Dumpshock Forums > Character that one-shot kills, every time

Chrome Head

Sep 10 2013, 09:20 PM

I tried to build a full character with the single purpose of min-maxing his DP with a sniper rifle. Of course, it's an elf bioadept! Sorry if something similar has already been posted, but I thought some people might be interested to see what a full char sheet could look like.

The DP itself: 7 skill + 2 spec, +1 ref. rec. + 2 smartlink + 7 agi + 2 muscle toner + 2 improved phys. att. + 5 improved ability = 28

This often reaches the accuracy limit on the gun, which is of 10 (7 + 2 smartlink + 1 enhanced accuracy), providing 25P of damage and -5 AP with high explosive rounds. You can also roll the 3 dice of Edge to ignore the limit altogether and apply a rule of six on 31 dice, which provides an average of roughly 13 successes, for 27P and -5 AP. All this from one bullet at long range.

This is obviously a highly specialized build made for demonstration, although it is arguably playable, this is some wiggle room with the attributes, skills, and adept powers.

[ Spoiler ]

Let me know if you think I made a mistake somewhere, and of course if you have comments

Large Edit: Corrected the errors about the limit on adept powers and the damage values. Also removed initiation to avoid controversy on that topic (it would increase the dp only by 1 at this point).

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Sep 10 2013, 09:25 PM

Ummm... You can only have as many levels of an Adept power as you have magic rating. So, no, no 11 levels of ability.

Also...
Ares Desert Strike STARTS at 14p damage -5 AP with Explosive Ammunition, rising to 24/25p with 10/11 Hits (Limit) and 28p with Uncapped Limits. So your damage calculations are off.

kerbarian

Sep 10 2013, 09:29 PM

I believe you'd be limited to 4 levels of Improved Ability for that character, not 11. i.e. that when they say "The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)" they're referring to the maximum result, not the maximum augmentation.

However, even if that's not the case the adept would be limited to 6 levels of Improved Ability. From p.308: "The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less."

27-29 is still a pretty huge dice pool, though, often hitting the accuracy limit of 10.

Lobo0705

Sep 10 2013, 09:32 PM

What the above two posters said - and in addition there is lots of debate as to whether or not you can Initiate in char gen - and I'll second kerbarian's note that the way that should be read is that you can get 4 extra dice, not 11 extra dice. I will, however, grant you that it is written terribly.

Chrome Head

Sep 10 2013, 09:45 PM

I made several edits to take into account your observations (thank you!).

It's still a pretty damn big edgeless dice pool at 28, with a limit of 10 and no funny business!

Do you limit the DP of your players? What would you say to a player that shows up for a game with this character?

Dolanar

Sep 10 2013, 09:51 PM

I imagine the improved ability is not meant to be 11, I imagine it is meant to be the same as it was in 4e which would limit the Total pool benefit to 150% of the skill's maximum. but here are a few things.

-Why did you limit the Skill to 7? obviously this is 5e ( you mention the Limits) so why not a 13 skill for a maximized Dicepool? Or is this meant to be right out of Character Creation?

-I would argue that Muscle Toner would not be able to be used along side the Adept Power as they are both Augmentations, one is simply a Magical Augmentation to Agi.

-Assuming I am correct about the limit to the Improved Ability Adept Power (its what reasonably makes sense here) that limits your IA to +4

your logical total becomes 7skill+1RR+2 Wireless Smartlink +9agi +4 Improved ability= 22 dice which is about Average for a well trained Powerful Sniper. using the Ares Desrt Strike with a 10Acc 13p -8AP, (for killing in one shot, I'd rather use the APDS ammo to ensure their armor is completely meaningless. assuming we buy hits, that adds an extra +5 damage (1 hit for every 4 dice)meaning 10acc 18p with -8AP

grid.samurai

Sep 10 2013, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 10 2013, 02:45 PM)

I made several edits to take into account your observations (thank you!).

It's still a pretty damn big edgeless dice pool at 28, with a limit of 10 and no funny business!

Do you limit the DP of your players? What would you say to a player that shows up for a game with this character?

I would allow it. There are plenty of ways to mess with snipers. This character would be weak against magical attacks to start. And without Masking, would be easy to spot by any mage worth his salt. Not to mention drones that could cause some nasty surveillance. From a story perspective, a sniper going around shooting explosive ammo at everyone would definitely have the shadows on edge. I'd like to think there would be some heightened KE activity looking for this guy. In any event, I wouldn't disallow something that was legitimately made using the rules.

Lobo0705

Sep 10 2013, 09:57 PM

He was doing it straight out of char gen, hence the skill limit of 7.

The Muscle Toner and Imp Agility are compatible, just as long as they don't add up to 4 more than his natural Agility (which in this case, they do not).

Lobo0705

Sep 10 2013, 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 10 2013, 05:45 PM)

Do you limit the DP of your players? What would you say to a player that shows up for a game with this character?

It all depends on the rest of the group.

If the rest of the group has dice pools in the 12-18 range, and you show up with a pool in the high 20's, and it is going to disrupt the game, I'll ask you to tone it down - make your character less of a one trick pony.

If EVERYONE is like that, then go ahead - you will fit right in.

Dolanar

Sep 10 2013, 10:17 PM

incidentally, just because he has a 20+ DP doesn;t mean he's a one trick Pony, I have made a character very similar to this (its my only really well developed character) who is the primary stealth & B&E character of the party he was in. those a a few more tricks he has.

wepv

Sep 10 2013, 10:19 PM

why build an elf for just 1 extra die? wouldn't human be better? You would have 5 edge(without spending karma) and if you can find 5 more karma you can still get to six, or if you cant you can spend that 25 karma on something else.

Chrome Head

Sep 10 2013, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (wepv @ Sep 10 2013, 05:19 PM)

why build an elf for just 1 extra die? wouldn't human be better? You would have 5 edge(without spending karma) and if you can find 5 more karma you can still get to six, or if you cant you can spend that 25 karma on something else.

Well I thought about it mostly in terms of getting the highest natural dice pool for the action. I agree that more edge is better, especially in this build which has Attributes at priority A (hence we can easily do without +2 charisma as well). My post is meant as an exploration, there are several variations that can be done.

More importantly, you can "sacrifice" a few dice of the 28 to make the character a lot more well-rounded. Get rid of exceptional attribute for 14 extra karma, for instance, and consider getting 2 adept powers back and drop to 9 agility, which should be sufficient. Another option is to get rid of the muscle toners (and/or all 'wares for that matter) and give resources priority D, in order to either get edge for an elf, or much higher skills for a priority E human. That last option is probably what I would go for if I were to play this type of character. The extra skills can flesh him out a good bit more, and take advantage of the high stats.

Like I said, consider that there is wiggle room to adjust to whatever concept you have, but this build shows how to get to near-30 dice without edge.

Dolanar

Sep 10 2013, 10:49 PM

I could show you my Elven Adept Sniper, he has a good chunk of skills & such & is pretty well rounded for what he is, also...the higher the DP the more likely you are that you can do better Called Shots to increase DV or eliminate Armor.

Shemhazai

Sep 10 2013, 11:45 PM

Can that character have Improved Ability (Longarms) at 5? It's not Improved Ability (Longarms (Sniper Rifle)). The wording is "maximum improvement possible" and not "maximum rating" so there could be room for interpretation.

Dolanar

Sep 11 2013, 12:11 AM

its reasonable to think that its not suddenly some extremely powerful ability. Also considering the poor writing of the book, its reasonable to assume that this is yet another possible poorly written ability.

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 12:20 AM

The called shot thing goes without saying, yes.

I'm very interested to see your sniper elf, you can copy-paste it to this threat (in spoiler tags) if you want.

Lobo0705

Sep 11 2013, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Sep 10 2013, 06:45 PM)

Can that character have Improved Ability (Longarms) at 5? It's not Improved Ability (Longarms (Sniper Rifle)). The wording is "maximum improvement possible" and not "maximum rating" so there could be room for interpretation.

He can not have it at 5, only 4, here is what it says:

"This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this
power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum
improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5
(rounded up)."

So the OP's original interpretation was that you could have the ability itself rating of skill x1.5 (round up), and so gave himself a rating 11 ability.

It was pointed out that you cannot have a rating of your ability higher than your Magic Attribute, so he reduced it to 5 (which is his Magic Attribute)

However, it has to be reduced to 4. His skill is 7, and his ability can raise the rating of that skill to 1.5 times its current level. He cannot have the ability of a rating equal to 1.5 times his current skill level, he can improve the skill's rating by 1.5 times its current level. Thus, 7 times 1.5 (round up) is 11 - so the maximum he can have the Improve Ability for Longarms is 4, not 5

So your real total is 27 dice - and, not to be pedantic, but you said "at long range" but with the Image Mag you have, it only reduces the range by one category - so at long range you would take another -1 die modifier, and so only roll 26 dice.

It is still a helluva lot of dice

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 12:59 AM

Good catch on the range. The smartgun system could be equipped with a better zooming device and solve that issue.

I think that your interpretation of RAW is incorrect. The key sentence is:

"The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)."

It does not talk about the maximum improved skill rating, but directly about the improvement itself. This might be unintentional from the writers, but I hope you will agree that as written, the rules tell us that the maximum improvement in this case is 11, limited also, however, by the magic rating.

Dolanar

Sep 11 2013, 01:10 AM

which again, could just be a matter of the poor writing

Lobo0705

Sep 11 2013, 01:11 AM

"The smartgun system could be equipped with a better zooming device and solve that issue."

Um - is this some hypothetical or are you actually referencing something in the rules I haven't seen?

I disagree with your interpretation of the rules, but that is because whoever wrote/proofread these rules should be rounded up and flogged, given how vague and inconsistent they are.

Here is the ability in 4e:

"This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill
by 1 per level. A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its
base rating x 1.5. Improved ability must be purchased for a
specific skill, not a skill group."

Reads almost the same, except it is actually freaking clear.

If it was supposed to work the same as in 4e, it should have been written that way.

If it was supposed to work the way you describe it, it should have been written:

"This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this
power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum
rating of this power possible is your current skill level x 1.5
(rounded up)."

Either way is clear.

The way it is written, it isn't.

However, for me, unless I see an errata, I will assume it works the same as in 4e.

Voran

Sep 11 2013, 01:24 AM

I kinda think this demonstrates how the game breaks down when you take it to unreasonable levels. Consider that basically this means you'd need two of these snipers to brainshot most of the 5th edition dragons. Not an army, basically two guys, with better rifles. You make that a small squad and you should whittle down a great in under a round, if everyone fires.

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 01:25 AM

Correction: you don't like what it says. And starting with a quote from 4e doesn't really help determine what 5e RAW is.

But what it actually says is clear: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. This is what is written and there's really only one way that these words can be interpreted. An improvement is by definition not the base thing plus the improvement... it's just the improvement. There is no ambiguity.

Now you suggest other ways to write it... ok. You also suggest what should be written. That's nice. But it really doesn't change what it says.

I agree that this might not have been what is intended. But RAW means rules as written. And what is written is clear. You're just disappointed that it is written, and disagree that it should have been written that way. That's all. Don't pretend RAW is different though.

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 01:29 AM

QUOTE (Voran @ Sep 10 2013, 08:24 PM)

I kinda think this demonstrates how the game breaks down when you take it to unreasonable levels. Consider that basically this means you'd need two of these snipers to brainshot most of the 5th edition dragons. Not an army, basically two guys, with better rifles. You make that a small squad and you should whittle down a great in under a round, if everyone fires.

Interesting. A western dragon would still have 16 defense dice if it sees it coming, -1 per additional attack dodged. Then a solid 44 dice to roll for damage resistance. All in all 60 dice. Put in some edge and he's barely scratched on the first shot fired.

Wait, what did I just say? He's scratched? A starting character can scratch a dragon???

grid.samurai

Sep 11 2013, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 10 2013, 06:25 PM)

But what it actually says is clear: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. This is what is written and there's really only one way that these words can be interpreted. An improvement is by definition not the base thing plus the improvement... it's just the improvement. There is no ambiguity.

This is 100%. I too agree that it is written poorly and I don't believe it should work in the way that it is written, BUT the words equate to exactly this: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. An improvement is the difference of the total NOT including the base value. Legal Word Lawyer checking out.

Dolanar

Sep 11 2013, 01:53 AM

despite what it should be vs what it says, putting that aside for the moment here is my character

Shade

[ Spoiler ]

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Sep 11 2013, 02:33 AM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 10 2013, 07:25 PM)

Correction: you don't like what it says. And starting with a quote from 4e doesn't really help determine what 5e RAW is.

But what it actually says is clear: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. This is what is written and there's really only one way that these words can be interpreted. An improvement is by definition not the base thing plus the improvement... it's just the improvement. There is no ambiguity.

There is not only one way that this may be read, as evidenced by the responses you are receiving.
Read it again... I will provide it:

QUOTE (Improved Ability Skill, SR5, Page 309)

This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum improvement [of the skill] possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up).

It is QUITE clear that the ability improves a skill. It improves it by its level. And the Maximum Improvement Possible is Current Skill x1.5. It augments the skill, and the Maximum Augmented skill rating is 1.5x Current level of the skill. So, If my Skill is 4, it may only be improved to Skill Rank of 6. If my Skill is 6, it may only be improved to a rank of 9.

Jack VII

Sep 11 2013, 02:50 AM

I read it that way too. The final sentence uses the term improvement. That seems to be referring to the first sentence where it describes the improvement being "increas[ing] the Rating of a specific Combat... Skill." Using word substitution, the final sentence could easily be read as "The maximum [increased Rating of a Specific Combat... Skill] possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)."

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 02:51 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 10 2013, 09:33 PM)

It is QUITE clear that the ability improves a skill. It improves it by its level. And the Maximum Improvement Possible is Current Skill x1.5.

Yes. Precisely.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 10 2013, 09:33 PM)

It augments the skill, and the Maximum Augmented skill rating is 1.5x Current level of the skill. So, If my Skill is 4, it may only be improved to Skill Rank of 6. If my Skill is 6, it may only be improved to a rank of 9.

What? You just changed what it says.

All right time to whip out (thefreedictionary.com):
im·prove·ment
n. 1. a. The act or process of improving.
b. The state of being improved.
2. A change or addition that improves.

I believe the one we want is definition number 2: a change or addition that improves. Let's repeat the sentence and putting in the definition:
The maximum (change or addtion that improves) is 1.5x skill level.

This is not MY interpretation. It is simply what's written! I fail to understand what is so complicated.

I'll repeat it one more time: you just don't like what you're reading. It is NOT ambiguous.

Edit: ninja'd, see the guy above me.

Cain

Sep 11 2013, 05:14 AM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 10 2013, 06:51 PM)

What? You just changed what it says.

All right time to whip out (thefreedictionary.com):
im·prove·ment
n. 1. a. The act or process of improving.
b. The state of being improved.
2. A change or addition that improves.

I believe the one we want is definition number 2: a change or addition that improves. Let's repeat the sentence and putting in the definition:
The maximum (change or addtion that improves) is 1.5x skill level.

This is not MY interpretation. It is simply what's written! I fail to understand what is so complicated.

I'll repeat it one more time: you just don't like what you're reading. It is NOT ambiguous.

Playing word games doesn't make your argument any more valid. Basically, you're trying to find a twisted definition that allows you to get 11 dice. TJ is correct on this one: the maximum improvement is the maximum level that the skill can be raised to.

QUOTE

Edit: ninja'd, see the guy above me.

You keep using that word, Improvement. I do not think it means what you think it does.

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 05:19 AM

I'm getting frustrated with people not even reading.

Where do you see me arguing for 11 dice? Where? I made the mistake, and corrected it. Never mentioned it again.

You're also accusing me of playing word games? We're talking about written rules. And reading them. The word improvement does not mean: the thing being improved + the amount by which it is improved. It means: the amount by which it is improved. There's a base, and there's the improvement. That's what the word means. I was getting annoyed with people inventing meanings for that word, so I quoted the dictionary. And I'm twisting things!?

Please tell me what improvement means to you, because to everyone else it means what it means. You're all just making things up because you're unhappy with the RAW. Hell, I'm unhappy with it. I'm just talking about what's written. While you all seem to be talking about what should be written.

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 05:33 AM

QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 10 2013, 08:53 PM)

despite what it should be vs what it says, putting that aside for the moment here is my character

Shade

Hey nice build. Sorry I missed this with all the commotion about the word improvement.

It's an interesting use of special attributes with priority A Elf(

. I don't like having 1 strength (or 1 any stat) usually, but the physical limit is still quite decent anyway at 5. It's just hard for me to imagine such a an all around physical powerhouse having such an abysmal strength, but it's much more a matter of taste than number crunching, imo. He's got a decent balance, even though you'll agree he's mostly a one-trick poney, as per the original post (didn't count his DP either). At least, there's a variety of useful skills that will profit from excellent attributes and decent access to edge at the key moment. Thanks for sharing.

Dolanar

Sep 11 2013, 05:44 AM

Elves are not known for their strength & the training he endured in his backstory didn't include a lot of strength training, he is still effective if forced into melee, by utilizing a weapon geared towards his weakness by using his Stun Baton. He is all about the stealth & being sneaky, silenced Sniper Rifle, he hits about 18+ dice (before even touching initiations or getting Karma) he is the quintessential Sniper Assassin.

DMiller

Sep 11 2013, 06:28 AM

I’m afraid that I agree with Chrome Head's reading of the rule as written. The way it is written within the English language, he is absolutely correct. However I do not believe that was the intent of the rule.

As written a skill of 6 could have up to 9 points added to it using the adept power for a total of 15 augmented skill value.

We will go with RAI as best as we can interpret them, RAW in this case is clearly broken and should be mentioned in the errata thread (if it isn't already).

*Edit: Has anyone checked the German version of the book to see if it is more clear?

Medicineman

Sep 11 2013, 06:28 AM

@Dolanars Shade Char

QUOTE

A: Race Elf 8
B: Attributes 20

Why didn't You switch Prio A to Attributes and B Elf (6)
You'd gain 4 Attribute Points and You'd loose two Edge
(AGI 7,WIL 5,STR 3 f.E..... or CHA 5 and later, with enough Karma ,get some "Face "Skills)

with a switching Dance
Medicineman

toturi

Sep 11 2013, 07:27 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 11 2013, 01:14 PM)

Playing word games doesn't make your argument any more valid. Basically, you're trying to find a twisted definition that allows you to get 11 dice. TJ is correct on this one: the maximum improvement is the maximum level that the skill can be raised to.

You keep using that word, Improvement. I do not think it means what you think it does.

Actually TJ has stated the commonly accepted intepretation of that rule.

Chrome Head has stated the coldly literal correct reading of that rule. Most people keep refering to that line but I do not think it means what they(and you) think it does. So according to the RAW, Chrome Head is correct.

This is the RAW. And you guys know how I can get about the RAW. House rule if you want, Bull can issue a hot fix for it if he wants for SRM, but acknowledge it as the RAW as it stands.

Chrome Head

Sep 11 2013, 11:03 AM

Finally some common sense.

I never said it was good RAW. But the English language is clear on this one.

Shemhazai

Sep 11 2013, 11:04 AM

Yes, of course it says that the improvement is 1.5 x the skill rating (rounded up), so a skill at rating 7 allows up to 11 points of improvement for a total of 18. A rating 13 skill would give you up to 33 dice plus everything else. Whatever.

But what if we assume the final value can only be 1.5 x rating (rounded up)? Would you be able to even acquire the power at 5 points if you only have a rating 7 skill knowing that you could only apply 4 points of it toward improving your skill rating? So you would purchase 5 points while only being able to use 4 points. Then, when you use your specialization, you could apply that last point to your dice pool.

(And if you want to go by the first way, the max would be 13(skill) + 2(specialization) = 15 + ( 15 + 8 ) = 38 dice plus all the other stuff. Would that be legal if you assume you can do what I just described?)

Edit: And 7 skill +2 specialization would give you 23 dice for just the skill.

Dolanar

Sep 11 2013, 12:00 PM

Actually in reference to my character, I was making this version as close to my 4e character as possible, could I have made him differently? sure! but then he would not be the same character I was playing in 4e, this was more or less a thought experiment to make my old character to experiment with the system to understand how it worked. besides, this particular character would not have much in the way of Face skills, he hates dealing with people more than he has to.

Jack VII

Sep 11 2013, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 10 2013, 09:51 PM)

I'll repeat it one more time: you just don't like what you're reading. It is NOT ambiguous.

Edit: ninja'd, see the guy above me.

LOL, it must be a little ambiguous as my interpretation was supporting the alternate viewpoint. When I stated that word substitution could be used to interpret the final sentence as: "The maximum [increased Rating of a Specific Combat... Skill] possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)," my interpretation of "increased Rating" was the sum of the original skill and additional levels added on from the power since there is only ever one skill Rating. Will wait for errata/rules clarification.

DrZaius

Sep 11 2013, 01:39 PM

QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 11 2013, 06:03 AM)

Finally some common sense.

I don't believe toturi has ever been accused of that before.

toturi

Sep 11 2013, 03:23 PM

QUOTE (DrZaius @ Sep 11 2013, 09:39 PM)

I don't believe toturi has ever been accused of that before.

Yes, I think this is the first time someone has accused me of showing any common sense.