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FuelDrop
So, been thinking.

A sniper and spotter 2-man team is not unheard of. So I'm thinking, how would that translate into Shadowrun mechanics?

My first thought was a teamwork test, with the spotter using perception to buff the sniper's longarms skill. Would this work? If so, would a spotter drone with a decent clearsight program do the same job in a pinch?

My second thought was a leadership teamwork test, but the implication that all spotters are born leaders doesn't really work either (Apologies to any actual snipers or spotters that frequent the boards. I really don't need any sharpshooters with a grudge against me!)

Having the spotter use longarms doesn't really seem to make that much sense either.

Thoughts, opinions, rants about how little I know about real weapons and tactics?
Uli
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jun 7 2014, 08:59 AM) *
My first thought was a teamwork test, with the spotter using perception to buff the sniper's longarms skill. Would this work? If so, would a spotter drone with a decent clearsight program do the same job in a pinch?


That was my first thought, too. However, I don't think that a drone would suffice. I think there is a little bit of leadership involved, specific aim-oriented communication from the spotter. Rules-wise, I'd stay with a teamwork test using perception. Drones just cannot do it.


Note: I don't know jack about murdering people in teams with rifles. wink.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Uli @ Jun 7 2014, 03:31 PM) *
Note: I don't know jack about murdering people in teams with rifles. wink.gif

Isn't 'Murdering people in teams with rifles' quite a common playstyle for Shadowrun?
Shemhazai
I'm leaning toward Longarms + Intuition. My rationale is that the longarms skill encompasses more than marksmanship, and knowing what the shooter needs to know about the target would be very helpful.

Maybe spotting could be a specialization for that skill.
Uli
I like that idea best so far.

@FuelDrop: Common for SR but not for me. biggrin.gif
Jaid
i always understood the primary role of the spotter to be "hey make sure nobody is walking up right behind me while i focus all of my attention on an area 10 feet across and half a mile away". that is, their job is to spot the area nearby, not tell the sniper how to shoot people.

do spotters actually make a sniper more accurate?
psychophipps
Spotters, usually found only in sniper teams that are a part of conventional forces, provide extra security and assist as a double-check of range, windage, etc calculations. They can be very helpful as an extra set of eyes looking for targets as well.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 7 2014, 01:33 PM) *
i always understood the primary role of the spotter to be "hey make sure nobody is walking up right behind me while i focus all of my attention on an area 10 feet across and half a mile away". that is, their job is to spot the area nearby, not tell the sniper how to shoot people.

do spotters actually make a sniper more accurate?


I think that's a secondary role, what you're describing. Read "The Ultimate Sniper" by John Plaster.

The sniper can't necessarily see if he hit his target or not. So the spotter confirms hits, or in the event of a miss reports exactly where the round landed in relation to the target so that adjustments can be made.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jun 7 2014, 02:59 AM) *
A sniper and spotter 2-man team is not unheard of.


Is standard practice. My advice is to read "The Ultimate Sniper" by John Plaster.

EDIT: It is both a technical guide but also a very entertaining read with cool anecdotes from 'Nam and 70s style hand drawn cartoon riflemen. It is one of the coolest books to ever exist and is absolutely worth a read.
Glyph
A spotter would still be useful, but a lot of the calculations in Shadowrun could be done by the smartlink now.
Curator
wouldn't something be able to 'paint' a target with a laser or something electronic that a smartgun would be able to aim for? i know thats what they do for missiles
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 7 2014, 10:47 PM) *
A spotter would still be useful, but a lot of the calculations in Shadowrun could be done by the smartlink now.


I suppose it's one of the backup skills you could have for in case your tech fails. A spotter with a pair of binoculars is EMP-proof, as long as he doesn't have cyberware I guess.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 8 2014, 12:10 PM) *
I suppose it's one of the backup skills you could have for in case your tech fails. A spotter with a pair of binoculars is EMP-proof, as long as he doesn't have cyberware I guess.

Also hacker resistant, if you go low-tech with your binoculars and use, you know, lenses that focus light into your eyes instead of computer enhanced imaging.
Wounded Ronin
I suppose you could argue that insofar snipers are supposed to maximize stealth, some of the stealthiest might opt to go low tech and not use any electronics, in order to reduce their electronic signature.
Jaid
QUOTE (Curator @ Jun 7 2014, 10:49 PM) *
wouldn't something be able to 'paint' a target with a laser or something electronic that a smartgun would be able to aim for? i know thats what they do for missiles


missiles can correct their course to home in on the reflected light.

while i wouldn't be *too* surprised if there was a bullet that could do the same by 2070, i don't think it's the standard by any means (in fact, i don't recall ever seeing one in any sourcebook. truth be told, 4th edition missiles were actually so inaccurate, i'm not sure i'd want to use whatever shoddy tech they were using to guide those things anyways... but 5th edition missiles are pretty accurate at least).

then again, if there was such a bullet, i feel like the sniper could just keep painting the target anyways. i mean, they've already got the laser sight.

(as to stealth, courtesy of the way 2070 wireless technology works - or doesn't work, depending on how you look at it - the sniper only has to worry about EM signals if he's within 100 meters)
DWC
In most cases, the spotter is actually the more experienced of the pair. The spotter is responsible for visually determining range, wind, elevation changes, air temperature gradients, and figuring out all the stuff the shooter needs to dial his scope in. The shooter's job is largely to follow directions, keep his crosshairs on target, and have a very smooth trigger squeeze. The rules for using Leadership to improve the marksmanship of another shooter were really the sole redeeming quality of War! and I really do hope we get something similar.

How's this for an idea? The spotter makes a Longarms + Intuition test against his or her Mental Limit. Every hit negates a penalty die against the shooter. It stops the shooter from being better than they would otherwise be, but allows a really good spotter to turn a tough shot into a much simpler one.
psychophipps
an someone hook me up with a link to this "War!" thing. My goggle-fu is apparently weak sauce.
Sendaz
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/86596/Shadowrun-War
?

or did you mean something else?
psychophipps
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 9 2014, 07:16 PM) *


Depends. Is that book what everyone keeps alluding to in their posts?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 9 2014, 05:37 PM) *
Depends. Is that book what everyone keeps alluding to in their posts?


That's the one. Many do not like the book at all. Me, I have no real issues with it, though the fluff can be a bit out there in this book. Some of the Crunch needs a little work too.
Jaid
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 9 2014, 07:37 PM) *
Depends. Is that book what everyone keeps alluding to in their posts?


probably.

but you should be warned that it isn't exactly the most popular shadowrun book ever written. in fact, i think it may be the least well-received SR book ever written. consider the size of the book, then consider that someone noted the rules on sniping are the only redeeming feature... and nobody else stepped in to argue.

seriously, look at some reviews before you buy it and decide if you want to spend the money. most people i've seen say anything about it have actively disliked basically everything about that book. if you want to buy it, then buy it, but first you should educate yourself on the matter so you have a better idea of whether you actually want to buy it, or just think that you do nyahnyah.gif
psychophipps
Thanks for the heads up, Jaid. I have a pretty good idea of the score with CGL books. I have yet to pick up a copy of a single CGL-only SR product. The WizKids stuff, or the stuff they did most of the work on, was pretty good so my SR4 collection is limited to the first batch of books, Unwired, Street Magic, Augmentation, Companion, and Arsenal. To be honest, I don't see a single reason why I would need more than these considering how I run my games.
Jaid
running wild has lots of critters, and it's pretty hard to screw up a critter book?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 9 2014, 07:37 PM) *
Depends. Is that book what everyone keeps alluding to in their posts?


I dunno, I'm alluding to The Ultimate Sniper by John Plaster.

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Sniper-Majo...ultimate+sniper

Wow, you can even get it as an ebook now!
Critias
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 10 2014, 05:01 AM) *
I dunno, I'm alluding to The Ultimate Sniper by John Plaster.

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Sniper-Majo...ultimate+sniper

Wow, you can even get it as an ebook now!

Sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Can you tell us about it four times, maybe? biggrin.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 10 2014, 05:05 AM) *
Sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Can you tell us about it four times, maybe? biggrin.gif


It's Psycho's fault, he wasn't specific when he said "everyone". XD
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 9 2014, 07:58 PM) *
probably.

but you should be warned that it isn't exactly the most popular shadowrun book ever written. in fact, i think it may be the least well-received SR book ever written. consider the size of the book, then consider that someone noted the rules on sniping are the only redeeming feature... and nobody else stepped in to argue.

seriously, look at some reviews before you buy it and decide if you want to spend the money. most people i've seen say anything about it have actively disliked basically everything about that book. if you want to buy it, then buy it, but first you should educate yourself on the matter so you have a better idea of whether you actually want to buy it, or just think that you do nyahnyah.gif


War! Huuh! Yeah!

What is it good for?
Uli
Rules for Thor shots.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Battle Rifles...
Leadership Rules...
Mercenary Organizations...
Global Hotspots...
Lots of New Gear of all types...
Additional Grimoire (Except the Slow spell needs work)...
Etc.

Don't let other's hatred for the book dissuade you from looking at it and taking what you like from it.
DMiller
QUOTE (Uli @ Jun 10 2014, 10:39 PM) *
Rules for Thor shots.

Which are horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly inaccurate. If one could actually get something with the mass that those should have into space, dropping onto the planet at anything close to terminal velocity would destroy a whole continent not just a few blocks of a city.

I ran the numbers shortly after War! came out, it's in a thread somewhere around here.
Sendaz
QUOTE (DMiller @ Jun 10 2014, 08:11 PM) *
I ran the numbers shortly after War! came out, it's in a thread somewhere around here.

Thor Maths by DMiller
or
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Thor
Glyph
War! is the book that has you dungeon-crawling through Auschwitz fighting the ghosts of concentration camp victims to get nazi artifacts. So based on that alone, I would rank it somewhere below F.A.T.A.L.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 10 2014, 08:34 PM) *
War! is the book that has you dungeon-crawling through Auschwitz fighting the ghosts of concentration camp victims to get nazi artifacts. So based on that alone, I would rank it somewhere below F.A.T.A.L.


Well, duh! FATAL is far more historically accurate... rotfl.gif
Uli
Wow, I overlooked that fluff-part when digging through the crunch. frown.gif Some events should not be included in fiction, especially in such a way.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DMiller @ Jun 10 2014, 05:11 PM) *
Which are horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly, horribly inaccurate. If one could actually get something with the mass that those should have into space, dropping onto the planet at anything close to terminal velocity would destroy a whole continent not just a few blocks of a city.

I ran the numbers shortly after War! came out, it's in a thread somewhere around here.


Your assumption is based on what you think they should have as Mass (based upon your comment above), though, so... *shrug* smile.gif
I have seen other calculations that differ from yours.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 11 2014, 03:26 PM) *
Your assumption is based on what you think they should have as Mass (based upon your comment above), though, so... *shrug* smile.gif
I have seen other calculations that differ from yours.

Uh huh, so where exactly do you see the room for other calculations? In other definitions of what a "meter" is, or in alternate tungsten?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 11 2014, 11:48 AM) *
Uh huh, so where exactly do you see the room for other calculations? In other definitions of what a "meter" is, or in alternate tungsten?


The calculations differ in Output of explosive potential. Besides, the game makes them mostly survivable with a limited radius. This is a game where people often casually (saw it happen twice in the same scenario) bounce the explosive potential of Claymore Mines off their chest from a range of 5 feet, after all. smile.gif *shrug*
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 11 2014, 09:53 PM) *
The calculations differ in Output of explosive potential. Besides, the game makes them mostly survivable with a limited radius. This is a game where people often casually (saw it happen twice in the same scenario) bounce the explosive potential of Claymore Mines off their chest from a range of 5 feet, after all. smile.gif *shrug*

You were talking about mass, and that is very much a cut-and-dry case. Terminal velocity is more complicated, admittedly.
DMiller
Sorry to continue the derail. My initial calculations of the mass are off (I think I used the diameter not the radius in the calculations, that's what I get for writing on a napkin smile.gif ). The correct mass should be 45,356.7 Kg which is still really heavy and hard to get to space. A mass of 45 metric tons per missile times 4 missiles per satellite is a lot of weight to get into space. The adjusted weight does bring down the destructive force considerably as well. The are well within the limits of a tactical weapon at that mass. The speed of impact will help adjust the damage potential. The larger ones moving a just over terminal velocity (they are launched after all) will hit with the force of about a 1 kiloton bomb.

edit: My math if interested
CaptRory
If you already have space infrastructure, you could just build them in orbit or even outside of Earth's orbit. Not having to pay the cost to lift them into orbit would more than offset the reduced efficiency of using a huge chunk of Nickel Iron from an asteroid instead of a tungsten rod. If you have the accuracy, it could be accelerating all the way to earth instead of more or less dropping it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DMiller @ Jun 11 2014, 08:42 PM) *
Sorry to continue the derail. My initial calculations of the mass are off (I think I used the diameter not the radius in the calculations, that's what I get for writing on a napkin smile.gif ). The correct mass should be 45,356.7 Kg which is still really heavy and hard to get to space. A mass of 45 metric tons per missile times 4 missiles per satellite is a lot of weight to get into space. The adjusted weight does bring down the destructive force considerably as well. The are well within the limits of a tactical weapon at that mass. The speed of impact will help adjust the damage potential. The larger ones moving a just over terminal velocity (they are launched after all) will hit with the force of about a 1 kiloton bomb.

edit: My math if interested


What I thought (and had read other places)... Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (CaptRory @ Jun 11 2014, 10:38 PM) *
If you already have space infrastructure, you could just build them in orbit or even outside of Earth's orbit. Not having to pay the cost to lift them into orbit would more than offset the reduced efficiency of using a huge chunk of Nickel Iron from an asteroid instead of a tungsten rod. If you have the accuracy, it could be accelerating all the way to earth instead of more or less dropping it.


building them in space doesn't eliminate the need to get all the materials up there. unless you're mining on the moon or something like that (you could theoretically get the resources from mars or the asteroid belt as well, both of which would have dramatically lower fuel expenditure for getting stuff into space, but both of which are also really, really far away and it could take quite a substantial amount of time to get the materials into orbit so you can build something with it).

of course, getting the materials from the moon or mars or the asteroid belt would require that there be mining going on there, which i don't recall being mentioned anywhere.
CaptRory
Well, to sustain a significant space presence you'd need to be harvesting things from, you know, space. You couldn't lift enough material to keep a colony going without them being at least partially self sufficient. The flip side is that the only reason to establish a significant space presence is to start harvesting resources and constructing things in space to avoid the energy penalty of building things in the gravity well and boosting it. Research would be the only other reason and you might as well tack a research installation onto an industrial colony.

So! To make a Rod From God system as practical as a cruise missile, I think you'd need at least rudimentary space manufacturing and harvesting. A chunk of Nickel Iron with engines could replicate the Tunguska Blast over any city on the planet. Dial it down and you can get tactical solutions. All non-nuclear for easy cleanup. With better engine technology, which means faster missiles, you could get the same energy with smaller projectiles.

I'm still reading through material, I have seen references to space stuff but haven't run into a book on space or anything from the Shadowrun setting.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Curator @ Jun 7 2014, 08:49 PM) *
wouldn't something be able to 'paint' a target with a laser or something electronic that a smartgun would be able to aim for? i know thats what they do for missiles


I don't know why everyone's making a fuss over houseruling this.

Tacnets can do this by default. Indirect fire, unwired 126, which points to arsenal 162. Normally this is for big guns like artillery, but smartguns can be the recipient of a spotter. Like long-ranged snipers! Yay!

Spotter waves smartlink at target, makes standard ranged attack roll, net hits become a dice pool bonus to the shooter.


Since its entirely possible to do something similar without a tacnet, the old fashioned way, I'd pattern a skill test after this basic formula.

fistandantilus4.0
The kestrel-type devices shooters use today can already do a lot of the work that a smartgun can do. You can plug in the range adjustments for your particular weapon prior, let the device measure conditions, and let it spit out a firing solution for you. That would be even easier in SR, where you wouldn't have to take your hands off the weapon to do it, which is a huge advantage to your spotter calculating adjustments for you. Also, having drones along the bullets trajectory to measure cross winds = awesome.

That being said, DWC had it right that the spotter is typically the more experienced of the two, and can do more than a drone could. They add expertise and experience. The shooter just pulls the trigger. It's probably possible to coordinate that through tacnet. Then it's just a debate between whether it's the same as having a guy there next to you. Speaker's Way Spotter would be handy.
psychophipps
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Jun 20 2014, 04:17 PM) *
The kestrel-type devices shooters use today can already do a lot of the work that a smartgun can do. You can plug in the range adjustments for your particular weapon prior, let the device measure conditions, and let it spit out a firing solution for you. That would be even easier in SR, where you wouldn't have to take your hands off the weapon to do it, which is a huge advantage to your spotter calculating adjustments for you. Also, having drones along the bullets trajectory to measure cross winds = awesome.

That being said, DWC had it right that the spotter is typically the more experienced of the two, and can do more than a drone could. They add expertise and experience. The shooter just pulls the trigger. It's probably possible to coordinate that through tacnet. Then it's just a debate between whether it's the same as having a guy there next to you. Speaker's Way Spotter would be handy.


Also keep in mind that spotters typically exist only in the realm of conventional forces. Special Operations forces usually don't have the manpower in their unit structures to lose a shooter for a spotter. In fact, most Special Operations soldiers that operate as Snipers have gone through a quick n' dirty sniper program (they already know how to stalk, use camouflage, set up hides, etc) and are specifically trained to be able to track their own shots while still being able to operate as their own spotter. Of course, the Special Operations sniper per-shot accuracy doesn't tend to be as good as some designated snipers from conventional forces because of the lack of specialization and less available job-specific training time.
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