Dumpshock Forums > A job too evil for runners?

bannockburn

Jun 14 2014, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 13 2014, 02:08 PM)

I don't see it as being about 'good' per se. It's about being true to your own set of ethics, which is much more important when it comes to building a reliable reputation that will get you hired. Becoming known as a psychopath who'll kill anyone for the right price and is indiscriminate about bystander casualties will get you runs, but generally the sort where Mr. J doesn't much care if you survive to get paid. It makes you disposable, and as much a threat to your employers as to their targets.

This is part of what I wanted to say with the oneliner, yes.
People with a specialization that simply doesn't lend itself to wetwork (a hacker e.g. would often be hard-pressed, although you can always get creative, of course) or a firm conviction about the kind of jobs they do, are not necessarily too weak or too nice to run the shadows. They can still be ruthless individuals, ruining lives instead of taking them, for the right amount of money, or simply as a side-effect.
Just having your code of "no wetwork specifically, thanks" doesn't mean a lack of skill, squeamishness, or unwillingness for getting your hands dirty. Quite differently, it can help building a reputation of someone who gets certain jobs very well done, instead of being a jack of all trades, master of none. It also doesn't need to mean that you are too high and mighty to take every job you're offered. It simply means that you're an independent operator who is very well capable of knowing what you can do and, above all, independent enough to pick and choose your jobs.

Every idiot with a gun (and a lot of them even without one) can kill people, but it takes a special skillset to become a successful shadowrunner.

Glyph

Jun 14 2014, 07:33 PM

QUOTE (TimTurry @ Jun 14 2014, 07:13 AM)

Unfortunately moral arguments usually end in sides calling each other names like sociopaths and babies. So let me do my share by calling some people's reply a lack of roleplaying

You are talking about a world where the price of life is much lower than the one you (the player) currently lives in. In addition, the same circumstances that formed the shadowrunner's background to move him in the direction of his chosen/picked career are different that the circumstances that formed your (player) career, and moral code. You are probably a student/engineer/nerd

(I know I am).

As such you can't just use your moral code for all your characters. It is not "you" in a post apocalyptic world, and not what would I do if magic existed. "You" would not be a shadowrunner. "You" would be a wageslave. A shadowrunner's moral code on average should start out gray.

Controversial part: If you are ending up playing "paladins" who have the perfect moral code in every character you play, I would submit that you are a bad roleplayer who cannot draw a clear line between fantasy and reality. You need to be able to -become- a different person who has a different personality than you. By the way, the same goes for someone who is always playing psychopaths.

Some people's playstyle is essentially playing themselves, only in a world where there are less consequences for bad actions, and less real sacrifices for good actions. Nothing wrong with playing that way, as an idealized self-insertion type of character, as long as it doesn't clash too much with the rest of the group. At least such players are still involved with the game world, as opposed to treating it like a first-person shooter. Who cares if someone is a "bad roleplayer" as long as they are having fun, and not wrecking anyone else's fun? Even players who play characters with completely different personalities are putting a lot of themselves in their creations.

On shadowrunners having "grey" moral codes - don't forget that shadowrunners can also be idealists. This doen't always translate into nice. People like shamans out to avenge Mother Earth, or neo-anarchists out to stick it to the man, can be more ruthless than the cold hard pros. They can have a Manichean moral compass where their "evil" enemies can be killed without qualms, while a pro might kill when it is necessary, but still remember that the corporate security guards are just regular Joes doing their job, rather than dehumanizing them.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 14 2014, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 14 2014, 06:29 AM)

I wouldn't necessarily limit it to the players. If the DM expects PCs to perform like perfectionist professionals, players are taught to bring a certain mindset and dicepools to the table.

There is a Difference between Professionals, and WORLD CLASS professionals. The first is easy to do and easy to fit to the world. The second... Not so much.
If everyone in the team is World Class, then they are not likely working in the Shadows. They would have been headhunted and/or forced to work with the Megas, or eliminated as a threat. You do not use World Class as Expendable Assets.

It is a Table Expectation, to be sure. But you can play extremely competent Professionals without ever needing to approach World Class.

DMiller

Jun 19 2014, 03:12 AM

To build on TJ's comment...

Starting characters cannot be World Class in SR5. Without breaking the rules, 1 skill at 6 and the rest lower is Not World Class.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 19 2014, 03:15 AM

QUOTE (DMiller @ Jun 18 2014, 09:12 PM)

To build on TJ's comment...

Starting characters cannot be World Class in SR5. Without breaking the rules, 1 skill at 6 and the rest lower is Not World Class.

While this is indeed true, I use the same philosophy of Character Generation in SR4A.

kzt

Jun 19 2014, 04:38 AM

QUOTE (TimTurry @ Jun 14 2014, 08:13 AM)

You are talking about a world where the price of life is much lower than the one you (the player) currently lives in. In addition, the same circumstances that formed the shadowrunner's background to move him in the direction of his chosen/picked career are different that the circumstances that formed your (player) career, and moral code. You are probably a student/engineer/nerd

(I know I am).

As such you can't just use your moral code for all your characters. It is not "you" in a post apocalyptic world, and not what would I do if magic existed. "You" would not be a shadowrunner. "You" would be a wageslave. A shadowrunner's moral code on average should start out gray.

I've played lots of characters in SR, the last one had the mindset and morals of an outlaw biker, like Hell's Angel/Bandito. Not a nice guy, with the criminal record to go along with it.

Can't think of a character who was a paladin.

toturi

Jun 19 2014, 07:45 AM

QUOTE (TimTurry @ Jun 14 2014, 10:13 PM)

Controversial part: If you are ending up playing "paladins" who have the perfect moral code in every character you play, I would submit that you are a bad roleplayer who cannot draw a clear line between fantasy and reality. You need to be able to -become- a different person who has a different personality than you. By the way, the same goes for someone who is always playing psychopaths.

I would submit that if you are able to "become a different person who has a different personality than you", then something might be wrong with you. You are not an actor with dialogue and action sequences pre-written. When you roleplay your character you are in effect investing some of yourself into that character. If the character's moral code is something that offends you, and yet you are able to play him, it suggests 1 of 2 things to me:
1) You are not really offended
2) You are not really having fun

Elfenlied

Jun 19 2014, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (DMiller @ Jun 19 2014, 03:12 AM)

To build on TJ's comment...

Starting characters cannot be World Class in SR5. Without breaking the rules, 1 skill at 6 and the rest lower is Not World Class.

Where does it say that you are limited to one skill at 6 during chargen?

DMiller

Jun 19 2014, 08:08 AM

QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 19 2014, 04:51 PM)

Where does it say that you are limited to one skill at 6 during chargen?

I could not find a reference in SR5 about only 1 skill at 6 (I haven't actually created any SR5 characters, only converted from SR4). However the point still stands. With skills now going to 12 (13 with aptitude) even if all your skills are 6, you are not World Class, you are simply a specialist and professional in your field.

Elfenlied

Jun 19 2014, 09:12 AM

QUOTE (DMiller @ Jun 19 2014, 08:08 AM)

I could not find a reference in SR5 about only 1 skill at 6 (I haven't actually created any SR5 characters, only converted from SR4). However the point still stands. With skills now going to 12 (13 with aptitude) even if all your skills are 6, you are not World Class, you are simply a specialist and professional in your field.

True, I'm not debating that point. I just wanted to make sure that I haven't been building SR5 characters the wrong way.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 19 2014, 01:22 PM

QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 19 2014, 12:51 AM)

Where does it say that you are limited to one skill at 6 during chargen?

It does not.

Happy Trees

Jun 19 2014, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 19 2014, 01:45 AM)

If the character's moral code is something that offends you, and yet you are able to play him, it suggests 1 of 2 things to me:
1) You are not really offended
2) You are not really having fun

Or:
3) You would be offended by such behavior in real life, but are smart enough to know this is just a game.

TimTurry

Jun 20 2014, 03:06 AM

QUOTE (Happy Trees @ Jun 19 2014, 08:25 AM)

Or:
3) You would be offended by such behavior in real life, but are smart enough to know this is just a game.

This ^

Of course you are acting when you roleplay. You are acting as a different character with different beliefs.

The fact that I can do it, shows that I have my feet squarely on the ground. I know what is a game and what is real. In fact I submit that leaving reality and entering a -different- fantasy is the best reason to roleplay. If you can't/don't do that, you are playing yourself. By not playing different characters, you are missing out on the best that roleplaying can offer.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 20 2014, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (TimTurry @ Jun 19 2014, 08:06 PM)

This ^

Of course you are acting when you roleplay. You are acting as a different character with different beliefs.

The fact that I can do it, shows that I have my feet squarely on the ground. I know what is a game and what is real. In fact I submit that leaving reality and entering a -different- fantasy is the best reason to roleplay. If you can't/don't do that, you are playing yourself. By not playing different characters, you are missing out on the best that roleplaying can offer.

And yet, no matter how much you do or do not immerse yourself in a different character, you STILL inevitably invest a piece of yourself in every character (assuming that you actually care about the character - I find that in Convention play I could care less about the characters played and have zero personal investment). Could be a small piece or big piece (and you may or may not recognize it), but it is still there.

Happy Trees

Jun 20 2014, 11:50 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 20 2014, 08:09 AM)

And yet, no matter how much you do or do not immerse yourself in a different character, you STILL inevitably invest a piece of yourself in every character ...

Of course you invest part of yourself in every character you play. IT's impossible to completely invent an entire set of motivations from a complete vacuum. Still, you CAN become someone drastically different than yourself, including understanding that certain ethical values might vary between yourself and your character. Despite this, the character is still a figment, and a different entity from the player.

CaptRory

Jun 21 2014, 01:24 AM

The point of a game is to have fun. If you do not enjoy playing certain kind of characters, you are not "doing it wrong" by avoiding them. I don't like being evil. I don't like playing evil characters. I wouldn't roll up an evil character. That doesn't mean my characters are incorruptible goodness and light. My magical girl character has suggested vivisection and the use of WMDs as ways to hasten the end of a war that has been going on for 1,000 years. She views herself as the most damaged, most disposable member of the team and views it as her job to be the paranoid pragmatic planner keeping the others safe.

Still not evil, but you seriously do not want to threaten her new family. She is Chaotic Pragmatic.

Fatum

Jul 4 2014, 08:14 PM

In my current game, the yaks hired the runners to deal with Koshari BTL trade (which cuts into their bunraku parlor sales). Except they also offered a means to do it: insert psychotropic coding into the chips that will kill the junkies, hoping that the backlash will make further trade for the AmerInds difficult.
The face walked, the rest of the team took the job.

kzt

Jul 5 2014, 01:03 AM

I've had characters who would have signed up for that without a second thought, some who would have asked for more money and some who would have walked.

psychophipps

Jul 5 2014, 03:55 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Jul 4 2014, 02:14 PM)

In my current game, the yaks hired the runners to deal with Koshari BTL trade (which cuts into their bunraku parlor sales). Except they also offered a means to do it: insert psychotropic coding into the chips that will kill the junkies, hoping that the backlash will make further trade for the AmerInds difficult.
The face walked, the rest of the team took the job.

Our group would typically play along and have The Star show up at a seriously inopportune moment. A few stick-n-shocks or other less-lethal options to get away from the Corp Cops and then they'd get paid anyway.

Shemhazai

Jul 5 2014, 09:43 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Jul 4 2014, 04:14 PM)

Koshari BTL

Mmmm... Food porn.

Koshari (national dish of Egypt) - Egyptian Rice, Lentils and Macaroni with Spicy Tomato Chile Sauce

But seriously, not only is that run reprehensible, it's a fairly idiotic scheme. I suppose that once those BTL chippers hear rumors that their vice is dangerous, they'll convert to meat puppetry. LOLWUT?

ShadowDragon8685

Jul 5 2014, 11:33 AM

A very important rule for both players and GMs to remember is:

NPCs are people. They are not perfectly rational actors with access to all the information on hand. They are not even perfectly rational actors acting imperfectly on all the information they themselves have access to.

So having Mr. Johnson hire a team for an idiotic run that can't possibly succeed in its stated goals is just fine and dandy. And so is doing that run - as long as you make it clear that your payment is predicated on specific events, not ultimate outcomes.

(IE, if you want us to assassinate the brutal, sadistic director of HR in the hopes that it will force the company to be nicer to its workers, my characters would do it, 'cause he's a schmuck who deserves to get whacked. But the payment is predicated on the assassination taking place, not the company being nicer to its workers.)