Talia Invierno Again, laughable. Learning skills, hospital stays (magical healing doesn't work so well), and implant/upgrade/tuning Surgery... - Curugul |
There's always been a basic rule of 'ware: buy the best you can at the start, and minimise the number of upgrades necessary. "Magical healing doesn't work so well"? In our group, we have yet to require a hospital stay outside cyberwork ... and that includes the really low Essence PCs. It's part of the magician's team job to maximise Heal spells. TN 9s aren't really that hard (said just before keeling over). Hence another reason for that laughably cheap power focus. And karma spent on initiating. And on centring.
| QUOTE |
| To the second example, thats pretty much a non sequetor. The discussion was on how easily mages can gain incredible power/versatility. The street samurai during that time is TWIDLING HIS THUMBS WISHING HE COULD SPEND 6 KARMA AND GAIN ANYWHERE NEAR SUCH A USEFUL ABILITY WHILE HOPING FOR A LARGE BLOODY COMBAT SO HE CAN FEEL USEFUL. - Curugul |
And s/he wonders why the magician comes across as being so powerful. Cain gave a beautiful example of maximising what a PC is. What you're describing, Curugul, is the PC bitching about what they're not. Every character has weaknesses just as strengths. Magicians are no exception.
Cain, I'd add to yours that surveillance drones are relatively cheap and (relatively) expendable. If they're lost, it's nuyen lost, little else. Should a magician regularly treat their watchers/elementals/spirits/allies as cheap and expendable, sooner or later it will backlash on them.
Point remains that spells are god awful cheap. You encounter a problem? No problem, couple days to learn a spell, and problem solved for only 5 Karma.
Hell, my character just realized he could Quicken an Improved Willpower to himself. So for a total of 5 karma to learn the spell at Force 6 (Fetish) and 12 karma to Quicken it, I'm going to get a +6 to willpower for 17 Karma, 48 hours to get the Formula, 5 days to learn the spell. 7 days and 17 karma for +6 Willpower. God-awful cheap and fast.
Or, a ton of exclusive Force 3 spells. average time is 3 days and 1 karma per spell.
Now, I'm not saying Mages are uber-powerful, but they DO have alot more growth potential, and spells are the cheapest things in the world for how much they do.
Pure Mage against Pure Sammie, I'd actually put my money on the sammie as long as he had a WP of 6. But we're not talking 'pure' here. A mage can do any and everything anyone else can if he chooses, not the other way around
Sphynx
Hell, my character just realized he could Quicken an Improved Willpower to himself. So for a total of 5 karma to learn the spell at Force 6 (Fetish) and 12 karma to Quicken it, I'm going to get a +6 to willpower for 17 Karma, 48 hours to get the Formula, 5 days to learn the spell. 7 days and 17 karma for +6 Willpower. God-awful cheap and fast.
Or, a ton of exclusive Force 3 spells. average time is 3 days and 1 karma per spell.
Now, I'm not saying Mages are uber-powerful, but they DO have alot more growth potential, and spells are the cheapest things in the world for how much they do.
Pure Mage against Pure Sammie, I'd actually put my money on the sammie as long as he had a WP of 6. But we're not talking 'pure' here. A mage can do any and everything anyone else can if he chooses, not the other way around
Sphynx
I would also point out that a samurai can be doing a lot of things besides "twiddling his thumbs".
Most notably, making connections and acquiring contacts. The world doesn't stop while the group is in down-time and the mage actually loses personal blue-booking time for the amount of attention magical research and initiation demands.
And if your GM uses the strict "contact maintenance" rules, the mage is doubly taxed if (s)he wants to try to keep any sort of useful connection alive and speaking.
Limiting the samurai to a strictly combat role is a failure of the player's imagination, not an inherent limitation of the character.
Other possibilities for strictly gun bunnies --> build, customize or tweak your own weapons. Gotta love chipping a B/R skill and adding custom grips to all your weapons.
-Siege
Most notably, making connections and acquiring contacts. The world doesn't stop while the group is in down-time and the mage actually loses personal blue-booking time for the amount of attention magical research and initiation demands.
And if your GM uses the strict "contact maintenance" rules, the mage is doubly taxed if (s)he wants to try to keep any sort of useful connection alive and speaking.
Limiting the samurai to a strictly combat role is a failure of the player's imagination, not an inherent limitation of the character.
Other possibilities for strictly gun bunnies --> build, customize or tweak your own weapons. Gotta love chipping a B/R skill and adding custom grips to all your weapons.
-Siege
Well Curugul i don't know if it can be said to be inherent in the game structure, but in the games that i have played in making money to purchase upgrades have not been a big problem, this have had the effect that characters like sammies didn't have to purchase everything from the beginning, since they basically know that it wont take them forever to earn the cred they need for new ware, instead this have allowed not only sammies but basically all mundane characters to use a higher priority for skills at character generation thus avoiding to have to spend tons of karma later on to become versatile, since they can get more skills from the get go. I stated in an earlier post that an imbalance between nuyen and karma clearly favors a mage because you're right 6 karma is cheap for a force 6 spell compared to how much you need to pay for a skill rating of 6. Another thing that can help right the balance is skillwires and knowsoft links plus some headware memory. More or less all the sammy characters i my games have these upgrades which allow them to become versatile very very fast, but again this is also dependent on being able to rely on the fact that the GM isn't gonna screw you in the Nuyen department. Personally i have always thought that the recommended rates in SR COMP are laughable, i think these rates treats the runners as two-bit goons instead of the highly trained specialists they are. Fortunately we are free to adjust these rates to fit our campaigns, so i did, the net result is that the characters are all fairly versatile but also specialised in one or two areas, Nobody stands around being useless most of the time.
Another fine point was raised in one of the former posts. High willpower stats, if you can't get them from the start, it is certainly karma well spent, nothing unerves a mage more than to get ready to frag the cybermonster with a manabolt only to find out that he has a willpower of 6, damn, i know 'cause i've tried it.
Another fine point was raised in one of the former posts. High willpower stats, if you can't get them from the start, it is certainly karma well spent, nothing unerves a mage more than to get ready to frag the cybermonster with a manabolt only to find out that he has a willpower of 6, damn, i know 'cause i've tried it.
| QUOTE |
| Cain, I'd add to yours that surveillance drones are relatively cheap and (relatively) expendable. If they're lost, it's nuyen lost, little else. Should a magician regularly treat their watchers/elementals/spirits/allies as cheap and expendable, sooner or later it will backlash on them. |
Point taken. I don't have R3 handy, but if you can get a few cheap survelliance drones for less than 6K each, you'll probably get more uses out of them than a mage will in using elementals, for much the same cost. A mage can collect ritual materials, making it much cheaper; but a techie can build and salvage drones, cutting his costs down as well.
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
| Should a magician regularly treat their watchers/elementals/spirits/allies as cheap and expendable, sooner or later it will backlash on them. |
Is there actually a rule for this or just a style of role-playing?
I'm aware it's true with Ally spirits, and can see it being true for Nature Spirits, but I definitely don't recall such a rule, especially for Elementals and Watchers.
Sphynx
Maybe it was better to address each point as a separate thread, like "do new spells come too cheap?" but well.
First point is that new spells come in cheap for the versatility they add. As a mage you already have a decent sorcery skill so you dont need to spend there to add a new spell. As for the library this aint a major problem, as most players here surely know getting access to a library aint that difficult or expensive (i said getting access not buying one).
Although already mentioned i would also like to address as the second point the fact about the amount of options mages have. Allow me to quote:
First point is that new spells come in cheap for the versatility they add. As a mage you already have a decent sorcery skill so you dont need to spend there to add a new spell. As for the library this aint a major problem, as most players here surely know getting access to a library aint that difficult or expensive (i said getting access not buying one).
Although already mentioned i would also like to address as the second point the fact about the amount of options mages have. Allow me to quote:
| QUOTE |
QUOTE: (Talia Invierno) And that's only for spellcasting alone. What of conjuring, enchanting, initiation? What of foci? What of familiars and bound elementals and bargains with free spirits? (For some reason it's always the magician who ends up paying the karma there.) What of the centring skill and its linked artistic/meditative/performative skill? What of other magical knowledge skills? |
Seems as if mages have more options as to were to grow, without loosing efectiveness. Of course this will be answered proposing alternative builds for sammies (i can think of a few myself) but i will be surprised to find a variety that can come close to the options a mage has while retaining efectiveness.
Of course the idea of the original post was to show how a mage can eat up karma but that is if you are planning on maxing out everything which isn't what i am talking about.
Man this sounds awfully close to star wars...
"Dude but Jedi can use the force, it can do anything!"
"Yea but Jedi have more stuff they gotta raise, so it balances out."
*ensuing repeatitive uhuh! nahuh! uhuh! nahuh! ...*
Actually, it sounds really close to DnD...
"Dude but wizards can use the magic, it can do anything!"
"Yea but wizards have more stuff they gotta raise, so it balances out."
*ensuing repeatitive uhuh! nahuh! uhuh! nahuh! ...*
Sams, mages, whatever all have unique abilites that scale in their own way. While the mage might advance "faster" or get "cheaper" things to use karma with, a sam has the same potential. A high level sam running betaware with things like nano-tech biomonitors and synaptic accelerators is going to be just as insane as a magician. And he will probably have a wider selection of skills outside of combat, because the mage will be busy becoming better at magic. Yea, the mage could do the same thing, but then he wouldnt be getting better at magic. Both use karma, both use nuyen... both use expereince, both use gold pieces... youre trying to figure out which is "better" when its two different things that are good in their own ways.
"Dude but Jedi can use the force, it can do anything!"
"Yea but Jedi have more stuff they gotta raise, so it balances out."
*ensuing repeatitive uhuh! nahuh! uhuh! nahuh! ...*
Actually, it sounds really close to DnD...
"Dude but wizards can use the magic, it can do anything!"
"Yea but wizards have more stuff they gotta raise, so it balances out."
*ensuing repeatitive uhuh! nahuh! uhuh! nahuh! ...*
Sams, mages, whatever all have unique abilites that scale in their own way. While the mage might advance "faster" or get "cheaper" things to use karma with, a sam has the same potential. A high level sam running betaware with things like nano-tech biomonitors and synaptic accelerators is going to be just as insane as a magician. And he will probably have a wider selection of skills outside of combat, because the mage will be busy becoming better at magic. Yea, the mage could do the same thing, but then he wouldnt be getting better at magic. Both use karma, both use nuyen... both use expereince, both use gold pieces... youre trying to figure out which is "better" when its two different things that are good in their own ways.
Ive been reading through most of the threads regarding certaing archetype being too powerful, and so far, most of the people who complain base their arguement on how easy the overpowered char can deal with enemies. There are definitely more things in SR than just dealing with enemies.
Can a combat monster sammie deal negotiations like a face can? can a uber full mage make his own death machine like the techguy? can a super adept drive a ultra high speed race car like a rigger?
The thing is, different people have different tastes and styles of gameplay. Some like to fly, some like to sneak, some like to kill. But, not because you can kill all security personnel in a complex by yourself without being detected means you imbalance the game. Its something your good at, and its just right that you do get an edge when you do things that you're good at, though i bet you can't fly an airplane.
Now ill ask you (Curugul). If i sent your super stealth mage on a lone mission to some secret military complex within the deepest parts of the Amazonian jungle, how would your mage fare against a cybered mercenary. Do you think that power foci will save you from the cold and starvation? Would you be able to learn new spells during those cold damp nights your out in the jungle? Will your sorcery and conjuring skills help you in navigating through the dense forest?
Unlike a skilled super commando, mages can only last up to sometime, and without necessary skills, there are long campaigns outside civilized areas where they cannot survive on their own. Ill just assume your GM has not given you anything but another run on the Ares complex.
Can a combat monster sammie deal negotiations like a face can? can a uber full mage make his own death machine like the techguy? can a super adept drive a ultra high speed race car like a rigger?
The thing is, different people have different tastes and styles of gameplay. Some like to fly, some like to sneak, some like to kill. But, not because you can kill all security personnel in a complex by yourself without being detected means you imbalance the game. Its something your good at, and its just right that you do get an edge when you do things that you're good at, though i bet you can't fly an airplane.
Now ill ask you (Curugul). If i sent your super stealth mage on a lone mission to some secret military complex within the deepest parts of the Amazonian jungle, how would your mage fare against a cybered mercenary. Do you think that power foci will save you from the cold and starvation? Would you be able to learn new spells during those cold damp nights your out in the jungle? Will your sorcery and conjuring skills help you in navigating through the dense forest?
Unlike a skilled super commando, mages can only last up to sometime, and without necessary skills, there are long campaigns outside civilized areas where they cannot survive on their own. Ill just assume your GM has not given you anything but another run on the Ares complex.
My point being, that GM's are responsible for the game's balance. Even if adept's started out with 20 PP, id approximate and make the game world look at adepts to be powerful and have the world react on it appropriately. I wouldnt send some cheapass sec guard to deal with them, since everyone in the gameworld know that dealing with an adept like that is like dealing with, say, a dragon.
Thing is, if your game runs for the benefit of the mages all the time, then truly your game will be biased towards the mages.
Thing is, if your game runs for the benefit of the mages all the time, then truly your game will be biased towards the mages.
| QUOTE (Greyfoxx @ Sep 3 2003, 12:25 PM) |
| Now ill ask you (Curugul). If i sent your super stealth mage on a lone mission to some secret military complex within the deepest parts of the Amazonian jungle, how would your mage fare against a cybered mercenary. Do you think that power foci will save you from the cold and starvation? Would you be able to learn new spells during those cold damp nights your out in the jungle? Will your sorcery and conjuring skills help you in navigating through the dense forest? |
Allow me, Curugul....
GreyFoxx, a better question is could Your Face do it better than the Mage (neither having any experience in surviving Cold, Starvation, etc)
Mage prepares for quest and spends 3 karma to learn Alter Temerpature, 1 karma to learn Nutrition at Force 3 (exclusive), and about 2 days to learn them altogether. Mage can Ritual Sorcery the Alter Temperature with 1 dice with-held to sustain it for Magic (6+) hours enough to sleep nicely. Nutrition last for at least 2 days before you cast it again.
Face spends -either- those 4 karma to learn a Survival skill to rating 2 (and still suffers from uncomfortable cold while most likely failing alot of rolls due to 2 dice) or spends about 175,000
and weeks in a hospital to get a nice Digestive Expansion (and thus permanently losing 1/8th of his possible BioIndex, a lot costlier than the 4 karma) -OR- hopes he has decent Skillwires and a nice soft to give him survival skills for the The question isn't wether or not Mages are more powerful, everyones agree that in the correct environment, any of the archtypes can be the 'best'. The question brought on by the survey is do they have it to easy, the questions of the survey being aimed at how cheap spells are.
For any situation a Mage can adapt via minimal karma and effort alot easier than anyone else. Not to mention how stinking easy it is to get permanent bonuses via Quickening and Health spells that make it so Sammie types, who are trying to excel in attributes, get passed by on accident.
Sphynx
[Edit]And considering 50% of the Mages are Shaman's (closer to 80% in my groups) are you serious about your question: "Will your sorcery and conjuring skills help you in navigating through the dense forest?" considering they can summon the spirits of the forest?[/Edit]
to ritualy cast a spell you either need a shamans lodge or a hermetics circle last time i checked, try setting up any of those in the jungle while trying to keep undetected:)
as a face i would burn some cash on a nice sleeping bag and a load of survival rations, stuff it all in the backpack and hope to god that you dont mess up while out in the bush (or keep a radio handy to call in the rigger when your lost, cold and hungry)...
as a face i would burn some cash on a nice sleeping bag and a load of survival rations, stuff it all in the backpack and hope to god that you dont mess up while out in the bush (or keep a radio handy to call in the rigger when your lost, cold and hungry)...
No, the face wont survive. but that's not what he's good at anyway. Now for the mage who spent those karma on all those new spells, can he accomplish some high level talks with some very impt. people like the face? possibly, but then again he has to spend karma for it, then if required to fly a plane, will he even bother to spend karma to take some flight training?
The thing is, if the GM gives diverse situations for players, no single character will turn out to be the most powerful, or useful.
And your arguing to me that you're spending karma for the lone commando mission. I doubt it, especially if you've alreadly plotted out on minmaxing your mage to become stealth specialist(my example was the stealth mage). If ever you did got those new spells, then you wont be all that minmaxed anymore, therefore, you mage isnt all that powerful as you claim to be. If say, you planned out on using the karma for some foci instead, to make you uber, then you'd have to wait a little more.
If you keep on trying to adjust your powers on what is given to you, there goes your argument of being uber minmaxed powerful coz youd be spread too thinly. You could, on the other hand, realize that, maybe, just maybe, having a sammie to back you up isn't such a bad idea after all. Therefore, your skills and abilities become complimentary.
The thing is, if the GM gives diverse situations for players, no single character will turn out to be the most powerful, or useful.
And your arguing to me that you're spending karma for the lone commando mission. I doubt it, especially if you've alreadly plotted out on minmaxing your mage to become stealth specialist(my example was the stealth mage). If ever you did got those new spells, then you wont be all that minmaxed anymore, therefore, you mage isnt all that powerful as you claim to be. If say, you planned out on using the karma for some foci instead, to make you uber, then you'd have to wait a little more.
If you keep on trying to adjust your powers on what is given to you, there goes your argument of being uber minmaxed powerful coz youd be spread too thinly. You could, on the other hand, realize that, maybe, just maybe, having a sammie to back you up isn't such a bad idea after all. Therefore, your skills and abilities become complimentary.
Why do you keep pulling the discussion off track? The question isn't if the stealth mage would do it, read the title at the top: Do mages have it too easy?, They get new spells awfully quickly...
Mages CAN spend every run spending karma on spells to adapt to that run until they reach a point they don't need new spells anymore.
You say if I did get those spells I wouldn't be that minmaxxed anymore? Uhm, for the amount of Karma you'd spend to raise a skill from 6 to 7, I can go from 0 spells, to KOing you with a spell, stealing anything I can see via Magic Fingers, going invisible, adding 3D6 to my initiative, suffer the cold/heat, never worry about starving to death and alot more. Especially if you're doing Exclusive or Fetish type spell learning.
Nobody is asking how wonderful one archetype is over another, we all recognize weaknesses and strengths, but look what you can do for say 15 karma on a mage via spell learning vs what you can do with any other character. That's the topic.
@Hobgoblin: What's so hard or obvious about setting up a lodge in a jungle? Days=Force to create, minimal costs.,, (kinda off topic, sorry, just curious as to what's meant)
Sphynx
Mages CAN spend every run spending karma on spells to adapt to that run until they reach a point they don't need new spells anymore.
You say if I did get those spells I wouldn't be that minmaxxed anymore? Uhm, for the amount of Karma you'd spend to raise a skill from 6 to 7, I can go from 0 spells, to KOing you with a spell, stealing anything I can see via Magic Fingers, going invisible, adding 3D6 to my initiative, suffer the cold/heat, never worry about starving to death and alot more. Especially if you're doing Exclusive or Fetish type spell learning.
Nobody is asking how wonderful one archetype is over another, we all recognize weaknesses and strengths, but look what you can do for say 15 karma on a mage via spell learning vs what you can do with any other character. That's the topic.
@Hobgoblin: What's so hard or obvious about setting up a lodge in a jungle? Days=Force to create, minimal costs.,, (kinda off topic, sorry, just curious as to what's meant)
Sphynx
I also dont believe that mages have it to easy. In my games, its the faces who turned out to be the best players i got. As mentioned in the other thread on ruling the world, they're currently both drug lords, owning their own islands and manufacturing plants.
What i think is true, though, is that mages are presented with a lot more options to fullfill all sorts of roles, but they cannot be as good as the real thing in anycase. A face will always be a face, itd be hard to depart from his purpose, but if he follows his purpose, he'd be extremely good at what he does, same goes with the sammie. A mage who tries to be sammie would not be as good but can be verstile. but he does have the option to be a sammie. Its not imbalancing, just a player's style of gaming, especially if you're the type who wants to do it all, and yes there are players like that.
What i think is true, though, is that mages are presented with a lot more options to fullfill all sorts of roles, but they cannot be as good as the real thing in anycase. A face will always be a face, itd be hard to depart from his purpose, but if he follows his purpose, he'd be extremely good at what he does, same goes with the sammie. A mage who tries to be sammie would not be as good but can be verstile. but he does have the option to be a sammie. Its not imbalancing, just a player's style of gaming, especially if you're the type who wants to do it all, and yes there are players like that.
| QUOTE |
| Face spends -either- those 4 karma to learn a Survival skill to rating 2 (and still suffers from uncomfortable cold while most likely failing alot of rolls due to 2 dice) or spends about 175,000 and weeks in a hospital to get a nice Digestive Expansion (and thus permanently losing 1/8th of his possible BioIndex, a lot costlier than the 4 karma) -OR- hopes he has decent Skillwires and a nice soft to give him survival skills for the |
Or he just spends a few hundred on a survival knowsoft.
Also, the idea that mages are too powerful in that they learn spells to easily, is purely a subjective matter, and is mostly based on the type of game you play in. So constantly arguing and complaining that mages are imbalancing is more of an issue between the player and the GM. Not really a matter of imbalanced game system. It is mentioned in the book that mages are rare, meaning, they're sort of a special breed and should be dealt with in a 'special' way. That idea already gives the mages something to worry about.
Anyway, i firmly believe that mages dont have it to easy, and we play different games anyway so...
Anyway, i firmly believe that mages dont have it to easy, and we play different games anyway so...
Hey sphynx, i apologize if i got a bit carried away back there. I just dont like it when someone complains on a purely subjective matter.
Peace
Peace
No probs, I don't take offense to good discussions, so don't apologize.
Also, I don't recall anyone saying mages are too powerful, but just an observation that what a mage 'can' do (not necessarily does) with Karma far exceeds what non-mages can do. I mean seriously, I can learn 15 Force 3 spells (which is plenty high enough force for any spell) for 15 karma in 15 days. And what I can do with those spells far exceeds anything a non-mage can do with 15 karma (of 10 times that even).
Anyhows, I'm not argueing a case here, we tried a raised cost system for spells and end result was suddenly nobody wanted to waste time learning spells, so we use the normal system as well.
Sphynx
Also, I don't recall anyone saying mages are too powerful, but just an observation that what a mage 'can' do (not necessarily does) with Karma far exceeds what non-mages can do. I mean seriously, I can learn 15 Force 3 spells (which is plenty high enough force for any spell) for 15 karma in 15 days. And what I can do with those spells far exceeds anything a non-mage can do with 15 karma (of 10 times that even).
Anyhows, I'm not argueing a case here, we tried a raised cost system for spells and end result was suddenly nobody wanted to waste time learning spells, so we use the normal system as well.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| I mean seriously, I can learn 15 Force 3 spells (which is plenty high enough force for any spell) for 15 karma in 15 days. And what I can do with those spells far exceeds anything a non-mage can do with 15 karma (of 10 times that even). |
Unless you play with karma-for-cash, in which case 15 karma can buy a lot of stuff. That's 150k in my game.
It's all relative, man
I've never felt mages had it too easy, quite the contrary - with all the sammies starting out with either 15 more attribute points, or 30 more skill points than me, that I'm the one left 'twiddling my thumbs' while the rest of the group get on with everything. Also, since I'm usually the only one who can deal with any unfriendly magic that I have so many dice in spell defence that despite my endless spell list, I don't get nearly as much use out of them as I'd like. So, with an effective Sorcery skill of 3, and at best 3 spell pool on hand after having allocated spell defence I generally use a gun instead of spells when it comes to hurting people. Spells only come into their own outside combat and when you don't have to worry about someone else using magic, but all they do in the end is make up for the lack of skills and attributes at the outset - eg, levitate, invisibility and armour only make up for a lack of stealth and athletics skill and low body and quickness - low skills that end up costing even more to increase because of your low body and quickness.
In the end it's all relative, and all depends on the situation at hand, sometimes it's better to be able to levitate than to have a high athletics skill to jump, but levitation doesn't help you dodge bullets. Spells merely allow a mage to do what he can't do with his own ability, and they're cheaper because each spell is limited to which part of the skill it can compensate for. "But a mage can have both!" I hear you cry, yeah, sure, but can he afford to take Athletics, Stealth, Sorcery, Conjuring, Pistols, and Etiquette at 6? No, but a Mundane certainly can if he really wants, but he doesn't need 2 of those skills, so he can take Electronics, Computers, and B/R skills too - and a lot more besides - skills that magic can't compensate for.
In the end it's all relative, and all depends on the situation at hand, sometimes it's better to be able to levitate than to have a high athletics skill to jump, but levitation doesn't help you dodge bullets. Spells merely allow a mage to do what he can't do with his own ability, and they're cheaper because each spell is limited to which part of the skill it can compensate for. "But a mage can have both!" I hear you cry, yeah, sure, but can he afford to take Athletics, Stealth, Sorcery, Conjuring, Pistols, and Etiquette at 6? No, but a Mundane certainly can if he really wants, but he doesn't need 2 of those skills, so he can take Electronics, Computers, and B/R skills too - and a lot more besides - skills that magic can't compensate for.
I don't find the cost and time of learning new spells to be too "easy". Mages are Karma sinks, and raising the cost of learning spells would just make them less inclined to become more versatile. If it took 30 Karma to learn one Force: 6 spell, would the mage do that, or initiate twice? Learning spells is not a snap - learning a Force: 6 spell requires rolling against a Target Number of 12. They also have to find either a teacher or a formula - or research it on their own, which also takes time. If a mage learns a new spell whenever he has a few days and a few Karma to spare, maybe the GM should look at the Availability of instructors and formulas. They are not hard to find, but it's not like buying soychips at the Stuffer Shack, either.
By the way, Shynx, about that example of quickening a Force: 6 Increase Willpower spell to get +6 Willpower: assuming you start out with a Willpower of 6 (like most mages), you would need 12 6's to do so. I'd want to witness those dice rolls.
By the way, Shynx, about that example of quickening a Force: 6 Increase Willpower spell to get +6 Willpower: assuming you start out with a Willpower of 6 (like most mages), you would need 12 6's to do so. I'd want to witness those dice rolls.
What's hard about 12 6's? My character has 14 dice from a few Expendable Spell Foci (#Foci Force = Magic*2), Sorcery at 7, Spell Pool at 6, and 6 Karma Pool (3 re-rolls). That's like rolling 108 dice. I should average 18 dice if I even need to do that many rerolls, I -should- get 13 successes on 2 re-rolls.
Anyhows, I play at a higher munchkin level than most people on here I think, I don't consider that type of TN/Successes a problem at all.
BTW, yes, if you're only looking at Force 6 spells (which a rare player even learns after Char Gen) then it can seem balanced as you spend weeks trying to get that TN, but if you learn a lower force, or learn it as Exclusive or Fetish to reduce the learning costs, TN 10 isn't all that tough (specially if you're willing to spend a Karma Pool point to reroll).
I'd recommend double the Force in Karma actually, that's a nice balanced 'should I do it or not...' type of cost (30 is an obvious no-brainer, hell-no to learning it).
Anyhows, becoming a moot point I think. Nice discussion though, and I'm quite glad my GM disagrees with me on spell costs as I love learning new spells regularly.
Sphynx
Anyhows, I play at a higher munchkin level than most people on here I think, I don't consider that type of TN/Successes a problem at all.
BTW, yes, if you're only looking at Force 6 spells (which a rare player even learns after Char Gen) then it can seem balanced as you spend weeks trying to get that TN, but if you learn a lower force, or learn it as Exclusive or Fetish to reduce the learning costs, TN 10 isn't all that tough (specially if you're willing to spend a Karma Pool point to reroll).
I'd recommend double the Force in Karma actually, that's a nice balanced 'should I do it or not...' type of cost (30 is an obvious no-brainer, hell-no to learning it).
Anyhows, becoming a moot point I think.
Nice discussion though, and I'm quite glad my GM disagrees with me on spell costs as I love learning new spells regularly.Sphynx
| QUOTE |
| Mages are Karma sinks , and raising the cost of learning spells would just make them less inclined to become more versatile |
I'd argue the whole "Mages are karma sink" argument is a crock. Mages grow QUICKER with karma than a mundane character. I'd argue a 1 million starting sam with few upgrades that don't cost 200+K yen is a true karma sink. Mages have options and numerous fun and different ways to grow with karma... more than any other character. You except me to believe this is a DOWNSIDE?
Now, if your saying mages want more karma than anyone because they have so many great ways to spend it to grow, i'll buy that. But the rarely mentioned part, which is what this thread was started on, is that these "karma sink" mages actually grow the FASTEST with karma. People are trying to push off versatility, and growth potential as a downside, while quietly growing faster than any other character (houserules involving huge yen payouts aside).
Sphynx:
| QUOTE |
| Allow me, Curugul.... |
Thank for the tag, and to answer your earlier question about:
| QUOTE |
| Should a magician regularly treat their watchers/elementals/spirits/allies as cheap and expendable, sooner or later it will backlash on them. |
Thats a house rule, you can abuse spirits (non free) all you like and they can't do anything. If you loose control of a spirit, it has a chance of rampaging whether you treated it like a king or a slave. I'd speculate this is due to the fact that it IS a slave, your conjuring skill allowing you to bind it to your will against it's will.
Cain: I missed your well written comparison because it was at the end of the thread, so I'll respond to that now:
The problem in your example is, the Sam devoted everything to information gathering... The mage spent maby 18-30 karma on detection spells. The mage in your example is i'll say, 65%? as strong as the sam, in some situations even better. And he paid AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE LESS for this. That's my beaf, and the real point of this thread. Its not that other characters can't be as strong as mages in a speciality... Its that a smart mage can be 50%+40%+80% (say, information gathering, combat, stealth and intrusions). The mage is thus at 170%, while most other characters are possibly 110% in their specialties, 10% for various utility. These numbers are fairly artibrary and pulled out of my electronic ass, but do you see the point I'm making? You can't look at a mage in only one area: Look at a full mage in ALL area's. The sum is more than the parts, exponentially more. Add in how fast they grow, and you can see the problem.
Curugul
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