I'm Welsh, more than anything else (which isn't all that much percentagewise, I'm a mutt like that) and I'm pissed off that we don't get more dragons. Two dragons ain't enough for Wales, we should have like fifty Greats, cause dragons are cool and Wales is cool.

OMG boycott SR unfair to the Welsh!

On a serious note: the biggest problems I have with the history all tie into the disintegration of the US. It's clear that designers thought it was a cool idea (which it is) and pulled some strings to make things work out like that, but people here have done the math and it just doesn't make much sense. I still run my games in the canon world, because 1) it *is* cool and 2) I don't have the time, knowledge, or energy to change it. But SAIM and Lone Eagle? Please. About as likely as concentration camps, and the Ghost Dance overturning an ENTIRE NATION'S MILITARY.

But another rant for another day.

I don't want to start a raging debate on the civil war, but I have read twice here someone saying that it wasn't about slavery blah blah. It was just one issue among many.

One word: Hooey.

That's right I said hooey.

The civil war was about the enslavement of an entire people because of the color of their skin. It was about the South not wanting to give up what they saw as their only economic advantage over the north. Slaves.

Were there other mitigating reasons, of course. But the central focus and reason for the civil war was freedom.

Thomas Jefferson put that "all men are created equal" on the Declaration of Independence.

He also said this included black men. None of the southern states would sign it if it meant having to give up their slaves. So don't give me this crap about sovereignty and power. To say anything else, to make the war about anything else. To look back and say 'well they thought it was about slavery, but really it was about the north doing this, or the south doing that," devalues the three-quarters of a million Americans who died fighting for what they believe.

The problem with that is that Lincoln essentially offered the South the chance to keep slavery if they came back into the fold. They didn't, so it was abolished, but he did offer.

~J

Of course he did. He feared that the country he loved would be forever destroyed by a civil war. How many other countries have survived civil wars intact? Very few.

Does that mean he didn't belive slavery was wrong? No. It just meant he didn't want to see his country ruined.

Lincoln offered the South the option to keep slavery to join the Union. They declined. The South offered to abolish slavery to keep their independence. The Union declined. Yeah, this war was all about slavery....

I know it's really hard to pay attention to facts and avoid propaganda when it comes to history in the US, but when you've got the facts shoved in your face, it might be wise to pay attention to them...

The Abstruse One

Oversimplification is fun!

What Facts are you talking about? And who's interpretations of these facts?

How about this fact.

It is a statement from the Georgia declaration of succession. It isn't personal opinion, and it isn't conjecture on what they where thinking. It is the stated reason why they were succeeding. Now there were other reasons, but this was their primary reason.

How about you just call me a nazi now and we can get this over with?

The Abstruse One

I am offended at how us trolls are portrayed. We should only have -1 to intelligence and charisma.

My ancestry is known to include some native american tribe, though I can't remember who at all. And there are suggestions of both French and Irish.

But my real people are easy to figure out, and they got the best treatment. Deckers.

I never said I was GOOD at it.

Hence the warning!

I'm kinda sorry that I didn't enter this thread earlier.

Anyway, I'd first like to throw in my 2 on the whole Civil War thing. A (I think) large reason is the election of Lincoln. All of the Southern states voted against and all of the Northern states voted for him, and if you're supposed to have an even amount of influence in the government you'd think that election would go some other way. So, the entirety of the North out-voted the entirety of the South, so even if slavery weren't involved I could understanding wanting out of a government like that. Besides, exactly how many Southern soldiers were slave owners?

Ok, now for the topic at hand. As you may have noticed from my location, I've had some experience with the LDS church, after all my brother is a returned missionary and my parents are fairly devout. I was raised in the church, know quite a bit of church history, have for 19 years regularly attended meetings, and have friends who are are currently serving missions (BTW, I'm 19 and kind of 'expected' to serve). Anyway, now that you know were I'm coming from, I think that the situation in Salt Lake City is quite accurate. If all of the "non-members" left, the city and the surrounding area would become VERY xenophobic, hell it's that way know. As I mentioned earlier, I'm "expected" to serve a mission, and since I'm not, they'd prefer to not notice me (of course they've been doing that for some time).

I've got some Amerind blood, a fair amount of German and English, some Scottish (Clan McKay, represent!), and a bunch of other stuff scattered around.

~J

I'm a WASP Nerd.

Nerds weren't cool in the USA in 1989 (not until the tech boom of 1995-1999), but they were made cool in Shadowrun. Nerds in Shadowrun can run around with submachine guns, and are an important part of any team. Right up there with Claymore-wielding Trolls and tree-hugging Elven magicians.

My wife is 1/4 Native American, and plays a full-blooded Indian in Shadowrun. She is mild in everything but driving, but her chromed character kicks butt. She recognizes that Shadowrun is Fantasy, and hasn't objected to how Native Americans are presented. She likes the Native American Nations, and they also have Council Island (prime real estate in the middle of Lake Washington).

Unlike the Texans we've heard from above, who feel virtually ignored, my town gets way too much attention in the books. This minor town of 46,480 people has an incorporated area of roughly 4 miles by 4 miles. Although it had a population of 1,426 in 1960, it finds itself 100 years later with areas called "Glow City", "Touristville", and "Plastic Jungles".

I love it.

Nerds are kinda like Vampires. Sometimes they're cool in books and movies and whatnot, but in real life they suck, and few people would REALLY want to be one. It's true.

You're right, I've never actually seen them being cool first-hand. I stand corrected.

I don't think they'd have to be evil...I'm just saying that it would suck to not be able to see the sunshine, to be unable to eat anything but blood (no variety!), et cetera.

Hey, I'm an undergrad cramming for finals in my senior year. I don't see sunlight, and I don't eat anything other than ramen. I chose this life...