Full Version: Form-fitting Body Armor
Somewhere, sometime I got it in my head that layering does not pertain to form-fitting armor. What a wonderful and glorious invention. However, my hopes were shattered when I checked M&M and according to cannon FFA only negates combat pool penalties. Anyone know where I may have picked up that incorrect info? Maybe errata or something?
Check the errata (www.shadowrunrpg.com). I do believe it removes the quickness penalties, as well.
But it does layer like normal armor right?
Yep, it's halved if you're wearing any armor with a Ballistic or Impact rating higher than its rating, otherwise it's at its full ratingl. Beyond that, it basically doesn't count as another layer of armor.
I can't seem to find the rule, and I know one of ya'll must know this off the top of yer head, so, in layering, do you round down or up?
The rule is to round down, but most of the time we house rule it to round up, as long as people aren't getting crazy with stacking. We see no reason a 3/1 form-fitting half suit shouldn't go ahead and give 2/1 on top of a jacket or long coat or something.
I'd say, round down, to a minimum of 1. So, a 3/1 half suit would be 1/1. Or a 4/1 full suit would be 2/1.
by the book, you round down with no minimum. minimum 1 is a fairly common houserule, though.
Yeah, I looked in the rules, and saw that it only affects combat pool penalties, as well. which is all fine and good, but it's the quickness penalties that are more restrictive when layering.
I'll have to look for the erratta. Even if the errata doesn't fix this, FFBA still has a role to play - FFBA 1 & 2 are still pretty concealable under normal clothing. Nobody ever wears FFBA 3 - cause how are you going to hide the hood, gloves and booties?
I'll have to look for the erratta. Even if the errata doesn't fix this, FFBA still has a role to play - FFBA 1 & 2 are still pretty concealable under normal clothing. Nobody ever wears FFBA 3 - cause how are you going to hide the hood, gloves and booties?
They come with those things, you don't have to wear them to gain the benefit of the armor. They're an extra incentive for someone who wants, say, Thermal Dampening or Ruthenium Polymers... or to hide their fingerprints and face on a run.
Note that the Half-Body Suit only covers the thighs, groin, and torso; the arms and lower legs are fully exposed. That's where the extra Ballistic +1 comes into play with the Full-Body Suit.
Unless you use house rules or aren't wearing any other armor, the Half-Body Suit doesn't provide any functional armor improvement over the Shirt; +1/+0 for both.
Note that the Half-Body Suit only covers the thighs, groin, and torso; the arms and lower legs are fully exposed. That's where the extra Ballistic +1 comes into play with the Full-Body Suit.
Unless you use house rules or aren't wearing any other armor, the Half-Body Suit doesn't provide any functional armor improvement over the Shirt; +1/+0 for both.
| QUOTE (Lantzer) |
| how are you going to hide the hood, gloves and booties? |
Clearly you can somehow, as it has a Conceal of 10 IIRC.
~J
It's actually Concealability 12, I believe.
Yeah, but still. Hiding the hood and gloves isn't going to be practical in a walking around everyday type situation. Now, once you get down to business on the run, that's one thing, but meeting up with the Johnson or doing bodyguard work, etc, you're going to probably stick to the half-suit so you don't look like a complete idiot.
Conceal 12 sounds eminently practical. The only thing I can think of that would make it impractical is Summer.
~J
~J
Again, the context is that the hood and gloves are extras. They're not required for the armor benefits. You would have to strip off the arm and lower leg portions to get to the equivalence of the half-body suit.
well, I'm not saying it would be easy to hide, but to hide a hood covering most of your head you'd have to wear a hood or something else covering most of your head. Which, in most situations isn't practical. Obviously the FFBA would be easily hidden, but the means to do so are obvious, at least with the hood. Gloves over the FFBA gloves are less conspicuous, but I still don't see gloves coming back into fashion or anything.
Just because it has a Conceal of 12 just means it's not hard to cover up, but at the same time covering up 95% of your body in most places, especially indoors just isn't practical or inconspicuous, imo. How often do you go out and about and see someone covered from head to toe except their face? Not very often.
I suppose you could use some sort of wig with long hair or something on the hood, but I still think wearing it out and about around town just isn't practical. Suit up with the full suit for the actual run, but wear the half-suit around town and for everday protection.
Just because it has a Conceal of 12 just means it's not hard to cover up, but at the same time covering up 95% of your body in most places, especially indoors just isn't practical or inconspicuous, imo. How often do you go out and about and see someone covered from head to toe except their face? Not very often.
I suppose you could use some sort of wig with long hair or something on the hood, but I still think wearing it out and about around town just isn't practical. Suit up with the full suit for the actual run, but wear the half-suit around town and for everday protection.
Tucking the hood into the back of your collar or whatever. Unless you're going to houserule the conceal to only apply under certain conditions, there is incontrovertibly some way to conceal it while wearing normal clothes (long pants, long-sleeved shirt).
~J
~J
Step 1.) Wear jeans, wear shoes, wear long-sleeved shirt.
Step 2.) Remove hood, remove gloves.
Step 3.) Place hood and gloves in pocket.
Step 2.) Remove hood, remove gloves.
Step 3.) Place hood and gloves in pocket.
But if you're not wearing the hood and gloves does it still give the full benefit of protection? Where do you draw the line between the half-suit and the full-suit?
If you take off the gloves and hood the only difference between the two at that point is that the full suit continues to cover the forearms and calves. Do you lower the protection rating of the full-suit without the hood and gloves? Do you just ignore it?
I'll admit it's something we ignored for a long time, and everyone just wore full FFBA suits all the time...
If you take off the gloves and hood the only difference between the two at that point is that the full suit continues to cover the forearms and calves. Do you lower the protection rating of the full-suit without the hood and gloves? Do you just ignore it?
I'll admit it's something we ignored for a long time, and everyone just wore full FFBA suits all the time...
| QUOTE (Connor @ May 2 2004, 12:25 PM) |
| But if you're not wearing the hood and gloves does it still give the full benefit of protection? Where do you draw the line between the half-suit and the full-suit? |
Again, the context is that the hood and gloves are extras. They're not required for the armor benefits. You would have to strip off the arm and lower leg portions to get to the equivalence of the half-body suit.
| QUOTE |
| If you take off the gloves and hood the only difference between the two at that point is that the full suit continues to cover the forearms and calves. Do you lower the protection rating of the full-suit without the hood and gloves? Do you just ignore it? |
And the only difference between the shirt and the half-suit is that it covers the crotch and the thighs. If you put on some gloves and a hood, you still don't have a full suit because they don't provide any notable armor protection. They're useful extras for everything mentioned earlier.
| QUOTE (Connor) |
| If you take off the gloves and hood the only difference between the two at that point is that the full suit continues to cover the forearms and calves. Do you lower the protection rating of the full-suit without the hood and gloves? Do you just ignore it? |
We always just ruled that without the gloves/hood it counted as a half-body suit for armour rating. One just for common sense, and the other because it's only a point lower balistically- and helmets, or in this case the hood, give you a +1 armour rating- so it kinda follows internal logic.
| QUOTE |
| We always just ruled that without the gloves/hood it counted as a half-body suit for armour rating. |
So, the full sleeves and lower leg coverings don't do anything?
| QUOTE |
| ...and helmets, or in this case the hood, give you a +1 armour rating- so it kinda follows internal logic. |
It follows logically if you think that a thin fabric hood can provide the same type of protection as a hard military-style helmet.
Hence the kinda. All of this is IMHO and YMMV of course. 
Well, also keep in mind that helmets typically provide Impact armor, so by that logic FFBA without the cowl would be 4/0 
And yet, oddly enough, the half-body suit, which doesn't have the optional accessories, provides 3/1. Go figure.
Clearly, in order to ensure mobility and free users from encumbrance, the full body suit is made of far crappier stuff, so you'd better wear the whole thing if you want to be safe.
UNder the rules the hood and gloves are an accessory. They have nothing to do with the rating. If you have them you get 4/1, if you don't have them you get 4/1.
The only benefit you get from them is if someone doe a called shot to your hand or back of your head.
So, everyone say it with me:
Hood and gloves have nothing to do with the rating.
The only benefit you get from them is if someone doe a called shot to your hand or back of your head.
So, everyone say it with me:
Hood and gloves have nothing to do with the rating.
Should also note that the hood and gloves shouldn't really provide a single point of ballistic. At best, I'd give a point of armor against explosions, shrapnel, and flechette. The hood should not equal a helmet.
I always thought the mental picture of what the fullsuit FFBA would look like, was what prevented me from putting it on my characters.
Basically, it would look like a full suit of longjohns with booties, gloviegloves and a nice nappynap hood.
*shudder*
Basically, it would look like a full suit of longjohns with booties, gloviegloves and a nice nappynap hood.
*shudder*
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| Basically, it would look like a full suit of longjohns with booties, gloviegloves and a nice nappynap hood. |
You forget the detail that it is skin tight (customized to each user, hence the 'form fitting' part).
And then the Troll straps the Dwarf onto his back and heads into the building. Just minding the baby while the missus is out, Mr. security guard.
~J
~J
| QUOTE ("Shadow") |
| UNder the rules the hood and gloves are an accessory. |
I don't have my copy of CC with me at the moment... could you quote the bit where it says you don't need to wear the gloves and the hood?
| QUOTE (CC @ pg. 51) |
| The full-body suit covers the entire body, including the extremeties, and comes with gloves, slippers and a hood. |
I guess it all comes down to interpretation. I'd say "comes with" means Optional, in the same way that the Rapid Transit ware , but YMMV.
All you really need to do is look at some other examples of how that type of phrasing works in the game to see what it's most likely saying.
| QUOTE |
| Ingram Smartgun (SR3 p. 277) ...comes equipped with an integral smartgun link.... FN HAR (same page) ...comes with a...top-mounted laser sight... Hecker & Koch MP-5 TX (CC p. 20) ...includes...an underbarrel-mounted laser sight. Sleeping Tiger Line (CC p. 48) ...feature a built-in concealed holster [and] fibers that change color with the application of a small electrical charge. |
There are an exhaustive number of other examples as well. These things are all just extra accessories which, unless they have their own special rules or stats, are just that: accessories. They have no bearing on the stats for the main item beyond their own.
Or are some of you going to argue that if you choose to not get a suit with the photovoltaic color shifting ability of a Sleeping Tiger Line (which has no stats, including cost for the accessory), it should have its armor rating lowered, too?
If you'd like an example of an entry that lists an accessory as armor, look at the Venetian Line (CC p. 46-48). It includes a shawl that can be wrapped around your face, effectively like a hood. However, unlike the FFBA's hood, the rules list a specific armor rating and rules -- including a price -- for this accessory. Because without it the armor rating does change, unlike FFBA where it is just a fluff accessory (albeit one that comes in handy if you want to add Thermal Dampening or Ruthenium Polymers to the suit, as previously mentioned, or play in a game with the house rules for called shots ignoring armor).
Of course, just as a minor aside, the FAQs ruling for bypassing armor is exactly that; you could be in a complete suit of armor and the Called Shot will still let you ignore it. Though, oddly enough, you do have the option to choose to hit a specific area and only apply the armor there. Gotta love weird wordings.
Oh, I get it, so that means if those integral smargtun links and laser sights end up becoming a hindrance for some reason, I can just say that it's not on my gun anymore right? I bet I could increase the concealability too, because of course it says so in the rules*
* - "rules" in this sense means words printed in a book that may or may not affect actual game play and which I vaguely interpret to the greatest benefit to myself
* - "rules" in this sense means words printed in a book that may or may not affect actual game play and which I vaguely interpret to the greatest benefit to myself
Nope.
You can, however, turn them off.
~J
You can, however, turn them off.
~J
And not all of them are integral. Hence the "top-mounted" or "underbarrel mounted" comments.
Also, as mentioned in my last post, those are all extra accessories that do not affect the main item on its own beyond its own special rules. There are no special rules for the hood or gloves because they have no rules; they're just a pair of gloves and a hood.
Also, as mentioned in my last post, those are all extra accessories that do not affect the main item on its own beyond its own special rules. There are no special rules for the hood or gloves because they have no rules; they're just a pair of gloves and a hood.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Of course, just as a minor aside, the FAQs ruling for bypassing armor is exactly that; you could be in a complete suit of armor and the Called Shot will still let you ignore it. Though, oddly enough, you do have the option to choose to hit a specific area and only apply the armor there. Gotta love weird wordings. |
I don't like called shots, for the same reason I don't like called shots in D&D. Sean K Reynolds, one of the original designers of 3rd edition D&D, puts it better than I could, and most of his reasons are shared by the similarly abstract combat system in SR.
And, of course, the best part is that if you pick a called shot to chest of a guy wearing a full suit if FFBA, he gets 4 points of ballistic. If you call to the chest of a guy wearing an FFBA shirt, 2 points. Basically, unless your game deals with armor in specific regions, called shots break down real fast.
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