I've been reading the Matrix section a lot lately. And I've been reading up on Technomancers, and how badly they've been nerfed. So first I made a Technomancer for fun. Then I wondered, what would he be like as a Decker? So I redid the character as a Decker. So, I thought I'd play around with an encounter between the two. Just a thought exercise, really. Neither character is optimized but I think either one would be fun to play.

Jared Smith, Decker:

Timothy Smith, Technomancer:

So we'll start with Timothy, our Technomancer, being hired for a data snatch from a bank host. His fixer buddy has found out that Mr. Johnson has covered his bets by double-booking the job with Jared the Decker. So Timothy is looking to shut Jared down so he doesn't get in the way. Jared has also been tipped off, and is looking to do the same thing himself.

Tim sets himself up in a quiet room near the bank with a buddy to guard his meat suit while he's in VR. He slips into Silent Running mode immediately.

Jared, meanwhile, is also in the area. He's running his Deck with Sleaze 7, Firewall 6, Attack 4 & Data Processing 5. On the deck are Encryption, Toolbox, Baby Monitor and Armor. Jared is also Running Silent.

So we'll go to Initiative to figure out who can do what first. Tim has Intuition 5 + Data Processing 5 for 10 + 4d6. Jared has Intuition 5 + Data Processing 5 (6 for Toolbox) for 11 + 4d6. Tim gets 6 5 4 3 for Initiative of 28. Jared gets 3 6 4 3 for Initiative of 27.

The first thing Tim does is improve his Grid. A moment's concentration threads Transcendent Grid at Level 5. Rolling Software 6 + Resonance 6 he gets 1 hit. Not great, but enough for this part of the job. He rolls Willpower 7 + Resonance 6 = 13 dice to resist 2DV of Fading. Seven hits... no problem.

Jared also decides that the public grid isn't going to cut it for this job. He rolls Hacking 6 + Logic 7 + Hot Sim 2 - Public Grid 2 -Running Silent 2 = 11 dice Hack on the Fly against 4 dice of the Local Grid. Jared gets 2 hits to the Local Grid's 0... he's on the Grid, and his Overwatch Score starts ticking. Baby Monitor reports a score of 0. Plenty of time...

Tim next decides to pull a Hack on the Fly himself. He has Hacking 5 + Logic 5 + Hot Sim 2 - Running Silent 2 = 10 dice against the Local Grid's 4. He gets 5 hits, the Grid gets 0. When Transcendent Grid shuts down he'll land on the Local Grid, not the Public. OS starts up for him as well, with 0.

Jared begins looking for Tim, figuring he must be around somewhere. A Matrix Perception Check (Logic 7 + Intuition 5 - 2 Running Silent = 10 dice = 4 successes.) More then enough to detect that yeah, there's a hidden icon out there.

On the next Initiative pass, Tim attempts to find some hidden icons. He rolls Computer 6 + Intuition 5 + Hot Sim 2 + Technomancer 2 - Running Silent 2 = 13 dice. Five hits.

Next step for Jared: Find the icon. His 10 dice for Matrix Perception is up against Logic 5 + Sleaze 5 = 10 dice for Tim. Four hits to two: Tim is spotted.

Initiative: Tim 24, Jared 20.

Up next, Tim tries to spot the hidden icon. 13 dice vs. Jared's Logic 7 + Sleaze 7 = 14 dice. Tim gets 5 Hits, but Jared gets 9. No luck for Tim.

Jared goes on the offensive. He swaps Attack and Sleaze (Attack 7, Sleaze 4) and goes for a Data Spike on Tim. Cybercombat 6 + Logic 7 + Codeslinger 2 + Hot Sim 2 - Running Silent 2 = 15 dice vs. Tim's Intuition 5 & Firewall 7 (12 dice.) At the first sign of trouble Tim activates Full Matrix Defense, throwing another 7 dice into the mix. Jared gets 5 hits, Tim rolls and also gets 5. Tim's not hurt, but no damage rebounds on Jared. Jared's OS goes up to 5 though.

On the next pass Jared is Iniative 10, Tim is Initiative 4. Jared swaps Toolbox for Hammer and again Data Spikes, for 3 hits. Tim resists for 8 hits. Not good for Jared... he takes 5 boxes of Matrix Damage, and his OS goes up to 13.

On 4 Tim does two things: A Simple Action to drop Running Silent, and a Simple Action to call his Fault Sprite. At the end of the Pass the Combat Turn ends.

Initiative: Tim 24, Jared 31, Fault Sprite Initiative 13 + 4d6 = 28

Jared is understandably a bit more cautious after having his own Data Spike messed him up. Still, he has no reason to believe that Tim has spotted him yet, so he has time. He decides to go for a Mark on Tim using Hack on the Fly. Hacking 6 + Logic 7 + Hot Sim 2 - Running Silent 2 = 13 dice against Tim's Willpower 7 + Firewall 7 = 14 dice. A tie @ 5 hits each. Jared fails, and his Overwatch Score goes up to 18. Plus, Tim now has a Mark on *him*.

The Fault Sprite has arrived, but has no orders. It Delays Action to 23.

Tim immediately does a Command Sprite "Sustain Electron Storm on the icon attacking me until it crashes or leaves." The Fault Sprite has Inituition 6 + Computer 6 + Hot Sim 2 = 14 dice for 3 hits. It knows there's a hidden icon there, and next pass will try to find it.

Jared knows he's Marked, and the appearance of the Sprite is troubling. He decides to take out the Resonance Beastie first, with Data Spike. 15 dice vs. Intution 6 + Firewall 8 = 14 dice. Six hits to 3... the Sprite is facing down Attack 7 + Hammer 2 + 3 net hits = 12DV of Matrix Damage. It rolls L6 + Firewall 8 = 14 dice for 5 hits. That's 7 boxes to the Sprites Matrix Condition Monitor. Jared's Baby Monitor is reporting his OS is now 21.

Tim decides to buy the Sprite some time. He Threads Resonance Veil, going for Level 5. Software 6 + Resonance 6 = 12 dice against Jared's Intuition 5 + Data Processing 5 = 10 dice. No luck... 2 hits to 3 and he's now facing 4DV of Fading.
Five hits on the Fading resistance test wave it away.

Next up, the Sprite tries to find Jared. 14 dice vs Logic 7 Sleaze 4 = 11 dice. Four hits to two... Jared's found. The Sprite also goes Full Matrix Defense,
dropping his Initiative to 3.

On the next pass, at 11, Jared still doesn't like that Sprite, and he doesn't know yet that Running Silent isn't doing him any good anymore. He lashes out with Data Spike to try to finish the job and gets five hits. This time though the Sprite is rolling 20 dice to resist and gets 7 hits. Jared takes two more boxes of unresisted Matrix Damage and his OS is now up at 28.

Tim decides to try a different tactic. He Threads Pulse Storm at L4 against Jared. 12 dice against 12 dice... still no luck. 3 hits to 4. His luck continues on Fading tests though.. five hits.

Next Combat Turn: Tim 31, Jared 25, Sprite 32.

As per orders, the Fault Sprite unleashes an Electron Storm on Jared. Cybercombat 6 + Resonance 6 = 12 dice vs. Intuition 5 + Firewall 6 (7 for Encryption) = 12 dice. Two hits to five hits, the Sprite will have to try again.

Tim tries again with Pulse Storm. Four Hits to three... Jared now has to deal with a Noise Score of 1. Fading test gives an unbelievable eight hits.

Jared still considers the Sprite to be the greater threat, and now he knows he's been spotted by both his opponents. He spends a Simple Action to get rid of Running Silent.

Next pass, the Sprite tries again on 22. Tied @ three hits.

Tim goes for Pulse Storm again. Three hits to four. Four hits on Fading.

Jared tries to take out the Sprite, now with 17 dice (he swaps out Baby Monitor for Signal Scrub to take out the Noise he got last pass.) The Sprite goes Full Matrix Defense. And it's game over for Jared as the test is 6 sux to 13, and he eats 7 points of Matrix Damage. He's bricked, and dumpshocked. Just as well, really, as it also put his OS up to 41.


So, what did I take away from running this through its paces?
1) I'm glad I could code up a quick little diceroller in perl.
2) Apparently Data Spike is a good way to get yourself bricked. I finally see some more merit in Resonance Spike: It doesn't bounce back on you.
3) Not sure a L6 sprite can really do much. A dicepool of 12 against a decent Intuition + Firewall ?
4) Still think the Technomancer would be fun to play. Too bad my usual gaming group would only be interested in Shadowrun if I ran it...

Neat, good to see an example of similar bases going at it.



Soooo... allergic to wood?


Must make for rough mornings.

What this really shows: The value of Full Matrix Defense.

It's a great counter to Brute Force, Crash Program, and Data Spike. At least two of those should be fairly common.

Full Matrix Defense is almost a must for survival I think. It still can get pretty close... at the end there, Jared was throwing around a 17 dice Data Spike, and that's without optimization. (For example, I didn't specialize him in Data Spike because I see real value in keeping the Skill Group together.)

One of the big advantages a Decker has is Cerebral Boosters. Almost every Matrix Action uses Logic. I sincerely dislike augmenting my Awakened characters, but I have to admit that Cerebral Boosters 3 might be worth sacrificing a point of Resonance.

Golden Age Green Lantern.
Man, I am such a geek.

Some questions/comments not as a critiqe, but as a peer's attempt to learn more about the process.

1. Shouldn't the Decker have Agents, especially, if he intends to go for another Decker? It basically gives you free attack actions.
2. It seems like a tactical mistake to me to go for the Sprite instead of concentrating on the thing that was there first. If it were an agent, from what I see, it does not matter who you attack, as they have identical stats and shared monitors, but a Sprite tends to be the lesser threat.
3. It took me a while to find the rules for rebound damage and marks on resisted Attack and Sleaze actions (p. 231), but this is really quite relevant (as so many side notes in this book). It makes it quite risky to attack devices attached to high Willpower individuals, as e.g. dwarf riggers, unless you feel confident to hack through Intuition + Firewall + Willpower, which can be as high as 20[unlimited] even for a fairly normal starting character or high-level autonomous devices, such as the 5k worth Transys Avalon, which defends with 18 dice[unlimited], unless I can talk the GM into using some poor person's attributes instead.
4. A good thing both can't do anything with marks on you, so you could use hacking, instead. Going against say 12[unlimited] defense, as full matrix defense only counts against Attack, not Sleaze. Cybercombat can be used to quickly get rid of low-tech devices, true, but the combination Hack on the fly, format device and reboot is slower, but less dangerous and you cannot be attacked during the time you stay hidden. I am conflicted about the optimal tactics here.
5. Although the rules do state: "This [the full matrix defense] allows you to defend against Attack actions, and may be taken at any time. ", I am not sure, if this holds for surprise attacks in which the target is not aware of your existence. The text for Full Defense clarifies that it may not be taken when surprised and does contain additional language for cases in which you are low on Initiative. Also, on Noticing Hackers (p. 236) is says that a successful Attack action against you is suspicous. As a GM, I might rule that you may take Full Matrix Defense pre-emptively, when you know there is something going on. Like the sprite did (without being ordered to) in your example, but then it has to be announced before the action and immediately subtracts from your Initiative. Still, this means you have to surprise attacks from hidden icons more bite. You would stay hidden as best you can and then run Data spikes on your opponents; soft-reboot when you get caught or erase mark, hide, rinse and repeat.

As a dice roller I recommend http://rolz.org/, it gives you a protocol and you can share it with your online friends (if you want). Xe5 is the correct code for SR5. X being the amount of dice you want to throw.

Anyway, thanks for the write-ups, I do believe the new Matrix rules are much better than the SR4 rules, but they are still quite abstract and though the rules are all there, trying to derive a feeling for good tactical approaches on common situations is a bit tricky. Unfortunately, the examples in the book don't exactly focus on how to hack efficiently. Instead they give us: Snagging music files first and then not even rebooting + I kind of have trouble guessing the rolls that must have gone down (e.g. how BK killled the Patrol IC in one attack on a decent host) and a Diffuse Attack on a spider which hurts the TM more than the spider.

I still have to come to grasp with how 5k commlinks are circumstantially better than 50k decks, e.g. on defense. How is may hurt our defense when you actually use your device (although that one is pretty realistic, thinking about the virusses my sons loves to download). How hacking re-introduced the SR3 parry rules, which made is quite dangerous to attack a superior opponent and thus made low skills on melee a serious waste of points. And what are good actions in a Hacker duel (or Hacker vs. Rigger or Hacker vs. Host for that matter).

It's funny how different some of these tests work out. I did a quick decker/TM fight using the book archs and the TM knocked himself out through fading.

You mean on Resonance Spike? The example TM has only 10 dice to resist, so he should stick to something close to L3/L4, which is basically playing it for time, as it is somewhat unlikely to do much damage against 10 dice defense. Hmm, the Decker is built on Hack on the Fly and Brute Force and should thus try to earn some marks and then Brute Force some damage. Or how did you play it?

I just noticed how weirdly built the archs are.
Skillwise, the TM is half face, half TM. Intuition of all things is his highest attribute, but he has no Perception skill. Electronic Warfare is the only maxed out skill.
The Decker is a dwarf, but has only Willpower 5, plus she has a rather bad cyberdeck. She does have some pilot skills, but no drones, vehicles or RCC.

It was actually a Data Spike v. Resonance Spike argument, so I only had them use each of those abilities. With that said, Full Matrix Defense could very well change the equation. My example was a counterpoint to another example where they didn't use defense or initiative, so I just built it accordingly. I'll probably put together another example with well built characters and see how it works out.

Full Matrix Defense can have a signficiant impact on how things progress. There are few ways to mitigate the dice pool differential. Codeslinger: Data Spike could help as could Cybercombat specializations against Personas (assuming that is you're building a persona killer). Honestly, the best idea for a hacker is to try to hack marks using Hack on the Fly, then blow them up in the final IP with a Data Spike, hoping they didn't preemptively use Full Matrix Defense earlier in the CT.

Double post. Thinking about it further, I guess skill could help make up for some of it over time. It's alot easier to get dice from improving skills than improving attributes and there are no skills that benefit Full Matrix Defense.

I originally started out with Jared using his Agent, but I eventually went another way. The information on Agents is a bit lacking. I was unsure on Initiative for the Agent, and I was also unsure if they got the +2 Hot Sim bonus. Also, as these are both chargen legal characters, Jared's Agent was a DR4. If you've found stuff in the book I missed regarding these questions, please pass it on. I'm considering doing a "100 karma later" follow-up to this.

I based this on my assessment of Technomancers and Deckers. Sprites are these bizarre things that come out of the Resonance, even stranger then Technomancers. And if the Sprite had managed to get Electron Storm running, it would have been extremely nasty for Jared. So yeah, maybe a tactical error, I don't know. It's what I think I would do were I playing Jared.
Yeah, Full Matrix Defense is nasty. I suppose it's going to come down to whether the GM runs you against guys who can afford the Sony Deck or better all the time or not.
Fair enough. When I made Jared, I made him an Attack specialist (hence the Codeslinger: Data Spike) but perhaps Sleaze would be the better way to go.

Unlike every other example of Full Defense, Matrix Full Defense doesn't mention that you can't use it when surprised. Maybe that's the wrong approach, I don't know. It's tough to reconcile Meat World Combat with Matrix Combat. I mean, maybe I should have gone with a Perception Check & Surprise test combo. But Matrix Perception is a Complex Action, so does that fit all that well? I don't know. So I ran with the fact that MFD doesn't have a Surprise clause.

As for the Sprite going Full Defense... well, it got hit for 7 boxes of Matrix Damage, and has Mental Attributes of 6. Sprites have some Autonomy; you don't have to use Command Sprite all the time to tell it to do every little thing.

I didn't want to have a web browser open. And besides, I like coding. It was a pretty simple little piece of code: srand to seed the RNG, print out the results, count the hits, count the 1s, if statements to test for Glitches & Critical Glitches... it was fun. I'll keep rolz.org in mind though, thanks.

Yeah, it's tricky. Really, really tricky. You have a good point about the examples not really showing good tactics. Doing this exercise got me thinking a lot about how things work. As I mentioned, I now have increased interest in Resonance Spike for a TM, as it doesn't cause backlash if it fails.

I think they went the way they did on commlinks so that non-Deckers would have a chance. But that's pure speculation.

I like my starting Complex Forms though. I think focusing on the weird things that TMs can do is the way to go. The trick is managing Fading. It's one reason I chose a Dwarf and maxed out the WP.

Heh. I freely admit that I got lucking on Fading rolls for Tim. Never took a single point of Fading damage despite Threading four Complex Forms.

True, but it can take a while to make up for it. One of my plans for the tentative "100karma later" follow-up I'm thinking of doing would be to improve Tim's Intuition to 6. Yes, 30 karma, but it's +1 Initiative (in all Modes), +1 Sleaze, and Intuition is used in a lot of Matrix Action Defenses. So that would give him 20 dice on Matrix Full Defense. You take a Dwarven Decker running a Fairlight Excalibur and he could have Firewall 9 + Encryption 1 + Intuition 6 + WP 7 = 23 dice. Starting off that same Dwarven Decker could have 21 dice into Data Spike, (assuming spending the on Cerebral Boosters 3) so that means taking your Cybercombat up from 6 to 8 to match it... and then from 8 to 11 to consistently beat it. (Starting: Cybercombat 6 + Logic 9 + Codeslinger: 2 + Specialization 2 + Hot Sim 2 = 21).

I must confess that all of this has increased my interest in buying the Firewall Echoes for Tim.

Edited to add: I just realized something. Resonance Spike is not an Attack action. So you can't use Matrix Full Defense against it. Ok then...

Yep, I think I mentioned that above somewhere. Basically, the only things FMD works against (that a persona would likely be concerned about) is Brute Force, Crash Program, and Data Spike (I guess Crack File and Erase Mark as well if you're the owner). Granted, Data Spike should be a pretty common occurrence in Matrix Combat unless you're fighting a lot of TMs.

In all honesty, coming from a position of hating Resonance Spike, it's actually a nice little trick. The biggest issue with it is that threading it a Level that is actually going to do some damage can be tough (without knocking yourself out). Sure, you can thread at L3 or L4, but one would presume that most opposition, even mook deckers, are going to have 8ish dice to resist, so it may be a long haul. There have been discussions in other places about whether Resonance Spikes are noticeable (given that they are neither Attack nor Sleaze actions). I haven't really come to any firm understanding necessarily on that topic, but that could be another boost to the TM if they can Resonance Spike stuff with relative impunity.

Maybe if Resonance Spike was opposed by just Firewall. And maybe if other (non-slaved) handheld devices (like your opponent's smartgun) didn't magically get to use the holder's Willpower attribute just by being held.

Ah, wishful thinking.

Also, this sorta just shows what happens when two roughly equal parties fight, and one of the parties adds a third. Two on One tends to end up the way it always does.

In a related fashion, using an agent or something that shares your condition track, seems to be a must if you're fighting only '1 foe'. Assuming you're using a decent agent with decent stats, it'll still end up taking less damage from attacks, while you and the agent can double team attacks on your foe. Though its a little glass cannon-like, the more damage the two of you take, the less potentially useful and more vulnerable the duo becomes. But right out of the gate, those first few 'rounds of combat' can be very useful to have that agent out.

I think one of the problems with Agents (particularly at CharGen limits) is that they DO share your condition monitor. If you're fighting someone with a high Firewall and Intuition, you're likely to brick yourself even faster if your opponent is preventing multiple Data Spike attacks, particularly since the unresisted return damage is based on the net hits of your opponent. I'd be terrified if I had multiple agents out all attacking one decker with a superior Firewall/Intuition/Willpower, LOL. More like Full Matrix Offense.

Which really means that the decker SHOULD have elected to match the full-turtle strategy.

The technomancer (with a slightly different CF selection) could also sit there turtling and spamming Tattletale on the decker, as it's not an opposed test and it's cheap to use. Let GOD do the heavy lifting for you.

Yeah, but that's not a likely choice of CF - as useful as it is in rare cases, it's mostly useless to the running TM. Great for security technomancers, but against a runner's targets it's not gonna do a damn thing (as the target has to have already started their OS). And it takes a lot of Threading's to get much of an increase to OS, and some of those rolls are gonna go against you.

With my luck, a DP of 18 would net two hits and I'd be passed out from fading. And that's assuming I'll play a technomancer in SR5.

an alternate perspective is that both were focusing on the wrong thing. neither of them had a primary objective of defeating their opponent. both of them had the goal of getting a job done first, and defeating their opponent is merely one way to possibly handle that. had either of them just ignored attacking the other and gone straight into the host and started hacking while the other was trying to KO them, especially with matrix full defence running, i'd say there's a very good chance they'd finish the job well before the other managed to fully brick them.

Tattletale is a simple (unopposed) test with very low Fading, so it's very unlikely to go against you. If they're racking up an OS versus your defense already, tossing an extra 3 or 5 OS on them can bring GOD down in a hurry.

Also consider Diffusion of Attack or Firewall to really cripple them. An unlucky roll can trash their offensive limit or open them up to the sprite's powers.

In that instance the technomancer has a slight edge, since they can throw the sprite at the decker and go about the hacking job while the decker contends with the active threat. Throw a few Tattletales at the decker and the techno probably has plenty of time to finish while the decker is rebooting or risking covergence.

The decker, even with an agent, wouldn't be nearly as successful at stalling the technomancer. Popping the agent would also brick the deck,while a lost sprite isn't a huge concern.

I am slightly annoyed that a TM can't really access a host without starting an OS except in pretty extreme corner cases.

the sprites that can hack can't fight worth crap. the sprites that can fight can't hack worth crap. the technomancer sicks a sprite on you, you enter the host. the sprite attempts to follow and hilarity ensues. at that point the technomancer either has to burn through 2 more tasks just to get the sprite back on you (sending it away = 1 service, sending it to attack you is another) and that assumes you don't get lucky and avoid being spotted for long enough to succeed on your task and walk away.

a large part of the reason the decker's sleaze is so low is that he's geared up for a fight.

on a side note, a hacker can basically just instantly swap all programs and attributes to whatever he wants on a whim... i mean, it's limited to the number of reconfigure programs he cares to buy (or copy), but while he can only run one instance of the program at a time, he can have as many copies in storage as he feels like.

And if we were doing a real test, that Sprite would have been compiled, not registered, because we can't at all assume that a chargen technomancer is pulling off Level 6 registrations. Which means a more notable Fading value and CM penalties. The whole thing's kinda skewed towards the technomancer, really.

And Tattletale's only-slightly-less-than-Control-Thoughts Fading value doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it literally cannot affect most of a runner's targets. It doesn't do ANYTHING, for example, to spiders, or anyone who hasn't yet begin to accumulate OS. It's a very limited tool, hence why it's an unlikely choice. And to get the OS that high, you'll need to generate a fair few hits, which means plenty of chance for a bad roll or two to take you out (especially since at that point you no longer have the benefit of Full Matrix Defense to keep the decker's Attacks at bay, which means the Stun stacks up even faster).

Really, the decker didn't NEED to stall the technomancer anyways - he probably could have flat-out finished the job faster in the first place.

also, the Decker would have been better off keeping Sleaze as his primary for another Round of 2 getting a couple of Marks on the TM, then hit him with a huge Dataspike to attempt to one shot him. that would have made the TM waste a turn with remove mark or risk the huge hurt of being Data Spiked with 2-3 marks.

Of course, the Technomancer didn't take anything supremely useful like Infusion of Sleaze. A quick trip to the dice roller with Infusion of Sleaze (Level 5, 6 Fading) has the technomancer starting with a Sleaze of 10 and 2 Stun, for 15 dice to avoid detection (versus the decker's 10/12 dice for perception).

Likewise Infusion of Firewall could start the Technomancer off with a Firewall of 13 for a measly 3 Stun, by a quick run on a dice roller, getting him 20 defense dice against attacks.

And in the first case, he's at -4 to do... Well, anything, really. In the second case, that's 3 physical, and thus -3 or -5 to do anything (depending on Running Silent or not).

In any case, I want to be clear on something: Are you trying to argue that technomancers are balanced?

Tattletale also has the issue of being Permanent. It is limited by level, so if you want to add 5 to the opposing decker, you have to thread it at level five or higher. You then have to sustain it for FIVE COMBAT TURNS. Not passes, but full turns. If you don't, the OS returns to what it was. I honestly don't see anyone willing to take a -2 for that long to add five to someones OS. I know you can have a sprite hold it, but you could also just have that sprite assist you in threading your resonance spike.

I was going to say "Registered, but your point stands" but you ninjaed me. LOL

Yeah, I am working on three hours of sleep since Saturday. I will notice things, but not always in time to avoid the dreaded Edit Button.

As soon as the kids go to bed, I am passing out and not getting up until thursday...

would the use of something like tattletale be potentially bad for the TM too? You might be racking up overwatch score on your target, but that would logically result in a virtual scramble to your 'location' (node, whatever) which would likely make the responders look for other things in addition to the OS slammed target. So the TM screams WOLF WOLF WOOOOOLLLF! invisibly, hunters respond and chase off or nuke the target, but should also be checking to see if anyone else is there too. Chumming the water would make it harder for the TM to carry out their mission even if the hacker is now gone.

I haven't seen any rules to suggest that, but I also haven't seen any rules to say that you get wet if you stand in the rain. If I were running then the demiG.O.D. would at least look around. And with their abilities it wouldn't be hard for them to notice you and see that you are not running on any device. TM's aren't the most respected beings on the Matrix...

and then he starts the whole thing with -1 to all rolls, and the second he takes a single point of matrix damage he's down to -2 on all actions, from injuries. oh, and of course the sustaining penalties for those two complex forms as well.

i'm not entirely certain having lost half of your stun track before you even start doing anything is a sound strategy. also, that just puts him another two actions behind the decker, who as mentioned should be busy getting into the host and completing the job rather than wasting any time on silly things like fighting someone who is most likely going to get the job done slower anyways.

edit: mind you, it's a heck of a lot easier to pick things apart after the fact and say "oh, well X should have done this and then Y would have lost", but to be fair, it's not like either character would have had a day and a half to pick apart the battle the way we have

But back on subject, when you go to try them out with the increased karma remember that Jared can spend his nuyen to improve his matrix attributes and his karma on his skills, giving him two ways to increase his dice pools. Tim has to spend (submersion 1 = 13) + (Resonance 7 = 35) karma for a total of 48 to raise his fade resistance pool by one die. So those complex forms that seem so nice now are going to be less and less effect as the characters advance.

1) It's 3 stun, as it was 6 hits. It only flips to physical if you get more hits than your Resonance.

2) -3 to actions seems okay considering the nigh-impenetrable 20 dice defense (25 on full defense), which beats the decker by at least 5 or 10 dice on all actions. The set-up was a fight-a-thon, not a hack-a-thon. And a cheap sprite can handle the extra -2 from sustaining for a few combat turns.

3) What's balance? Or at least what would you consider balanced? These are two disparate entities, not equivalent ones. It's an RPG, not a board game. There's some expectation of balance between two Technomancers with different priority selections, and there's some balance expectations about the general abilities of starting characters to perform their basic common tasks, but you can't just throw two characters up on the screen and suss out if they're balanced or not as compared directly to each other, especially when you start to get into abilities that one sort of character just can't replicate and even more especially when you start talking about the specialization of roles.

There are a few things that I'd offer the Technomancer that they don't currently get -- for example, the ability to "bond" a "focus" by spending Karma and nuyen on a technological device that covers the same ground as a magician's focus (and is targetable by enemy deckers/technos to fulfill the magic/techno system analogue) for activities such as sustained threading. But as they are, I don't think they're as completely hosed as you're trying to present them.

Of course technomancers have no Resonance equivalent of foci to bond with. If they were too powerful in SR4, then adding that option would've made them Matrix gods.

I think they should probably have them now. The major downside would be that they'd have to be Wireless On while active, making them pretty fat targets while in use. Also, since Resonance actions are pretty much just Thread/Sustain and Compile/Register/Decompile, I'd probably stop short of offering a Resonance Focus, instead keeping them distributed. I'd also consider a Program Focus.

These would have to be damned expensive nuyen-wise, though, or else they would get too powerful too quickly.

Might as well reuse the term "Nexus" here.

I believe they had something similar to Foci in SR4

Widgets, I believe is what you're thinking of. They took a Threading (Rating x2, 1 hour) Extended test to create, and the technomancer took Rating x2 in Fading damage. They lasted only 8 hours (no extensions), and they were lost as soon as the technomancer was knocked out. You were pretty much limited to one at a time, unless you didn't mind little ones. They could also be crashed.

The only one I really considered at the time was the RAM widget, that would hold a program (complex form or threaded skillsoft) of a total rating no greater than its own. Honestly have never had any technomancer character in SR4 go for the Widget Crafting echo myself. Just didn't seem worthwhile to me. Maybe Rendering for a compiler technomancer, but that's still iffy.

If they were rewritten for SR5, I honestly expect them to be something that'll generate OS the instant they're created, and probably require a separate echo for each type of widget you wish to make (as opposed to just one echo to pick and choose when you make one).

Were they added in an expansion book? I don't recall them in the main rulebook.

Here's a rough idea (using Nexus for Focus solely for differentiation):

Resonance Nexus (Threading or Sustaining) -- Karma (3 x Level) -- Money (6000 x Level) -- Avail (4 x Level)F

Sprite Nexus (Compiling or Registering or Decompiling) -- Karma (2 x Level) -- Money (4000 x Level) -- Avail (3 x Level)F

Program Nexus -- Karma (Level x 4 ) -- Money (Level x 9000) -- Avail (4 x Force)F

Explanations:
Forbidden for all of these, since Technomancers are all scary.

*Nexuses are technological devices in the vein of Commlinks, RCCs, and Cyberdecks. When bonded and activated, they act as if slaved to the Living Persona of the Technomancer -- that is, they use the Technomancer's Living Persona attributes instead of their own when targeted by Matrix attacks.

*A Nexus can actually be a wireless device such as a Commlink (the additional cost of the device is added to the cost of the nexus, and the worse availability is used -- but still always Forbidden), and thus be a useful tool while not activated. While not activated, it maintains whatever attributes are normal for a device of its make/model. While activated, it uses the Technomancer's, and cannot be used as its normal device type. In either case, if someone gets a look at it, it appears to contain a large amount of incomprehensible junk data that only other Technomancers can recognize as the Resonance signature of the bonded Technomancer.

*An activated Nexus is always Wireless On. It tags along under the Technomancer's Logic+Sleaze (if the Technomancer is in Hidden Mode) umbrella, though.

The Resonance Nexus is based on the Spell Focus but more expensive in both Karma and nuyen, since Spells are handily segmented into types, and Complex Forms are just Complex Forms (that is, it'd work for every CF and you don't have to have more than one to cover all the bases). It's not 5 times as expensive, since CFs don't quite have the power range of spells, but the fact that you only need one of each makes them individually worth a bit more.

Sprite Nexus = Spirit Focus. Reasonably cheap.

The Program Nexus is based on a combination of the Metamagic Focus and the Qi Focus, and is more expensive Karma-wise, and comes with some special rules:

1) Each Level of a Program Nexus can support 1 point worth of programs.
2) Common programs are valued at 1 point, Hacking programs are valued at 2 points.
3) You still have to buy the programs and store them on a data chip or somewhere else that's convenient.
4) Virtual Machine is special -- it takes no program space but temporarily adds 1 to the Level of the Nexus, at the Virtual Machine penalty of +1 unresisted damage to its owner from attacks.
5) Loading the Program Nexus is done at activation. The only way to shut down programs is to deactivate and reactivate the nexus.
*6) Programs in the Nexus can't be crashed individually -- the Nexus itself has to be crashed by Matrix attacks.

So if you activated a Level 4 Program Nexus, it could house up to 4 Common programs, or 2 Common programs and 1 Hacking program, or 2 Hacking programs. Or a variety of combinations involving the Virtual Machine. All for the low low price of 16 Karma and 36,000 nuyen.


Along down the idea line:

Some sort of Enchanting analogue for Technomancers -- Modulating / Demodulating and (?) -- for the creation/destruction of nexuses and then the temporary imbuing of a file with a triggered Complex Form.

Some sort of Reagent analogue -- think of something like Bitcoins, little scraps of unique data mined by Technomancers (or potentially Deckers who can't use them) and sold (illegally) on the Matrix.

EDIT: The above is long and probably thread-inappropriate, but I'm sort of a rules-generator that outputs to handy windows. Sorry.

EDIT-EDIT: I've made some additions, marked by *

yes the Widgets is what I was thinking of, I never said they were useful but that was the closest thing TM's had in 4E

Epic, not to throw a monkey wrench in your plan, but if you make a full on Foci style for TM's you'll wanna start at their creation, someone has to make them afterall. How will you handle the Telesma aspect? add something entirely new?

some of the widgets were pretty good. they just flat out added to your dicepool, so even just a rating 2-3 widget could add quite a bit on that basis.

Yup. Unwired, pages 147 & 148-149.

Telesma would be based on Device Rating rather than Object Resistance -- you would have to convert some existing device into a focus, generally following the Enchanting rules. I'd probably call it... Schematic Level (apparently I'm now calling the Formula equivalent a 'Schematic') plus twice the Device Rating in dice for the opposed test (to make up for the 1-6ish scale rather than the 3/6/9/15+ scale of OR).

This system needs new Modulating (Artificing) and Demodulating (Disenchanting) skills to work (unnamed third skill for triggered CF files a la Alchemy to round out the group). Replace 'Arcana' with 'Hardware' where relevant, regarding Schematics.

Anything with a wireless connection can be the 'telesma' here -- while active its function is entirely replaced with its duty as a nexus, though.

Rules while I'm thinking about it: Matrix damage boxes are based on the Device Rating of the nexus (not its Level or the TM), so having a DR 7 commlink instead of a DR 1 pile of junk is actually a decent benefit.

yes but what will be considered a "Virgin Telesma" for this? For that matter, are these going to be VR tools or will they be available in meatspace (available only in VR makes sense since thats where most if not all of the powers work). if its a Software type of thing just use Software, if not just use the Compile/Decompile skills. Think of it like in Reboot, Bob had Glitch that helped him, these would be something like Glitch(in fact Glitches would be a good name for them. Glitches in the system that allow the TM to do more than they should normally be capable of)

I think it is okay for the TM foci to be moved to the new Unwired. And it is okay for introducing an item without giving precise rules on how to make them. I don't recall precise rules on how to build a gun or a tank or even a Deck. And that is fine. The book is long enough as it is.

I agree that the agents section is a bit short. I will add the lack of statistics for Agents such as Initiative and boni in the errata thread.

Overall this thread has been extremely helpful in my understanding of good Matrix options and mechanics and I am very much looking forward to the 100 Karma rematch

I'm not following your line of questions at this point. If you're asking what the telesma literally are for the purposes of this stuff, they're any piece of wireless gear with a device rating. Commlinks would be good ways to get higher DR cheaply, but I'm presuming you could use anything from a survival knife to a medkit.