One of my players wants to play a pixie, a sapient critter. It's a tiny elflike creature
with some critter powers, most notably the ability to fly and the "Concealment" Power.

Critter powers can be switched on and off at will and have no Sustainment penalty.
Also Concealment is not possible to dispel it and it works against astral perception too.

Since the char has Magic 6, concealment will work as a permanent invisibility spell (-6 penalty),
without the few flaws that spell has.
So i have a flying spellcaster that can hover invisible over a battlefield and all opposition
can only Blind Fire at -6 at him.

I'm somewhat concerned, we are starting a new game, and at the moment not all of my enemies
even have 6 skill to attack with.
I can raise the level of opposition, so they have more skill to have at least a chance to hit, but i
fear i will kill my other players doing so.

I would be grateful for a few tipps on what to do. Perhaps someone has had a similar situation?

Area of effect munitions and spells? (grenades, suppresive machine gun fire)
Invisibility =/ Improved invisibility (drone sensors come to min).

It's not Invisibility. It's just a -6 penalty to Perception tests to locate the Concealed subject. Someone will make the test eventually. From there, fire a few airbursting gas grenades, or airbursting flashbangs, or plain old ordinary airbursting explosive grenades. Or just make liberal use of suppressive fire. Can't go prone or take cover while hovering in mid-air.

Or just say "no" to sapient critters.

Concealment is not invisibility. If the player is horrifically abusing it, you need to start enforcing Concealment's flaws, which most GMs seldom do, when they're being used by spirits.


Concealment still requires the player actually hides. If you use Concealment but then stroll down the middle of the street with a machine gun or slinging spells, right out in plain sight, you aren't concealed, literally nothing needs to roll to notice you, see you, and target you. It's a Cloak of Elvenkind, not a Ring of Invisibility.

And things a pixie's size hovering over a fight are going to be high priority targets, because she's going to be just in the right size category to make everything's brain shourt Drone!


However, I will point out that the Concealment power works against everything, when it is applicably used. If someone is properly hiding/sneaking under cover of Concealment, their Concealment field penalizes everything attempting to detect them, including electronic sensors and non-optical sensors. It still works against, for instance, ultra wide-band radar and milimeter wave radar.

we eventually got bored with the stupid writing (and linear progression of some critter powers) and made a Concealment a roll. Roll Magic and the Perception penalty equals hits rolled.

There is of course the problem that people with less than 6 dice in INT+Perception do not have dice left to see the pixie.
In all cases remember the Perception Modifier on the table on page 136 SR4A "Perceiver is actively looking for it" for +3 dice to Perception.
This will help professional guards who should have Perception 3 (Professional) and Intuition 3. If there is any hint that there might be something there, they have these additional 3 dice, because they are searching.

In SR4 a party is gimped if they do not use Concealment power whenever they want to sneak around and in general resolve the run without bloodshed.

I am not in favor to fully limit a character from using it as a natural power, but as always, how your player uses it will be the deciding factor.

How I would handle the various ways this can play out, just to give you two examples...
(i) Scout and Silent support.
Using the the char's magic for nothing fancy, like team support or the occasional stunbolt.
No probs, no serious bloodshed, quite in character for a pixie (IMHO). After-event-reports will highlight how smooth the runners reacted and were prepared for the response teams.
Character and team will gain street cred for professionalism and I will give them less bloody work... and will try to trick them to do some wetwork for a conflict.

If I have to send a team to capture the party the pixie won't be the priority target and will count on surrender after other party members captured.

(ii) The hidden assassin or the invisible artillery.
Street will tell how dangerous the party is. A Pixie combat mage is really a force to be reckoned with. After a particularly bloody run, the offended corp will try to hire the pixie (alone) for an easy kill... or... If a series of runs are targeting a corp, they will pull in specialized personal to counter and frag the character... like a 20+ perception DP adept or drop a strong spirit targeting the Pixie alone (force 9 air spirit in concealment).

This is flat out wrong.

Emphasis mine. First point, it's mystically hiding things. They don't have to be hidden in the mundane sense, they are being magically made unnoticeable. Consequently, it's like they're under the effects of an SEP Field.

Secondly, while ordinarily you don't need to roll a Perception Test to notice someone who isn't hiding or otherwise obscured, being Concealed means you are being hidden, albeit magically. This means you always need to roll Perception to detect a Concealed person or object.

And even if you were to flatly refuse to accept that explanation, I have an entirely separate tack that is just as compelling - ordinary objects that are sufficiently difficult to spot can still require a successful Perception Test, regardless of the fact that they are in no way "hiding" or "being hidden". A microdrone sitting on an empty table, for example, still requires a successful Perception Test [4] to notice. For something "Obvious/Large/Loud", the threshold is only 1, and consequently any drekhead should be able to buy the hits necessary to notice it. Not so for something "Hidden/Micro/Silent". You'd need 16 dice to buy the 4 hits (22 if we factor in Concealment), so you're forced to make a roll.

~Umi

That's the thing, it is mystically hiding things, making them harder to find. That ofcourse would be, if I have to look for it.

I would rule that floating above a battlefield raining down death, makes you easy to spot, if not hard to miss.
In my book offensive behavior goes against everything concealment is about.

But even if one were to allow such use, someone explicitly looking for something that especially stands out in that way, could receive quite some boni on their perception.

Guys, you're not helping the OP by nitpicking.

Let's get back on track.

Which you do.


So do you also prevent Chameleon Suits from working if someone acts offensively? Do you also prevent Invisibility from working if someone acts offensively?

Concealment is essentially a magical ability which induces a "blind spot" effect in living observers, making them fail to observe what is physically right in front of them. You can use Concealment on objects, things which cannot hide, and thus force people to roll their Perception to spot them. "I could have sworn I left my carkeys on the table...", they say, and in fact they did! It just so happens that a tricky spirit placed them under Concealment, so the poor key-seeker overlooked what was there all along. Meanwhile, his Emotitoy's sensors plainly saw the keys and could have easily pointed them out to him if he had thought to ask it.


They can, which is one of the primary ways to combat Concealment, right after using technological sensors.

~Umi

You pointed out an important difference, between physical invisibility (i.e. stealthsuits) and concealment.
Concealment has to do with state of mind and I agree, it creates a mental blindspot. This is why I do not think, that it is all to compatible with obvious offensive behavior, or better said, a lack of effort to hide.

Admitted, I may see concealment uses for a Sniper; those usually are not out in the open though.

I think it is a call of common sense, for the GM to make.
Also I agree, that for a rulewise approach, a perception bonus is the best way to go as it stands. Pixies, may be tiny, but they do stand out (I wouldn't allow for the distictinctive style quality for example), even more so if they are trying to hurt you. I guess, these guys realy need concealment, to not catch everyones attention where ever they go.

The example of keys (moving away from pixies) is a nice, yet unfitting one. Sure, I would, without any protest grant keys the power of "Concealement(self)", such things are so tiny and common, we have a tendency to overlook or misplace them. They usually are neither very obvious, nor do they try to kill you though. We probably could learn a lot about stealth from such objects.

No, they are not. Been doing it for years, and never once felt gimped. *shrug*

So wait a minute Umidori, there is an issue with your example here... Why would the Emotitoy see it and not the guy? Concealment works against Sensors just as well as it does against people.

Concealment is not a mental power. It does not create a mental "blind spot," it subtly but potently alters reality to effect a character's being much sneaker, in the way the Accident power allows for the unlikely but theoretically possible event of all of the bad guys' guns jamming at the same time. It affects conditions such that a character's own stealthy efforts, whether they are as clumsy as those of a one-centaur band, or as efficacious as those of a pajama ninja, are much more likely to succeed.

But they still have to try. There is no roll to notice something which is blatantly obvious and not attempting to conceal itself in any way, shape, or form. Concealment 6 would let a Pixie hide in a pile of dolls and go unnoticed despite the fact she's over three times the size of any of them and her chest is rising and falling. It would let her straighten her body and hide in the shadow of a a lamp post, or cling to the roof of a speeding Lone Star squad car and hide in the dazzling light of the light bar.

It will not let her hover over the battlefield like a goddamn Strato-9 drone spitting out fireballs and lightning bolts and manabolts and stunballs and be fucking invisible. There is no roll to notice something which is blatantly obvious, and spell-slinging is obvious, as is hovering over the field of battle.

Indeed, which is how our GM runs it as well.

improved invisibility as a matter of fact lets me do this

I've been dealing with a mage who likes to use Physical Invisibility AND a spirit's concealment power on him and the gun adept EVERY game. I've been trying to think of ways to thwart them and make them sweat a little because they've been too good at avoiding combat (although I know this IS the point of Shadowrun...)

Not if I have UWB Radar it doesn't.

Dust the area. Use fine ground highly reflective particles that can stay suspended in the air for moderate periods of time. The invisibile object is still invisible, but will clearly displace the particles, creating visible 'gaps'. Shoot the gaps.

You will still take penalties to hit and high winds or other air turmoil will prevent this from working well, but can at least give you an idea of what's out there.

Do you think using some astrally reactive FAB (not the stuff they used in Chicago) or plants would work as well? I know my next run is going to involve stealing some magical stuff.

Sort of .. pages 126 & 127 in Street Magic will explain the various FAB, but FAB I and II only react to astral presences. FAB III would attach to the spell using/astral spirits and drain off their energy, but wouldn't reveal anything really.

Haven Lily will cause a Mana ebb and thus reduce magic in it's presence, but is pretty stationary. Glomoss is not really exact enough other than maybe saying something magic is nearby.

I'll have to remember this. I'm fairly certain he doesn't have his ally spirit manifest on the material plane so it could in theory cause FAB to react. And really, causing the security to realize there's something magical going on would be enough to put them on a higher alert if I play it right.

Another thing you can do is add doors with handles (not electric and thus spoofable).

All the concealment/invisibility in the world will not make opening that door any less visible.

In my game, any decently secured facility will have pressure sensors for exactly this reason. Invisible does not mean weightless. Yes, Concealment will make them harder to perceive visually, but the massive bonuses the guards get due to the computer telling them that there is a weight there that shouldn't be will overcome any penalties.

To help the OP:


Okay, so they can't see the pixie, but they can see the magic they pixie is casting? Allow me to present a scenario:

Guard 1: Hey, there's someone over there casting huge spells!
Guard 2: But I don't see anyone...
Guard 1: They must be using an invisibility spell! FILL THE AREA WITH BULLETS!
--both guards start using suppressing fire to make your pixie's life miserable--

Sadly, Concealment is not a Spell, and has no skill roll involved. And is thus not susceptible to being noticed like spellcasting is.

Ignore, double posted.

You misunderstood my post. The roll isn't to notice Concealment itself, but the spells the pixie will cast after activating Concealment.

Edit: Granted, it's a bit of a flimsy argument, but honestly it's enough of a loop hole to help.

Sorry... That is very true indeed.

The pixie still isn't hiding... he's out there in plain sight.

If I switch on astral perception there is a clearly living aura giving off a lot of light right in the middle of the sky. (remember on the astral living beings are light sources... the astral sky is dark since stars aren't living and normal light sources don't glow on the astral unless they're fireflies). Pretty much anything living and flying in the sky on the astral glows like a signal flare.

Concealment would help him if he was attempting to hide... but flying in the middle of the street isn't hiding spells or not.

Spells are clearly visible as well on the astral. So if he has masking and is trying to look like a bird on the astral... a bird with a ton of spell auras on it is going to put up massive red flags to even the stupidest watcher. Extended masking is limited and even then... his living aura is still clearly visibile... he just hides spells/active foci's aura inside his own.

Similarly he's still visible to to sensors like radar, ultra-wideband radar, sonar, and ultrasound.


Then of course there's always the hand of god... have him make random perception tests... the one he fails is the 18 wheeler which creams him on the windwhield he didn't see... and which the driver clearly didn't see him .

Technically, no, as he still applies his modifier to the perception test, even with such sensors active. It is a straight reduction in pool size.

Correct to the perception test.

There is not necessarily any perception test to notice something obvious to the sensor unless the target is attempting to hide.

And you're not attempting to hide if you're in plain sight only relying on concealment to 'hide' you. It's not as if the pixie is in a cloud of chaff to confuse the radar!

True, but unfortunately, there is no clarification on the "Hide only" action of Concealment. I agree it should be that way, but you know how the Lawyers get...

My bad, I was under the impression that it was a Mana based power rather than a Physical one. Correct you are! It's never really come up in my games, so I guess that explains my mix-up.

~Umi

No worries... It is a screwy power anyways.

Well that is what happens when you design one set of powers for players and another set for NPC/Critters then decide to bring one over from the other side....

The original Windling from ED never had this sort of ability, if anything their garish outfits pretty much ruled out concealing

Indeed...

Windlings did have a substantial Physical Defense bonus from being so darn small, though.

~Umi

I would also point out that Concealment normally only works on the Astral if the user is dual natured.

Some GMs might allow it when the pixie is astrally perceiving, but just as many might rule that the "dual natured" needs to be an inherent part of the creature, like ghouls have.





-k

So does that mean that spirits or other astrally active things could see my players if they had their own spirit using concealment to avoid physical detection?

EDIT: Never Mind... Reading Failure, with a Crit Glitch...

Ruby: This is covered in the astral section of the main book, and in a lot more detail in Street Magic.

Things on the astral can see & hear things on the physical. The astral is a mirror of the world... non-living items are dull grey colorless shadows with no substance on the astral. Life glows and lights the astral plane... the sentient beings being brighter than lower animals... and magical beings being the brightest of all.

Yes, even with concealment something on the astral can spy on the group of mundanes. Concealment provides no protection against astral observers for mundanes who are trying to hide.



The commentary above regards whether it is a critter with the 'dual-natured' power (which it can't turn off and is always viewing both the astral and the physical, which is a huge drawback)... or simply a mage who's switching his perception to the astral and becoming temporarily dual-natured while he blinds himself to the physical to view the astral. (the book has a very bad habit of reusing critical phrases like that... see mystic armor there's 3 distinct types depending on what you're talking about! each different from the other).

The power itself is physical.. it must be used on a physical form... if that form happens to be 'dual natured' that concealment also extends to the astral.

So for a normal mundane human... they're just as visible on the astral as always; they're merely harder to spot on the physical when they attempt to hide. If it's a dual-natured critter like a ghoul, it would gain the benefit of concealment on both the astral and the physical. If they're a mage and astrally perceive... depending on which definition of 'dual-natured' your GM uses the character may or may not get the concealment bonus on the astral as well. If the mage were to astrally project he would not get concealment... If a materialized spirit were to use concealment on itself then dematerialize to the astral.. it would gain no benefit either (purely astral form with no physical presence).


So the purely astral spirit in your example couldn't use concealment to help hide while observing the group.

The other minor detail that I don't think anyone mentioned is that if you have concealment 6 you also have the ability to conceal 5 other "things" at the the same time as you conceal yourself. So it isn't just the pixie that can't be seen.

I'm away from that particular book at the moment... but the Pixie's power is self-only IIRC.

So no the Pixie isn't getting a bunch of extras.

Yup, Concealment is self only for Pixies.

The Concealment power is physical. For someone to benefit from Concealment, the power has to be used on it while it is on the physical plane. Someone observing anyone benefitting from Concealment will have a dice pool penalty as stated in the description of Concealment.

It would serve as a timely reminder that there are several categories of what you can perceive (Perception). I recall that Astral Perception and Assensing follow a similar set of guidelines as Perception.

No roll at all: Anything the GM deems "immediately obvious" (AFB so forgive me if my memory is a little unreliable EDIT: the correct term is "immediately noticeable") but with a caveat that what is immediately obvious may vary from situation to situation, what may be immediately obvious when you are at home and relaxed is different from a combat situation
1 Success: Large, obvious stuff
2 Successes: Smaller, less obvious stuff
And so on.

I believe that there are some examples in the rules that show what you can perceive with varying degrees of success. EDIT: Perception Test Tables - Page 136 SR4A.

Just use the easiest solution: No Pixies!!

Bye
Thanee

On a fun side note, Pixie wings are a valid reagent component.

Nothing wrong with Pixies! The problem is the people who abuse them! You wouldn't ban children to stop pedophiles would ya?

~Umi

*walks away from forums cackling and tenting her hands evilly ala Mr Burns.* Good to know. I had missed that part & the player has been misleading me every since. Revenge is mine.