Any Aboriginal North American players out there (or American Indians, or Natives, or whichever term you prefer.) ? How do you feel about the way that group is depicted in Shadowrun? For that matter, how do any of you feel about the way your Race/Ethnicity/Faith/Metatype is portrayed?
Full Version: Represent!
I'm either an elf path mage with the mob, or a fomori. Tremble, puny humans!
I'm a smidge Amerind. Just a smidge. The simple fact is that I'd cheer the people if they went and took back the land that they coexisted with (rather than bitch-slapped into submission) years and years and years and YEARS before the European ass-captains came over here and ripped it all off. If Cuba came and took over Florida, or if Canada took Minnesota (like they would, or like anyone would care...heh...I'm from Minnesota, BTW), most Americans would have no problem if we went and took "our" land back the "hard way." However, they'd all start bitching if Mexico took Texas or if Whatever took Whatever else BACK. Beh. Hell, if we got into a war with a "NAN" or Mexico, I'd sooner defect than fight for "our" side. If this country needs anything, it ain't a "good five-cent cigar," it's an [S]AIM revolution (no, I'm not talking about instant messaging).
As for shamanism...well, that's okay. I just think they should somehow go and cover Yaqui sorcerors (ever read Carlos Castenada? DO EET). Whatever, it's not Mage: the Ascension, I don't expect it to mimic real-life belief systems.
One thing that's unfortunate, but still true, is how (in SR) the NANs basically said "Go away, whitey." While I definitely don't agree with this, it's what would probably happen if something similar happened IRL.
As for shamanism...well, that's okay. I just think they should somehow go and cover Yaqui sorcerors (ever read Carlos Castenada? DO EET). Whatever, it's not Mage: the Ascension, I don't expect it to mimic real-life belief systems.
One thing that's unfortunate, but still true, is how (in SR) the NANs basically said "Go away, whitey." While I definitely don't agree with this, it's what would probably happen if something similar happened IRL.
There are no chickens. Fortunately, the GM allowed a cosmetic mod. Decided against using Surge Edges/Flaws, as they aren't permanent and only activate under certain conditions.
Well, you did ask for 'metatype.'
Well, you did ask for 'metatype.'
Eh? How are SURGE edges/flaws not permanent?
~J
~J
Sorry. I meant 'permanently activated'....well, that's what the GM said. I'm not sure.
All the Surge Edge/Flaws might bring me above the e/f limit for starting characters anyway.
All the Surge Edge/Flaws might bring me above the e/f limit for starting characters anyway.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| I'm either an elf path mage with the mob, or a fomori. Tremble, puny humans! |
You're an indian? I never knew.
They're as permanent as being a Mage or Physad is.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) | ||
You're an indian? I never knew. |
I /know/ you did not just say that.
The idea that Native Americans were more environmentally conscious than the settlers is actually a myth. Most tribes actually believed that any animal they killed or tree they chopped down would just reincarnate, that birth rate was mystically tied to death rate, and thus that driving a species to exctinction was impossible. The main reason why they didn't destroy the environment was simply low population density; there weren't enough of them to strain thei natural resources.
Yes, because using almost all of an animal's corpse (as opposed to killing it, then letting it rot, just to get back at some "savages"...now THAT'S ironic) didn't help at all. 
| QUOTE (Kakkaraun) |
| Yes, because using almost all of an animal's corpse (as opposed to killing it, then letting it rot, just to get back at some "savages"...now THAT'S ironic) didn't help at all. |
Well given how hard it was to kill something with a bow and arrow that was pretty much efficiency/laziness. Once they got Guns Indians became much less efficient about it.
I could actually see something like the NANs forming in the future, although by an entirely different means that Shadowrun history. We've already seen vast numbers of Indian Casinos (although precious few Indians actually make any money from them, they're just fronts). With this in mind we realize that, as actual seperate nations, Reservations do not have to obey American law. What does that open up for us? Places where, for instance, cloning research could go on unfettered by foolish Catholic worries about playing God. Places where you wouldn't have to worry about being sued by some idiot over how hot a cup of coffee is. The Government does create stupid laws all the time, Indian Reservations could be places where those laws need not apply. If this resource was used properly (Hint: Casinos aren't the way to go) the Indian Nations could have a tremendous economic hammer to use to empower themselves. I doubt it will happen because frankly Tribal Leadership isn't any Smarter than Washington DC, but it could.
i do it the other way, in SR. the 'white reservations' (for lack of a better term) are great places to set up all sorts of things like that, especially because there's so little accountability for them, both in the game and in the game world.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Apr 28 2004, 10:10 PM) |
| I could actually see something like the NANs forming in the future, although by an entirely different means that Shadowrun history. We've already seen vast numbers of Indian Casinos (although precious few Indians actually make any money from them, they're just fronts). With this in mind we realize that, as actual seperate nations, Reservations do not have to obey American law. What does that open up for us? Places where, for instance, cloning research could go on unfettered by foolish Catholic worries about playing God. Places where you wouldn't have to worry about being sued by some idiot over how hot a cup of coffee is. The Government does create stupid laws all the time, Indian Reservations could be places where those laws need not apply. If this resource was used properly (Hint: Casinos aren't the way to go) the Indian Nations could have a tremendous economic hammer to use to empower themselves. I doubt it will happen because frankly Tribal Leadership isn't any Smarter than Washington DC, but it could. |
Well, yeah... except that they aren't really treated as sovereigns by Congress or the Supreme Court. They aren't seperate nations. They do not enjoy diplomatic relations with the U.S., or with any other country. They cannot engage in any of the activities the U.S. government is allowed to do which states are not (e.g., printing of money and coinage). The U.S. government is effectively (and literally) a trustee for the Indian nations, and Congress has the authority, and has exercised such power, to ensure that the sovereignty is limited.
Indian nations do not technically fall under the auspices of the U.S. Constitution on a facial reading of the text, but Congress does have the authority to impose federal regulation over the tribal lands and reservations, since the land is, basically, the federal government's (Thank you C.J. Marshall for the Discovery Doctrine). For example, since the Constitution doesn't apply on Indian land, and so Congress had to pass the Indian Civil Rights Act so that things like rights to free speech, a fair trial, and protection from cruel and unusual punishment. Were ICRA ever repealed, then it's game on--assuming, and this is a major assumption, that the Indian nations would actually devolve into some sort of savage rule (which would probably come as a surprise to the tribes which have formal tribal courts, and have long traditions of some manner of formal jurisprudence (e.g., the 19 pueblos).
This was the whole point of the Resource Rush. Congress, in its attempts to sell off every scintilla of the government that it owned or controlled (ironically, what happened to the Soviet Union IRL is what happened to the US in SR, made even more humorous by the fact that the USSR still existed in SR1 into the 2010s) had the authority to sell off land (Allotment Act) and mineral rights on reservation lands (which is why even attempts to maintain their treaty rights in an international law setting is futile, because there is no relief without good-will consent of the parties).
However, that all assumes a great deal, which brings me to a slight tangent.
I notice that you mention the McDonald's case, which is particularly dumb when you actually look at the law and facts involved. First, the jury did rule that she was mostly at fault. However, New Mexico is a pure comparative negligence state, and she only received a fraction of her total expenses as a result.
However, the issue at hand is specifically that McDonald's had to pay punitive damages (which were about 80-90% of the verdict after appeals reduced it by about 90%) because this particular woman sued them after nearly 200 people had also won against McDonald's over the last decade, and in spite of numerous verdicts and court orders, McDonald's did nothing to abate an unreasonable risk. And it was specifically because of the nearly 200 cases similar to hers that a jury decided that, in accordance with the very purpose of punitive damages, they needed to be told, "enough."
Finally, this is a canard. Most cases settle, and most cases settle for very little (a human life on average is worth less than $100,000). Most trials find for the defendant in these civil cases. And most juries are quite stingy in awarding any damages (approx. $250,000 for a human life). And most cases award no, or very little punitive damages. And barring a particularly egregious act of negligence by a defendant (such as sending a man into a pit full of molten copper slag in disregard of all manner of safety regulations) punitive damages are generally limited to 3-4 times damages, and are taxed. This case is almost literally one in a million. And the hysterical (often times ignorant) paranoia surrounding these rare occassions ignores the fact that tort law is set up to virtually assure no such results occur.
And to put this into a "lawless injun" perspective, if one of the tribes in the region where this case occurred heard this case, McDonald's would likely have suffered a far worse judgment.
There is also another inherent assumption that there are actually resources which Indian nations can utilize to develop a magnificent capitalist economy (the fact is, the circumstances have ostensibly been there for a long time), and that the Indian nations actually want to become a mindless, soulless, wasteful, greedy, empty consumeristic society like the U.S. is.
Catholics are very concerned about cloning research, but let's not kid ourselves. The reason policy makers in this country don't like it is because PROTESTANTS don't like it. Catholics tend to vote for democrats, who aren't in fashion right now. The people that are in power care much more about what people like Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye have to say about it, which on this issue just happens to be the same as what the Catholics say.
In response to Panzergeist, I don't think I can agree with you about the environmental soundness of pre-colonial Amerinds. My brother's an archeologist/anthropologist and we've argued that topic lots. He's got me pretty convinced that tribal practices (which included controling population density) did make for a stable ecosystem. Sort of an "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach that would avoid nasty industrial revolutions and such. Unfortunately, that kind of culture doesn't hold up too well against the "conquer and exploit" practices of some European countries with too much time and money on their hands. And then convincing ourselves that "They would've done it to themselves anyway." just becomes such a convenient concience soother. Ah, progress...
But in an effort to rescue my thread from hijacking, I'll re-pose my original question: How do you feel about the depiction of "your people" in Shadowrun? Whatever "your people" might be; Amerinds, Scots, Texans, Chinese, the disabled, lawyers, mimes, football players, homosexuals, computer hackers. You tell me.
To use myself as an example: I'm a middle-class white male, so no biggie, but I'm also a liberal (dare I venture socialist?) minded Canadian, so I'm probably best represented by the "flaky" policlubs, IOND, pinkskins and so-on. I'd have to say that we got off pretty easy, as those sort of people are depicted as having some real power and influence in the sixth world as opposed to just getting dumped on by corp heavy hitters and policos. And my hometown just made it inside the border of the UCAS. I'm not sure that I'd want that....
But in an effort to rescue my thread from hijacking, I'll re-pose my original question: How do you feel about the depiction of "your people" in Shadowrun? Whatever "your people" might be; Amerinds, Scots, Texans, Chinese, the disabled, lawyers, mimes, football players, homosexuals, computer hackers. You tell me.
To use myself as an example: I'm a middle-class white male, so no biggie, but I'm also a liberal (dare I venture socialist?) minded Canadian, so I'm probably best represented by the "flaky" policlubs, IOND, pinkskins and so-on. I'd have to say that we got off pretty easy, as those sort of people are depicted as having some real power and influence in the sixth world as opposed to just getting dumped on by corp heavy hitters and policos. And my hometown just made it inside the border of the UCAS. I'm not sure that I'd want that....
it's not that they'd have done it anyway--it's that their way of life couldn't support the kind of population growth that more progressive cultures did. the indians didn't have a large enough population to make the kinds of messes that we can. native americans weren't necessarily save-the-land nuts; they simply didn't have the numbers necessary to affect ecosystems on a large scale.
Note what I said about population control. They chose a way of life that wouldn't lead to overpopulation. It was no accident, these are not short sighted people. Apparently, if left to themselves, they wouldn't have had population problems. Look up population expansion rates in Europe before and after the industrial revolution, and look up (what little there is on) population rates in the Americas extrapolated before and after colonialization. I wish I could tell you more, but my brother's the expert, and he's not here.
Don't get me wrong. This is not "They had life figured out and we didn't." I'm not idealizing anybody's culture. I'm just saying they had ecological harmony down a lot better than most. To be fair, it's very obvious that the incoming Europeans knew more about how to profit on a land deal or field an army. That population control obviously worked against Aboriginals when they had to compete for turf.
Edit: expanded on my point in the first paragraph.
Don't get me wrong. This is not "They had life figured out and we didn't." I'm not idealizing anybody's culture. I'm just saying they had ecological harmony down a lot better than most. To be fair, it's very obvious that the incoming Europeans knew more about how to profit on a land deal or field an army. That population control obviously worked against Aboriginals when they had to compete for turf.
Edit: expanded on my point in the first paragraph.
| QUOTE |
| Well, yeah... except that they aren't really treated as sovereigns by Congress or the Supreme Court. They aren't seperate nations. They do not enjoy diplomatic relations with the U.S., or with any other country. They cannot engage in any of the activities the U.S. government is allowed to do which states are not (e.g., printing of money and coinage). The U.S. government is effectively (and literally) a trustee for the Indian nations, and Congress has the authority, and has exercised such power, to ensure that the sovereignty is limited. |
I'm aware of these facts. I actually live on Reservation Land (In Oklahoma actually, in the Sac and Fox Nation) and have observed these things first hand many times. Nonetheless, Indian Reservation land has the right to do things that private and government owned land does not. Quite a few reservations actually did print their own scrip and used it but it was vastly more convinient to just use American Currency so after the first few years they gave it up.
| QUOTE |
| I notice that you mention the McDonald's case, which is particularly dumb when you actually look at the law and facts involved. First, the jury did rule that she was mostly at fault. However, New Mexico is a pure comparative negligence state, and she only received a fraction of her total expenses as a result. |
I'm also aware the woman did not recieve several million dollars. However it still went to court and McDonald's still had monumental legal fees which exceeded what the woman got greatly. The need for huge legal departments to protect yourself from frivilous lawsuits is a drain on all major businesses.
| QUOTE |
| And to put this into a "lawless injun" perspective, if one of the tribes in the region where this case occurred heard this case, McDonald's would likely have suffered a far worse judgment. |
I have no experience with the tribes there so I'll accept your opinion of this. Out here she would have gotten the legal equivalent of a trout to the face.
| QUOTE |
| There is also another inherent assumption that there are actually resources which Indian nations can utilize to develop a magnificent capitalist economy (the fact is, the circumstances have ostensibly been there for a long time), and that the Indian nations actually want to become a mindless, soulless, wasteful, greedy, empty consumeristic society like the U.S. is. |
No resources were involved in my statement, if you bothered to actually read it rather than jump on my mention of a single legal trial 15 years ago as an example. I mentioned cloning, avoidance of legal issues, etc. The Reservations around here have no natural resources but have, as I mentioned, the ability to ignore certain laws. That should make them desirable for things like research.
And We Indians around here certainly want to become that kind of society. While many of us still study Indian religions (I know one quite strange Kook who has a patchwork version of Christianity in which the Golden Eagle is Jesus Ressurected form), history, and customs nobody I know of would be interested in putting on a Breechclout and trying to kill a Buffalo with flint-tipped arrows for our supper. I can't speak for whichever reservation you live on, of course.
And We Indians around here certainly want to become that kind of society. While many of us still study Indian religions (I know one quite strange Kook who has a patchwork version of Christianity in which the Golden Eagle is Jesus Ressurected form), history, and customs nobody I know of would be interested in putting on a Breechclout and trying to kill a Buffalo with flint-tipped arrows for our supper. I can't speak for whichever reservation you live on, of course.
Actually, I would try that. But only if I had paramedics nearby and I could give up and drive home for ice cream if I wanted. You should see me in a loincloth.
No I shouldn't.
As a Texan and a Southerner, I can say they got Texas and the CAS almost right with one major exception. Texas would NOT give up that easily if Aztlan came in and invaded. Gun ownership is I believe the highest in Texas (not specifically handguns, but just guns because almost everyone has granddad's old scattergun in a closet or attic), and the mentality here is very reactionary when it comes to actual attacks. Hell, you've thought Al Qaeda had wiped their ass with the Texas flag the way some people took it personally even though all the attacks were on the East Coast. There are even signs up all over the area here that say "Terrorists, Don't Mess with Texas! Remember the Alamo!" If Aztlan did attack Texas, there'd be a VERY large influx of fresh meat in the military and quite a few militias more than ready to attack.
However, I feel that Texas has been misrepresented in the fact that Dallas/Ft. Worth gets almost all the coverage from SR and Houston's only been mentioned twice that I recall (Missions and Prime Runners). As of right now, Houston is the 4th largest city in the country and has already done what was a "big deal" for Seattle to do, in annexing various local cities into their own. Houston's sprawling out like crazy as there's plenty of room to build out rather than being forced to build up like most East Coast cities, so the Houston Metro Area could probably be considered 40-50 miles wide and 60 miles tall (It's straight city from Galveston to damn near Conroe). DFW, on the other hand, is really two distinct cities who just happen to be pretty close to each other and so both large enough that they're associated together. Houston's also huge in the medical fields and the hospital in Houston is literally larger than my hometown.
But I've bitched about this before only to be told basically "Quit your whining". It's just sad when I live next to the 4th largest city in the country and no one seems to know a damn thing about it. I tell people I'm from Texas and they automatically assume I ride a horse to work where I run the electric chair before coming home to maintain my personal oil field...
The Abstruse One
However, I feel that Texas has been misrepresented in the fact that Dallas/Ft. Worth gets almost all the coverage from SR and Houston's only been mentioned twice that I recall (Missions and Prime Runners). As of right now, Houston is the 4th largest city in the country and has already done what was a "big deal" for Seattle to do, in annexing various local cities into their own. Houston's sprawling out like crazy as there's plenty of room to build out rather than being forced to build up like most East Coast cities, so the Houston Metro Area could probably be considered 40-50 miles wide and 60 miles tall (It's straight city from Galveston to damn near Conroe). DFW, on the other hand, is really two distinct cities who just happen to be pretty close to each other and so both large enough that they're associated together. Houston's also huge in the medical fields and the hospital in Houston is literally larger than my hometown.
But I've bitched about this before only to be told basically "Quit your whining". It's just sad when I live next to the 4th largest city in the country and no one seems to know a damn thing about it. I tell people I'm from Texas and they automatically assume I ride a horse to work where I run the electric chair before coming home to maintain my personal oil field...
The Abstruse One
| QUOTE (Kakkaraun) |
| One thing that's unfortunate, but still true, is how (in SR) the NANs basically said "Go away, whitey." While I definitely don't agree with this, it's what would probably happen if something similar happened IRL. |
One of my best friends married a gal who was 100% native american. When they visited her family, who lived on indian land in NY, he said he realized the way some people feel. He said but the glaring and outright nastiness was hard to take. I don't think it would take alot to encourage people to "pay back" the hospitality given. I think the NAs have really gotten the shaft al around, and since I'm a 1/4 cherokee i can get on my box and bitch!
Abstruse: couldn't agree more. And I cannot see why Mexico's military suddenly becomes competent after 500 years of cultural lethargy. When I'm driving down the streets and see the checkpoint guards are 15 year old conscripts with SAWs the only way you can really extrapolate a Mexican victory is through the use of convieniently powerful magic and the standard OMG ZERG RUSH school of tactics.
Aztlan has some serious drek going on. I wouldn't compare them to Mexico.
~J
~J
Which is my point. Other than the introduction of magic, I don't see why there should be any difference between them and now. I find the concept of people spontaneously turning into orks and trolls more believable than the Mexico-Atzlan transition as far as sheer amount of nonfunctionalism that appears to have disappeared.
I still think as a Texan i agree with Abtruse.....
Houston is and will be the first sprawl, it already is... I wonder when I will be annexed by houston, and I liive 2 hours away near Austin...
anyway, even if Atzlan pulled out the major mojo, the texas insurgency would likely look a lot more like the Iraqis in fallujah, lots of dead texians, and very very expensive monetarily for atzlan. besides, there are awakened texans too...
anyway... as my Location says, I have issues with the way texas is treated in the Cannon timeline... I don't think they would have ever rejoined the CAS, they have too many resources on there own to do that. they have Galveston one of the largest ports in the nation, they have refinery row in Chorpus, and lots of natural resources. and don't forget that Lone Start is Based in Texas, likely not too take to kindly to those Atzlan interlopers, and have the firepower to make a difference on the ground.
just my 2 cents.
-Mike R.
Houston is and will be the first sprawl, it already is... I wonder when I will be annexed by houston, and I liive 2 hours away near Austin...
anyway, even if Atzlan pulled out the major mojo, the texas insurgency would likely look a lot more like the Iraqis in fallujah, lots of dead texians, and very very expensive monetarily for atzlan. besides, there are awakened texans too...
anyway... as my Location says, I have issues with the way texas is treated in the Cannon timeline... I don't think they would have ever rejoined the CAS, they have too many resources on there own to do that. they have Galveston one of the largest ports in the nation, they have refinery row in Chorpus, and lots of natural resources. and don't forget that Lone Start is Based in Texas, likely not too take to kindly to those Atzlan interlopers, and have the firepower to make a difference on the ground.
just my 2 cents.
-Mike R.
Aztlan is Horror-backed. Texas just has a few centuries of state pride.
~J
~J
national it's National pride in the Republic of Texas (we were a nation for almost 10 years... that's better than .... ummm.... something.
-mike R
it's National pride in the Republic of Texas (we were a nation for almost 10 years... that's better than .... ummm.... something.-mike R
Admittedly that was because the US didn't want to let them in just yet because of the whole messy balance between free and slave states...
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Aztlan is Horror-backed. Texas just has a few centuries of state pride. ~J |
Being horror backed does not mean your people on the ground are competently led or directed. Keep in mind that the Texans STOPPED the invasion, the Azzies didn't just get to San Antonio and decide "oops, don't want no more, better stop here."
"One of my best friends married a gal who was 100% native american. When they visited her family, who lived on indian land in NY, he said he realized the way some people feel. He said but the glaring and outright nastiness was hard to take. I don't think it would take alot to encourage people to "pay back" the hospitality given. I think the NAs have really gotten the shaft al around, and since I'm a 1/4 cherokee i can get on my box and bitch!"
This is a big problem, and it also occurs among blacks in this country. The simple fact of the matter is this: you're not going to help your cause by being mean to people who agree with it just 'cause they "haven't experienced your pain" or whatever.
As for my "group..." well, okay. I'm a (really) lower-class, white, American of chiefly Irish descent. For the lower-class part, well, yep, that's dead-on. Things will get worse and worse for the lower class as the years wear on. As for being Irish, well, I don't know enough about Tir nA nOg.
I'm also a Heavy Liberal Quasi-Socialist type, so...yeah, I'd probably be in a policlub. Or maybe, just for shits and giggles, I'd join TerraFirst!
Actually...McBean (HUNTER THOMPSON! HE'S HUNTER FREAKING THOMPSON!) was born in 89, right? So...I'm McBean, with a little bit of date-fudging. Cool.
This is a big problem, and it also occurs among blacks in this country. The simple fact of the matter is this: you're not going to help your cause by being mean to people who agree with it just 'cause they "haven't experienced your pain" or whatever.
As for my "group..." well, okay. I'm a (really) lower-class, white, American of chiefly Irish descent. For the lower-class part, well, yep, that's dead-on. Things will get worse and worse for the lower class as the years wear on. As for being Irish, well, I don't know enough about Tir nA nOg.
I'm also a Heavy Liberal Quasi-Socialist type, so...yeah, I'd probably be in a policlub. Or maybe, just for shits and giggles, I'd join TerraFirst!
Actually...McBean (HUNTER THOMPSON! HE'S HUNTER FREAKING THOMPSON!) was born in 89, right? So...I'm McBean, with a little bit of date-fudging. Cool.
who's McBean.... My wife is a McBean.... ???
-Mike R.
-Mike R.
Prime Runners. He's a freako journalist. Look him up in the timeline thingamajigger.
In the western half of the North American continent, the main pass time of the natives was slaughtering eachother. That's what they did for fun. Wiping out whole vilages, except for the women taken as slave's. They murdered eachother for shiny objects, horses, or just because they could get away with it. The only reason they didn't wipe us out is that we came in big enough groups to fight back.
Trying to paint them as poor maltreated noble savages is stupid. They were just people. Some were noble or honorable. Some were slimy backstabbers. Most were in between, like people with any other color skin. Some adapted and were assimilated, most of the rest were destroyed, and some were given free land and money on which to drink their lives away.
The same thing happened in North America before. The ones mostly wiped out by the white people were not the same race as the ones who were here before them. The "poor downtrodden indians" wiped them out. The Anasazi were wiped out by the Navajo, etc etc etc.
We'd all get along better if we'd quit with the revisionist history, face facts as they were, and accept eachother as people, rather than different races.
Trying to paint them as poor maltreated noble savages is stupid. They were just people. Some were noble or honorable. Some were slimy backstabbers. Most were in between, like people with any other color skin. Some adapted and were assimilated, most of the rest were destroyed, and some were given free land and money on which to drink their lives away.
The same thing happened in North America before. The ones mostly wiped out by the white people were not the same race as the ones who were here before them. The "poor downtrodden indians" wiped them out. The Anasazi were wiped out by the Navajo, etc etc etc.
We'd all get along better if we'd quit with the revisionist history, face facts as they were, and accept eachother as people, rather than different races.
| QUOTE (Fahr) |
| national it's National pride in the Republic of Texas (we were a nation for almost 10 years... that's better than .... ummm.... something. |
It's not better than Vermont, for one. We were independent for 14 years before they tacked enough amendments guaranteeing basic rights onto the U.S. Constitution that they approached the freedoms guaranteed by our national constitution and we were willing to agree to join the Union. And even then, it took another 75 years, and a war in which we did more than our fair share of the ass-kicking, to get the U.S. to abolish slavery the way we did in the very first article of our constitution in 1777.
I suppose you Texans did better than California, which was only debatably ever actually independent, and even that for not more than a year. Congrats, I guess.
well here here for vermont too then!
though by that estimation, wouldn't most of the thirteen originals have similar fates? I believe the original articles of confederation allowed all what we now call states to be soveirgn nations... though my american history is kinda rusty so I could be wrong...
not to turn too far off subject but that war was more about states rights vs federal rights than it was about slavery, not to say that slavery was not the issue that sparked the debate, but you usually didn't see southerners rallying to the cry of "Keep our Slaves".
but enough on civil war... I've never been to vermont, so i didn't know there was another state in the Union that still considers itself a nation even today. Texas is AFAIK the only state whose flag is required to fly equal the starts and stripes. and to add oddness too it all, Legally it is unclear if Texas was ever properly brought back into the union at all, even if practically it is a moot point. Legally, the US of A is still at war with Texas from the civil war, they declared peace with everyone but Texas...
we have a large amount of strong nationalism in texas that leads me to believe that they would not have rejoined the confederacy. and would have followed Sam Houstons advice to Texas at the beginning of the Civil war, and become and independant nation again.
-Mike R.
though by that estimation, wouldn't most of the thirteen originals have similar fates? I believe the original articles of confederation allowed all what we now call states to be soveirgn nations... though my american history is kinda rusty so I could be wrong...
not to turn too far off subject but that war was more about states rights vs federal rights than it was about slavery, not to say that slavery was not the issue that sparked the debate, but you usually didn't see southerners rallying to the cry of "Keep our Slaves".
but enough on civil war... I've never been to vermont, so i didn't know there was another state in the Union that still considers itself a nation even today. Texas is AFAIK the only state whose flag is required to fly equal the starts and stripes. and to add oddness too it all, Legally it is unclear if Texas was ever properly brought back into the union at all, even if practically it is a moot point. Legally, the US of A is still at war with Texas from the civil war, they declared peace with everyone but Texas...
we have a large amount of strong nationalism in texas that leads me to believe that they would not have rejoined the confederacy. and would have followed Sam Houstons advice to Texas at the beginning of the Civil war, and become and independant nation again.
-Mike R.
How does the Mexico to Aztlan transformation happen? The Spirit of Choatemoc. Mexico is ripe for the oppurtunity of a skillful leader, or perhaps even a series of leaders to bring the people together with a fanatic's zeal. And recalling the glory of Aztlan, of Choatemoc(last emperor of Aztlan) is the way. ORO becomes a rising power, filled with money and the vision to control a large nation.
It becomes Aztechnology, and begins the proces of recalling the glorious Aztec heritage. And this can turn a huge number of the poor and down-trodden into fanatics. Fanatics who believe they are reclaiming ancestrel ground, and claiming additional land for their people to live on(we can call it "leubenstraum" if you want). Fanaticism can mean alot in combat. As would large numbers, and increasingly better equipment.
However, In my mind, I don't see the Azzie-Texas-CAS problem being so easily ignored. I play it up as a constant low-intensity conflict. There's horseloads of paramilitary types floating in the DMZ, ranging from Aztlan proponents, to Texans with guns and the balls to start fights. Then mix in the covert support from either real military?
Neither the Aztlan or the CAS military will pull troops off the border to de-escelate, because they fear a war. They can't send peace-keepers into the DMZ to calm it, or the other side will respond. And the Para's keep blowing shit up. Aztlan wants the land, so does Texas, and the CAS would rather give it up, but can't lose the face.
It becomes Aztechnology, and begins the proces of recalling the glorious Aztec heritage. And this can turn a huge number of the poor and down-trodden into fanatics. Fanatics who believe they are reclaiming ancestrel ground, and claiming additional land for their people to live on(we can call it "leubenstraum" if you want). Fanaticism can mean alot in combat. As would large numbers, and increasingly better equipment.
However, In my mind, I don't see the Azzie-Texas-CAS problem being so easily ignored. I play it up as a constant low-intensity conflict. There's horseloads of paramilitary types floating in the DMZ, ranging from Aztlan proponents, to Texans with guns and the balls to start fights. Then mix in the covert support from either real military?
Neither the Aztlan or the CAS military will pull troops off the border to de-escelate, because they fear a war. They can't send peace-keepers into the DMZ to calm it, or the other side will respond. And the Para's keep blowing shit up. Aztlan wants the land, so does Texas, and the CAS would rather give it up, but can't lose the face.
| QUOTE |
| How does the Mexico to Aztlan transformation happen? The Spirit of Choatemoc. Mexico is ripe for the oppurtunity of a skillful leader, or perhaps even a series of leaders to bring the people together with a fanatic's zeal. |
Yeah, they've been doing that for their entire history, only to have it fall into fractitious fighting almost right after it starts.
So they turn ultranationlistic? Hell, they are right now. It's that everybody and their mother has a different notion of what that entails. Why all of a sudden does the Mexican populace trust the government, or the people that claim to speak for it? Or are united for that matter? Now all of a sudden Mexico is no longer a nation barely strung together with a limitless number of unspoken personal (and mostly illegal) agreements and bribes but now jihading for ol' Atzlan? So centuries of socio-political concepts are turned on their head for what? Because the writers said so?
If sr had a background similar to Crimson Skies which says "The U.S. breaks apart into a bunch of different warring nations. Because we said so." I'd have no problems with this. The problem lies in that the SR writers tried to string together an at least semi-plausible cultural evolution for all the parties involved, excepting it seems, Atzlan, since they evidentally wanted a villain nation that didn't involve pointy ears and judging by popular culture and string of recent movies, it seems that nobody much minds Mexicans being the bad guys.
IMO, Atzlan is both ridiculous in it's execution and as I mentioned in an earlier thread, a waste of the wonderful plot opportunity that Mexico would be in the 6th world.
I somewhat disagree with the look at the whole Texas/Aztlan situation as layed down by some of the people here. Now, I know I can't really comment on Texas, being from Western PA, but I look at Aztlan differently.
One thing you have to remember is that Aztlan is for all intensive purposes a subsiderary of Aztechnologyl, and though the army of Mexico may not have been able to smash through Texas, the security forces of the worlds second largest megacorportaion is another matter entirely. They pretty much bulled a WW II style blitzkrieg across the Texas border. In fact I give Texas some major respect for stopping a military juggernaught of that strength.
You have a similar situation in Europe with S-K. The main difference being that Lowfyr uses subtly and cunning to get what he wants, while Aztechnology perfers the use of brute force which never wins it any friends in the long run. (Which is the main reason Aztechnology will always be second best at most in my campaign. The rest of the world can only put up with their BS for so long.)
One thing you have to remember is that Aztlan is for all intensive purposes a subsiderary of Aztechnologyl, and though the army of Mexico may not have been able to smash through Texas, the security forces of the worlds second largest megacorportaion is another matter entirely. They pretty much bulled a WW II style blitzkrieg across the Texas border. In fact I give Texas some major respect for stopping a military juggernaught of that strength.
You have a similar situation in Europe with S-K. The main difference being that Lowfyr uses subtly and cunning to get what he wants, while Aztechnology perfers the use of brute force which never wins it any friends in the long run. (Which is the main reason Aztechnology will always be second best at most in my campaign. The rest of the world can only put up with their BS for so long.)
Mega corps are gigantic financial powers, but none of them have the budget to support the couple hundred BILLION nuyen annual outlay to have a real military.
But Azzie Cheese Fries Taste good, and Azzie is often mentioned as having a phenomenal marketing division. You know, the kind that make you want that 15 minutes of fame even though it means your essence gets sucked into some Blood Sorcerer's conjuring, and you die.
But hey, as long as S-K and Aztech maintain focus on separate continents I think everything will be ok... (in a very relative way).
Edit: Bearclaw, I disagree. All of the AAA's have military assets in my games. Not entire armies so to speak, but enough to enforce their foreign policy.
But hey, as long as S-K and Aztech maintain focus on separate continents I think everything will be ok... (in a very relative way).
Edit: Bearclaw, I disagree. All of the AAA's have military assets in my games. Not entire armies so to speak, but enough to enforce their foreign policy.
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| Mega corps are gigantic financial powers, but none of them have the budget to support the couple hundred BILLION nuyen annual outlay to have a real military. |
I disagree. The whole point of Megacorps is that they are more powerful than any nation on the planet. They call the shots, they run the show, and the only reason they don't make a habit of overthrowing governments is beacuse the Corporate Court says that is a bad idea. (It is one of the major rules that Aztechnology throws out the window.)
You have corps who make their cash replacing the police, Ares Macrotech not only has enough weapons to back up an army, they also have orbital "Thor Shots" that they can bring to bear on any target on the planet. The Japanacorps supply most of Saito's rouge army with equipment and cross training with their specail ops forces, and the fact that these corps even HAVE special forces should be a concern for alarm. Ares has a fleet of mobile oil drilling ships that are also loaded to the gills with high tech weapondry, Aztechnology has been sending their personal sercutiy forces into the Yuccatan to deal with that problem, the Desert Wars are corp wargame/training excercises...
I could go on for hours on all the references of "corp military" in the SR universe, but that would take to long. The fact is that while of it is never called a "military" I find a really hard time seeing it as anything but that. So, yeah, I think Aztechnology wouldn't have a bit of a problem feilding an army to sucker punch Texas.
Yeah, but AFAIK the sizes of their militaries haven't changed since Corp Shaodwfiles (which I listed in another forum on corp militaries), and the largest corp militaries are Lt. Regiment sized, far smaller than most militaries. The exception is Aztechnology, but they did take over the country, so they should be expected to control it.
OTOH, I believe the actual rule was not to overthrow a government unless you can control the country afterwards.
They would also need to spend hundreds of billions of nuyen if they wanted an equivalent to the modern U.S. government. There are many militaries which have budgets that are much smaller than the DoD's.
OTOH, I believe the actual rule was not to overthrow a government unless you can control the country afterwards.
They would also need to spend hundreds of billions of nuyen if they wanted an equivalent to the modern U.S. government. There are many militaries which have budgets that are much smaller than the DoD's.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| OTOH, I believe the actual rule was not to overthrow a government unless you can control the country afterwards. |
The Three Laws of the Corp Court as qouted from Corportate Download are as follows.
1.) Don't go to war.
2.) Don't overthrow a national government
3.) If you break it, you pay for it.
Page 22 I belive...
They also mention several times that it's hard to draw the line between where Aztlan's army ends and Aztechnology's "Security Forces" begins. I can see Mexico getting itself organized with some serious magical back-up to attack Texas. I just don't see Texas sitting still for it at long as they did or putting up as wimpy of a fight.
BTW, Houston's the second largest port in North America, and Galveston's in the top 20 (measured by traffic).
Aside from Texas, FASA and FanPro got the Southerners down ust about perfect, esp. in the mentality department. Most of the people who believe in "Southern Pride" don't see it as "racism", and many (like myself) are vehemently anti-racist. The Civil War was as much about slavery as WWI was about the assassination of Archduke Ferdinan <sp>. It just happened to be the issue that set it off. It was all about mentality. The Southern mindset was more in line with states holding power and the national government organizing them and backing them up, while the Northern mindset was for a large national government. Hell, the Confederacy was even trying to barter a deal to get independence in exchange for outlawing slavery in the new country. It was just a minor issue that was blown out of proportion to justify a rectifying a lot of issues. Plus it doesn't hurt that "history is written by the winners", and I seem to recall even here in Texas that we got a LOOOOT of education in school about the Civil War and how the South was for slavery while we heard almost nothing about the horrible treatment the former Confederate states went through after the Civil War. The North saw blood and wanted to punish the states for trying to leave. I also seem to recall several war crimes committed by the North are glossed over as well (such as the burning of Georgia).
The Abstruse One
BTW, Houston's the second largest port in North America, and Galveston's in the top 20 (measured by traffic).
Aside from Texas, FASA and FanPro got the Southerners down ust about perfect, esp. in the mentality department. Most of the people who believe in "Southern Pride" don't see it as "racism", and many (like myself) are vehemently anti-racist. The Civil War was as much about slavery as WWI was about the assassination of Archduke Ferdinan <sp>. It just happened to be the issue that set it off. It was all about mentality. The Southern mindset was more in line with states holding power and the national government organizing them and backing them up, while the Northern mindset was for a large national government. Hell, the Confederacy was even trying to barter a deal to get independence in exchange for outlawing slavery in the new country. It was just a minor issue that was blown out of proportion to justify a rectifying a lot of issues. Plus it doesn't hurt that "history is written by the winners", and I seem to recall even here in Texas that we got a LOOOOT of education in school about the Civil War and how the South was for slavery while we heard almost nothing about the horrible treatment the former Confederate states went through after the Civil War. The North saw blood and wanted to punish the states for trying to leave. I also seem to recall several war crimes committed by the North are glossed over as well (such as the burning of Georgia).
The Abstruse One
Being Filipino, the portrayal of my people as being simultaneously corrupt, submissive to foreign powers, and revolutionaries couldn't be more true. But that pretty much holds true for any country. While many of us don't actively hate the Japanese, there is a certain distaste(?) of them for what they did in the Philippines in WW2, but I think this holds true for most any country where Japan went stomping around those years.
Awesome comments, guys. I was in the southern US once or twice, when I was eight, so I don't have a lot to go on for portraying 'regional personality'. (And greetings from the other end of tornado alley!)
Dax: you sound like you got a serious mad-on maybe. Need a hug? Make sure you're doing real research and don't fall into the "well, that's what I heard!" trap.
I was really hoping to hear from some Mesoamericans..... anyone?
Cardboard: I guess you're specifying the Japanese 'cause that's what the game focuses on, but you also said "submissive to foreign powers" (plural). If it's relevant, care to elaborate?
Dax: you sound like you got a serious mad-on maybe. Need a hug? Make sure you're doing real research and don't fall into the "well, that's what I heard!" trap.
I was really hoping to hear from some Mesoamericans..... anyone?
Cardboard: I guess you're specifying the Japanese 'cause that's what the game focuses on, but you also said "submissive to foreign powers" (plural). If it's relevant, care to elaborate?
I think he is also refering to the US and Spain way back when. Actually, the US occupation wasn't too long ago...
As an American, I find the disintegration of the US a little... suspect. Even with massive Blood Magic rituals to power the crazy stuff Howling Coyote was pulling off, I doubt the Natives would win. But to debate it would be slitting my own throat. I am not quite as concerned with reality as many of the posters. I just enjoy the game.
I am also 1/32 Algonquin. Which is cool, since the word "moose" is Algonquin.
As an American, I find the disintegration of the US a little... suspect. Even with massive Blood Magic rituals to power the crazy stuff Howling Coyote was pulling off, I doubt the Natives would win. But to debate it would be slitting my own throat. I am not quite as concerned with reality as many of the posters. I just enjoy the game.
I am also 1/32 Algonquin. Which is cool, since the word "moose" is Algonquin.
Knowing that you're 1/32 anything is cool. My kids are gonna be part English, Irish, Scottish, German, Latvian, Icelandic, Cree, French, and 100% Canadian.
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