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ShadowDragon8685
I find it telling that the plurality of Shadowrun players prefer Shadowrun 4/4A. Between those who have tried and definitively prefer SR4/A and those who do have not (presumably owing to an outright refusal to try SR5,) SR4/A has a 47.5% stock-in-trade.

SR5 has just barely over half that, with the remainder being made up of SR3/2 and a single SR1 holdout.
Epicedion
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 12 2013, 02:36 PM) *
I find it telling that the plurality of Shadowrun players prefer Shadowrun 4/4A. Between those who have tried and definitively prefer SR4/A and those who do have not (presumably owing to an outright refusal to try SR5,) SR4/A has a 47.5% stock-in-trade.

SR5 has just barely over half that, with the remainder being made up of SR3/2 and a single SR1 holdout.


It's a self-selected sample from a niche community. You can't draw any conclusions from that.
Isath
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 12 2013, 10:03 PM) *
It's a self-selected sample from a niche community. You can't draw any conclusions from that.


You can, but you shouldn't. I myself find SR4A preferable (although not on all accounts), but that doesn't change the nature of polls and statistics that are derived from them.
DuckEggBlue Omega
And that's a pretty biased presentation of numbers. Saying that '4/A has 47.5% and 5 barely over half that', sounds alot different to 'amongst people who actually tried 5, slightly more people actually preferred 5 to 4/A' (also biased wording). Even how the poll is worded 'Haven't tried 5th but prefer X' potentially gets different answers to 'Prefer X but haven't tried 5th', and can be interpretted differently.

All that considered, and compared to any edition change for any game, I think those numbers look pretty good for 5 though. Not to mention that the longer the game is out the more the numbers are likely to move in it's favour, as more people get to play it or even just come to grips with it, and as more shiny new books are released. People like new shinies.
Erik Baird
As much as I like new shinies, I'm getting tired of the need to purchase new books with basically the same information in a slightly different format for new editions of the same game. Shadowrun, D&D, WHFB/WH40K, Star Wars, Battletech, GURPS, Traveller, etc ad nausium....
DuckEggBlue Omega
Fair enough, but it's no worse than new books with slightly different info for the same edition (look, more slightly different guns!).

New shinies are also good for patching holes in the game. One of the first negative reactions I had to SR5 was the only vehicle uprade options seems to be 'add weapons'. But if/when I pick up the ineviteble Rigger book (interesting aside, there was no Rigger 4, so what would it be called?) that won't bother me anymore.

As said my perspective may differ to many, I completely skipped 4/A and I know my current gaming group would be unable/unwilling to wrap their heads around SR3, so here's hoping SR5 works out well.
Blade
If the new shinies in SR5 don't break the system the way they eventually did in SR4, I'd be impressed and more willing to switch to SR5.
RHat
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 12 2013, 11:36 AM) *
I find it telling that the plurality of Shadowrun players prefer Shadowrun 4/4A. Between those who have tried and definitively prefer SR4/A and those who do have not (presumably owing to an outright refusal to try SR5,) SR4/A has a 47.5% stock-in-trade.

SR5 has just barely over half that, with the remainder being made up of SR3/2 and a single SR1 holdout.


It's pretty far out there to assume that every person who means to try Sr5 has done so. I find it rather interesting that such a large portion either prefers SR5 or has yet to try it.

Though I had expected a strong slant to earlier editions given the audience.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Oct 12 2013, 06:40 PM) *
New shinies are also good for patching holes in the game. One of the first negative reactions I had to SR5 was the only vehicle uprade options seems to be 'add weapons'. But if/when I pick up the ineviteble Rigger book (interesting aside, there was no Rigger 4, so what would it be called?) that won't bother me anymore.

There was a Rigger 4, and its amazing. Hover boards, giant mechs, human size drones, dragon transport, donuts. It has everything a rigger could ever want. And I don't care what anyone says, I say all of that is legit and legal in SR4.
RHat
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Oct 14 2013, 02:38 PM) *
There was a Rigger 4, and its amazing. Hover boards, giant mechs, human size drones, dragon transport, donuts. It has everything a rigger could ever want. And I don't care what anyone says, I say all of that is legit and legal in SR4.


Apparently, it was actually written on the principle that you should be able to use the content if you do desired. Which is awesome.
DuckEggBlue Omega
Now I feel bad, I had completely forgotten about that. Guess there will be a Rigger 5 then, which is good, though I had a real love/hate thing for Rigger 3.
binarywraith
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 14 2013, 01:58 PM) *
It's pretty far out there to assume that every person who means to try Sr5 has done so. I find it rather interesting that such a large portion either prefers SR5 or has yet to try it.

Though I had expected a strong slant to earlier editions given the audience.


That number'll go up in the next few months. A lot of folks, from what I can tell, generally only play Missions. So now that there's SR5 missions content out there, more will get a chance to play it.
Kinjin
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 12 2013, 01:36 PM) *
I find it telling that the plurality of Shadowrun players prefer Shadowrun 4/4A. Between those who have tried and definitively prefer SR4/A and those who do have not (presumably owing to an outright refusal to try SR5,) SR4/A has a 47.5% stock-in-trade.

SR5 has just barely over half that, with the remainder being made up of SR3/2 and a single SR1 holdout.



Interesting take on the data, as I read it as "The largest portion of players who have tried SR5, prefer it". wink.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Erik Baird @ Oct 12 2013, 08:14 PM) *
As much as I like new shinies, I'm getting tired of the need to purchase new books with basically the same information in a slightly different format for new editions of the same game. Shadowrun, D&D, WHFB/WH40K, Star Wars, Battletech, GURPS, Traveller, etc ad nausium....


Buy Pheonix Command once and be done with it. smile.gif
Bigity
I prefer 2nd but want to give 5 a try, but the errata thread keeps scaring me off any serious attempts.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Kinjin @ Oct 15 2013, 02:08 PM) *
Interesting take on the data, as I read it as "The largest portion of players who have tried SR5, prefer it". wink.gif


That's not at all what it says.

Out of 65.12% of players who have tried SR5, only 25% - less than half of those who have tried it - prefer SR5. It's hardly a breakout hit by any means, and the "have not tried 5th yet" crowd likely includes a majority of "refuse to try SR5 because I've already heard/read enough about/of it to know it's going to be utter dogshit" votes (such as mine).

And even if you want to play the plurality-of-those-who-have-tried-SR5 card, ignoring those who refuse to even try it because they already know enough to know that they'd hate it because their votes got lumped in with those who are open to it being a good system but haven't had time/resources to try it yet, SR5 is ahead by so little that even the SR2 die-hards swing things against them.
bannockburn
"Don't trust any statistic you didn't make up yourself", or wasn't it?

In other words: You're all making up your own interpretations of these numbers. I'm guilty myself.

For the record: I prefer SR4, even if SR5 has a few interesting concepts, I don't see a reason to switch and spend all that money again. It simply isn't that good. The last straw for me is the fallback to idiot prices which, coupled with insanely low monetary reward recommendations, making upgrades to decks or cyberware in a running game very hard. I'll stay with SR4 prices and multipliers, thankyouverymuch.

Oh, and the hate for knowledge skills. What did they ever do to you, dear author(s) of that chapter?
ShadowDragon8685
bannockburn: Idiot prices?

The final straw for me was the online bonuses and the hamfisted attempts to make the Matrix a computerized analog to the Astral, a literal and figurative backslide in every way from SR4 that can't be remotely justified in setting.
The additional straws that made the poor camel bellow in agony were the retconning of HMHVV, nanotechnology, and basically attempting to turn back the setting to the 2050s. If they wanted that, they should have just relaunched the game line in the 2050s.


SR5 has some concepts I'd like, namely the caps on successes, and maybe some of their "hacking is no longer an hour-long minigame for one plus the GM, unless there's more than one focused hacker in the group" stuff, but it's just not worth all the bonkers shit. I'd sooner simply back-port those into SR4.
Kinjin
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 15 2013, 05:15 PM) *
That's not at all what it says.


I know, I might have been a bit to subtle in my humour. wink.gif

Given the nature of the options and the (extremely) small number of votes, any number of different interpretations could be created. Including that it's not a 'break out hit'. Following your logic that of those who have tried it, SR4 is even less popular (by a whole person at the point of this post) which after all these years would suggest a failed game (which is a surprise lol). And the massive crowd of 46 people who haven't tried it, may include people who have read/heard enough to have a view as to the utter dog shitness of it, but there is no evidence as to whether that is a large percentage or whether you are projecting your own view onto them. It could be that they are so happy with their chosen product that they can't even think of looking at another. I suspect you are right in that is probably their view, but without evidence the poll it's pure guesswork.

I have vague memories of SR4 not being popular with the SR3 crowd when it came out, but that's a long time ago, so I could be wrong...
bannockburn
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 16 2013, 05:39 AM) *
bannockburn: Idiot prices?

[...]

SR5 has some concepts I'd like, namely the caps on successes, and maybe some of their "hacking is no longer an hour-long minigame for one plus the GM, unless there's more than one focused hacker in the group" stuff, but it's just not worth all the bonkers shit. I'd sooner simply back-port those into SR4.


The price hike, especially on cyberware. The prices of decks are a tad too high either to realistically be able to upgrade outside of character creation. One thing I really liked about 4th edition was the ability for characters to start out with only a bit of ware and implant stuff with their hard earned money during gameplay, instead of making things up like "Rich heir, was able to buy wired reflexes 2" as a background and calling it a day.

In SR3, it was fine-ish, because the payment was usually high enough to make certain pieces of ware an attainable goal, as seen in example payments in official campaigns and adventures.

SR5 goes back to SR3 prices, while recommending about 30k for an almost suicidal run with hardcore opposition (or roundabout, I have done the math once, and can't be bothered to look at this table again). This constitutes a high disparity to the prices of upgrades and makes them almost as unobtainable as buying a nuclear submarine in SR4 (and yes, that is exaggeration for effect), and this is not even mentioning the premise that table uses, namely that it appears to assume that the characters only get to know what their payment is AFTER the run.

This all does not mean that I think SR5 is generally bad; quite the opposite.
I think it's a solid system (with some issues, but which system doesn't have those, honestly?) with interesting concepts and some genuinely good ideas, like the matrix. My personal complaint about SR4 matrix isn't that it takes long, but rather that it's mostly a (or several) bucket full of dice. But I can see where that issue comes from.

In my mind, SR5 is a good deal for people who come back from earlier editions, new players and people who play missions at conventions.
For me, however, with a full SR4 collection, it doesn't have compelling reasons to switch.
Epicedion
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Oct 16 2013, 05:46 AM) *
In SR3, it was fine-ish, because the payment was usually high enough to make certain pieces of ware an attainable goal, as seen in example payments in official campaigns and adventures.


SR3 recommended a base payment of average team Lifestyle, per runner. So maybe 2,000 nuyen. I think SR5 suggests a bit more than that.
bannockburn
Personally, I don't even remember if the core book even made a recommendation. Do you have a source for that? In a cursory search, I only found an entry in the companion, with a table and the note that this should be 'modified according to the situation'.

My point was, just about every official adventure I can remember (may cross over back to SR2 adventures, though) didn't pay so low, which made it 'fine-ish' wink.gif, i.e. worse than SR4, better than SR5.

But I really don't want to discuss this any further*. It's not as if I don't want people to play SR5, or convince them of my point of view. This is just one of my personal reasons for not playing it smile.gif

*at least here. You're welcome to PM me.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Isath @ Oct 12 2013, 04:30 PM) *
You can, but you shouldn't. I myself find SR4A preferable (although not on all accounts), but that doesn't change the nature of polls and statistics that are derived from them.



Well being into statistics as a profession, this is a very informal one. It applies only to those on dumpshock and not the general populace. But personally I'd give those on Dumpshock more cred when looking at the newest edition and comparing it to the older editions. I find the results interesting, just keep in mind what people prefer does not they are playing that version.
Epicedion
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Oct 16 2013, 02:23 PM) *
Personally, I don't even remember if the core book even made a recommendation. Do you have a source for that? In a cursory search, I only found an entry in the companion, with a table and the note that this should be 'modified according to the situation'.


It does. P241 of the SR3 core book:

QUOTE
Getting Paid
Deciding how much nuyen to pay a shadowrunner for a run is the gamemaster's toughest job. A simple rule of thumb is to pay a runner enough in a month to pay for his or her lifestyle(s). To simulate real life, the gamemaster can create a pay scale based on how long the job will take in days and divide that by the character's monthly expenses (generally his lifestyle). The base payment can be increased by good negotiations or incentives—for example, the runners might get to keep anything they can carry, or receive bonuses for certain actions (keeping quiet, framing a rival and so on). To determine an appropriate base payment for a run, add together the characters' lifestyle expenses and calculate the average, then multiply by the number of team members going on the run.


That last bit is a funny way of saying "add up the characters' lifestyles."

This seems to imply that Shadowrunners should barely be making ends meet, and shouldn't be stashing away tens of thousands of extra nuyen every month.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:19 PM) *
This seems to imply that Shadowrunners should barely be making ends meet, and shouldn't be stashing away tens of thousands of extra nuyen every month.


Thanks for looking it up smile.gif
Further information on my view is found in my last post.
Bigity
I think we'd need to see a faaaaaaar more dystopian world for that kind of peanuts pay.

And gear would have to be dirt cheap, including ware.

Or corps burn through alot of company men who split and take stuff with them.
Draco18s
QUOTE
To determine an appropriate base payment for a run, add together the characters' lifestyle expenses and calculate the average, then multiply by the number of team members going on the run.


So...

1) Add all lifestyle costs
2) Divide by number of PCs
3) Multiply by number of PCs?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 17 2013, 03:45 PM) *
I think we'd need to see a faaaaaaar more dystopian world for that kind of peanuts pay.

And gear would have to be dirt cheap, including ware.

Or corps burn through alot of company men who split and take stuff with them.


I didn't make that up, it's a direct quote from the SR3 core rulebook.

Otherwise, yeah, it's crap pay. I think the actual implication is that most runs pay crap and runners take those jobs just so they can eat and keep the power on, holding out for the potential opportunity to pick up bigger scores. Remember also that most runs (that is, most of the runs in the setting, keeping in mind that PCs are always somewhat special compared to the set of all other runners) aren't supposed to be breaking into high-security areas of the SCIRE, fighting legions of Red Samurai, and stealing prototype fusion plasma rifles worth billions. They're mostly just breaking into offices, torching documents, extracting middle managers, and stealing data.

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 17 2013, 03:48 PM) *
So...

1) Add all lifestyle costs
2) Divide by number of PCs
3) Multiply by number of PCs?


Yeah. Since step 3 cancels out step 2, you pretty much just have to do step 1. I'm guessing whoever wrote that paragraph didn't do so hot in algebra.
ShadowDragon8685
And that is why player characters will do anything they can think of to make a nuyen, up to and including stripping an office they hit down to bare walls and floors and flogging the carpet, furniture, fixtures, and the bodies of the workers.
Godwyn
QUOTE (RHat @ Oct 7 2013, 04:44 PM) *
Godwin: Curious what those houserules are, you mind sharing?

And as an aside, I'm amuzed by how nice a curve the responses have formed.


I was thinking of a good place to respond, as this forum isn't specifically for it, but some of the house rules tie into the current discussion, namely shadowrunner pay.

First homerule/errata was to use the missions hotfix. It is well put together and addressed a couple of issues. Since a player is a mystic adept, the karma increase for powerpoints was important to have in. As for mysads being op, while they may have potential, his build as a troll one certainly is not.

Second were some changes to technomancers I was hoping to test out and see how balanced it was. I proposed it at some point in another thread as well, and that was a single downward shift for the technomancer quality on the priority table. Sadly, no one is playing a technomancer in this campaign so I did not get to actively see how this worked out. Ameliorated somewhat by something else I recently noticed in the rulebook that I think looks promising.

Gear Changes: Wireless bonii. They are just so horribly implemented that not one person who looked in the gear section (which is everyone), thought they looked good, made sense, or were desirable in any way. For us, gear has always been hackable, that isn't really a change, and no one opposes it. What people do oppose is wireless bonuses that are bad. I really just can't find words to describe what was done other than bad. We ( I am co-dming with someone) keep looking at ways to implement them, but it is such a mess that we have mostly just ignored them so far, and for anything implanted DNI allows access to the wireless bonus.

Payment: We are using the base scale, which for starting runners works well. People complain and moan, but if you look at the numbers involved, for a starting group it gives a good, decent payment, usually between 7 and 13 thousand for a basic run. What it fails to do is scale upwards adequately as the runners advance. For this we are modifying the scale by adding street cred as a multiplier. This is still being tested a bit, we aren't sure if we should settle on street cred or street cred/2 for what the multiplier should be. Functions smoothly, as the runners become better known, they are offered more pay based on that reputation.

Magic: We allowed the grey rules area where a mundane can buy up their magic with spare karma during chargen. No spells, no powerpoints, but it gives them access to magical skills such as enchanting, and astral perception with deepweed. Part of this was for a specific character concept.
Also, we allow adepts to use enchanting and alchemy to make magical things.

Its really a pretty short list, because we find the rules set works well. Most of the magic changes were a simple preference, and we don't feel it hurts the game going either way. Technomancers 'feel' a bit on the weak side, but that may change if the Essence loss for technos listed in the book is correct and not an errata, but still makes them the most complex character to create a top notch one to start out.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 18 2013, 07:44 AM) *
And that is why player characters will do anything they can think of to make a nuyen, up to and including stripping an office they hit down to bare walls and floors and flogging the carpet, furniture, fixtures, and the bodies of the workers.

Actually, if I'm honest that's a carry over from my old campaign in that other game. Our GM was infamously stingy (with the result that once again magic outstripped mundanes, due to the mage progressing with their powers apace while the fighter types found themselves without magical gear to help them keep up.) My sorcerer, originally envisioned as an evoker-style piromaniac (raise your hands if this news surprises you) ended up taking spells that filled niches normally filled by gear (EG: Greater magic weapon, mount, rope trick, mage armour) to help his allies overcome the fact they had clubs and rags as their primary weapons and armour, yet were still expected to go off and save the kingdom on the orders of epic-level NPCs.

As a direct result of this my first shadowrunner was of the type who brought a crowbar along to steal the nails and whatever they were holding down. Enemies were chopped up for 'ware or organs, hijacking the target's pimped out vehicle was higher priority than completing the mission, that sort of thing.

In our first run the payout was 4 grand between us. Due to excessive amounts of looting and judicious grand theft, petty theft, larsony, pickpocketting, swindling, pilfering, and swiping we ended up netting 75+ grand each for our 4-man team.

After that the GM reached a compromise with us and we toned it down, and the runs actually payed enough for us to eat.

EDIT: oh, and if you're wondering if those epic-level NPCs had access to any resources that would be helpful? Yes. They had to build several extra fortresses to protect all their fat loots. Did we get any help from them? Nope. Damn racist elves.
[ Spoiler ]
ShadowDragon8685
Wow. That's the sort of GM that you want to club over the head with the rulebook, and remind them that the Wealth by Level rules are not mere guidelines.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 21 2013, 07:18 AM) *
Wow. That's the sort of GM that you want to club over the head with the rulebook, and remind them that the Wealth by Level rules are not mere guidelines.

We did, and he woke up and realized that having enough cash to buy food might be workable after all. Still, we were about level 9 when we started getting cash.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 20 2013, 07:29 PM) *
We did, and he woke up and realized that having enough cash to buy food might be workable after all. Still, we were about level 9 when we started getting cash.


LOL, he should have been, "Due to the economic downturn, the Emperor is actually hiring you part time so he doesn't have to pay you benefits, and if you save the kingdom but it takes more hours than he paid for he isn't going to pay you the difference".
ElFenrir
I've always paid based on a mix of lifestyle costs and other odds and ends. Generally speaking I'd end up shoveling out, after doing bits and bobs of stuff, 20k for starting characters for an average-difficulty run. I was a bit more generous though(and still am), and we play a slightly above average game in terms of power. (Of course, they could take milk runs if they wanted, but those didn't pay so hot-they weren't terribly dangerous, though. I'd also often make a couple of big scores that had bigger threats attached available, of course-should they want to take the risk.) But I think 20k a head for an average run is a solid pay bit-it allows for a solid lifestyle(or a couple smaller ones), saving up for goodies, and covering extra costs(resources expended on a run, medical bills, and so on.)

However, it's not *quite* enough to want to sit back and do only one per month if you're the type who wants bigger goodies. (Example: Damn, I want that Synaptic Booster 2, and damn, that's 190k...yeah, sure I'll do one run a month and get the thing in two years...) If for some reason I sense people are getting a bit too cosy I might throw in a wrench or two of course. For example, after a couple of these, to prevent credsticks from becoming too fat, the 'average' runs might dry up awhile, causing the crew to have to accept little milk-runs or whatnot-and if they don't and choose to get lazy, they'll find the credsticks draining and then they might not want to turn their noses up at the little milk runs.

If you think 20k seems excessive for an 'average' difficulty run, I also play things that these are not the most common runs-as said, the milk runs tend to be far more common. These don't pop up every day(and they probably take some setting up, time passing for meets and stuff, so you won't be taking more than a couple 20k runs a month at best even IF they were offered.) I was more discussing 'difficulty to pay' ratio.

All in all I'm generous enough with my players that they feel like they're getting somewhere(again, we don't play the type of game generally where you're constantly trying to scrap for nutrisoy while betting on devil rat fights), but not *so* generous they get too lazy.

Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 17 2013, 07:44 PM) *
And that is why player characters will do anything they can think of to make a nuyen, up to and including stripping an office they hit down to bare walls and floors and flogging the carpet, furniture, fixtures, and the bodies of the workers.


If you think about it that would kind of be an amusing economic commentary. If all the corporate people have unsatisfying lives or whatever but they wear suits and get to work the coffee machine, whereas the runners are doing all kinds of dangerous work for less pay but then hilariously strip the carpets and steal the coffee machines and silverware whenever they go into an office for a mission.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 21 2013, 07:34 AM) *
All in all I'm generous enough with my players that they feel like they're getting somewhere(again, we don't play the type of game generally where you're constantly trying to scrap for nutrisoy while betting on devil rat fights), but not *so* generous they get too lazy.


That's where I am as GM, the pay has to be enough the players don't go GTA. Other things I consider is the value of the target, the higher its value the higher the pay will be. This does not necessarily mean difficulty, but usually does.
Trismegistus
I haven't played Fifth yet, but my heart will always belong to SR2's metaplot.
LordHaHa
I'm the one guy who, so far, voted for "SR1 but haven't touched SR5 yet". To be fair I think the mechanics are...uh, not optimized but the STYLE. Most of my favorite sourcebooks are from the SR1 era.

That said, I really cut my teeth on SR3. I've never actually played SR as a player, excepting things like the computer/video games ala "Shadowrun Returns". But I was an SR3 GM for the better part of a decade and had a real long runner. I'd still like to actually work on that story, but all my old crew are working now so I might just do it as an SRR mod someday. I don't remember half of the rules anymore but give a few weeks and I am sure I could dust off all my old house rules. Since the rules for 3 were preferable but the setting for 1 was king, I did a 2050 and forward scenario using SR3 rules. Have somewhat similar rules between the two helped.

Actually I take back the "never played tabletop as a player" thing. I did do a (heavily modified) SR2 game as a player, once. Only problem is that the GM had certain...issues, one of which was being fairly bad at GMing. When you do "time stop" magic in your first mission you are doing it wrong.

I bought SR4, never played it as it came out as my group got tangled up in real life. I didn't mind the attempt to streamline the rules, although I though the fluff (which I think is the real meat of SR) was starting to suffer at that time. I like some of the more recent developments though.

I may pick up SR5 if my circumstances improve. As it is right now, as interested as I am to investigate the fuss about it, I don't have the time or people for tabletop gaming.

LordHaHa
NeoJudas
QUOTE (Erik Baird @ Oct 12 2013, 07:14 PM) *
As much as I like new shinies, I'm getting tired of the need to purchase new books with basically the same information in a slightly different format for new editions of the same game. Shadowrun, D&D, WHFB/WH40K, Star Wars, Battletech, GURPS, Traveller, etc ad nausium....

Behold the failing of the Inspiration Box.....
NeoJudas
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Oct 15 2013, 07:51 AM) *
That number'll go up in the next few months. A lot of folks, from what I can tell, generally only play Missions. So now that there's SR5 missions content out there, more will get a chance to play it.

... and aside from my online friends who handle these, this detail (if true) saddens me. RPG's are meant to be played in-person, around a table in a "mancave" or something similar. And they need to be managed by people that aren't afraid to go it on their own and away from the books. That is how inspiration really grows IMO.
NeoJudas
QUOTE (Godwyn @ Oct 17 2013, 07:37 PM) *
First homerule/errata was to use the missions hotfix. It is well put together and addressed a couple of issues. Since a player is a mystic adept, the karma increase for powerpoints was important to have in. As for mysads being op, while they may have potential, his build as a troll one certainly is not.
Definitely do not know that one, may have to ask the guys in the group who do play Missions to explain to me tomorrow night.

QUOTE
Gear Changes: Wireless bonii. They are just so horribly implemented that not one person who looked in the gear section (which is everyone), thought they looked good, made sense, or were desirable in any way. For us, gear has always been hackable, that isn't really a change, and no one opposes it. What people do oppose is wireless bonuses that are bad. I really just can't find words to describe what was done other than bad. We ( I am co-dming with someone) keep looking at ways to implement them, but it is such a mess that we have mostly just ignored them so far, and for anything implanted DNI allows access to the wireless bonus.
This is something that the security conscious in me just can't stand. I tried to think of it from a POV that I could then explain to other players (new or old). I came up with this: it's like those "gadgets" on your Smartphone. Those things that make it do cool shit like GPS (Faux or Real), Weather, FB, Square/Credit Transactors, etc.... most of the time, the phone isn't doing much of anything, but it is ALWAYS poking it's nose into the Matrix at times it has preprogrammed. Intervals you don't control. Now just imagine your Commlink (and the first Decker I see with these running gets nailed mercilessly) as those things are trails. Datatrails. Stupid moments no one ever understands. They're are the "Sendings" in the Ritual Sorcery step from the old SR1-2-3 days where even if the spell didn't connect, the astral goon following it had a chance of seeing you if it got close. The Wireless Bonii are BONEHEADED ... especially in a combat scenario. A Smartlink with it's Matrix link open (Firewall or not) is a signal trace waiting to happen IMO.

QUOTE
Magic: We allowed the grey rules area where a mundane can buy up their magic with spare karma during chargen. No spells, no powerpoints, but it gives them access to magical skills such as enchanting, and astral perception with deepweed. Part of this was for a specific character concept.
Also, we allow adepts to use enchanting and alchemy to make magical things.
This last part we have definitely come at as well.
NeoJudas
... and now I tossed in my Voting Hat. 3rd Ed. Our House Rules expanded way beyond the mechanics of even 4th ed to the point we didn't realize it when we converted over half the time. Wireless Matrix if anything, just meant someone made a stupid gesticulation in Network Security and somehow had the Charisma/Con test to fool the world into going along for the ride.

We admit there were problems, tons of them... but we are finding 5th Ed has some huge flavor holes of it's own now. The "Limits" system is nothing more than an attempt by the game developers to help all the whiners in gaming land to curtail their players, whom apparently they couldn't curtail on their own. Sure, I admit that some things should be limiting. Let's try a few;

Maximum Melee Damage (limited by barrier/structure rating of weapons, which were actually given). If that didn't work, ask the Player what they really think they are doing and how.

Barrier Rules - We had the fix, sorry Mike... wish we could have turned 'em over to ya'll.

Character Pay - The higher the pay, the higher the stress. The more the fallout (no electronic game inferred). Even if it "went smoothly", it really didn't... the PC's just didn't always have all the facts at the start. Sometimes the "Scrounge" skill could fill in the gaps during an otherwise low-paying run (what, you mean your GM never hid "Easter Eggs" in the RPG??... and you call yourselves Gamers....)

Magic ... well if the PC's have magic, sure as hell the NPC's do too. Or better yet, they didn't... and compensated in Evil™ methods as yet unseen.

Technomancer(y) ... it's Magic, it just manifested differently. We even found ways to explain it through 4th all the way to 5th now (we are currently playing the unrolling of the 5th Ed OS as a World Event and why). It wasn't that hard to understand, everyone just made it that way.

Riggers v. Deckers ... the implants were always there, they didn't have to go away. The dice mechanics were easy enough to convert, so just do it. The stuff has, after a fashion, made a comeback now anyway in 5th.

=====

That's a few, our own game site is slowly filling up as we continue to clarify and convert to 5th Ed (new players, fewer old players). I find a lot of things interesting as hell as a GM and a player with *EVERY* edition of Shadowrun that has come out. 3rd Ed was the switching point for us. It was where we truly made the leap and as such will be my personal favorite. It doesn't mean I won't play, and it doesn't mean I won't adapt. In fact, for me personally, learning to adapt what we've had for ages adapting to the "changing world" makes up plenty of challenge in and unto itself.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Oct 27 2013, 11:39 AM) *
... and aside from my online friends who handle these, this detail (if true) saddens me. RPG's are meant to be played in-person, around a table in a "mancave" or something similar. And they need to be managed by people that aren't afraid to go it on their own and away from the books. That is how inspiration really grows IMO.

Our local gaming shop includes a 'Mancave' bigger than the sales floor section, which caters for all the products they sell and pays for itself with memberships and snack food sales. It is awesome.
NeoJudas
(slid OT here)
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 27 2013, 02:36 AM) *
Our local gaming shop includes a 'Mancave' bigger than the sales floor section, which caters for all the products they sell and pays for itself with memberships and snack food sales. It is awesome.

... *THAT* is truly good to hear. Many gaming stores do this, and it's always been an amazing consideration that these shops persist in this and do as well as they do. I'm always however very curious to hear about people who get to game "in a home". Not everyone is a college student, or younger, and a lot of people play at home still. And yes, I do know of the magnitude of gaming in the military.
hermit
Liked SR1 through 3, though towards the end, it became extremely fragmented.
Liked SR4A, not so much SR4; SR4A fixed many but not all my woes with the system. The treatment of riggers was appaling
SR5 is a bunch of good ideas, wasted by bad editing and a few authors royally screwing up.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 27 2013, 12:36 AM) *
Our local gaming shop includes a 'Mancave' bigger than the sales floor section, which caters for all the products they sell and pays for itself with memberships and snack food sales. It is awesome.


When I was in the Corps, and stationed at MCAGCC 29 Palms, the local gaming store had such a cave... it was awesome.
Have been playing and running games in the Home for the last 22 years, and don't see us stopping. The best man cave is the familiar man cave. smile.gif
Draco18s
I had a local game shop that took up 2 medium (not the ultra narrow usually reserved for No1 China Takeout) sized strip mall spaces, one of which was the gaming area. Then they moved into a nearby mall, then the owner moved back to Michigan(?) and closed up shop. I was sads.

Just found a place near my current workplace and while I stopped in long enough to browse (I was buying some cardsleeves for my Dice Cards while I waited for my chinese food from the place next door), I didn't notice a whole lot of gaming space.
mister__joshua
QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Oct 27 2013, 01:17 PM) *
(slid OT here)

... *THAT* is truly good to hear. Many gaming stores do this, and it's always been an amazing consideration that these shops persist in this and do as well as they do. I'm always however very curious to hear about people who get to game "in a home". Not everyone is a college student, or younger, and a lot of people play at home still. And yes, I do know of the magnitude of gaming in the military.



I consider myself very lucky. I've played with the same group since high school, some 15 years ago. We were friends before that. Back then we used to play 3 times a week, and occasionally weekends too. Over the years we dropped down to twice and then once a week as we all had our own jobs/houses/marriages/kids to deal with. Some players have joined, some have left, but we still have a regular group of 5 playing every week. We've vowed to keep it going until we're too old to read books and too arthritic to roll dice. biggrin.gif
Sengir
Fixed TNs were a vast improvement over previous editions, sorry SR 1-3. That leaves 4 or 5, which have vastly different levels of maturity...I'll withhold my final judgement until 5 at least has working (for me) chargen options wink.gif
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