I brought my opinion, which was asked for. And NOT ONCE did I mention the table I play at. I mentioned the rules and the ability to make a character within those rules. You (generic, as I do not remember if it was you, exactly) were the one throwing around my table preferences. *shrug*

Again... Elements... Shadowrun has Elements of Random (The Priority table is nothing BUT random, in my opinion). It is indeed possible to play without Point Buy, I do it in DnD all the time, and I never said it was impossible to do that. Again, you are putting words in my mouth that were not there.

This... Entirely This...

Interesting thought (All get the same dice rolls). We do something similar, but with static attributes, assigned where you want. All characters have the same array. The Array varies depending upon campaign. Mostly Different Table for DnD than for Shadowrun.

After many years in the Marine Corps, I could make a passable Mercenary. Not real interested in it, mind you, but I could probably do all right.

You could always use the Stages of Dresden Files/Fate System...

High Concept...
Trouble...

Where did you come from?
What Shaped You?
What was your First Adventure (Initial days on the Streets)?
Whose Path have you crossed?
Who Else's path have you crossed.

Not a bad way to shape a character, and the results turn out pretty well, in my opinion.

I think the glory would be that if you add a flexible skill and resource system, you can make schlubs...or shadowrunners...but with a canonically accurate basis for being. Not every sammie will be AGI 9-12, not every decker will be logic 8, and you may not have a single magical asset on your team. Your "Sammie" may have in fact started with averagish stats and just didn't have any other skillsets that promoted him beyond gunman. You may have to make do with what you have, and even outsource a bit.

Now, in that system, the GM owes a canonically accurate world. No HTR four combat turns after the shooting starts. No hood-rats throwing 15 dice with automatic weapons because otherwise, how would the players be challenged by my hood rats? Corp sec who decide, without once shooting at you, that the pay may not be worth this. It frees the GM form the tyranny of needing to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is now challenging enough. the KE shooting at with 10 dice on SA burst? That is now something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it scary.

Likewise, it lets you trully appreciate the value of 'ware or magic. When you aren't the most naturally gifted people in the world, all of a sudden climbing a few attribute points is truly, personally, precious rather than a mere cost of entry to the profession that is apparently inhabited by Rhodes scholars, Olympic athletes, and professional politicians and actors.

likewise, the runner's should not expect to live in anything but a low lifestyle, medium maybe if they all live in one house together, they will barely make enough money to pay for the ammo they use, maybe 500nuyen/job 1000 if they are lucky. Because they are not able to handle the big nuyen jobs until they actually become well skilled & can handle the bigger nuyen jobs.

It is apparently so because shadowrunning is a very Darwinian profession. If you aren't a Rhodes scholar, Olympic athlete, or professional politician or actor, you are likely to be dead or very new to the profession, in which case you will be dead in short order.

The GM does not need to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is challenging enough, even if you are a Rhodes scholar, Olympic athlete, or professional politician or actor because you cannot count on every dice roll to come up with an statistically average score. You will have bad dice rolls, and that is something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it any scary.

Else you'd have to be lucky and roll statistically higher nearly every time to survive and succeed, you might have a canonically accurate world, but I'd be looking closely at your dice. And you could have also had a canonically accurate world, if as a GM, you did not feel the need to generate an artificial challenge.

I get through life and I am not a Rhodes scholar. I would actually say, I am doing quite fine (unless you give me minus points for writing on fictive online boards). Great job, jumping up the career ladder, nice work-life balance, wonderful family, ... I really can't complain. (If I had to, I would moan the shoddy child care infrastructure, although I don't see how more dice would have helped there. More contacts maybe ... )

In SR4 and probably SR5, Edge and player wits are by far the most important factors for survival. Even really talented and gifted people screw up. Usually at higher stakes than normal people. Having a one-trick pony in SR can be great, if you control your tactical environment, but if the GM is trying to get you, you have no chance. The same is true for balanced characters, if a one-trick pony manages them to get into a contest on their terms, they are screwed.

But this being a game and not a life simulation, or even if this were a life simulation, the real question is: what kind of story do you want to tell? A bunch of under-appreciated genuises fighting against other under-appreciated geniuses or some "real" characters trying to somehow survive the shadows. Traveller character easily grow on you, not because they are exactly like you imagined, but because they are so relatable. Not so much an ideal version of yourself, but a role you can slip into.

But that is the problem, Regular people don't survive well in the shadows, just like regular people don't do well burglarizing random homes to make a quick buck, they get caught more quickly because they haven't the slightest clue how to get past the most basic security systems unless they have dealt with them on a regular basis. Anytime someone calls for random joes in a situation, I simply ask myself if I could perform the function they would ask of the random joe, if the answer is no, or I would need some sort of specialized training, then random joe can't do it either.

Yeah, well that is why practically every Shadowrunner has some sort of spezialised training in their character story. Be that military, bodyguard, crime, security (private or public), Technical College, Martial Arts, wagemage, time spent in prison, whatever, ... Only some of the faces and the occasional mage are actual amateurs (and the TMs for some reason, but I guess being a TM makes sure you get to learn the skillz all by ithemselves).

On that note: I always wondered on how you get to be a fence or a fixer, but from a study I recently read, having an MBA or at least some accounting training certainly helps your income with that career. I here I thought those are just hard to get letters to put on a resume... But probably crime bosses read resumes as well. So, if you want to increase your chances to be a rich drug lord, you better finish high school and get a couple of years of college...

(The actual theory is that MBAs have to earn more in crime, otherwise they would go look for a better job in the regular economy. High education criminals are also the most likely to switch between criminal and regular careers. Surprisingly, the margin is often much lower than one would think with the added risks of going to prison, being shot by another gang and so on, but low level crack dealers rarely earn more than minimum wage, some even quite a bit less. I wonder how that compares to the danger premium on military jobs. Although my feeling is that the military pays quite bad, as well. At least here in Germany, they try to get you with free education and the fun to be had. This is kind of ridiculous, given that most education in Germany is free anyway. No denying the fun, though...)

The way I see it, alot of Fences often worked in Supplys for militaries or other item handling industries, some even having legitimate business like a small shop to start off with. Because they knew people or maybe someone came to them one time to offload something, they started a bit of business on the side. Word gets around and other people bring things in or come to them to find those hard to obtain items.

Fixers have to know people and be known, putting the right guy together with the right job so usually the Fixer themselves usually has some sort of experienced background. Again they probably were doing jobs themselves and needed an extra body so contacted some folk and got the job done. Next time there was work the pre-Johnson probably contacted the guy directly, leaving the team build to his discretion. Time goes by and they are starting to outsource the work itself, acting as the fixer.

Actually, randomly burglarizing homes, especially in poorer neighborhoods is really easy. Less than 15% of them are solved. Even less for petty theft like stealing bicycles or shop lifting. And computer crime has become more common for low end criminals, including scams, identity theft and even stealing money from banks. You can find the information you need to deal with most basic security online with a little work and it's probably the same with the matrix. Regular people survive just fine in the shadows. They just aren't hitting big corporate targets. When you play with regular joes, you're changing the scope of the game. Your targets are smaller, your jobs pay less, you have to plan even more carefully, your contacts matter a lot, and plan B is not to just shoot everything you see. Death may be more likely, but isn't that the thrill of it? To live long enough that you have the skills to actually take on the bigger fish? No one deals drugs for the minimum wage or less. It's because they think they can make it to the top and become Tony Montana or Al Capone.

As Thorya aptly put it, not only do regular people do just fine in the shadows of a non-dystopian, non-balkanized, comparatively low key, non-augmented US of A. Often times it is people who you would genuinely consider to be BELOW average who are the gunmen, the burglars, the numbers guys, the drug dealers. Force of will and sociopathy, whether found internally or cultivated environmentally, are often the driving factors behind criminal activity.

Arguments aside, here is the new normal distribution centered on a 3 rather than a 3.5.

Roll stats (base + 2 used as the mean for a normal distribution with each point being a standard deviation)
Roll each stat using the following. Downshift 1 level if the racial max is less than 6:
1-6: Base (Human 1 - this is slightly higher as it accommodates for all the standard devs that would be below base with the new left skew)
7-31: Base + 1 (Human 2)
32-69: Base + 2 (Human 3)
70-94 : Base + 3 (Human 4)
94-98 : Base + 4 (Human 5)
99: Base + 6
00: Roll Again
IF 1-98: Base + 6
IF 99-00: Exceptional Attribute

Actually from the novels and source materials of the books, successful runners are usually not portrayed as peak of human perfection in attributes. They have skills and experience that make them successful. They are not perfect dude street sam, smartest person on the planet hermetic etc. Its just day to day experience in the shadows that help them get by. Yeah sure there are the dragon heart chronicles style novels out there but I don't think that is portrayed as the norm for successful runner. So average guy based rolls probably work well, you will get somewhat above average in a couple stats most likely and those will be your focus stats.

They are not usually portrayed as the peak of human perfection. They are often portray as a cut (or several) above the usual. They are either talented, skillful and/or highly experienced. They are not perfect street sams, the best at what they do, but they are often protrayed to be not far behind and a step above the "usual" runners. When it comes to crunch time, it is not just their day to day experience that help them to get by, they have the edge, that's why they are successful. Dragon heart style novels portray the norm for successful prime runners.

And I will ask once again... What is stopping you from that in the Basic Rules? As a GM, you have the power to enforce that vision. Truly, I am curious.
Epic/Maxed out characters are not necessary in Shadowrun, to be sure, and I prefer the middle line (slightly above average Joe) with a lot of room to grow, myself. I like to hit Prime Runner at about the 250 Karma Mark.

Of course, Toturi and Thorya say it better a few posts above...

Key words worth noting:

Successful Prime Runners.

How much of the shadowrunner population is that, I'm vaguely curious. I'd assume not a very big percentage, myself. I expect a lot more shmoes who work the lower end of the business. You know, clearing apartment blocks for the corps, getting murdered by bird-themed revenants and the like.

When I think of an "average shadowrun team" I think of that criminal gang hired by the crime lord in "The Crow". They were a highly successful dirty jobs team in the shadows, but nobody on dumpshock would consider them top of the line professionals. They consisted of a knife-man (Tin-tin), a seriously addicted gunman (Fun-boy), the arsonist team leader(T-bird), and his idiot brother (Skank). The only one of them remotely professional was the team leader, mostly because he was organized, businesslike, followed orders, and could keep his team in line.

The closest thing to a prime runner in the movie was the crime lord's bodyguard/enforcer. He was professional, methodical, & loyal. The crime lord was basically a fixer.

Sounds like a perfectly fine example of a Shadowrun team to me. And you are right... They are not top of the line professionals.

Tynaeus..yes, you could. You could set avail limits, and try to limit magic, and skill caps, and see how the whole race thing falls in. And you can stand on the lonely wall of GMery vs power creep. It can, indeed, be done.

And maybe..just maybe...if you get that group of players who all know each other, agree on the limitations of being canonically reasonable, trust the GM not to screw them, and won't deliberately try to max themselves within the new constraints to create characters which create over match so they can just go about secure in their safety, and then the GM stands benignly above it all walking the fine line between holding his vision and being an obstruction, OH and you get people over their magic fixation...you could swing it.

But, for everyone else, sometimes the enforcement of impartially conforming to reality is a nice touch. And so we have this.

I was thinking of another movie with shadowrunners:

The Mummy Returns.

That gang hired by the cultists to retreive the box with the jars is a sort of victorian shadowrun team. One leader, one local muscle, one idiot brother (again).

The prime runner here would be Our Hero. He's gone legit, of course, and become a family man... but he's the same guy who in the first movie was being put to death for having "a very good time".

More on the original topic, I don't have a problem with the set-up, but if I were trying something similiar, I'd find a way of inserting some meaningful choices in the path. My fondness for lifepath systems lies in the fact that it usually IS a path, rather than just a random character. Some randomness is fine, because stuff happens. But there should be some choices that help shape the character.

One quick observation... If your players cannot trust the GM, why are they even playing. Honestly, if that litmus test fails, then why is the GM running the game in the first place? It will be an antagonistic experience, from the start, that can only end badly... Of course, if there is a lack of trust, nothing you do to the system will actually matter, as there will continue to be an antagonistic relationship between the players and the GM.

And again, all the things you suggest are not necessary, except for the agreement on the canonical elements of the game. Once that has been obtained, then nothing else needs changing at all. Players will not make monstrous characters, because there is no need for such things... GM's will not feel pressured to create "unrealistic" encounters to compensate, and the entire "Us vs. Them" mentality disappears. You are right, though... The Players and GM have to trust each other for it to work.

I completely disagree that it requires exceptional players to achieve such an experience.

I have to agree here. My biggest issue with the suggestion is that it is trying to be promoted as completely Random. And that really does not work. There MUST be choice to create meaningful "relationships" amongst the happenstance of the "Random" Rolls. Without that, it is not a character, but a sheet of stats, with no life at all, and no real manner of linking the rolls together in a way that makes any logical sense. Yes... a Path is just that... A PATH, that the character follows while he develops.

Don't know if that really makes any sense (been a long couple of days), but there you go.

I will admit my SR experience is exclusively internet based. In the flesh, maybe there is a greater level of rapport. However, lots of internet games are basically open recruitment. And while you might trust the GM, in that situation most players tend to revert to "I better build a small bit of a monster..just in case..."

I'm not sure where I'd fall on this one, TJ. It depends not so much on how exceptional they are, but how they get their fun.

My wife, for example, likes exploring a concept. She builds a total character based on a thematic hook, and fleshes out the character based on her history. She is always competant, but seldom overwhelming, due to her fondness for generalists. Her fun is in slowly developing the character into mastery, with a story developing alongside.

Contrasted to that is a very good friend who will pull out all the stops to follow a concept, sometimes leaving believable but gaping deficiencies in exchange for a unopposed mastery in his particular schtick. His fun comes from getting the most he can out of a system while staying in concept, provoking stories and kick-butt scenes along the way.

The others I play with are much the same to varying degrees. We all have fun, but it's a trick sometimes to keep the game well balanced. And occasionally I screw up and we have an unexpected TPK.

online random games tend to have one major flaw, no one goes into the game discussing what they want or expect out of the game, Most people who play online have a highly varied taste in game even in the same game style, If there was more communication with the GM on where the players would like the game to go & what sort of game play style is expected, monsters would need not be created, because they know monsters aren't needed.

In the flesh or internet, I always build to as optimised as I can within the limits. It is better to have the capability and not need it than to need the capability and not have it. Just in case. I find that it is simply prudent.

The trouble with random character creation is that you don't get to explore a concept or optimize within a concept. You are stuck with what is essentially a crap shoot. And if you can't choose your own background, you can't even decide what kind of character you are playing. A lot of people have a general type of character they like playing - a thinking, scenery-chewing player won't like getting stuck with a dumb troll former dockworker/brawler muscle type, and someone who likes action won't like playing an ex-data entry clerk turned budding hacker.

Now, this proposed system got clarified a bit more when the OP added "if you add a flexible skill and resource system" to the description. But if you let people pick skills and resources, why bother with random Attributes and awakened status? All it seems to do, to me, is to make character creation more skewed, with drastically unequal characters. Isn't there already a huge enough gap between different characters, even when they are created with the same number of build points?

That's still fine if everyone is on board with it, but it seems more and more like the OP has created this system because of either bad experiences with previous groups, or dramatically different ideas about the game than his current group. Either way, it does not bode well. Introducing a new system that weakens characters and takes away player agency is something that will usually be a very hard sell.

IMO your concept is interesting but extremely problematic.

Regarding playability:
It's not going to work very well for people who are motivated by optimizing their characters. Since everything is random, there's just no leverage to appeal to these people. You're usually better off by negotiating restrictions/goals for those people and then let them optimize away within those.
Likewise it won't work with people who want to play a certain concept. You're effectively forcing them to play something they don't want to, which will only alienate your players.

Also keep in mind that there is an easy way to get rid of that undesired character (a.k.a. death - or even worse, group wipe). Doesn't even have to be a conscious decision, if there's simply no attachment to that toon they're playing.


That aside regarding the numbers:
You're working with raw probabilities, but you SHOULD be working with conditional probabilities, since you are inherently applying the condition "end(ed/s) up as a shadowrunner". Unfortunately there are no numbers for those, you'd have to extrapolate from unconditional with a bias towards survivability and incentive to run.

Random characters really can work. I have done it. It may not be for everyone. It's about being willing to give up a little control (which most people are not willing to do whether they build DS approved monsters or characters closer to the book archetypes or completely ineffective builds with 100 different skills all at 1) and see the random character that was created as a story your stepping into rather than one you created. It requires trusting the players that they can come up with a life for that character and accept that most real functioning people don't actually fit a nice logical set of numbers.

It could just be that I mostly play with improvisers and theater people. They're willing to accept that they can work with randomness or characters they didn't create and still portray them in a way that is fun and establish relationships. In some ways its actually easier, because if you don't know everything about your character to start with, the group can collectively discover things about the characters that makes the team more cohesive.

I probably fall into the category that your wife falls into. I like having a good thematic hook, and I like plumbing it to its very depths.

And Point Taken, Lantzer. Everyone derives fun slightly differently. However, I will not tolerate someone deriving fun at the expense of my own. Nor will I pursue my fun at someone else's expense. And that all returns to Trust. If you cannot trust your fellow gamers at the table (or your GM), then the game is doomed right from the start.

I grant that this is not for those who want to optimize their characters. Or even be dumpshock marginal. It would, like most chargen systems, only work with people who wanted to play that system. I imagine you would have to recruit people eyes open.

And, yes, it does eliminate custom concepting. I think we can say without reservation that random generation of any sort means that if you had in mind a an elven quadriplegic social mage, or really wanted to recreate Max Payne, random is not the system for you. But if your character concepts seem to inevitably produce task-optimized characters with a back story that conveniently justifies it, maybe its worth a thought.

As Thorya mentioned quite nicely, however, it is possible to find a character concept without building it from scratch. The trick is you have to look at the being you were handed, and find a concept for their imperfection. And, mayhaps not having AGI 9 or Magic 6 because it was never available will be the ticket a few people need to actually tip them into a richer experience. For others it won't be.

Now, the part of your argument I value the most is the conditional probabilities bit. Because that is where I hit a recurring paradox. Because every condition I apply that makes a runner more suitable for being a typical chargen runner, makes them substantially more marketable to things not running, lowering the odds of it happening in the first place. Take your average mage or adept - even the street meat is valuable enough, per RAW, to be offered a cushy job. People search for them, harvest them, entice them into their organizations.

I suppose you could get around that loop by saying "but they are a runner, so there." Which bring us back to what is a canonically accurate runner to aim for in that case? I would tend to think they are an average to slightly above average guy, because if they were truly, truly exceptional, the odds are they are off the market..for every natural FastJack there's a thousand guys who sold out for a steady paycheck and the trappings of authority when the corps said 'stick with us, son, its worth a lot of money, a lot of recognition, and you have the full moral and resource backing of the system. Guys who have the skills and the will beyond what your average criminality can provide - because otherwise why not hire a go-gang or the Vory? And who use their heads and their legs a ton, because in their line of work they CAN'T just dicepool their way out. Good enough to overcome a challenge, but not good enough to mess up and shrug about plan B.

So, under that description, maybe we would have the old 3.5 centered attribute curve, a generous skill pack, and a touch of resourcing for the 98% that didn't end up magical.

Re: Glyph. No, actually I have fun as a player and occasional assistant GM right now in a ganger game - where I throw more dice than the canonically accurate rating 4 NPCs. As do the other PCs. And there is magic out the ass. And it is still fun and enjoyable. Its not a wild vengeful player/system/group smash. It really is a way to produce canonically accurate characters with imperfections and a more normalized distribution of statistics.

I suspect that, now that the initial math is done, I could skew the odds up and down the spectrum from 'retarded and physically deformed middle schoolers" to "these guys don't post on jackpoint because jackpoint is where the wannabes hang out." Likewise skills.

Which is the next step.

In what line of work can't you just dicepool your way out? If you have to use your head and legs a lot, then you are in some way, shape or form, using some manner of dicepool without which you CAN'T use your head or legs. Using your legs a lot? Let's see if your character has the capacity to keep it up. Using your head a lot? Let's see if your character is smart enough to figure it out.

I am also uncertain what you mean by "good enough to overcome a challenge, but not good enough to mess up and shrug about plan B."

In Random systems the idea is to make the stats look at them and come up with an idea for a character/background that would fit those stats and not build a characters background/character and then build the stats to fit that character.

So lets say I'm playing good ole 2e D&D and I roll

Str 18
Dex 9
Con 12
Inw 12
Wis 14
Chr 7

You decide to go with fighter roll % dice and end up with a 18/79 strength, you go human and think to yourself what made this guy be those stats. Bright arogant jock?, maybe he was a city boy and was picked on as being a scrawny nerd as a child and he started working out and practicing with weapons to escape the torment and some degree of self loathing, because he believed the taunts were true.

It is interesting and fun to see the skeleton(stats) and then add the meat(background/personality) to it making a full character.

I built a character in Traveller once. Spent about three years as a scientist, had (relatively) high charisma and said, "I'm going to try and become a noble."

Took three more years, but I succeeded!

GM was all like, "So basically as a scientist, you started DNA-matching yourself against various noble houses. 'Is this one a match? No. Is this one a match? No.' until you were finally successful. Congratulations, your experience as a drifter has turned you into a fine Dilettante."

(It was the only 'noble' profession I had good odds at keeping!)

What you describe, though, is not Random. You have Choice. Now, take those rolls, and then see yourself saddled with a Social Character with no combat skills becasue of the random roll. So, now you are an Expert (prostitute) with no physical skills, some random feats that will never come into play, and a smattering of knowledge skills; and no actual way to make a living in a DnD world, since you are at negatives to your core skill list, and couldn't survive combat in even the weakest encounter. How long do you think the character will actually last, in even the most mundane of worlds? You may have a high Strength, but your a liability in almost every way.

In your example, you played to your Strengths (no Pun Intended) and became a fighter. And then your decisions will inform the character from there.

So... your example is not Random in any way, shape or form, with the exception of some MINOR stat rolls. However, there is still a ton of choices that are made by the player, and not by random chance. And that makes all the difference. Random chance does not a good character make.

Real People (in the world-view sense) are not a compilation of Random Chance. They are the result of informed decision making.

I don't know, I do have to admit my looking this Good is mostly down to Random chance because if you saw the rest of the family, you would not be able to see where it came from.

Though I suppose you can argue that regular bathing and good grooming habits, which do count toward it, do count as informed decision making, but I still had a good base to work with.

I'm not convinced of that. In my experience the exceptionally gifted frequently have problems with accepting authority or fitting into rigid systems - especially those tailored towards mediocre people.

That's problematic in our world, a frequent solution is freelance work or funding of smaller independent companies. In a world dominated by pretty ruthless megacorps I could see that becoming more than just problematic.

Indeed... I think it would be far more exaggerated an issue than in the real world, actually.

The only choice if you wold call it that I was picking a class. If I rolled class randomly and got mage the methodology would be the same. I'd design a personality and background about what made this 18 strength slightly bright guy go into magic and become a mage. You are basically saying if someone handed you a non-optimized pre-gen without any background or personality you can't design those things to make a complete character because those have to come first. I think that is bunk, it can be fun to have a random character and then come up with the whys that "randomness" isn't so random after all when making a background and personality.

I am curious... Why do you assume that I play Optimized characters, Shinobi Killfist? I don't.
What I do play are Concept Characters. Random does not play well with Concept.

Yes, you can try to backstory a random character, but I have found that such characters tend to make little sense if they are truly random (Hint: Most game systems are not truly random either, despite what people would have you believe; they have internal logic that creates something that makes sense). Your example of the DnD character above is not random. You choose the Class, which will inform your skills, feats and other choices (which you pick as a player). A truly random character, though, often makes no sense (those skills you ended up with do not match your Occupation/Class, and the feats (using DnD as the base example here) would likely come out of left field). So, again, make something of that. It is often imposssible to reconcile true randomization with any type of concept. And I do not enjoy trying. I prefer Concept first. I can live with some randomization (DnD is classic for that with Stats), but true randomization just does not work for me.

Now, being handed a character at a convention and developing a quick backstory and whatnot to match what you are given is not difficult or even onerous (and I am pretty good with that). And in fact, as you indicated, it can be interesting, entertaining, and even rewarding. BUT THOSE CHARACTERS ARE NOT RANDOM CREATIONS EITHER. The characters generally make sense, and you can generally see where the character's creator was heading with the design concept.

Make any sense?

I personally can play any character you put before me. The question is, will I like the character. I have a tendency to give every character I make in every game I play a portion of my personality when I build them. This makes that character much more personalized to me since it is an extension of me in a way. You put a random character in front of me & I can create a backstory for them & play them, I just may not care if he dies, because I likely don;t have the same connection to him.

I have a tendency, when roleplaying my characters, to completely shift my frame of mind to these characters, I no longer think in "What would they do" no I think, "What would I do" & it makes playing the character much more fun for me.

Indeed... I do that as well...
Which is often a bit disturbing, as I discover something about myself (that I never considered or consciously knew) through roleplaying.

Yep, it does bring out the more fun side.

Even used to do this during regular miniature battles, had the various units have running commentary, cursing, screaming (softly at the table) as the dice were rolled and situation changed. Had one unit routed and had the commander unit try to rally them and return to ranks, which failed so two other unit called them out as cowards and shot the deserters down. (yes, could have tried rallying again in the next turn, but this was more in keeping with the theme of the army being played. Even earned a bonus vs routing for that one seeing as the remaining troops saw that they MIGHT die facing the enemy, but the WILL die if they tried running after that. )

Optimized might have been the wrong term, built for a purpose maybe. And I basically disagree you can have a totally random character and find a hook that makes those random pieces click. Right now I am getting into a dark heresy playtest. I don't know a damn thing about it, I saw the background options, birth options, class options, stat ranges and rolled them all randomly. I read up on what I rolled and designed a background and personality around it. Does everything click in some organized fashion of built for purpose character building, not in the slightest. But most people in reality don't either, some things click along in a predictable path but other things don't. You can find a pattern in any random character and make a background/personalty that makes it a complete and fun character.

Dark Heresy...read the wiki on the universe at the very least, if your GM is versed on what happens in the universe in general you'll NEED that info to survive, the 40k universe is exceptionally fluff filled having had lots of time to accumulate information, I once made a character & had to study up on the Space Marines to find a faction that I liked that could fall into Chaos without actually falling into Chaos as a whole (I settled on a Space wolf of the 13th regiment)

Hmmmmm... Apparently Dark Heresy is not what I was thinking it was...

Once again, it comes back to, you don't like to play this way or you cannot play such a character, so it must not be possible? It is fine if you don't like to play this way. Just like it's fine in this and every other thread that you don't play an optimized character. But saying that it will not work or it's wrong because you don't or can't play this way is asinine.

I have done random stats, race, and class (possibly even random spells, though this was several years ago, so I cannot remember) as well as random stats and powers in MM and was able to make concepts fit those characters. I would present you with more evidence, but I don't think you would listen to even more anecdotal cases where random play has worked.

Is it possible that you get some unlikely or nonsensical characters? Yes, which seems to be what the OP was trying to avoid by asking for input (rather than people telling him that he was wrong for even trying). You can get stupid impossible characters with point buy just as easily. In fact, I argue that most of the builds you dislike on Dumpshock would fit into that category, but you don't tell people that point buy does not play well with concepts.

Did you choose your skills randomly too? If not, then it is not truly random. Origin, background options, religion, and other "background" information are not worth worrying about. You can change all of that without drastically changing your core character at all. It does not really matter (specifics may change but the character will not) if you come from the Dales or Thay when you play a fighter in the Forgotten Realms. Or whom you choose to worship, or where you live, or even what languages you speak. That is all generally fluff (and yes, the fluff matters as far as the Personality/background is concerned, but has absolutley nothing to do with the mechanics of the build at all). What matters is that you are a Fighter or a Sorceror, or what have you.

Yes, I agree that I build to a Concept (even purpose built is not quite accurate, since I tend to not make decisions on what would be the mechanically superior choice, but on what would be the conceptually sound choice, even if it is mechanically inferior (which is usually is)). But, my concepts very rarely tend towards the Hyperspecialist/HyperElite. I like Generalists over specialists (even if I do tend to pick a primary area to concentrate a bit in...

Now, When I saw Dark Heresy, I envisioned something other than Warhammer 40K, so I cannot speak with any sense of authority or experience in that system, but it cannot be that much different from other roleplaying systems (assuming it is an RPG and not a Miniatures game).