I didn't want to derail another recent thread that made me think of this question.

The skilljack costs 0.1E and 20k per rating. The skillwires cost the same, but the availability restricts them to rating 3 for a starting character. Activesofts are 5k per rating, knowsofts 2k, and linguasofts 1k.

It's really expensive. Let's say you play a cybered face character who wants to have access to extra languages for cheap. You have to pay say 80k for access to rating 4 (and 0.4 essence), plus 4k per extra language.

It's even worse for an activesoft user. My understanding of the rules calls for a skilljack AND a skillwires system to be able to process activesofts. That's a 120k investment, as well as 0.6 essence, which is significant, for the privilege of having to spend 15k for each active skill you want to buy in this way. You can make use of up to 6 skills at once, up to 9 if you run wireless. Let's say you buy six skills: your 18 skill points equivalent (on which no edge can be expanded) have costed you a whopping 210k and 0.6 essence. If you are stupid enough to run skillwires wireless (sounds strange too), these skills can be used with +1 to your limit (wow!).

To me it seems that these expensive 'wares only make sense for NPCs and PCs that become extremely rich (though why not buy a lifestyle and retire? ), at which point they become truly excellent. You can have 12 extra rating 6 skills accessible for a total cost of 600k and 1.2 essence. Note that Betaware Synaptic Boosters rating 3 come down to 1.05 essence and 427.5k (and better availability too) though, just for comparison.

This being said, has anyone tried them out at character creation? Has anyone even written a character that has a skilljack for SR5?

Under SR4 there was a nice solution to this problem.
Under SR3 it was way worse in both Essence and Money Cost. And then you did not get any pools either.

Right, but what do you think of SR5's take on it?

It's pretty much on par with how it probably should be.
Seeing how you don't have to spend any KARMA on Skills anymore.
It's only worth it in the long run, if you don't plan on playing a character long enough for it to make a difference, then skill-ware was never worth it.

I'll add that what you are paying for is versatility and speed.

Most characters don't know how to fly a helicopter or plane, for example - and most characters won't want to spend the karma (and time) involved to learn how to do so. On the other hand, pay for a chip, and you can do it instantly.

Similarly, a lot of technical, B/R, and some physical skills are very useful chipped.

It also allows you to prep for a specific run - do we need to operate underwater? I'll slot Diving. Do we need to head out into the jungle/desert/tundra? I'll slot Survival. etc.

First:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AOpomu9V6Q

My Missions cyberadept has both skilljacks and wires. So far they've been situationally useful, but honestly there are really not a huge amount of different types of skill checks a typical Shadowrun team is likely to have to make. Most builds will already have most of the skills they will regularly use, some more than others.

I have run into a couple of times where I used the skillwires: "Do you have skills related to building structures?" "...I will in a moment.", but honestly we probably could have figured out alternate solutions even without it. So in retrospect, the skillwires may have been a waste, especially since they weren't cheap.



-k

the hardware seems overpriced. for anyone who wants to spend that much on cyberware, i feel that there are better things to spend the money on. i'm fine with the essence costs.

i do get that it adds versatility, but for the money, i feel there are better ways to invest it. if you don't want to learn to fly a plane, buy a pilot program or hire an NPC rigger as needed.

if you need to slot diving or survival, it seems incredibly unlikely for those skills to be of significant value unless everyone else also has them. heck, it's probably cheaper to buy a drone that can handle those skills for you, *if* you ever even actually need those skills (because really, if you're getting hired for a job, the person hiring you isn't going to hire you unless you could be reasonably expected to succeed; if it is necessary that you be able to fly an airplane, they're not going to hire you unless you can fly an airplane, or unless they can get around it some other way, like providing someone who can pilot an airplane for you).

Beyond those general prep options, it also lets you do some very specific things that nobody else can replicate, like slot the skill to drive the exotic prototype vehicle that the Johnson wants you to steal. But admittedly, at that point skillwires becomes a GM plot device more than a useful tool.

I don't think that it is an min/max build item, and there are other ways I could see spending my money, but having the jack of all trades character is fairly useful.

I never played 4e, but I've played a character in 3e with Skillwires 6, and being able to slot any skill at rating 6 was fairly useful.

Your mileage may vary - I think it is a concept that could be fun to play, but that's me.

I managed, with some rules wrestling, to build an SR3 Troll with 16 Skills with 8 or more dice in these 16 skills each.
That cost me about half my starting ressources. Buying the skillsofts for most every other usefull skill cost the rest.

Under SR4, you could reduce the skillsoft price to 10% list value, if you know how.

Cryptic statement... is cryptic. Care to elaborate?

There was a . . sort of . . exploit in the rules for this . . .
Basically, you got yourself 2 things at character creation.
A Level 4/4 Group Contact Warez Network and a tricked out for SEARCH OPERATIONS Comlink.
Then you use your comlink, search program/agent and the group contact and 3 days in game time.
And because it's obtained through help of your group contact you pay that group contact 10% of the list price for it.

At least, that's how i remember it having been explained to me.

SR3 had the chipjack expert driver, a broken piece of 'ware (which was later nerfed a bit, if I recall correctly). It gave you a task pool equal to its rating, which was especially good for skills that normally didn't have dice pools.

SR4 had move-by-wire, which was essentially improved wired reflexes with skillwires as a free extra.

So if the previous two editions are anything to go by, wait for the SR5 augmentation book to come out, and there should be something nice (and possibly cheesy) for skillwire-lovers. But you only get the bonus if you have wireless enabled.

I think the hardware if fine in cost, its the software that costs way too much. It should be like that matrix scene with the youtube video above where you download programs on the fly. Now that would be a worthwhile wireless bonus, can stream new programs for free.

best you can get at chargen is rating 3.

and since you can't just upgrade it, it doesn't particularly help you on your way to getting those rating 6 skillwires you always wanted either.

so sure, you *could* save up 240,000 nuyen to blow on rating 6 skillwires and skilljack... and still have no software to run on it, mind you...

but, that could also buy you a lot of other really awesome things. heck, if the skills you're considering investing in are based on physical attributes, it's entirely possible you'll gain more from just buying 'ware to increase your attributes in the first place.

i suppose i could potentially see someone shelling out for rating 1 jack and wires. 40k nuyen to avoid the defaulting penalty and being able to use skills even if they're normally not possible untrained might be worth enough to consider, especially if you have high or at least decent attributes across the board. no way is it worth an additional 40k for every +1 to those skills though.

Just for Your Info
The German BBB (= Erratta) says Skilljacks are only 1000 ¥ per Level
Skillwires are still ridiculously expensive though


with a German Dance
Medicineman

1,000 is pretty decent for a price, in my opinion...
Yes, SkillWires are still ridiculous.

I imagine this is what is being discussed...

Cracked Software (Active, Know and Linguasofts included, since they are software) could be purchased for 10% normal cost if you knew where to go.
Having connections in a Cracker Warez VPN is a good thing.
Has nothing to do with the Contacts, per se, but the cost of Cracked Software, which is 10% norm.

The other alternative was to implement Freeware, which were available up to Rating 4, if you used those optional rules, and then all your Skills were essentially free up to Rating 4.... Don't know anyone who did that though.

Me, I preferred the Skillsoft Subscription Service. Pay a monthly Fee (subsumed into lifestyle, but Cost was never detailed) to have access to the skill library of the service (downloadable on demand, for a duration). Much like subscribing to your Matrix Feeds or Movie service. Several such services are described in the back of the relevant book.

Wow, that's, uh, quite the errata. I'll be glad when a formal errata document is released (particularly since I just built a guy with a skilljack).

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Good one...

*wipes away a tear, still chuckling*

oh wait, you were serious...

Oops.....

i don't really get why you need a skill-jack all of a sudden . .
back in SR3, a normal datajack and chipjack combination was enough for use with skillwires.
and in SR4, it all went whhooo wireless! comlink! download! store! use! no jack shit at all!

??
A Skilljack in SR5 is what a Chipjack used to be in SR3 (IIRC)
You need a Skilljack for Knowledge Skills (and Languages) and Skilljack & Skillwire for active Skills

HougH!
Medicineman

In SR3 you needed:
A Chipjack.
And then to use Knowsoft(knowledge skills) a know-soft-connection addon for the chipjack.
And then to use DataSoft(Maps, Text-Files, Images) you needed a built in GPS and Image-System in the eyes.

For Active Soft(Active skills that allow you to do stuff without actually know how anything works) you needed
A Datajack.
Skillwires.
If you wanted to use more than one skill at a time, you needed Skilliwirs with highr Memory Capacity in which to load the active Skills.
Or more than one Datajack. Or implanted Storage which had to be connected to both the datajack and the skillwires via a router technically.
Or you needed a skillsoft jukebox, which acted as a router/several external datajacks into which you would put the skillsoft chips/sticks.

And then you could only ever use one skill at a time and had to spend actions to switch between the skills.
And then there are the odd questions like:
What do i connect the skillsoft jukebox to in my body?
Do i need a Datajack for that?
If i want to control the jukebox via DNI Mod, do i need 2 Datajacks and have it hooked up to both of them or is it a 2 way connection and i only need one?
And the Expert Driver for Skillsoft is a Chipjack Addon, as far as i remember . . so does it work for active soft, which goes into Datajacks?

You are a little off in how they worked in 3e.

Knowsofts can be accessed with a chipjack, or with a knowsoft
link (either piped through a datajack or from headware memory).
A datajack alone cannot access a knowsoft because the data-
jack cannot interpret it as anything more than data.

Datasofts can be accessed with a chipjack, display link or image link (accessing
it from a datajack or headware memory).

A full skillwire system is required to use activesofts. The skillwire system can access
activesofts from a chipjack, datajack or headware memory.

Additional chipjacks or datajacks can accommodate additional
skillsofts. Skillsofts are usually sold encased in 5-centimeter
long cylinders to protect the chip until it is inserted into a jack. All
softs can be downloaded into headware memory through a datajack.

Once the chip is in and the data transferred to headware
memory, the user can remove the chip. If the user doesn’t have
enough headware memory, he or she must keep the chip slotted
to use it. Once downloaded, the resulting program takes up the
amount of space shown on the Skill Memory Table.

So you can see that you can access all softs with either chipjacks or a datajack


Here is the info on the jukebox:

Skillsoft Jukebox: Essentially a portable computer with
numerous ports for slotting skillsofts, the jukebox is connected
via fiber-optic cable to a datajack or chipjack. Through keypad,
voice or mental command (the latter via datajack), the
user can “switch” between skillsofts. Ideal for combat and
other situations when switching skillsofts needs to be quick
and efficient.

The Chipjack Expert Driver works with activesofts, since as per above you can access them through either a chipjack or datajack.

Also, you don't have to spend an action to use different skills, unless your Skillwires didn't have the memory to handle that many. So if you skillwires could handle two rating 6 skills, and you either had them downloaded into storage, or had multiple chipjacks (or a multi-slot chipjack) you could use both without doing anything special. So you could have, let's say, Pistols and Athletics running at the same time and use both freely. If you wanted to use Shotguns, however, you would need to either slot a new chip, switch which jack the skillwires were accessing, or load it into memory, depending on how you had that activesoft.

that sound quite difficult (IIRC you needed a Calculator for the MP necessary to run a Talentsoft)
Its way more easy in SR4A and even in SR5 even though You have to pay a Fortune for Skillwires.
I'm mourning the "destruction" of one dystopian aspect though.
In SR4A I always Imagend hundreds of cheap Labor (Orks & Humans, even Elves) that got a cheap Level 3 Skillwire and and the beginning of their Shift they got the necessary Skills transmitted Via WiFi .
And the end of their Shift they got the Skill erased. So they where kept "Stupid",they didn't need any Training and where forced to work for the Con that provides everything for them
Now in SR5 when You need 63.000 ¥ ( Plus Medical Cost) this is too expensive to make sense (Even if its cheaper for the Con maybe 50 % ?) The Megacons won't never invest 30.000 - 75.000 in one single Worker -Not counting the Price for the Talentsoft itself- let alone into Hundreds of Workers ! So this Metropolis (Fritz Lang Movie 1910 IIRC) Like Mass-waiting-queue of dirty exhaustet lowclass Workers trotting to and from MegaFactories is no more ! Not in SR5 not with this Stupid Rules !
Its a shame that CGL is destroying its own Dystopia .
Which makes me a sad Panda

He who dances like a sad Panda
Medicineman

Choices, Choices...
SR4/A was so much cleaner in that regard.

You know, Germany does not have indigenous Pandas Either... Just sayin'

it's corp in this language.
and SR3 works best with the NSRCG anyways, which has the numbers for the MP cost there already.

I know ist Corp, but I'm Oldschool thats why
I always use the Word Megacon (at least since OCP from Robocop or from Judge Dread)


Not during Carnival than You have Hundreds of indigenous Pandas here especially in Düsseldorf,Cologne and Munich

with an Offtopic (but still sad) Dance
Medicineman

Awesome... If still a bit sad that you do not have Pandas year round.

Naaah, Carnival ain't awesome ! its like Mardi Gras but with less neclasses, less fleshed tits (less ,not none) but more bad Weather much more bad Music and much more drunken Fu**ing
German Carneval (just like the Oktoberfest) is nothing to envy us for
(and Pandas are quite boring If they don't know any Kung Fu....)

HougH!
Medicineman

Wow... There go my dreams of going to a German Carnival...
I DO like Oktoberfest, however (even if I don't drink beer). There is (or at least was) a pretty decent one held every year down in Texas.
Pandas are cute, though. And definitely a lot more exciting when trained in Kung Fu. Far more than those pony/unicorn... things!

Having never played 4e, the interesting shift in pricing from 3e to 5e.

For instance. In order to have a Knowsoft at Rating 6 in 3e, you could have:

A chipjack: 1,000, .2 essence
A Rating 6 Knowsoft: 16,200

in 5e, you need:

A Skilljack Rating 6 120,000, .6 essence
A Rating 6 Knowsoft 12,000

That is a fairly huge jump in price.

For Activesofts, its much weirder.

3e -

A chipjack: 1,000 .2 essence
Skillwires 3, - able to run 1 rating 3 skill at a time: 40,500, .6 essence
Active Soft Rating 3, 2,700

5e

A Skilljack Rating 3, 60,000 .3 essence
A Skillwires Rating 3, 60,000 .3 essence
A Rating 3 Activesoft, 15,000

However, change that to a rating 6 skill,

3e -

A chipjack: 1,000 .2 essence
Skillwires 6, 324,000 able to run 1 rating 6 skill at a time: 1.2 essence
Activesoft Rating 6, 10,800

5e

A Skilljack Rating 6, 120,000 .6 essence
A Skillwires Rating 6, 120,000 .6 essence
Activesoft Rating 6, 30,000

Dramatic difference - and higher than rating 6, well, no one ever had those, because those were 1 million nuyen per rating point.

Edit - I totally spaced, and went back to 2e on the pricing for skillwires. Fixed the pricing now.

So you agree... SR5's Wires and 'Soft's are ludicrous.
Got it...

SR3 Skillwire system Level 8
Essence Cost: 1,6
Nuyen Cost: 768.000
Only had 192MP of Storage capacity though.
Which is, if i am not mistaken, one Level 8 Active Soft Skillsoft.
Like Shooting Guns (
The Problem was that you still did not have enough money left to do anything usefull with it.
Because EACH Level 8 Skillsoft THEN cost ANOTHER 19k Nuyen. . .
And you needed additional Toys to work too. Smartlink, Eye-Ware, Muscle Stuff, Reflexes etc.

in 4A You needed a Datajack 500 ¥ 0.1 E
Skillwires Level 3 for 6.000 ¥ and 0.6 Essence
thats 6500 Plus Medical care .If a Megacon (Corp ) gets a 50% Discount this would result in an investment of 3000-4000
per Worker. ImO perfect for the "Metropolis-like-dystopia"

HokaHey
Medicineman

Yeah...CGL should have bought another game-system. Shadowrun is ruined for my by the new SR5-rules. Synaptic Accelerator 0,5 Essence per Level while the Reflex-Booster costs the double? And price-wise only 30% more for Bioware? Bullshit.

I guess it's another case where one of the freelancers had a grudge with a certain concept and was promptly given free reign to "fix" it.

Just some food for thought: Both Skillwires and TMs got this treatment, so how would the 5th Ed Version of Biowire look like? *shudder*

honestly, i'm fully expecting that in the matrix book, they'll release a ton of ridiculous echoes and such for technomancers as they realize just how bad of an idea it is to make one... and not acknowledge in the slightest that the technomancer itself is not functioning properly.

basically, i'm expecting technomancers will, once the matrix book comes out, suck royally until they get a bunch of submersions, at which point they will still have a complete trash base set of abilities, but will be ridiculously broken overpowered so that they can pretend like they didn't screw it all up.

so, 5e biowires may actually wind up being ridiculously overpowered.

Just a quick personal note,

I still think the idea of Corp using Mass wageslave work force with implanted Skill wires and jacks is viable:) I just figure they are using the same ones they installed in worker 1 that they are now using in worker 65,779.....cost of unit to worker ratio goes down dramatically when "used" is attached to the equipment

cost of unit to worker ratio goes *up* dramatically when it suddenly becomes a worthwhile effort for a bunch of desperate people from the barrens to kidnap all your employees and salvage them for spare parts to the tune of ~120k nuyen worth of hardware (not that they'll get 120k nuyen out of used rating 3 skilljack and wires, but even if they only get 20% of the value that's 24k nuyen; that will let you live like a king (relative to everyone else in the barrens, at any rate) for quite a while.

sure, the corp will take measures to prevent that, but that *also* costs money. plus, every so often someone will succeed anyways. at least when they were only toting around a few thousand nuyen worth of hardware, it wasn't worth the money for anyone who could actually organize a successful run, but honestly, at 24k a pop, i fully expect there are some (very unscrupulous) teams that would do this sort of thing, especially if they're just desperate to get a leg up in the shadows. some Mr J hires a group of above-average gangers, gives them some combat drugs and a few guns, and has next-to-no cost for a chance at getting a whole lot of money just from hijacking a bus.

And the Johnson can let the gangers have a few of the wires and he can have a team that can do EXACTLY what he would like them to do. And if they die, then do it again...

Completely untraceable to the Johnson's corp... check
Fly a helicopter... check
Explosives... check
Heavy Weapons... check
<Insert action to cause terrible chaos to his rival corp>... check

All this was done with the RIVAL's money! The only way it can get better is if God Himself decides to frag the rival.

What if you just swap the prices of the Skillwires and the (errata'd) Skilljack? Then have a "wireless skill broadcast unit" for factories and such that corps use in place of skilljacks but which would not be useful to shadowrunners.

Somehow, I don't think wage slaves skillwires are as sexy as this group thinks. Hot copies of "How to Excel for dummies v9.7" spring to mind.

Considering most hands-on jobs are automated ("you let a person work on your car?!") skillwires are probably largely irrelevant for corporate drones. All they really need is a knowsoft that tells them which buttons to press.

the skillwires can run a variety of skills. the fact that the wageslaves are running useless skillsofts (or at least, useless to the average shadowrunner) is beside the point.

IMO Skilljacks are still a decent deal - you can start with Alpha rating 6 if you really want, but it's probably better to get rating 6 used since the essence is so inexpensive. Knowsofts and Linguasofts are very cheap and unless I'm reading incorrectly, at level 6 you can have 18 concurrent rating 6 know/lingua softs active at a time.

I guess it depends on how frequently your table uses knowledge and language skills, but for some concepts it may be a decent option. The fact that you can't use Edge sucks, but how often will that come up with a non-active skill?

I think an Alpha Skilljack 6 would be outside of availability rules for CharGen. The basic set is 12 at rating 6.

You're right, my bad.

You are reading incorrectly; you can have skills running with a total combined rating of 18, that is, 3 rating 6 'softs (or more at a lower rating of course).