Been reading and re-reading the section on true drakes in Clutch Of Dragons, and still trying to figure something out. What does the true drake get for the extra 60 BP spent for the quality that the drake does not? I have tried searching around here, but it does not look like this question has been asked before.

I've managed to come up with a few ideas, but I am curious to what others here think about the points difference.

First they have 8 essence and a max edge of 8 regardless of metatype. The 8 essence may mean max magic of 8 + ini grade depending on interpretation. Plus you can either swap out powers a drake has for new ones or add the new ones for more BP.

Aside from the obvious, anything else? Figuring as if a true drake already has the Lucky quality, is 2 points of Essence worth 40 BP?

it can be, especially if it gives more magic. If it doesn't, less worth it. It is also easy access to decent hardened armor and regeneration.

Ok first for humans it is like the lucky quality everyone else is double lucky. Second you can SWAP your powers. So 4 hardened armour becomes 6, 4 astral armour becomes 6, pick up regeneration instead of claws etc.

I do not remember all of it but i think, true drakes have all their powers also in humanform? Can anyone confirm, since i do not have access to the sources at the moment.

They don't, just have the different/additional powers and extra edge + essence.

Egads. 60 additional BP? That pushes "drake" into neigh-unplayable territory.
Two extra armor is OK but not great and definitely not worth 40 BP. The extra essence will almost never come up, you won't have enough BP left to raise your magic that high.

Forget that and just be an elf instead. Much better expenditure of points.

Don't have my copy on me right now but I'm pretty sure it is up to 60bp not 60bp, with each extra power costing a portion of the BP that leads to the 60

Still probably not worth the investment.

Plain Vanilla Drake costs 65 BP

True Drake with sprinkles on top costs 125BP , so yeah another 60 BP to get more options and call yourself 'True', with the option to swap their current powers for items from the added list OR keep all the basic package plus buy up to all 5 added powers at 5BP each, giving a cost range between 125 and 150 BP

So it is a bit more expensive indeed.

But you have to figure you are probably going to take a Hunted or Enemy of whatever dragon you got out from under, plus a few other quirks/problems to make it all look pretty.

Base drake is already strapped for BP. I found one archetype that can actually make the drake's advantages an advantage and there's only about 20 BP floating to customize.

The only reason it works:
1) Orriental drake (you have HANDS motherfucker, this quality outweighs any other drake-type feature (as a bonus your dracoform attribute bonuses are on top of your otherwise natural stats))
2) Elf (for the low-cost attribute bonuses, especially for AGL and CHA)
3) Already capped out on qualities (obviously they're flexible, but you use up all 35 points of negatives and probably go light on the positives)
4) Charisma caster (you have all the CHA because Elf)
5) Mystic Adept (more flexible with spell/powers, e.g. picking up Improved Reflexes as a spell)
6) Absolutely no cyber or bio. It only works in (meta)human form.

Might be interesting to see what I can come up with - May give it some thought here soon. Not that I will be allowed to play it, but an interesting exercise none the less.

That's kind of what the character I built was. I used it in a game, but not all of the potential came out. Which was fine.

Also don't forget to buy Exotic Weapon (your own firebreath), Unarmed (Claws), and Fly.

And thus the Sons of Feng were born......

Troll Western Drake Adept is viable also. In fact, it's a little scary.

So is anything built for melee at melee ranges.

At longarms range? Not scary.

The Troll Drake Adept was built for damage soaking, so he ended up having 11/11 armor (maybe a point or two more) with decent Body. He could survive some shots.

Well, more durable than the vampire melee monster I saw once. Thought he was invulnerable because of regeneration.

Got hit with a shotgun, went into overflow, and barely avoided dying.

Everyone flips out about Regeneration, but my table has always been quite capable of taking out critters that sport it.

It's only really powerful in a drawn out fight in which you can't manage to deal more than a few boxes of damage to the enemy each turn. Land a good solid blow or two, though...

~Umi

Were true drakes even listed in anything prior to SR4? So far the only thing I can figure to explain the points cost would be to have the true drake's abilities functioning in both forms, even though that's not per RAW.

I think true drakes were introduced earlier, though not statted...Dragons of the 6th World, probably

Hence why we told him he was crazy and he tried it anyway.

No surprise he swapped characters again the next session.



There were stats for them too.

I don't recall offhand, but True were priority A and regular were B. Something like that. It's been too long since I read it and I've misplaced my pdf.

My Nosferatu was crazy-dangerous with Regen. Body 4, something like 10/9 or 11/10 armor, and a very high Magic rating meant that I could not only soak big hits but I could also regen the damage quickly. Reaction of like 5 with some hits on a Combat Sense meant he was a pain to land a big hit on too.

You just need to build better when you have access to Regen to take full advantage of it.

The problem is that it's once per combat round not initiative pass. Even if you have 12 dice and can regen ~4 boxes a round, your opponents still have 2-3 passes in which to deal that damage.

But yes. It can be quite powerful. It just wasn't as powerful as our player had initially thought.

Oddly enough I've got a new copy of Dragons Of The Sixth World (store was giving away their SR3 books for the release of SR5) and found some details about drakes in it. Unfortunately what's presented seems just as muddled as the section on true drakes is just as short as in Clutch Of Dragons, while bred drakes get more detailing.

Was there ever a edition where, from a power point of view, Drakes were "worth" the investment (excluding some highly specialized minmaxed builds)?

And a small hijack, is it mentioned anywhere if True Drakes are created from scratch (clay, spirit, etc.) or if they start out as a human which is empowered by a draconic ritual?

That's why you marry Regen and Armor, or Armor and Evasion. If you don't get hit often you don't have to soak as much, and when you have enough Bod + Armor you don't take as much, so your Regen doesn't need to cope as much.

It really isn't that difficult to get - like I said, you just need to be more clever.

Given that they only exist in 3 and 4, as far as I am aware...

Dragons Of The Sixth World states that the original drakes were created from nothing, and required considerable time and effort. Later it was found how to make drakes that could breed, but they were less powerful.

Drakes were introduced in 2nd and 3rd Ed in the following steps:

1. Ryan Mercury as protagonist in the Dragonheart trilogy during the 2nd Edition story arc of Super Tuesday and the events surrounding Dunkelzahn's Death. It was never clearly stated whether he was a bred Drake or a true one (with some form of amnesia) that had been created by Dunkelzahn himself but it's more likely that he is a bred one that just came under the protection of Dunkelzahn, because he initially was unaware of his being a Drake.
2. Mentioning of a witnessed (bred) Drake transformation in the Shadowtalk comments in the SURGE section of the 3rd Ed. Year of the Comet sourcebook
3. More details on the background of (bred) Drakes, first transformation experiences, initial research results and NPC stats for (bred) in 3rd Ed sourcebook Threats II. The stats there varied from standard critter notation in the following way: Instead of providing exact numbers that were based on an "average" human (bred) Drake Threats II gave numbers like "N+mod" where N was the attribute value in human form. Back then there was no suggestion that they could also have metahuman bodies.
4. A sort of recap of the Threats II info concerning Drakes in Dragons of the Sixth World (also 3rd Ed.). This book additionally made the first reference to True Drakes vs. Bred Drakes and gave NPC stats for both versions (this time in standard "critter" notation with just fixed numbers for an average [human] Drake). On top of that DotSW provided a small paragraph with not too well fleshed out rules on introducing bred Drakes as player characters. No True Drakes in player's hands back then

Potentially bred Drakes of 3rd Edition. Going by the basic rules in Dragons of the Sixth World (in combination with the info from Threats II that described [bred] Drake racial mods far better than DotSW) you could get a form of shapeshifter that wasn't as gimped as normal PC shapeshifters.



Excerpt from DotSW:

"True Drakes are magically created beings. The great dragons create drakes using secret rituals known only to them." and one of their innate powers is "Metahuman Form"=> No starting out as human. They are in fact (infertile) "mini-dragons" that can transform into humans, whereas the bred drakes are hybrid beings with (meta-)human plus mini-dragon genetics that can reproduce (details on how they came into existance you'd only get from Earthdawn material) and are born in (meta-)human form.

Regarding Ryan Mercury, considering a remark Frosty has on COD on page 35, it would suggest that he's a bred drake. Assuming that she's not lying, that is.

But on the subject of true drakes, what would be everyone's consensus about true drakes having their powers accessible in both forms?

I would suggest both forms as while drakes only have their powers in drake form they can accept augmentations which work in their humanoid form. Also true drakes are like shifters in that they are dragons who can shapeshift in to people not the other way around like drakes and shifters get their powers in both forms.

edit: you are also paying a 1/3 of your BP on it.

The whole "they can take augmentations thing" is not really an option: you have a magic attribute. If you aren't a mage or adept, as soon as you augment you can't shapeshift to your dracoform.

Even without an awakened quality, a drake can still buy up their Magic attribute (RC, page 75). They're not as gimped as a Spell/Spirit Knack or someone with the Astral Sight quality.

@Shortstraw: Same basis I was thinking on when I suggested it.

Point for point, you may as well buy mage or adept at that point. Adept powers and spells will work in both forms, whereas cyber would only work in one.

(Another advantage of eastern drakes: with hands you can pickup Sign Language as a language skill and communicate! Mind Net is also a viable option, and probably better, although would require sustaining.)

or spend the 5 BP and dragonspeech which trumps all that for communicating

or spend the 5 BP and dragonspeech which trumps all that for communicating

plus if you see a dragon doing funny things with its front claws you probably don't think, hey he's signing! but rather oh crap he's casting.

So, any bets on how drakes will turn out in 5E?
OP, balanced or UP?

The 5 BP option is available for true drakes only at character creation. Both have the option to pick it up as a metamagic later, which if it's the first initiation with a group and a task works out to 4 BP worth of karma.

Plus 5 Karma to join the group.

EDIT: Wait.. how does 13 x 0.6 = 4? It's 8 karma for your first Initiation with a task and group, plus the 5 BP to join makes 13.

1 BP = 2 karma.

And as far as I understood group initiation, it wasn't mandatory to be a member of a magical association. Just find enough members of the same tradition to partake in the initiation with you.

pg 54 way back in 2nd ed grimoire mentioned to qualify as a group, said group has to have the astral contract. This enhanced link is what gives the bonus, so it's more than just a few guys of a similar tradition getting together, they share a bond.

SR4 covers the same on pg 50 in Street Magic. Again you have to join a magical group to get the group benefit for initiation.

Granted many groups are formed along tradition lines, but not always....

Plus some mages just do not play well with others and never join these sort of groups.

Well then, more power to the already OP technomancers then, who not only don't have to pay karma to join the equivalent network, but can also make temporary parties for a group initiation. No wonder the second generation of the children of the matrix have been kneecapped.

Missed the BP.

Also, go back to Street Magic, page 69, Joining A Group, first paragraph, fourth sentence:

Yeah, your first initiation is a wash in terms of karma if you do it with a group. You save 20% or whatever (works out to 5) and then spend 5 to join the group so you CAN do a group initiation.

It's worth it though, as your second initiation is instantly cheaper and you already paid the 5 to join a group.

It only seems weird so long as you look at them as just being another form of magic, ala digital mojo. Yes many of the mechanics do look alike, but again that is more for ease of gameplay and how to abstract how they work.

TM are sort of built to mesh together, whereas mages are a prickly lot even within the same traditions. So their being able to hook into and drop out of groups really is not so odd.

Am working on a tale about this a bit under a possible title of 'Sing a Song of Resonance' though this is still very rough and in the early draft stage....

Well, in SR4 TMs & mages are that different. In SR5 TMs come off as nothing but lower quality matrix magicians. It wouldn't surprise me that in the matrix splat book that comes out that TMs will be required to pay extra karma to join a group; something to help cut down how OP they are.

We just have to wait and see what the matrix splat does. Maybe while not as powerful as before, they may get more versatility in other ways.

It is the hard part, because we know what previous editions did, so we expect certain things, but new edition is reboot so anything is possible.