I remember in SR2 the BBB describes combat spells as zipping from the caster to the target through astral space and materializing at the target. This allowed astrally present characters that were holding an action and close to the path of the spell the chance to try to 'intercept' the spell before it reached its destination and grounded out.

How has this changed in SR3? Do spells just materialize from the ether at the target, or are they somehow 'flung' from the caster to the target?

It seems they have changed. SR3 states, on page 182 (IIRC), that spells, in general, cause things to happen at the location of their target, and that any stuff inbetween the caster and the target is not relevent unless it impedes LOS. Elemental manipulations are an exception to this, explained on the same page.

Looks like they got rid of that. P 182 upper left: "The spell does not actually 'travel' though the glass- the caster manipulates mana to create an effect at the location of his target."

As said previously, combat spells do not travel while elemental manipulations do.

~J

hmmm... Ok, I know this is just a game mechanic, but I want to get a model in my mind for the way these things work.

M&M talks about drain being the result of the stress associated with channeling the mana/power through the mages body, and how cyber/bio interupt the flow of the power traveling through their body. But the SR3 says that the power doesn't show up at the mage's body, it shows up at the target.

Anybody have a simple analogy to help me visualize this?

Yes. Find brick wall. Lower head. Run towards wall. Wonderful visualization technique. Work with most SR rules.

Think of it sorta like paying some bruisers to beat some guy up. You don't 'do anything' the bruisers do, but they wouldn't have done anything if you hadn't paid them first.

[edit]
Well, that dosen't work to well, since the spell effect happens first. Darn, back to drawing board.
[/edit]

No, but I can confuse you further by telling you that the caster's aura shimmers with the energies of the spell as it is cast (P181, SR3).

One good analogy (I think someone came-up with it here in the past) was that you act like a broadcasting antenna, tuning your manna so that the target is the reciever. In retrospect it's not that good a metaphor because it dosen't explain why you need LOS to the target... Oh well.

Nah you paid the brusiers with your credit card (haha, bruise now, payment later)

The brusiers come from where they are (astral space) to where the victim is. They don't come near you at all.

Then the credit card company collects, in the form of drain...

How's that

I'm sure we've talked about this before, but what is the feeling on how elemental manips travel? Yes, barriers block the spell, this we know. But _how_ does the spell travel? For example, a fireball cast at one end of a hallway against a target area at the other end of the hallway:

a) Shoots a tiny fireball down the center of the hall which explodes at the other end.

b) Clears the hall of any and all life, as an F-meter diameter ball of flame scours every surface between caster and target.

c) Usually hits the glass wall the evil GM put in the middle of the hall.


Maybe the example makes less sense with fireball, but what about acid stream? Justify that.....

I go with tiny fireball.

A little tiny fireball with a happy face.

~J

Double-post, I smite thee!

~J

There's a difference between altering something and not being bound by something.

It can't alter the most basic aspects of space/time, but it is not restricted to following those laws. All Newtonian physics can be greatly affected by magic...

Ok ill buy that. but we need to be carefull on how we interpit the rules on how magic is affected by space and time because it could lead to some players cheesing the system.

And spells can travel. They just need to purchase thier tickets ahead of time and show up at the airport at least 2 hours before departure.

Three hours for international travel.

~J

And dragon-forbid they happen to have a pair of toe-nail clippers in their carry-on.

Or a stethoscope. Or a reflex hammer (those little rubber hammers doctors use to test reflexes?)

Sigh. I've created a monster.

Which actually brings up a good question... In Shadowrun, how does airline security check for awakened passengers?

Good point. 1/100 people in the airplane is going to be awakened and probably capible of frying 6m diamiter groups of people in a complex action.

from what i understand mana is available on both sides of the physical/astral line. what the caster does it just consentrating and shapeing the mana in the area of the target(s) when he uses a combat spell. when he uses a elemental manipulation on the other hand he creates the effect in front of himself and then directs it towards the target.

so a mana ball is a sudden consentration (or maybe removeal) of mana patterns in the targets. when you use a power ball the ambient mana shifts pattern and therefor tryes to take apart the physical patterns. (hmm, patterns. i think i have read the M:tA book a bit to many times).

Sorcery
When you cast a spell, what you're doing is forming a temporary astral construct, channelling the astral energy from the ambient mana surrounding you through your body. The difficulty in forming the construct depends on any number of factors, including where the magician is and where the construct is to form (i.e. the target of the spell).

If any condition exists which makes it more difficult to channel or manipulate mana (a background count, magical barriers, mental exhuastion, etc) at either location, then the difficulty of the spell increases.

Note that this does not require a "stream of mana" towards the target! The temporary astral construct, or "spell engine," is a fourth dimensional construct. The casting magician must access the astral plane (channel mana through their body) in order to form the construct (a three-dimensional shadow of the fourth-dimensional spell engine exists, of course, but without access to astral energy it is no more than a complicated thought-shape.) It is unknown how magicians ground astral energy through their bodies in order to do this (one theory is that the elusive Magus Factor is an astral shadow within the magician's genetic code, allowing astral energy to cross in much the same manner as metagenes are activated, but giving the subject awareness of the energy, which can then be learned to be applied).

Consider Ritual Sorcery. Because the magician(s) cannot sense the target directly, they must create or possess a link to the target. When the ritual is complete, the spell engine manifests at the target's location, but /does not pass through the intervening space between the caster(s) and the ragets/. Rather, the spell engine executes at the spot, as well as it can given whatever barriers or conditions exist which impeded the ability of the casters to manipulate mana.

The spell engine is a very flexible and complicated object, which can be modified each time it is used by the caster. This is, in part, why spell forumlae for the same spells at different levels of compelxity do not aid the magician in learning the spell: a more complex spell engine can be easily simplified, but a more complicated spell engine may be of an entirely different shape than the one famiar to the magician! It is good in this case that the magician can modify spell engines to accept more mana for increased effect.

The pivotal abilities of the sorceror are the skill of consciously manipulating astral energy, and the innate gift to channel such energy through their own bodies to realize such a skill. The body of skills and techniques known as Sorcery are, in fact, mental devices to better facilitate the impression of the magician's Will on the psycho-sensitive mana around him.

Consider the metamagical technique of Centering. The Centering skill of the magician, be it a mantra or ritual action, focuses the concentration of the magician, allowing astral energy to be manipulated with greater ease (this even allows the magician to manipulate the energy as it channels through their body, thus lessening the physical and mental fatigue associated with channelling such energy).

Essence, Aura, and Drain
A complicated subject, the aura is a function of the Law of Similarity and the fourth-dimensional nature of astral space. Metagenes manifest because they are three-dimensional shadows of specific fourth-dimensional objects. When the ambient mana level rises to allow these objects to exist, mana grounds itself through these astral shadows, activating the metagenes. In a similiar fashion, all beings possess genes which, while astral shadows, do not do anything unusual in the presence of magical energy. The fourth-dimensional component of these astral shadows, however, form the basis of the aura. As the aura is a component of any being in which consists (and interacts with) psychosenstive mana, the aura becomes, by the Law of Similarity, a mirror of the being in the physical world, reflecting the emotions of the being. Changes in the physical being are reflected on the astral, as the Law of Similarity reflects the difference of the subject from the "Aural Template" supplied by the fourth-dimensional aspects of the genetic code. Because a magician presumably grounds ambient mana through the aura and into the physical body in order to manipulate astral forms and energies, and dissociation of the aura can impede this ability.

<finish later>

So just an idea here. A mage could take a powerball and shoot the bright side of the moon with one shot, while standing on the earth?

He's got line of sight, and there's mana where he is. And some mana on the moon (I think). Granted, unless he's got one heck of a telescope, he has no idea where on the moon he's hitting, but could he do it?

IIRC, background counts apply fully even when between the caster and target without enveloping either. Assuming that, the mage could cast such a powerball, but will face deadly physical damage.

If I do not remember correctly, then the mage "only" deals with the rating 8 (I think it's 8) manawarp that is the moon.

Background Count of 8, and no, that table never did see a SR3 incarnation.

~J

Ah yes, the good ol' days when you could engage a spell in astral combat. What a nightmare those rules where!!!

Heres my take on SR3's rules:

If you think in terms of a third party or "medium" (perhaps the whole of astral space or the local mana environment in the caster's vacinity) than things happen in two parts:

- The caster somehow interfaces with the medium, which involves channeling mana and thus drain.

- The target is then striken by some manifestation of the medium at his location.

The two events are not directly related (i.e. the mana that causes the drain is not the same mana that causes the effect), but are somehow connected through the medium in a cause and effect relationship.

But, no, unlike past editions there is no detectible transmission of magical energy between the caster and his target.

[edit]

A good example from Newtonian physics might be the transmission of gravity. Although there is some evidence that gravitational force may be transmitted by a theoretical particle known as a graviton, there is equal evidence that the gravity on a large scale (think sun-to-earth) is instantaniously transmitted through a warping of space itself, not a particle like light which travels through space.

Think of it this way: if the sun burned out, we wouldn't know for something like 8 minutes (the time it takes light particles to traverse the distance between the us and the sun). If the sun vanished from physical space/time we would all die before anyone realized what happened (instantanious transmission).

[/edit]