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Twizzler
Hey everyone, it's me again. I am currently developing a mage character, but seeing as how I've never played a mage character before, especially not in Shadowrun, I've come here to ask for some help in selecting appropriate spells.

Here is my mythweavers character sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=925594

As well as my chummer character sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6yrym5lneus3s2/Dr.%20Acula.chum

As well as suggesting spells that I should have in my Grimoire, any comments, questions, or concerns about the mess I've probably made with the rest of my character is always welcome.

Especially seeing as how I like lack gear. (I also like gear though smile.gif )

Thanks for your help!

P.S. Quick question, while I was reading up on magic, I read something about toxic, blood, and necromancy-type magic, but became confused. I didn't see what effect that any of them had on game play. Toxic had its own spirits, yes. And blood magic had a few metamagic options (which is another aspect I am entirely unsure of) and they didn't really go much into the necromancy aspect of any of it. I'm just unsure of how toxic magic really has an effect on the game play. Regardless, I thought being "toxic" would help reinforce my character's self image of insanity, even if his and others' definition of insanity are different. Lol.

Also, if you are wondering why I picked Insect tradition, to be honest, it seemed cool. Hive mind seemed like a cool power, and the fact that the spirits where named something besides "spirit of man" or "spirit of fire" helped.

Thanks again!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the BP for character development is 500!
Critias
Traditionally speaking, both toxic AND insect traditions are for Those Guys Over There, not for player characters. It's like being a Sith in Star Wars or a cultist in Call of Cthulu, servants of the Wyrm in Werewolf or that sort of thing; terrible dark flavor stuff that's there for NPCs, not PCs. They're the servants of otherworldly powers that are, all in all, very bad for humanity, and are universally reviled by all and sundry (except those who've lost their mind and been drawn into...they're the unrepentant bad guys that everyone else in the setting bands together to fight, they're not really player character material.

If you and your GM are on-board for a very alternative campaign, I guess knock yourself out, but it sounds, instead, like you kind of stumbled across it by accident, so you might want a heads up. You're basically making a double-whammy of both of the traditionally "woah, no way" villainous options in this game. Toxics are fallen spellcasters who have warped themselves and gone insane, perverting the beliefs of their mentor spirits and magical traditions, going psycho and slaughtering humanity like magical serial killers. Insect Spirits (and those who follow them) are literally trying to colonize the planet and take it over by turning it into a bunch of giant bug nests, planting magical seeds in the bodies of sacrificed humans (willing and otherwise) to give birth to horrific insect-human hybrids.

This is not a character, in other words, that will go over well with anyone who's more familiar with the setting than you, and is as such very likely to be either dismissed out of hand by a GM, or terrible disruptive to a campaign; and in neither instance -- Toxic OR Insect, much less both -- are you making something that's meant to be a player character, by the rules.
Machiavelli
Dr.Acula? Really? Too much Scrubs? wink.gif

Here my standard-repertoire in spells:

- Manabolt and/or Stunbolt (for living beings)
- Energybolt (for drones, etc.)
- Manaball (area-effect)
- Heal
- Improved invisibility
- Physical Mask
- Control Thoughts
- Levitation

Twizzler
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 13 2014, 04:33 AM) *
Traditionally speaking, both toxic AND insect traditions are for Those Guys Over There, not for player characters. It's like being a Sith in Star Wars or a cultist in Call of Cthulu, servants of the Wyrm in Werewolf or that sort of thing; terrible dark flavor stuff that's there for NPCs, not PCs. They're the servants of otherworldly powers that are, all in all, very bad for humanity, and are universally reviled by all and sundry (except those who've lost their mind and been drawn into...they're the unrepentant bad guys that everyone else in the setting bands together to fight, they're not really player character material.

If you and your GM are on-board for a very alternative campaign, I guess knock yourself out, but it sounds, instead, like you kind of stumbled across it by accident, so you might want a heads up. You're basically making a double-whammy of both of the traditionally "woah, no way" villainous options in this game. Toxics are fallen spellcasters who have warped themselves and gone insane, perverting the beliefs of their mentor spirits and magical traditions, going psycho and slaughtering humanity like magical serial killers. Insect Spirits (and those who follow them) are literally trying to colonize the planet and take it over by turning it into a bunch of giant bug nests, planting magical seeds in the bodies of sacrificed humans (willing and otherwise) to give birth to horrific insect-human hybrids.

This is not a character, in other words, that will go over well with anyone who's more familiar with the setting than you, and is as such very likely to be either dismissed out of hand by a GM, or terrible disruptive to a campaign; and in neither instance -- Toxic OR Insect, much less both -- are you making something that's meant to be a player character, by the rules.



Ah, okay. The book said that they were insane, but I didn't really have any context for that statement. So I'll have to change my tradition. Thanks again for explaining it to me.

So how about the path of the dead, or shadow spirits? Or is that just as bad?
Twizzler
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 13 2014, 05:01 AM) *
Dr.Acula? Really? Too much Scrubs? wink.gif


You caught me! biggrin.gif

I couldn't think of a name for my character yet, so I went with a classic.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Twizzler @ Jun 13 2014, 04:11 AM) *
Ah, okay. The book said that they were insane, but I didn't really have any context for that statement. So I'll have to change my tradition. Thanks again for explaining it to me.

So how about the path of the dead, or shadow spirits? Or is that just as bad?

Just as bad, really. As a first-time mage, I advise you to stick to the "core" traditions: shamanic or Hermetic. There's enough give in both archetypes that they can fit the vast majority of spellslingers in one or the other, and you don't need to worry about any special rules or unintended setting-breaking.
Meatbag
You want:

Manabolt (or Stunbolt)

Manaball (Or stunball)

Powerbolt.

---^ These are Combat spells. Direct spells are good because your target can't really do shit about them without Counterspelling. I like Stunbolt/ball over Manabolt/Ball because alive enemies are more useful than dead ones, and it's harder to resist Stun. Powerbolt is for machines, you can skip it if you trust the team to handle drones.

Improved Invisibility/Physical Mask/Both.

Levitate.

---^ Sneaky sneaky, for you or a teammate. Most missions involve somebody being somewhere they shouldn't be, so these rock!

Mind Probe

Alter Memory

----^ This is *why* living enemies are more useful than dead ones. You can get a lot of intel from the right unconscious target, and they won't remember the part about you knocking them cold and dragging them down a dark alley.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 13 2014, 04:01 AM) *
Dr.Acula? Really? Too much Scrubs? wink.gif

Here my standard-repertoire in spells:

- Manabolt and/or Stunbolt (for living beings)
- Energybolt (for drones, etc.)
- Manaball (area-effect)
- Heal
- Improved invisibility
- Physical Mask
- Control Thoughts
- Levitation


Adding to this list, I have some options... But first a very important question.

Do you have a hacker and/or a technomancer in the group?

If so, you can synergize with them - especially the technomancer - in very powerful (read: some GMs will ban this outright) ways.

Here's how it works. If you're making a Magician, you already know about Drain - it's what hits you when you do stuff. The game is very, very clear in telling you that you absolutely cannot under any circumstances cure damage taken through Drain with magic.

Fading is basically Drain, For Technomancers... But whether through intent or omission, it lacks the language that prohibits in absolutely no uncertain terms using magic to cure it. Meanwhile, Technomancers are basically computer magicians, they can compile sprites (summon spirits) and other shit that can be brokenly powerful... But Fading is the opportunity cost.

And then you patch them right back up with a custom spell which cures Stun damage, and they can do it again.

The Decker will also appreciate this when they take any biofeedback damage, such as by being nailed by Blackout or dumpshocked, and so will anyone else who takes stun, such as, say, by being on the receiving end of a burst of Stick 'n Shock, but a magician who can heal Fading and a Technomancer can force-multiply logarithmically. (Having a medtech on hand, even just a drone, to heal your Drain, can turn this into a circlejerk of awesomeness, spewing awesome-sauce everywhere.)

Other than that.. Orgasm/Orgy are great spells for easily disabling people without stunbolting them unconscious, and they're full of mundane utility to boot.
Meatbag
Oh. and on mad mages? There aren't any (non-horrible) Traditions that self-identify as insane, because..Well, insanity doesn't usually lend itself to structured belief systems, which is what Traditions are. Individual mages can be madmen, though, and there's room for all kinds of eccentric individuals even in the two broad core traditions.

A mad shaman still believes that power comes from communion with spirits. and that spirits are beings worthy of respect. The fact that he consults a tree growing in the park for wisdom, and allows a teeming den of rats to live in his house so as not to offend his totem animal? That's all on him.

An insane Hermetic Mage still thinks that magic has rules, it works according to ritual and formula, and spirits are..Usually means to an end, not "people". The fact that he once cut open a cat so he could try to catch its soul in a canopic jar? Or his meticulous obsession with fivefold symmetry and pentacle shapes? That's all just his damage, mostly.

Either one of them could have a "mentor spirit" that's actually a vivid hallucination, or an *actual* mentor spirit that they keep dismissing as a hallucination. A trickster spirit would probably work best, since they're more likely to be amused than offended.
Surukai
As previous poster mentioned, picking the clear "Not player character material" background makes it very difficult to make good suggestions so I'll just assume you'll pick a normal mage or shaman for my suggestions.

I have three considerations that are good to know.

Damage
For damage, look at the various options for direct spells. All three types (Power*, stun* and mana*) works great and have very distinct uses. If you want to go for just one, stunbolt is most flexible since it is supreme at disabling targets and is very effective at murdering people too if needed.
If I want to have a good object destruction option shatter (Power type, touch range) is excellent but powerbolt is more flexible.

A good trio that I tend to go for is: Powerbolt (For destroying objects), stunball (For aoe), stunbolt (for single target).

Indirect spells are broken by design. They are only useful for experienced players that know how to make use of lightning crowd control.

Buffs
Most "Buff" spells can safely be ignored. They need some special treatment to work. Since you get a -2 penalty to all* actions while sustaining a spell you should try go for things you can keep in sustaining foci, or as spirit services (Spirit of Man Innate spell power).

The one buff spell that is critical for all mages is increase reflexes. It is very important to stay on level with the rest of the group in terms of action economy.

Other than that, be gentle with buffs. If you walk around abusing spirit buffing you or look like an astral christmas tree with too many foci it draws attention and even more importantly, aggro at your character. Both from GMs and other players.

Also, consider drugs as a good backup for initiative passes boosts. Cram, Jazz etc.

Fun utility
There are far more fun utility spells that helps you and your team get around that I suggest looking at. Levitate, Ice sheet, Mana Barrier, shape shift, elemental wall, elemental aura ...

Ice sheet in particular is very fun. It is a good knockdown spell, it has much use to stop vehicles and people from running and it is quite fun without being broken or boring.

spells to avoid include Mob mind, Mind probe and to some extend Influence (Even if that one is actually okay if used creatively). Not because they are bad (they are not, they are flat out over powered) but because they tend to ruin most adventures, gameplay and challenge. Mind controlling targets to deny them to defend against your attacks and to make them shoot their friends is an order of magnitude more effective than trying to deal damage or debuff a target.
It is so effective that it will make your character a constant nuisance for the entire group and brings no amount of fun to the table. (much like playing possession, toxic, blood, insect or shadow based characters. Seriously, it isn't cool. Not unless your friend Street sam can play a magic immune cyberzombie to match smile.gif)

Blade
The basic spell list has already been given, and it's definitely the best "no-brainers" spells.

But there are less common spell lists that can also be extremely useful. I remember someone who played a mage who only had "Shape" spells, but for the most common elements. With some creativity, this character could do really amazing stuff.

If you can think out of the box, you can be very useful with uncommon spells, even more so if you use the spell design rules to create interesting variations to the basic spells.
Jaid
it's worth noting that while the book calls something a spirit of man, that isn't necessarily what a given tradition will call the spirit. christian mages typically associate different spirits with types of angels (cherubim, seraphim, etc). voodoun associate spirits with a certain loa. shaman is an incredibly broad category, and they likely wouldn't call anything a "beast spirit" except as a broad category... far more likely that they would summon what they would consider to be the spirit of a mountain lion or a wolf (mechanically it's basically the same though). they don't call on earth spirits, they call on the spirit of a mountain, or a sacred hill, or something like that. they don't call water spirits, they have river spirits and lake spirits, some of which they might even give names attached to spirits that were associated with certain areas in whatever legends they know.

SR3 did a much better job of breaking down the spirits a shaman will conjure into different groups. it also had rules that shamans could only conjure spirits, and only in an appropriate environment, though nyahnyah.gif (so for example, if you called on a spirit that lives in a forest, you had to be in a forest, and the spirit wouldn't leave the forest). that was all dropped to simplify the magic system, i think. but if you can get your hands on a copy.

even with SR4, you've still got some options available, though... you could summon a spirit of the desert wind, and choose sand for your elemental attack instead of the lightning that many people would typically assign to an air spirit. you could roleplay that their concealment power clouds the mind like a desert mirage, while a storm spirit would shoot lightning and their concealment would look like clouds (at least, in the astral. possibly in the physical world too, if your GM doesn't mind ruling that it clouds the mind as well).
Brazilian_Shinobi
Why no one said Slow from War! yet? *runs for cover* biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Blade @ Jun 13 2014, 11:08 AM) *
The basic spell list has already been given, and it's definitely the best "no-brainers" spells.

But there are less common spell lists that can also be extremely useful. I remember someone who played a mage who only had "Shape" spells, but for the most common elements. With some creativity, this character could do really amazing stuff.

If you can think out of the box, you can be very useful with uncommon spells, even more so if you use the spell design rules to create interesting variations to the basic spells.


I just finished playing a character with this motif... Was immensely fun to play.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 13 2014, 12:07 PM) *
it's worth noting that while the book calls something a spirit of man, that isn't necessarily what a given tradition will call the spirit. christian mages typically associate different spirits with types of angels (cherubim, seraphim, etc). voodoun associate spirits with a certain loa. shaman is an incredibly broad category, and they likely wouldn't call anything a "beast spirit" except as a broad category... far more likely that they would summon what they would consider to be the spirit of a mountain lion or a wolf (mechanically it's basically the same though). they don't call on earth spirits, they call on the spirit of a mountain, or a sacred hill, or something like that. they don't call water spirits, they have river spirits and lake spirits, some of which they might even give names attached to spirits that were associated with certain areas in whatever legends they know.

SR3 did a much better job of breaking down the spirits a shaman will conjure into different groups. it also had rules that shamans could only conjure spirits, and only in an appropriate environment, though nyahnyah.gif (so for example, if you called on a spirit that lives in a forest, you had to be in a forest, and the spirit wouldn't leave the forest). that was all dropped to simplify the magic system, i think. but if you can get your hands on a copy.

even with SR4, you've still got some options available, though... you could summon a spirit of the desert wind, and choose sand for your elemental attack instead of the lightning that many people would typically assign to an air spirit. you could roleplay that their concealment power clouds the mind like a desert mirage, while a storm spirit would shoot lightning and their concealment would look like clouds (at least, in the astral. possibly in the physical world too, if your GM doesn't mind ruling that it clouds the mind as well).


I do a LOT of re-fluffing based upon Traditions and expectations. Works really well, in my opinion. That is the Strength of SR4, in my opinion... A Unified system that can easily be re-fluffed with no further complexity added in. All the mechanics are the same, regardless. . smile.gif
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 13 2014, 02:09 PM) *
I do a LOT of re-fluffing based upon Traditions and expectations. Works really well, in my opinion. That is the Strength of SR4, in my opinion... A Unified system that can easily be re-fluffed with no further complexity added in. All the mechanics are the same, regardless. . smile.gif


What I liked about it as well. It's a great, simple dice engine. To be honest, I stripped it down even further by making all bonuses added dice and all penalties being modifiers to the threshold.
Twizzler
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 13 2014, 03:29 PM) *
Why no one said Slow from War! yet? *runs for cover* biggrin.gif


I just read up on that spell, are you telling me it stops bullets, or just slows them down enough that they do no damage?
Critias
Shhh. It's best to just forget it ever happened.
FuelDrop
The single must-have spell for 4th edition is shapechange:

Need to get away quickly? Turn into a bird and fly away. Underwater mission? Shark. Need to recon a suburban area? Stray cat or dog will do the job for you.

Now the important thing about how Shapechange works is that it increases the target's base ability score, rather than their augmented score. With edge and a good dicepool, this means that it becomes one of the most powerful buff spells in the game. Add to that the fact that an unarmed adept in the party can be improved massively by turning them into a horse. Seriously, horse is one of the best bang for your buck combat forms in the game.

Now you can't turn things into other metahumans as far as I know, but if you want to be a bit sneaky try turning your friendly neighborhood troll into a bear. Still about the same size so their armor should still fit, and their paws are still fairly prehensile so with some custom modification his guns should still be workable.
Glyph
Slow is a ludicrously unbalanced spell in a book that is full of lots of other stupid stuff. If your GM allows it, then take it, I guess... kind of a no-brainer then.

Machiavelli and Meatbag covered the core must-have spells, mostly, and my list would be about the same. The only thing I would add is Increase Reflexes, because extra initiative passes are so useful. Armor is kind of a trap option - it gives you protection, but it makes you glow, which can draw enemy fire, to the point where you would have been better off not using it.
SpellBinder
For +1 to the drain you can have Body Glove (from Land Of Promise, page 23) that does the same as Armor without the glow.
Critias
In SR4, at least. A non-glowy Armor hasn't made it into SR5 just yet.

I'm a big fan of Increase Body, myself, when you're out to buff someone prior to sending them into the line of fire. Comparable defensive assistance, additional health tracks, no glowing, and less Drain than Armor.
Twizzler
How about foci? What should I get for those?
Kyrel
Personally I'd suggest that you forget about "must have" spells, and look at who your character is, and then considder which spells it make sense that this character have learned. There are plenty of useful spells to choose from, and the more creative you are, the more useful most of them can become. If you are only looking for efficiency, go with some of the replies you've received above. But if you want a more roleplay oriented approach, go for some spells that fit the character, and trust in your creativity to make them useful during runs.
Glyph
For foci, power foci are the most versatile and overall useful. Sustaining foci and counterspelling foci are good as well, but depending on how fast you can advance/earn money in the game, it might be better to wait until you can afford higher-rated sustaining foci, or initiate and get the more useful shielding focus, rather than the counterspelling focus (which is limited to only one type of spell).

Don't forget about conjuring, either. Spirits can be very useful, and are very tough at mid-to-high force.
Jaid
i'm also a fan of a dedicated anti-spirit spell. yes, stunbolt does an adequate job, but stunbolt that is aspected to spirits only is even lower drain so it's even more trivial to overcast it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jun 13 2014, 07:22 PM) *
The single must-have spell for 4th edition is shapechange:

Need to get away quickly? Turn into a bird and fly away. Underwater mission? Shark. Need to recon a suburban area? Stray cat or dog will do the job for you.

Now the important thing about how Shapechange works is that it increases the target's base ability score, rather than their augmented score. With edge and a good dicepool, this means that it becomes one of the most powerful buff spells in the game. Add to that the fact that an unarmed adept in the party can be improved massively by turning them into a horse. Seriously, horse is one of the best bang for your buck combat forms in the game.

Now you can't turn things into other metahumans as far as I know, but if you want to be a bit sneaky try turning your friendly neighborhood troll into a bear. Still about the same size so their armor should still fit, and their paws are still fairly prehensile so with some custom modification his guns should still be workable.


We modified Shapechange a bit. The Change: You must SPLIT your net hits among your physical Stats, not add to them all. 4 Net Hits? That is 4 points of stat to be assigned to your Physicals. on a 1 for 1 basis.

As for changing into Metahumans - We easily solved that by using custom spells. One for ecach Metatype. Troll Form, Ork Form, Human Form, Dwarf Form, Elf Form. Worked out nicely. With the same caveat as Shapechange... split your net hits into your attributes.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 14 2014, 10:22 AM) *
i'm also a fan of a dedicated anti-spirit spell. yes, stunbolt does an adequate job, but stunbolt that is aspected to spirits only is even lower drain so it's even more trivial to overcast it.


Spirit Bolt - The best damaging Combat Spell my MysAd possessed (and he only had 2 of them).
evilgijoe
sterilize and improved invisibility are two that i find good to have on the team.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 14 2014, 12:28 AM) *
In SR4, at least. A non-glowy Armor hasn't made it into SR5 just yet.
So it'd be what, F-1 or F for the SR5 version of Body Glove? Little hard to tell since there's no magic splat book yet for custom spells, and the Drain calculation seems to be... whatever.
toturi
I like having Armor spell glowy. It makes it much easier for people to shoot the troll tank.
Udoshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 13 2014, 03:52 AM) *
And then you patch them right back up with a custom spell which cures Stun damage, and they can do it again.



There's a specific prohobition against this on 4A 207: "No techniques currently known to magic can erase Stun damage or cure psychological conditions."

I do believe this is the one things the devs accounted for.

Modular Man
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 13 2014, 09:29 PM) *
Why no one said Slow from War! yet? *runs for cover* biggrin.gif

Cover won't help being targeted by a bloody thor shot. nyahnyah.gif
Aw, I really, really dislike that spell. sarcastic.gif

That being said...
I can't recall a time when I was truly satisfied when looking at my character's grimoire smile.gif There's always something else just as nice. Right now, my current character focuses on a mix of illusion and manipulation spells. Obviously, I'm going for the utility mage. The war mage is covered by someone else (and in my opinion, most front combat can be handled by mundane team members as well).
Levitate has so many applications, I never go without it.
Physical Mask accounts for a lot of disguises (possibly even cars, just check with your GM how object resistance will be handled).
Shapechange for the fun of it. A few weeks back, the alternate plan if the team troll had gone down was to shapechange him into a cheetah. They're surprisingly light for a body 5 creature. Aerial recon via crow shape has also worked out well. You'll have to like the spell, though.
Improved Invisibility - once solved more that half of a firefight and likely avoided a few more.
Deflection/Combat Sense are powerful. They directly add dice to avoiding bullets, something not a whole lot of other things does.
Increase Reflexes is almost mandatory. Initiative Passes rule combat.

Anyhow, don't just pick "absolutely necessary" spells, there's just too many of them and too little room for others. Browse the spell lists and pick according to the character and your liking smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 16 2014, 10:36 AM) *
There's a specific prohobition against this on 4A 207: "No techniques currently known to magic can erase Stun damage or cure psychological conditions."

I do believe this is the one things the devs accounted for.


Really?

That's mighty stupid, especially with them already being very, very specific about Drain.

It just further reinforces Stick n' Shock as god ammo choice, because once someone's unconscious you can either capture them, or just cap them, at your leisure. Most people's Stun tracks are already shorter than their physical tracks anyway, and armor poorly protects against Stun sources, especially electrical sources.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 17 2014, 07:14 PM) *
It just further reinforces Stick n' Shock as good ammo choice, because once someone's unconscious you can either capture them, or just cap them, at your leisure. Most people's Stun tracks are already shorter than their physical tracks anyway, and armor poorly protects against Stun sources, especially electrical sources.
Almost every character I've ever made, for play or for fiction, that has FFBA also has maxed out nonconductivity added to it for just that reason.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 17 2014, 09:40 PM) *
Almost every character I've ever made, for play or for fiction, that has FFBA also has maxed out nonconductivity added to it for just that reason.


If you want to be absolutely anal about an RAW reading, even the electrical resistance of nonconducitivty is halved, because it says it adds to the relevant armor rating, and doesn't say anything about not being halved.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 17 2014, 08:15 PM) *
If you want to be absolutely anal about an RAW reading, even the electrical resistance of nonconducitivty is halved, because it says it adds to the relevant armor rating, and doesn't say anything about not being halved.


Beg to Differ...

QUOTE
Nonconductivity: Electrical insulation and grounding materials protect the wearer against Electricity damage (p. 163), adding its full rating to the armor value.


That quote is straight out of the book. Nonconductivity adds it FULL RATING to halved armor values, not half its rating. Looks pretty straight forward to me. *shrug*
Brazilian_Shinobi
As in, an armor rating of 6 with Nonconductivity 6 would have armor rating 9 against electrical sources ( 6:2+3)
Seems pretty straightforward for me too.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 18 2014, 10:37 AM) *
Beg to Differ...

QUOTE
Nonconductivity: Electrical insulation and grounding materials protect the wearer against Electricity damage (p. 163), adding its full rating to the armor value.


That quote is straight out of the book. Nonconductivity adds it FULL RATING to halved armor values, not half its rating. Looks pretty straight forward to me. *shrug*


And this says nothing about the order of operations.

You're saying it's:

(Armor Rating /2 Electricity Damage) + Nonconductivity.

By a strict reading of the RAW, though, which you QUOTED, it's...

(Armor Rating + Nonconductivity) /2 Electrical Damage.


The Nonconductivity, in full, is added to the armor against incoming electrical damage. Then the electrical damage, per its own rules, halves the armor, whose total has been increased by the sum of the Nonconductivity.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 18 2014, 04:38 PM) *
That quote is straight out of the book. Nonconductivity adds it FULL RATING to halved armor values, not half its rating. Looks pretty straight forward to me. *shrug*


And this says nothing about the order of operations.

You're saying it's:

(Armor Rating /2 Electricity Damage) + Nonconductivity.

By a strict reading of the RAW, though, which you QUOTED, it's...

(Armor Rating + Nonconductivity) /2 Electrical Damage.


The Nonconductivity, in full, is added to the armor against incoming electrical damage. Then the electrical damage, per its own rules, halves the armor, whose total has been increased by the sum of the Nonconductivity.


By strict reading, it is Armor/2 (Electricity Damage) + Nonconductivity (Adds Full Rating for Electricity Damage Resolution). How can it add full rating if it is halved? Pretty simple, really..

Not really worth arguing about, though, since you KNOW what the order of operation is based upon Developer and Freelancer feedback over the years.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 18 2014, 11:07 PM) *
By strict reading, it is Armor/2 (Electricity Damage) + Nonconductivity (Adds Full Rating for Electricity Damage Resolution). How can it add full rating if it is halved? Pretty simple, really..


Except it's not simple at all

As I pointed out. Here is the order of operations.

"ARMOR value = Armor"
"ARMOR VALUE vs. ELECTRICAL = +Nonconductivity Vs. ELECTRICAL."
Incoming attack is ELECTRICAL.
"(Armor + NONCONDUCTIVITY = NEWARMOR"
"ELECTRICAL halves NEWARMOR."

By a strict reading of the rules as written, that's what I get.

Now, the rules as INTENDED were obviously for Nonconductivity to apply at full measure, which is what I've always seen it happen, because I've never been nor played with a GM quite so asinine as to do that.

But as written, that's the order of operations I get out of it. It does not say it adds its full value AFTER HALVING. It says it adds its value.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 18 2014, 07:38 PM) *
The Nonconductivity, in full, is added to the armor against incoming electrical damage. Then the electrical damage, per its own rules, halves the armor, whose total has been increased by the sum of the Nonconductivity.


I'm sorry, but can you math?
Or better question, which country you come from where sum operations are calculated before divide operations?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 18 2014, 08:37 PM) *
Except it's not simple at all

As I pointed out. Here is the order of operations.

"ARMOR value = Armor"
"ARMOR VALUE vs. ELECTRICAL = +Nonconductivity Vs. ELECTRICAL."
Incoming attack is ELECTRICAL.
"(Armor + NONCONDUCTIVITY = NEWARMOR"
"ELECTRICAL halves NEWARMOR."

By a strict reading of the rules as written, that's what I get.

Now, the rules as INTENDED were obviously for Nonconductivity to apply at full measure, which is what I've always seen it happen, because I've never been nor played with a GM quite so asinine as to do that.

But as written, that's the order of operations I get out of it. It does not say it adds its full value AFTER HALVING. It says it adds its value.


Your definitions are not everyone's definitions. If you are halving your nonconductive armor vs electrical damage, then you are NOT applying FULL NONCONDUCTIVE ARMOR vs Electrical Damage. Simple as that.

It appears that you see it as: (Armor + PPP + FFBA + Shield + Whatever + Elemental Mods)/2. The rest of us see it as: ((Armor + PPP + FFBA + Whatever)/2) + Elemental Mods), since Elemental Mods mean absolutely Squat when it comes to normal AP issues. They ONLY apply when an Element they affect is present. Therefore they are added after the fact (at FULL VALUE, as indicated by the text of the book) rather than as part of the basic calculation (which would add them at HALF Value).

As for the ability to perform Math, Brazilian Shinobi, you know how those people from the Boonies of New Jersey are. I think ShadowDragon8685 just wants to be contrary, even though he knows exactly how it works in game (as evidenced by his comments at the end of the post). smile.gif

My biggest disconnect for Elemental Damage (in SR4A) is that it gets more effective the better the armor is, which is asinine. SR5 got that right, at least, when they gave it a specific amount of AP (SnS at AP -5,and Elemental Spells at AP -Force), rather than simply -Half. This also makes it more intuitive, since you are no longer dividing Armor Values, so you just add everything together (Including the Elemental protection - Nonconductive in this case) and then reduce by the appropriate AP (-5 or -Force). smile.gif

Are the other Core Book Elements (Cold, Fire and Acid) also treated this way? I am pretty sure that Fire is treated this way, but the other two I am a bit fuzzy on. I have no book to look at, but I would hope that they are, otherwise they got it right in one place and still screwed the pooch in the related cases.
SpellBinder
Acid & Cold are also halved, just like Fire & Electricity.

From Street Magic (my copy, at least), all the elements there are also halved, save Metal (Impact +2), and Smoke & Sound (Armor Negated).

In SR5, all Indirect Combat spells have an AP of -(Force), but there's no accounting for the Element. The Elements listed in the SR5 book do not have an AP value of their own (as a side note, Punch/Clout/Blast are Indirect spells w/o an Elemental effect, means they have an AP of -(Force)).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 19 2014, 10:56 AM) *
Acid & Cold are also halved, just like Fire & Electricity.


In 4th Edition, Yes, but I think it is different in 5th, which is what my question centered around - sorry for the miscommunication. smile.gif

QUOTE
From Street Magic (my copy, at least), all the elements there are also halved, save Metal (Impact +2), and Smoke & Sound (Armor Negated).


Righto indeed... smile.gif

QUOTE
In SR5, all Indirect Combat spells have an AP of -(Force), but there's no accounting for the Element. The Elements listed in the SR5 book do not have an AP value of their own (as a side note, Punch/Clout/Blast are Indirect spells w/o an Elemental effect, means they have an AP of -(Force)).


Yes, but what about just the Element itself, Like FIRE - I have a Flamethrower, Magnesium Flare or Torch. I believe that it is no longer -Half, but has an actual AP value based upon Fire size/type? How are Cold and Acid handled (I seem to remember what you are describing for Cold and Acid - No AP at all, but other effects like degradation of Armor, and some such). Again, away from my SR5 Book. smile.gif
SpellBinder
SR5, page 171, Flame-Based Weapon is AP -6. An open flame (like a torch) is AP -2.

From the description of Acid damage, it degrades Armor by 1 per combat turn but the DV also drops by 1 at the same rate. It might also create Light Smoke.

Cold makes Armor take an Armor Test whenever it is directly hit, or it breaks.

Electrical causes a -1 DP on all actions & tests save Damage Resistance for 1 or more combat turns, and -5 Initiative when used on the living. Against drones & electronic devices they take all Electrical damage as Physical, and half of this suffered again as Matrix damage.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 19 2014, 12:04 PM) *
SR5, page 171, Flame-Based Weapon is AP -6. An open flame (like a torch) is AP -2.

From the description of Acid damage, it degrades Armor by 1 per combat turn but the DV also drops by 1 at the same rate. It might also create Light Smoke.

Cold makes Armor take an Armor Test whenever it is directly hit, or it breaks.

Electrical causes a -1 DP on all actions & tests save Damage Resistance for 1 or more combat turns, and -5 Initiative when used on the living. Against drones & electronic devices they take all Electrical damage as Physical, and half of this suffered again as Matrix damage.


So at least they got that right in the new edition. smile.gif
Thanks SpellBinder... smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 19 2014, 09:09 AM) *
I'm sorry, but can you math?
Or better question, which country you come from where sum operations are calculated before divide operations?


When they're bundled together in parenthesis. Are you familiar with the order of operations agreement? The one that gave us that catchy backronym, PEMDAS? Or, to use a catchier phrase, "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally"?

Parenthesis first, then everything else. By an anal-retentive reading of the rules, I would have to conclude that all armor mods are parenthesized with the armor's natural values.



QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 19 2014, 09:26 AM) *
Your definitions are not everyone's definitions. If you are halving your nonconductive armor vs electrical damage, then you are NOT applying FULL NONCONDUCTIVE ARMOR vs Electrical Damage. Simple as that.


No, I'm being anal retentive in following the strict reading of the rules, which is to sum the full value of the electrical resistance with the armor's own values. And then the rule which states that those values are halved vs. electrical damage.

QUOTE
It appears that you see it as: (Armor + PPP + FFBA + Shield + Whatever + Elemental Mods)/2. The rest of us see it as: ((Armor + PPP + FFBA + Whatever)/2) + Elemental Mods), since Elemental Mods mean absolutely Squat when it comes to normal AP issues. They ONLY apply when an Element they affect is present. Therefore they are added after the fact (at FULL VALUE, as indicated by the text of the book) rather than as part of the basic calculation (which would add them at HALF Value).


The latter is absolutely the way things were intended to be, and the way I run it in my games, because of course it is.

But by a strict RAW reading, then it's the first.

(Armor + X) - Y = Z.
X is a variable that has to be solved for separately, as it is a set consisting of the sum total of any applicable armor mods which increase your effective armor value against the incoming attack, and, against an electrical attack, which set includes Nonconductivity at whatever rating you have it at. Y is the Armor Penetration value of the incoming attack, which in the case of electrical damage, is a /2 operation, rather than a flat -number operation. Z is the total amount of armor which is applicable to the attack, which actually works to reduce the impact of the incoming damage, hopefully down into the "That tickles!" range rather than "Upgraded from a closed casket funeral to an open casket funeral."


QUOTE
As for the ability to perform Math, Brazilian Shinobi, you know how those people from the Boonies of New Jersey are. I think ShadowDragon8685 just wants to be contrary, even though he knows exactly how it works in game (as evidenced by his comments at the end of the post). smile.gif


Hey, Jersey boys aren't hopeless at math. Remember Thomas Edison?

Granted, he was a much better ripoff than he was an inventor, but he still did straight-up legit invent some things. Like a way to bribe patent clerks, admit to it in court, and be found not guilty.


QUOTE
]My biggest disconnect for Elemental Damage (in SR4A) is that it gets more effective the better the armor is, which is asinine. SR5 got that right, at least, when they gave it a specific amount of AP (SnS at AP -5,and Elemental Spells at AP -Force), rather than simply -Half. This also makes it more intuitive, since you are no longer dividing Armor Values, so you just add everything together (Including the Elemental protection - Nonconductive in this case) and then reduce by the appropriate AP (-5 or -Force). smile.gif


That would be much simpler and make more sense, I imagine. Not to mention remove the shenanigannery I outlined above.
Kyrel
Guys, before this turns into any more of a math lesson, can we agree that despite whatever formulation might have been used for this section of the rules, the intention has been that things like "non-conductivity" etc., that are intended to protect against elemental effects, add their full rating to the defense dice pool, on top of half of the normal armour?
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