So I was going over the grapple rules and I can't seem to figure out magicians can still cast spells or conjure while immobilized.
"Otherwise the defender remains subdued and cannot take any actions requiring physical movement."
Does casting a spell constitute "physical movement"?

In SR4, yes, provided the spellcaster in question took a Gesture Geas then physical movement is required. Otherwise it does not.

In SR5, no, spellcasting requires no physical movement.

Well, no movement except for what might be necessary to touch the target with the appropriate spell. Grappling a magician that knows the Shatter spell is a very risky proposition.

Or any of the elemental aura (SR4) spells... Ouch.

Seems they removed them in SR5, at least until a magic splat book comes out. *fingers crossed*

And even then, the spellcaster can violate the geas and then be forced to deal with the involved penalties.

The Centering metamagic in SR5 needs some activity, and that activity might require your hands to be free. Making arcane gestures, for example.

Thought it required some significant action (like in SR4A), though it did not have to be physical. Is that not the case in SR5? I know that in SR4A, your Centering could be something as simple as Casting in Latin, which requires no physical movement whatsoever, but does require your casting to be Verbal.

Centering appears to be pretty much the same (I think some of the art is from 2nd or 3rd edition in that section), at least flavor wise. You can chant, although I think that is why Shemhazai said "might" require.

Ahh, missed that, even though I copied it. Reading with a Glitch, apparently. *sigh*

Yep. But once it's chosen, I don't think it can be changed. I'd rather be able to get the drain benefit while staying quiet.

I always liked the guys who tried to take Zen Archery as their Centering skill, trying to combine a Take Aim action/Archery/and Magic thinking no one would be like GTFO.

You could always take the Metamagic Twice, with different Centering Techniques. Obviously they would not stack benefits, but it would give you some options.

You can do that (what a waste)... Just do not expect to shoot an arrow AND cast spells at the same time. They are exclusive actions, after all.
And they would not stack... Take aim and Shoot your arrow (and get no spell), or Center with your skill (You cannot take aim unfortunately, since aiming with spells is generally not effective) and use your spell (and get no Arrow). It is a waste to have Zen Archery for your Centering.

Right, I'm just laughing about people who tried to rationalize it out for "versimilitude" or "realism"

Heh... Indeed...
I like Kata or Chanting in Latin, depending upon character.

Actually my main character's Adept Centering technique was taking a deep breath

A Centering Breath, so to speak...

I never thought of that. You're a genius.

One of many ways in which I keep Ares Macrotechnology functioning.

Was your wireless enabled?

Nope... Throwback all the way.

Meh I'm not so sure on being able to case a spell while grappled. While concentration is the only thing required traditions may require chanting and gesturing. Both page 279 perceiving magic and 280 sorcery talk about gestures being part of it. I suspect outside the psychic tradition some level of gestures come with the tradition and can be interrupted by a grapple. I'd put it in the GM call category.

There are no rules requiring any of that, though - as it stands, all of that is there only as RP and Centering - and accordingly, a player would be well within their rights to be pretty upset with that call, because it has basically no support or precedent.

Plus consider are the gestures you are speaking of involuntary or required? It may be a subconscious action to point at someone you are blasting, but the question becomes is it actually required. If not, then grappling probably won't interrupt it.

MetaHumans have tons of little tells, tics and other quirks they do everyday and are often without being aware of it, something any seasoned poker player will use to their advantage, but these do not necessarily mean they are directly connected in the sense that disrupting the tell disrupts the associated action.

Grab the mage first.

I'm trying to stunbolt, but he's got me in a full nelson!

Actually I just sited two rules. Both perception of magic and sorcery state there are gestures in most cases. A player would not be well within their rights to be upset because a GM interpreted those passages as requiring enough in the way of gestures to be stopped by a grapple. Unless something is specific in the rules, that is exactly what a GM is for interpreting those grey areas. And since it never says these gestures can be ignored by the mage whenever he wants or they are such small gestures they can not be restrained by things like grapples it is pretty much up to the GM to decide.

But Pg 280 for Sorcery says:

So it clearly states for this point that only the concentration is required and does not try to imply that the added gestures or chants even impact on this.

Now we could assign a penalty to the casting roll if someone were grappling a caster as it would certainly be an obstacle to clear thinking, but should not necessarily totally lock a caster down.

As for the mention on pg 279, it is a bit broad:
Certainly if the tradition holds with using chants or hand waving it will be noticeable but note that even for the psychic traditions where they don't move a muscle or say a word people still seem to be able to notice the stronger magics with no visual or audio cues required.

So while this helps detect the using of magic, that does not necessarily mean the spells need those gestures/chants to complete the spell, again metahumans have a tendancy to use tells, often subconsciously or as a trained behaviour from whoever taught them or they picked up along the way from watching too much Trideo.

Plus I imagine in the future magic splat books they will be bringing back Geasa and such, so if you make chants/hand waving a standard requirement now, that will be two less geasa to offer your casters down the road.

This was more effective for Adepts in the SR2-3 days, of course. Of course, the books listed this as a clear "Do Not Try To Pull This" trick, so I never actually saw someone try to do it in game.

Yes if you ignore half the sentence it does make it easier. Your tradition probably has.... is still part of the sentence. Again since it is never detailed you can just drop your traditions trappings and it is never detailed what these gestures are it is a GM call.


While it is within the realms of magic to cast a spell with just concentration, usually you need X is how I read that sentence.

You read it as magic only needs concentration but out of habit some mages twiddle their fingers but they can choose not to when ever they want.

It is never detailed which way to read it is right, which puts it squarely in the GMs hands. And honestly why should something like this be detailed, this is so much more flavor of magic and setting choice than it is a game mechanic/balance choice and that being left vague and up to the table is good IMO.

As to why, it is because the OP was asking about a game mechanic whereby would grappling a caster stop them from completing a spell, which moves the issue of gestures/chants from flavour to mechanic.

Your statement that I ignored half the sentence is a bit misleading. The sentence stated what was required and then added on that some traditions may have functions to go along with it.

I could make something similar for shooting where it says, You only have to point your weapon at someone and pull the trigger to shoot at someone, but your combat instructor may have taught you to close one eye or stand in a particular stance before firing.

The first part is necessary to the actual firing of the weapon, the latter is just flavour (assuming you are not trying to use a scope or use the Take aim action, then the one eye thing IS a help.)

Perhaps it would have been better if the line had read as 'At the very least you have to concentrate to cast a spell and your individual traditions may also require chanting,gestures, dancing, and other things as well.'

This could go in for errata, because it will be a question asked at some tables and ideally you want a baseline for New GM to start from.

Plus we did mention that these issues will probably be resolved as Geasa in the magic splat books so players who want to have gestures and chants be integral to their casting will actually be able to integrate this into their traditions with the appropriate effects if the geasa is broken by interference.

That is the problem with a new book, only so much room to fit everything in, why oh why did they stop at just under 500 pages.

Those passages, at no point, suggest that gestures are required - just that gestures are used in many cases. For that matter, the mere fact that it is most, and not all, establishes that gestures are not required for spellcasting. There is no grey area, because there is no suggestion of a requirement. In fact, page 279 explicitly states that you "don't necessarily need things like chants, elegant hand gestures, muttered curses, and a holistic philosophy" to work magic. It's suggested that it helps, mind you, but it is explicitly not required.

Indeed... Me neither.