I think if you want to be very hardcore and invested in firearms specifically, Phoenix Command is kind of like the old holy grail. But it's really hard to get those books. I had to buy them used on the internet...Drivethru RPG doesn't even have it.

Even then I felt there were at least some tweaks that needed to be done honestly to portray evolving tactics. Like in Phoenix command it wasn't possible to shoot while walking in a professional manner; you were considered to be firing from an unready position. I know that older or more traditional curriculums didn't necessarily cover that. But today shooting while walking is part of the general curriculum. You're still not accurate at range but if you do it right you're a lot more accurate at closer ranges than if you're firing from the hip or an "unready position". Someone who is good at it can still hit a plate at 30 to 50 feet like a magician, ding ding ding with each step.

Basically it's too bad that that RPG isn't widely available, since if there were a dedicated team of rules enthusiasts I think that system would really benefit from an overhaul to represent modern CQB tactics.

I'm in awe of that system though for all the stuff they thought of in the context of the time that was written which was before the day of realistic video games. All the stuff like changing posture taking time, firing from the hip versus firing in posture, that was all implemented in Phoenix Command. Even the to-hit rolls were divided into a windage and elevation calculation section to determine where the round hit.

Also, to go with thread title: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEFrvBSk5kw

INFIDEL! *starts grabbing pitches and forks to trash Umidori's home*

GURPS isn't bad. It's just the Linux of tabletop systems - great in theory, but somehow doesn't quite hit the mark.

That said, there are way worse systems out there. I still have nightmares about the last few games of Earthdawn my table played, back when we still had foolish delusions that it would be totally sweet once we just "learned the system". But we finally realized the terrible truth.

~Umi

Gurps simply has too much detail, and combat is too damn detailed, and making a character can take forever. As to Linux, well lets just say I left the Windows/Mac Verse five years ago and have not looked back. I can do everything in Linux with software that performs well or as well as either of those OS's and its free and secure. Zero crashes in five years, zero viruses, zero dollars spent. I think it hits the mark.

Earthdawn is sweet once you learn the system Definitely in my top 5 games.

I'd say combat is fine, sure, combat can be slow, because your turns are usually like this:

turn 1- run to get cover
turn 2- aim
turn 3- shoot

When most systems you can do the same in a single turn, but I believe that the bell curve of skills and way damage is handled still make it worth the while.
Then again, most of my friends run away from GURPS, saying they are not manly enough to learn the systems, they are just kids... (cue to SpongeBob and "I'm a Goofy Goober" song).

GURPS: Spongebob Squarepants

You are aware of the irony of posting that on a thread where there's been post after post demanding more detailed firearm rules and more detailed combat?

I certainly do see the irony, however you will also notice that I am not one of those suggesting we do need more detail in SR for firearms. If there is going to be more detail I would prefer it was based on the real thing, rather than firearm stats and rules pulled out of the ether as has been done in the past.

The nightmarish product of a second by second battle. You start at 100 yds apart, it will now take the rest of the night before you engage in HTH combat.

Thanks man! I'll keep you in mind!

I honestly didn't find the system too cumbersome. Obviously just me.

Truthfully I used to really enjoy GURPS, unfortunately the latest edition tries to roll in way too much stuff from a wide variety of sourcebooks in the core books. Too many options can be a pain, and I really found the core books pretty cumbersome to use because of the layout. Basically too much. I enjpyed it back during the 2nd edition days, but never really liked the roll under mechanic.

For the record, I have not "asked for more detail". I have instead simply asked, "Can a person even a niggling idea of how firearms work please write this stuff instead?"

Some of the writers do have knowledge, if largely theoretical, of the subject - I'd bet, actually, that among the many versions that were considered there were more reality-based versions for the machine gun rules, which may have been rejected for various reasons. Rules being based more on reality does not equate to rules being better when dealing with a game (as opposed to a simulation).

It really does drop the ball on sinulating the reality of machine guns though

We burnt out after a handful of the premade adventures, because we simply didn't have the player stamina for combat. The story stuff would fly by, everyone was totally into the lore and setting and their characters, and then we'd get bogged down in hours of scripted combat sequences wherein the things we expected to be lethal weren't and the things we expected to be pushovers wiped entire parties.

Maybe the premade adventures just suck, I dunno. But combat was a total slog, taking ages to get even just simple fights done. We'd go a half dozen turns without anyone on either side getting hit, then a chance attack roll would result in just obliterating something, then we'd be back into a stalemate of eternal dodging, then one of the PCs would get swatted down by a lucky roll that took them from full to almost dead, then the others would scramble to try and help, then more dodging...

~Umi

Most of the premade adventures billed as Beginner Adventures were a little too hard for starting characters, but part of this I also think is the ideal number of player 4-6 really meaning 6 if you want it to go well, 4 if you want to run in terror as your ass gets kicked. Earthdawn can promote a run first engage later play style. Running away to plan another way is usually a healthy response in the setting. Also looting everything you possibly can, and getting as many blood charms, and healing aids as possible was a virtual mini game for starting adventurers running premade adventures. The surprising strike was actually for my group a feature. Nothing like having a perfect day turn to shit, of course they loved it when it worked in their favor. I can say I rarely had the back and forth go on for an extended period unless the sides were very evenly matched.

Yeah it certainly does drop that ball

I know, and that's why it SUCKS! The system is so stupid, with no good MGs in the entire thing.
Scratch that, there are no MGs in the entire thing! WTF!?!?

Well, for most settings, you either start the fight next to each other (around 10 yards) or from very far range that you will only use ranged weapons.

Maybe if you are in a plot vacuum. If the opposing force has to get through you, but does not sufficiently outnumber you they will in fact try to use ranged attacks until they are in range of hand to hand options. Most commonly in fantasy games.

I mean, in modern settings, unless the fight breaks up in a room or set of rooms, than you may have mobility to reach melee combat. But most often than not, you will just go for cover and trade shots with the opposition.
In fantasy settings, well, most people will go for melee except the ones carrying bows and crossbows, these ones will be handled usually like this: "the opposition is about X-ish yards, you will have about Y shots before they can actually swing an axe on you" If they are on horse, then you better be a damn good archer to kill the rider before he tramples you with the horse.

Be cool, it was an honest typo. He meant 'Windows 8'.

I was mostly referring to Fantasy settings, and I have seen way too many closing archery duels. Pain in the but when you are going second to second, throw in magic and it gets even messier.

I will be cool