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Cain
One company might not be able to *win* versus all the other megas, but a AAA has the potential to do a lot of crippling damage on its way down. If a megacorp becomes willing to do economic MAD, the others will tread carefully, even if they know they'll eventually prevail.

Favors owed, for example. You don't just need ties to other megas, you can call in government favors and tie up the others with frivolous lawsuits. Using favors and bribery, you can make the other megas business grind to a halt while expensive lawyers try and sort things out. Normally, you wouldn't do this, as it'd cost more than you'd gain. But if you're going down anyway....

Or, if you really want to screw someone, buy as much of their stock as you can and then dump it on the market for a fraction of what you paid. If you do this on a big enough scale, you can make their stock value plummett. You'll *lose* billions in the process, but since you're about to die, you may as well hurt them as much as you can.

Those are just a couple of examples of how one mega could hurt another, if they're desperate enough to take a loss doing it.
Jaid
you can *try* to call in government favours. but odds are good, the other megas also are owed many government favours. collectively, they probably are owed more than you. and the people you're asking for help know that you're going to burn, and that the people you're asking them to tick off are going to still be around.

now, some people may be loyal enough to you to do something as stupid as making a bunch of megacorporations angry at them on your behalf when you're no longer around. but not most.

as to dumping stocks, yes that is a possibility. depending to some extent on the corp, that is... some of them have more stock tied up in the hands of people unwilling to trade than others. and of course, if those in power can manage to buy up the stocks, they can secure their own position even further (and ultimately, since the plummeting value is artificial, it will eventually correct itself).

also, that presumes that an omega order against a AAA doesn't automatically trigger all stock exchanges being shut down to prevent this sort of thing from happening. but that's just speculation. it *is* a pretty obvious target, though.

but again, this presumes that the executive who could give that order is exclusively loyal to aztechnology to the point of being willing to pretty much guarantee their own death. if the executive instead decides that they'd rather be in a position to get a nice cushy job as an executive at whichever company takes over (which they can probably even influence, meaning they can buy that position of power with their complicity to the corporation of their choice), well, that's not likely to happen.

lots of people are fanatically loyal to their mega. most of the executives? probably more loyal to themselves.
ShadowDragon8685
Jaid, you just are not grokking the setting here.

A triple-A Megacorp is not just Goldman-Sachs grown to immense proportions. It's Goldman-Sachs with decades of being an unregulatable, army-fielding global superpower.

An army unused is a useless army, and as the cold war showed, you do not have to be able to win a war to make sure that everybody else also loses the war. That is what we're talking about, and yes, they will do that if it comes to it!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 17 2014, 10:19 AM) *
Jaid, you just are not grokking the setting here.

A triple-A Megacorp is not just Goldman-Sachs grown to immense proportions. It's Goldman-Sachs with decades of being an unregulatable, army-fielding global superpower.

An army unused is a useless army, and as the cold war showed, you do not have to be able to win a war to make sure that everybody else also loses the war. That is what we're talking about, and yes, they will do that if it comes to it!


That ALSO presumes that everyone in the affected Megacorp is working in Lockstep (with absolutely no dissension whatsoever), which we know is not true. The AAA's, while powerful, are not hyper-coordinated, and middle management on up often sell their loyalty to whomever will pay the highest, otherwise Extractions don't work. You HAVE to take that into account. I do agree, though, that it will be costly for an Omega-Order to be issued, and potentially catastrophic, on more than one level.

Your comparison to the Cold war is somewhat lost on me, though. Who, exactly, forced everyone else to lose that particular war (because not everyone lost out)?
psychophipps
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 17 2014, 11:19 AM) *
Jaid, you just are not grokking the setting here.

A triple-A Megacorp is not just Goldman-Sachs grown to immense proportions. It's Goldman-Sachs with decades of being an unregulatable, army-fielding global superpower.


Quoted for truth. These guys in the AAA realm are the de facto world financial system, whether the world of SR likes it or not.

The other thing to keep in mind is that with all of the subsidiaries, shell corporations, and other well-known financial shenanigans, huge percentages of the offensive potential of a given AAA will be "off the books". There are plenty of Shadowrunners and smaller mercenary companies out there willing to be hired no questions asked to do some "weapon systems testing" if it proves necessary. Saying that one of the largest financial powers in the world is completely incapable of fielding forces without an official "Aztechnology" patch on their uniforms in the case of an inter-corporate war is not thinking things entirely through.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 17 2014, 06:57 PM) *
Your comparison to the Cold war is somewhat lost on me, though. Who, exactly, forced everyone else to lose that particular war (because not everyone lost out)?

Please tell me you are joking.

The cold war was not about who would win.
The cold war was about if i lose, you lose too.
It was all about the victory not being worth it.
Nobody lost and thus everybody won.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 17 2014, 12:26 PM) *
Please tell me you are joking.

The cold war was not about who would win.
The cold war was about if i lose, you lose too.
It was all about the victory not being worth it.
Nobody lost and thus everybody won.


Which was not what he said...
And there were losses to the Cold War (the USSR bankrupted itself (whether politically or financially) out of existence, after all - though there were other factors as well)... Not everyone Won (nor did everyone lose), as you indicate (as much as you can win or lose the Cold War - since there was actually no physical warfare between the major players going on, per se). If you just look at the two major players involved, well, there WAS a Winner and a Loser. smile.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 17 2014, 09:13 AM) *
you can *try* to call in government favours. but odds are good, the other megas also are owed many government favours. collectively, they probably are owed more than you. and the people you're asking for help know that you're going to burn, and that the people you're asking them to tick off are going to still be around.

now, some people may be loyal enough to you to do something as stupid as making a bunch of megacorporations angry at them on your behalf when you're no longer around. but not most.

You don't need much, just call in an old favor and stuff gets tied up in red tape forever. And even the smallest megacorp can bribe officials with more money than they've ever dreamed. Normally this wouldn't be profitable, but as a dying gasp?
QUOTE
as to dumping stocks, yes that is a possibility. depending to some extent on the corp, that is... some of them have more stock tied up in the hands of people unwilling to trade than others. and of course, if those in power can manage to buy up the stocks, they can secure their own position even further (and ultimately, since the plummeting value is artificial, it will eventually correct itself).

Damage will be done, though. Every corporation relies on its stock value for quick cash gains, so triggering a temporary crash would cause lasting damage. What's more, if you make another company vulnerable enough, the others will smell blood in the water, and go after them too.
QUOTE
also, that presumes that an omega order against a AAA doesn't automatically trigger all stock exchanges being shut down to prevent this sort of thing from happening. but that's just speculation. it *is* a pretty obvious target, though.

And that would be suicide. Corporations worldwide rely on stock exchanges for a lot of their money. The easiest way to raise cash is to sell and trade stock; but without an active exchange, you effectively can't do that. So all of a corp's assets that are tied up in stock would be, for the duration, utterly useless and worthless.
QUOTE
but again, this presumes that the executive who could give that order is exclusively loyal to aztechnology to the point of being willing to pretty much guarantee their own death. if the executive instead decides that they'd rather be in a position to get a nice cushy job as an executive at whichever company takes over (which they can probably even influence, meaning they can buy that position of power with their complicity to the corporation of their choice), well, that's not likely to happen.

lots of people are fanatically loyal to their mega. most of the executives? probably more loyal to themselves.

Loyalty isn't required. Executives who gutted their own companies often get cushy jobs elsewhere, just look at the Forbes 500 for a few examples. What's more likely is that they'll guarantee their own nest eggs, and then do what it takes to screw over everyone else, including the competition.
Nath
QUOTE (Rad @ Jul 17 2014, 12:11 AM) *
Still, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of the AAA megas seeing their rivals as "too big to fail." Power vacuums are a thing, and trouble begets opportunity to those who know how to capitalize on it. I think gaining AAA status is less about the other corps seeing you as necessary for the continued functioning of the global economy and more about gaining the financial and political clout to walk up to the big boys' table and convince them you belong there--or at least keep them from tossing you out on your hoop.
There's no way any corporation would ever receive AAA rating if the requirement for it was to be able to stand up to the seven or more corporations who already were at the top of the food chain. Yamatetsu, Wuxing, Cross and Horizon clearly entered at the bottom of the list when they joined. If the existing AAA corporations were to have enough troubles for this to happen, why would the winner bother to join the losers' club, rather than enacting its own new world order?

Before trying to get AAA status, a corporation must first adhere to the Corporate Court as a A corporation, and receive AA rating. If it was just about raw strength, the Corporate Court could simply strip any rising corporations of its AA rating and extraterritorial privileges before they become a threat to them. Yet, they don't. Actually, when Wuxing received AA rating in 2047, it wasn't even strong enough to make the Cantonese, right next to the door of their Hong Kong powerbase, accept their freshly acquired extraterritorial privileges. The Corporate Court had to intervene and threaten the Cantonese of retaliations for failing to apply the Corporate Court regulations. That's because the clearly threat for the Corporate Court is losing relevance: the fundamental source of their power is the governments using their rating to say which corp is extraterritorial and which isn't. In turn, this require the corporation who with to be extraterritorial to submit to the Corporate Court rules.

Giving AA rating is small change, though it does give a clear advantage (competition-wise, it would be so easy for megacorporations to ask local governments to enact regulations that will crush their business, and pick up the pieces). Giving the AAA rating cost the existing one a lot of money and a lot of power. They don't do it for free, let alone because someone asked for it. If anything, the AAA corporations are willing to give other corporations AA and AAA rating as tools against each others. Shiawase, Renraku and MCT likely had Yamatetsu voted in to secure a Japanese voting block against their western counterparts. In turn, Ares, S-K and Aztechnology voted for Wuxing to support to Yamatetsu move against the other Japanese corporations on the Asian markets. Those who voted for Cross & Aurelius did it with the intent of primarily hurting Ares, and possibly Novatech as well. So to speak, you don't get to join the AAA league because you may be able to pick up a fight with another AAA. You get in because someone expects you to pick that fight.

QUOTE (Rad @ Jul 17 2014, 12:11 AM) *
If anything, the fall of Fuchi and Cross show that the megas are perfectly happy to take down one of their own should the opportunity arise.
Fuchi Industrial Electronics fell as the result of two things: 1) Renraku benefitting from Deus ex Machina (pun intended) technological development that were so advanced that Renraku engineers had a hard time replicating the feat after that person left, and 2) Fuchi own President/CEO and head of its American division divesting assets to another new company (which would become Novatech). The loss of nearly a third of its business did weaken Fuchi.
Then, Fuchi lost AAA rating because the divested assets included JRJ International, and technically JRJ originally received the rating, not Fuchi. When it happened in October 2059, the next election was locked (the seat up for renewal belonging to Aztechnology sole representative), opening a slot in june 2060 at the earliest. At that point, one of Fuchi remaining head decided to jump ship for Renraku, prompting the last one to join Shiawase. These events left them so weak that, less than a decade later, both had become the leading force inside their new respective megacorporation.

So, really, only Renraku had some role in Fuchi demise, and only because of unique circunstances for a plot that was supposed to make Renraku overshadow every other corporation.

About Cross Applied Technologies, I can't say. They killed the owner in a random aircrash, and had Ares taking over the company as the one liner. The closest thing to an explanation we ever got was suggestion of a inside job. At that point, 60% of the corporation belonged to a single individual, so it's not much about defeating a corporation than blackmailing that one guy.

QUOTE (Rad @ Jul 17 2014, 12:11 AM) *
Hell, three of the seven founding member of the corporate court have been bought out and absorbed by other companies.
JRJ International was taken over by Fuchi Industrial Electronics.

Keruba International was taken over by Renraku, which was a completely empty shell created for that sole purpose. It was a change of ownership, with little to actual change to management during the first decade. Renraku rose to the top of the new Matrix industry over technologies developped under Keruba name.

BMW, Saeder and Krupp belonged to the same corporation. The name change occured during a reshuffling. The corporation was taken over by Lofwyr, though it's not known when he started acquiring stock. It's supposed to be a dragon's show of force rather than a corporation's show of weakness.
FuelDrop
Imagine that today, the whole world declared war on the United States.
The US would go down, but it would do a LOT of damage before it did.

Each AAA is bigger than the USA, with a larger stake in the world economy to boot.

Look at the GFC triggered by one aspect of the US economy taking a dive. Now imagine the whole thing going down, two to three times. That's a AAA dying. It's not pretty.
FuelDrop
Imagine that today, the whole world declared war on the United States.
The US would go down, but it would do a LOT of damage before it did.

Each AAA is bigger than the USA, with a larger stake in the world economy to boot.

Look at the GFC triggered by one aspect of the US economy taking a dive. Now imagine the whole thing going down, two to three times. That's a AAA dying. It's not pretty.
Jaid
the AAAs are not military powers. they *could* be, if they wanted. but large standing military organizations are expensive to maintain, even more expensive to deploy, and make the neighbours unhappy about you, which makes them less likely to buy your stuff, which means they cost even more.

undoubtedly each mega has large security forces. if they wanted to, they could develop a permanent military organization. but they don't. it's expensive, it doesn't directly help the bottom line, and in fact tends to hurt the bottom line. when they need an army, they *hire* an army, for as long as they need it, because they typically don't need it for long (in some cases, hiring an army may take the form of persuading a nation to send in their army).

a corporate war will make a horrible mess of things, that is true, but it is far more likely to involve hundreds of banks than it is to involve hundreds of tanks.

yes, aztechnology will be able to hire shadowrunners through their shadow resources (presumably, anything that can be identified as part of their corporation will have any possible assets frozen, so expect their budget to be somewhat more limited than usual). but so can their enemies. all 9 of them. everything aztechnology can do, can be done by all 9 of their enemies too.
Cain
The AAA's all have substantial military forces. Desert Wars is all corp forces, IIRC national militaries don't get involved in it. Aztech has more than the usual amount, since they're effectively indistinguishable from the Azatlan forces. Considering most of a splatbook was dedicated to their forces, I'd say they have a really huge amount.

But you miss the point. Corporate war is about a lot more than military might. It'd be economic and political might as well. You wouldn't make it to AAA status if you didn't have a ton of that, so it's clear that an Omega versus an AAA is going to be tricky at best.

kzt
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 17 2014, 07:29 PM) *
yes, aztechnology will be able to hire shadowrunners through their shadow resources (presumably, anything that can be identified as part of their corporation will have any possible assets frozen, so expect their budget to be somewhat more limited than usual). but so can their enemies. all 9 of them. everything aztechnology can do, can be done by all 9 of their enemies too.

No, aztechnology owns a country of over a hundred million people, a country with a leading military. And that country is not a BRA member, so no other mega has major operations there. This is, oddly enough, not the situation the other megas are in. Aztechnology can deliver significant sized extremely formidable commando units via subs and long range aircraft, they don't need to hire runners to do that kind of crap because what they do in a war isn't intended to be deniable. It's intended to be an object lesson when they kill the CEO and the chair of Renraku, not some frigging mystery.
Jaid
you think that none of aztlan's many enemies won't join in the fight the moment aztechnology is declared the target of an omega order too? it wouldn't take much persuading at all for amazonia, the CAS, and probably a few others to escalate things from cold war to full-scale war if there was suddenly the prospect of getting backing from the other 9 megas? you realise that the japanese imperial army/navy/etc have invaded large swaths of the world basically because the japanese megas wanted them to, right?

aztechnology has close ties with a nation. so do various other megas, and the nation that aztechnology is closely tied with has plenty of enemies for the rest of the big 10 to persuade to start a war with them.

(also, i'm fairly sure at least some of the desert war units are actually mercenaries).

the megas don't maintain large conventional standing armies. they're expensive, and they don't earn money. they have security forces, and i would expect they each have some conventional military forces (if nothing else, a few of the larger mercenary companies are most likely owned by or closely affiliated with some of the big 10). in some cases (but most likely rare cases) those security forces will even include stuff like tanks, fighter/bomber jets, and submarines.

but if they don't have a pressing need to have a division of tanks at a corporate facility all the time, then having a division of tanks is a drain on resources that isn't earning them squat. they don't need conventional armies to threaten countries (their economic power can crush small countries and cripple large ones), and they don't need the heavy equipment to protect most of their locations because the far more typical threat to their facilities will come from lightly armoured infantry, possibly augmented (ie shadowrunners), and mostly in environments where tanks, jets, etc are not likely to be particularly helpful (having reasonably large numbers of light attack helicopters and similar, on the other hand, seems quite likely).

you don't need ICBMs to deal with shadowrunners or rioters or angry (but poorly equipped) locals. a few people with good quality armour and assault rifles is generally considered overkill (otherwise, why are most security forces given SMGs/pistols and don't even wear security armour let alone military grade armour?). if it isn't making them money, or saving them money, they won't have it. just like they don't put SOTA maglocks on every single door, or have the absolute best in scanning equipment at every security checkpoint, or build every building like it's a bomb shelter. they will use the minimum they can get away with, and in general, they can get away with having few or no regular military units just fine.
EKBT81
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 18 2014, 06:44 AM) *
No, aztechnology owns a country of over a hundred million people, a country with a leading military. And that country is not a BRA member, so no other mega has major operations there. This is, oddly enough, not the situation the other megas are in. Aztechnology can deliver significant sized extremely formidable commando units via subs and long range aircraft, they don't need to hire runners to do that kind of crap because what they do in a war isn't intended to be deniable. It's intended to be an object lesson when they kill the CEO and the chair of Renraku, not some frigging mystery.

A leading military which is, to my knowledge, already heavily engaged on several fronts, possibly to the point of overstretch.
And if Aztechnology were to pull off a hit against one AAA CEO, the other megas won't object-lesson them right back why?

I'll also point out that Aztech has already been the target of intercorp military action: Operation Reciprocity 2048. Which, while certainly limited in scale, was IIRC clearly intended as an "or else" by the other megas. And it didn't make the Azzies go into "kill the world" rampage mode. It made them go to the negotiating table.
Sengir
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 17 2014, 06:19 PM) *
An army unused is a useless army, and as the cold war showed, you do not have to be able to win a war to make sure that everybody else also loses the war. That is what we're talking about, and yes, they will do that if it comes to it!

Omega Order + 10 seconds: The ZO Gemeinschaftsbank declares a moratorium on all transactions involving Aztechnology corp scrip.
Omega Order + 30 seconds: An Ares negotiator enters the head office of MedíCarro North America and offers the CEO an equivalent of his old retirement fund in Ares Freedom Dollars
Omega Order + 30 minutes: HR reports that all employees have been issued a copy of the Ares company anthem
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 18 2014, 04:05 AM) *
Omega Order + 10 seconds: The ZO Gemeinschaftsbank declares a moratorium on all transactions involving Aztechnology corp scrip.
Omega Order + 30 seconds: An Ares negotiator enters the head office of MedíCarro North America and offers the CEO an equivalent of his old retirement fund in Ares Freedom Dollars
Omega Order + 30 minutes: HR reports that all employees have been issued a copy of the Ares company anthem


Omega Order + 2 seconds: Ripple-fired missiles from AZT defense satellites depart the weapon platforms ahead of the incoming weapons fire, fill the orbit of Earth with high-speed shrapnel.
Omega Order + 3 seconds: Those same satellites self-destruct, filling Earth Orbit with even more weapons fire.
Omega Order + 30 seconds: ICBMs launched from AZT surface installations streak skyward. Many get shot out of the sky, not all. Orbit is filled with even more chaff.
Omega Order +31 seconds: The Ares Negotiator and the CEO of MediCarro North America are shot in the backs of their heads by loyal deep-cover members of the Jaguar Guard. Lockdown is ordered, all non-AZT personnel are declared KoS at and in the vicinity of all AZT installations. Any members of AZT who have been in any kind of covert negotiation with any other mega, no matter how high up, have purge issues ordered for them, which are duly carried out.
Omega Order + 45 seconds: Use It or Lose It time for all orbital weapon systems. Thor Shots fall, everybody's arcologies are hit.
Omega Order + 60 seconds: Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank suffers massive hull damage as far more debris than its defenses can deflect (and you HAVE to Deflect, because a molten projectile is just as deadly in space,) Z-O is lost with all hands. The global system of stock markets begins to collapse as all faith is lost in the international trade currency, whose issuing body has just been rendered defunct.
Omega Order + 30 minutes: Nukes begin to fall, along with a host of other upleasantness, most of the Great Dragons retreat to their hidey-holes, the more warlike ones decide "fuck it, I'm not sitting out the end of the world" and get in on the carnage. The Immortal Elves whip up the strongest spirits and sorcery they can to shield their domains as everybody gets involved.

Omega Order + 30 days: The world is a scorched ruin, unfit for habitation by either man nor beast. Nuclear, biological, chemical, nanological, and astral scorched-earth policies have rendered most of the world's breadbasket areas absolutely inimitable to life. Seattle is a smoking crater, as is Denver, Tokyo, Washington, and, quite frankly, every other capital city. Orbit is completely unusable, ruined by a massive and intentional case of Kessler Syndrome, land lines have been severed, anything emitting a Signal 8 or stronger radio signal has been terminated by anti-radiation missiles. Metahumanity is cut off from each other. At this point, the only places with any semblance of the old civilizations are the underwater ecologies which evaded detection, the Mars bases (which will collapse in short order without resupply, which Is Not Coming,) and anywhere which was so unimportant to escape the first wave of WMDs and airstrikes that a Great Dragon subsequently decided to hole up in and protect personally.

Congratulations. You've brought about the end of the world as you know it!
FuelDrop
For those that doubt the above, remember that Aztechnology's business plan in the long term is (or maybe was):
1) Destroy the world.
2) Rule what remains.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 18 2014, 02:39 AM) *
[ Spoiler ]


Congratulations. You've brought about the end of the world as you know it!


Sorry... Just don't see it. *shrug*
Your scenario is not the only possible result. It is One POTENTIAL result, but that is it.
Your Shadowrun may work that way, but I would imagine not everyone's would. I know that our Table's would not.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jul 18 2014, 04:27 AM) *
For those that doubt the above, remember that Aztechnology's business plan in the long term is (or maybe was):
1) Destroy the world.
2) Rule what remains.


A SMALL faction of Aztechnology (a VERY small Faction) had that in mind. It is not the Majority Shareholder position.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2014, 09:46 AM) *
A SMALL faction of Aztechnology (a VERY small Faction) had that in mind. It is not the Majority Shareholder position.

Ah, but actually they are trying to sell this business plan to the sharedholders thanks to excellent PR with the sanitized version being:

1) Destroy the Competition.

2) Rule as the exclusive provider of all consumer goods.

Note how they failed to mention that everyone not working for the AZ is competition and did not go into detail about how they would 'destroy' it or how they are aiming to be the last biz standing, thus being the exclusive provider.

Most stockholders simply felt this is business lingo for aggressive marketing. biggrin.gif

Always check the fine print. devil.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 18 2014, 07:28 AM) *
Ah, but actually they are trying to sell this business plan to the sharedholders thanks to excellent PR with the sanitized version being:

1) Destroy the Competition.

2) Rule as the exclusive provider of all consumer goods.

Note how they failed to mention that everyone not working for the AZ is competition and did not go into detail about how they would 'destroy' it or how they are aiming to be the last biz standing, thus being the exclusive provider.

Most stockholders simply felt this is business lingo for aggressive marketing. biggrin.gif

Always check the fine print. devil.gif


Sounds like m... Ummm, The agenda for Ares. smile.gif
binarywraith
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 18 2014, 04:39 AM) *
Omega Order + 2 seconds: Ripple-fired missiles from AZT defense satellites depart the weapon platforms ahead of the incoming weapons fire, fill the orbit of Earth with high-speed shrapnel.
Omega Order + 3 seconds: Those same satellites self-destruct, filling Earth Orbit with even more weapons fire.
Omega Order + 30 seconds: ICBMs launched from AZT surface installations streak skyward. Many get shot out of the sky, not all. Orbit is filled with even more chaff.
Omega Order +31 seconds: The Ares Negotiator and the CEO of MediCarro North America are shot in the backs of their heads by loyal deep-cover members of the Jaguar Guard. Lockdown is ordered, all non-AZT personnel are declared KoS at and in the vicinity of all AZT installations. Any members of AZT who have been in any kind of covert negotiation with any other mega, no matter how high up, have purge issues ordered for them, which are duly carried out.
Omega Order + 45 seconds: Use It or Lose It time for all orbital weapon systems. Thor Shots fall, everybody's arcologies are hit.
Omega Order + 60 seconds: Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank suffers massive hull damage as far more debris than its defenses can deflect (and you HAVE to Deflect, because a molten projectile is just as deadly in space,) Z-O is lost with all hands. The global system of stock markets begins to collapse as all faith is lost in the international trade currency, whose issuing body has just been rendered defunct.
Omega Order + 30 minutes: Nukes begin to fall, along with a host of other upleasantness, most of the Great Dragons retreat to their hidey-holes, the more warlike ones decide "fuck it, I'm not sitting out the end of the world" and get in on the carnage. The Immortal Elves whip up the strongest spirits and sorcery they can to shield their domains as everybody gets involved.

Omega Order + 30 days: The world is a scorched ruin, unfit for habitation by either man nor beast. Nuclear, biological, chemical, nanological, and astral scorched-earth policies have rendered most of the world's breadbasket areas absolutely inimitable to life. Seattle is a smoking crater, as is Denver, Tokyo, Washington, and, quite frankly, every other capital city. Orbit is completely unusable, ruined by a massive and intentional case of Kessler Syndrome, land lines have been severed, anything emitting a Signal 8 or stronger radio signal has been terminated by anti-radiation missiles. Metahumanity is cut off from each other. At this point, the only places with any semblance of the old civilizations are the underwater ecologies which evaded detection, the Mars bases (which will collapse in short order without resupply, which Is Not Coming,) and anywhere which was so unimportant to escape the first wave of WMDs and airstrikes that a Great Dragon subsequently decided to hole up in and protect personally.

Congratulations. You've brought about the end of the world as you know it!


Omega Order + 6 Months: The Native American Nations go back to business as usual, finally done being screwed over by everyone involved.
Sengir
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 18 2014, 11:39 AM) *
Omega Order + 2 seconds: Ripple-fired missiles from AZT defense satellites depart the weapon platforms ahead of the incoming weapons fire, fill the orbit of Earth with high-speed shrapnel.
Omega Order + 3 seconds: Those same satellites self-destruct, filling Earth Orbit with even more weapons fire.
Omega Order + 30 seconds: ICBMs launched from AZT surface installations streak skyward. Many get shot out of the sky, not all. Orbit is filled with even more chaff.
Omega Order +31 seconds: The Ares Negotiator and the CEO of MediCarro North America are shot in the backs of their heads by loyal deep-cover members of the Jaguar Guard. Lockdown is ordered, all non-AZT personnel are declared KoS at and in the vicinity of all AZT installations. Any members of AZT who have been in any kind of covert negotiation with any other mega, no matter how high up, have purge issues ordered for them, which are duly carried out.
Omega Order + 45 seconds: Use It or Lose It time for all orbital weapon systems. Thor Shots fall, everybody's arcologies are hit.
Omega Order + 60 seconds: Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank suffers massive hull damage as far more debris than its defenses can deflect (and you HAVE to Deflect, because a molten projectile is just as deadly in space,) Z-O is lost with all hands. The global system of stock markets begins to collapse as all faith is lost in the international trade currency, whose issuing body has just been rendered defunct.
Omega Order + 30 minutes: Nukes begin to fall, along with a host of other upleasantness, most of the Great Dragons retreat to their hidey-holes, the more warlike ones decide "fuck it, I'm not sitting out the end of the world" and get in on the carnage. The Immortal Elves whip up the strongest spirits and sorcery they can to shield their domains as everybody gets involved.

And why exactly would the Azzies feel compelled to push the red button? Are ICMBs headed towards them?


And the Obscuro faction did not want the world to end at any costs, else they could just have started a nuclear exchange. But nukes cannot honor collaborators with power, unlimited access to hookers and blackjack in afterlife, or anything else the Enemy might have promised its cultists.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 18 2014, 01:52 PM) *
And why exactly would the Azzies feel compelled to push the red button? Are ICMBs headed towards them?


And the Obscuro faction did not want the world to end at any costs, else they could just have started a nuclear exchange. But nukes cannot honor collaborators with power, unlimited access to hookers and blackjack in afterlife, or anything else the Enemy might have promised its cultists.


You do realize that that's what an Omega Order means, right? It means "Everybody gang up on this corp/person/government/whatever and kill them fucking dead."

So yes. They would push the red button. And the green button, and the blue button, and the gray button, and the glowing button.
Stahlseele
If i go down, i take you with me into the grave. and have the land around said grave made uninhabitable for the next centuries to come.
Nath
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jul 18 2014, 02:05 AM) *
Imagine that today, the whole world declared war on the United States.
The US would go down, but it would do a LOT of damage before it did.

Each AAA is bigger than the USA, with a larger stake in the world economy to boot.
No. The US accounts for about one fifth of the world GDP, and one third of the world military spendings. The world is simply not enough to have eight to ten corporations who would each be bigger than the USA are. Besides, power is relative. The US are powerful because they're one order of magnitude ahead of the competition. China is closing the gap on the economical stage, and it already started to show.

As far as Corporate Download went, the Big Ten control 25% of the world wealth. Which isn't actually not that impressive when you know nowadays the ten largest banks (BNP Paribas, Deutsche Bank, HSBC Holdings, Barclays, Royal Bank of Scotland, Mitsubishi UFJ Financial, Crédit Agricole, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup and ICBC) already have assets that account for 19% of the world wealth.

The difference is the control over that power. The President of the United States or the President/CEO of a megacorporation actually don't yield most of their potential power. If POTUS wants to go at war with, say, Syria, he's actually going to have the operations stay pretty limited in scope, and cancel the whole thing if casualties start to pile up, because Congress. Now, as soon as someone strikes US soil (be it in Pearl Harbor or Manhattan), the president will have a virtually unlimited power to use US military might against the enemy. It works just the same for corporations. Damien Knight may be currently the President/CEO of Ares Macrotechnology, if loss start to accumulate, the other shareholders will get him voted out. If the survival of Ares and their dividends are at stake, he will get a lot more leeway. To put it another way, there's a lot more of firepower available when you're the one defending.

QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 18 2014, 05:50 AM) *
The AAA's all have substantial military forces. Desert Wars is all corp forces, IIRC national militaries don't get involved in it. Aztech has more than the usual amount, since they're effectively indistinguishable from the Azatlan forces. Considering most of a splatbook was dedicated to their forces, I'd say they have a really huge amount.
You can probably have an endless discussion on that topic, since canon sources directly contradict each other. In Corporate Shadowfiles, Nigel Findley stated Aztechnology has strictly no corporate military force at all, and borrowed everything from Aztlan. About two years later, in Aztlan, the same Nigel Findley wrote Aztlan armed forces were three times smaller than Aztechnology corporate forces, and borrowed heavily from them.
Nath
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 18 2014, 08:51 PM) *
You do realize that that's what an Omega Order means, right? It means "Everybody gang up on this corp/person/government/whatever and kill them fucking dead."
Legally speaking, the Corporate Court can only take decisions pertaining to corporations that adhere to it and the contracts those corporations passed. Persons and governments are out of reach for anything that does not belong to a contract with a corporation. So a person employed by a megacorporation, or a government facility leased to a corporation, can be subject to a Corporate decision, including an Omega Order. Otherwise, no.

Obviously, the Corporate Court has enough power to order the assassination of a person or overthrow a government, but they're not going to leave a paperwork trail or put a name on the process. The Omega Order enacted against a corporation, on the other hand, is a completely legal thing.
Cain
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 18 2014, 09:52 AM) *
And why exactly would the Azzies feel compelled to push the red button? Are ICMBs headed towards them?


And the Obscuro faction did not want the world to end at any costs, else they could just have started a nuclear exchange. But nukes cannot honor collaborators with power, unlimited access to hookers and blackjack in afterlife, or anything else the Enemy might have promised its cultists.

Well, if the Azzies (or any other AAA, really) felt like they were going down anyways, they'd push the button as a final screw you. Not just on missiles, either. They'd try to destroy everything they could, then run and hide, hoping to emerge later and rule over the remains.
Jaid
but aztechnology is not a person, does not have hands, and cannot push red buttons (so far as we know). the people in charge of those things, on the other hand, can find work elsewhere.

they're not destroying a person, they're destroying an organization, and the preferred method of destroying it is going to be incorporating it into their own organization (because they're a for-profit organization, and will by nature favour the solution to a problem that improves their bottom line).

honestly, if you don't panic and start launching nukes or firing bullets at the other guy, you're fairly likely to come out alive, and you even have a decent chance of staying employed if you're willing to co-operate (after all, they probably don't have enough loyal people ready to take every job in the corporations they just took control of who are also qualified to take those jobs. and if they do, odds are good that some other company will be looking to hire people with your skills and resume at some point).
Sengir
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 18 2014, 08:51 PM) *
You do realize that that's what an Omega Order means, right? It means "Everybody gang up on this corp/person/government/whatever and kill them fucking dead."

It means that the corp as such will die, and authorizes rivals to use any means at their disposal. It does not mean that they will do everything they are authorized to do. Even wars between nations are far more often about conquest (of resources, area, strategic locations...) than about sowing salt, and the corps have shred silly superstitions such as nationalism and venerate only their bottom line. Pouring money into routing something you could otherwise use yourself is simply a bad business decision, therefore it won't be done.
Jaid
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 18 2014, 07:24 PM) *
Pouring money into routing something you could otherwise use yourself is simply a bad business decision, therefore it won't be done.

well, won't be done often. i mean, out of all the various people in the organizations that received permission to destroy the offending corporation, there's bound to be a few idiots who have been promoted higher than they should have been, just waiting to get un-promoted by doing something stupid like that.
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 18 2014, 04:03 PM) *
but aztechnology is not a person, does not have hands, and cannot push red buttons (so far as we know). the people in charge of those things, on the other hand, can find work elsewhere.

they're not destroying a person, they're destroying an organization, and the preferred method of destroying it is going to be incorporating it into their own organization (because they're a for-profit organization, and will by nature favour the solution to a problem that improves their bottom line).

honestly, if you don't panic and start launching nukes or firing bullets at the other guy, you're fairly likely to come out alive, and you even have a decent chance of staying employed if you're willing to co-operate (after all, they probably don't have enough loyal people ready to take every job in the corporations they just took control of who are also qualified to take those jobs. and if they do, odds are good that some other company will be looking to hire people with your skills and resume at some point).

Yeah, and you don't think the other corps don't know that?

If someone declared war on Ares, do you think there's any chance Damien Knight would come out alive if they won? In a war, people die, and collaborators often have no future. What's more, the people with the power to push the button usually have the most to lose, so they won't just roll over.

This is an Omega Order, not a normal takeover. The Corporate Court has decreed that your ass is toast, and they'll reward the ones who do the most damage to you. The only thing you can do is do damage back, and that only as a dying act.
Jaid
wait, the fact that the other megas know that *not* running in and shooting everyone in sight is going to net them more profits is going to lead to people running in and shooting everyone in sight how?

if both sides know that the other side wants to capture resources intact (including human resources), that should make it *less* likely for anyone to be trying to shoot the others. the corp targeted by the omega order doesn't want to get shot as part of the takeover. the corp attacking the targeted corp doesn't want to make anyone decide that they're going to take as many people down with them when they die as possible.

so... since neither side *particularly* wants to start the bloodshed, how does that make it more likely for someone to start killing people left and right?
kzt
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 18 2014, 09:16 PM) *
so... since neither side *particularly* wants to start the bloodshed, how does that make it more likely for someone to start killing people left and right?

No, nobody wants to killed. Killing people isn't something that bothers the execs at Aztechnology.

What is more likely to deter you from pursuing a course of action hostile to Aztechnology? Knowing that there is a chance that your division might get acquired after the war is over, if by some bizarre set of coincidences Aztechnology wins; or knowing that there is a serious chance in the immediate future that you, your family and a few thousand of your closest friends will die if you or your company annoys Aztechnology? Which threat is more likely to make you decide to go on vacation starting right now?
Jaid
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 18 2014, 11:11 PM) *
No, nobody wants to killed. Killing people isn't something that bothers the execs at Aztechnology.

What is more likely to deter you from pursuing a course of action hostile to Aztechnology? Knowing that there is a chance that your division might get acquired after the war is over, if by some bizarre set of coincidences Aztechnology wins; or knowing that there is a serious chance in the immediate future that you, your family and a few thousand of your closest friends will die if you or your company annoys Aztechnology? Which threat is more likely to make you decide to go on vacation starting right now?


if you're in aztechnology and you know you've got about a 1% chance of winning, which one would YOU rather pick: the choice that's likely to make your company get added to the "unsafe investments" pile that has to be destroyed, or the one that gets your company added to the "valuable assets" pile that they want to do everything they can to incorporate into their own company?

turns out, being a homicidal lunatic that would rather go down in a blaze of glory than admit defeat does deter people from wanting to absorb your company, but it doesn't have a particularly negative impact on their desire to just send in a wave of drone bombers to give you that blaze of glory you so desperately wanted without losing more of their own resources than necessary.

if you don't start shooting people, they'll try to capture rather than kill your company, because that makes them richer. the only reason for them to go in guns blazing is if they don't believe they'll be able to add you to their organization. so you don't give them reason to think that, and they have no reason to issue a kill on sight order.

now, you certainly *can* choose to start a conventional war which you have absolutely no realistic hope of winning. undoubtedly, some people will be stupid enough to try that. those people will probably die, and depending on how lucky everyone gets, they may or may not manage to kill a lot of other people too without gaining a single thing from it.

everyone else will see the writing on the wall, and try to find a way to leverage the situation to their personal advantage. which, from most people's perspectives, does not typically involve getting themselves killed along with all of their friends and co-workers for no good reason.
Rad
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 17 2014, 06:29 PM) *
Everything aztechnology can do, can be done by all 9 of their enemies too.


This is also my main thought on how an omega order would go down. Whatever power a single mega has, the other megas combined have more of it, and once the word gets out that THE world power (the Corporate Court) has declared open season on you, allies become very hard to find even within your own organization.

I suspect the first step with an omega order would be to launch a coordinated series of shadow-attacks both by runners and corp forces, intended to cripple the assets, communications, and general functioning of the target corp as much as possible. Then you keep them on the defensive with continuous, nonstop sabotage, extractions, and wetwork. This of course happens before any formal announcement is made. Ideally the decision to approve an omega order would be made behind the target's back and carried out in secret for as long as possible. Basically, the day an omega order is declared against the Azzies is the day they wake up to find half of their shit doesn't work, and another 25% now works for someone else.

The Azzies want to call in their kill-sats to take out Zurich Orbital? Too bad they're all down with an acute case of worms. Step 1 in this kind of war would be about swiftly and quietly eliminating the enemy's ability to initiate a scorched-earth reprisal.

QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jul 16 2014, 11:37 PM) *
Another thing to keep in mind about the Azzies is that they're a corporation that took over the area where all the drug cartels come from. You think the cartels just rolled over when Aztechnology started stepping on toes and swinging their dicks around? So they are not only pretty tough militarily, but they have the capacity to deal with, and perhaps even out-evil, the Colombian and Mexican cartels that make the Capone organization look like Dudley Dooright.

I live right on the border. I hear stories all the time of finding 50+ bodies at a time missing their heads and hands (if they're lucky). People "stewed" in a burning 55-gallon drum of diesel for pissing off the cartels. These are some seriously psychotic motherfuckers and Aztechnology brought them to heel and probably learned a few of the more handy nasty tricks in the meantime. You fuck with Azzie and I fail to see even for a second where they don't quickly inform you of the tried and true, "Plata o Plomo". You take our bribes and work with us or we'll pump your bitchass full of bullets (again, if you're lucky).


Fun fact about those cartels? They didn't get brought to heel by Aztechnology, they became Aztechnology. Aztechnology was originally the ORO corporation, which was formed by the heads of the three most powerful drug cartels in South America at the time. So yeah, the Azzies are brutal as fuck. All the more reason to stab them in the back rather than declare war to their faces.

Also, those other Megacorporations? Some of them have ties to the Yakuza, the Triads, the Vory, ect. So don't expect the Azzies to have a monopoly on sheer ruthless brutality.

Anything the Azzies have, the rest of the corporate court has more of. (Except maybe blood magic. rotfl.gif )
Cain
QUOTE
if you're in aztechnology and you know you've got about a 1% chance of winning, which one would YOU rather pick: the choice that's likely to make your company get added to the "unsafe investments" pile that has to be destroyed, or the one that gets your company added to the "valuable assets" pile that they want to do everything they can to incorporate into their own company?

That depends. How likely are you to die anyway? Because if you're in certain positions in the losing corp, you're probably on the hit list no matter what happens. And since the people with enough power to press the button are also likely to be on the hit list, they're more apt to push the button.

What's more, not everyone will accept a demotion. Going from hotshot exec to middle management is a big hit to many people; and even then, they're never going to be fully trusted. Power can be addictive, and not everyone is willing to lose it.

QUOTE
if you don't start shooting people, they'll try to capture rather than kill your company, because that makes them richer. the only reason for them to go in guns blazing is if they don't believe they'll be able to add you to their organization. so you don't give them reason to think that, and they have no reason to issue a kill on sight order.

Not true. First, there's the aspect of "teaching people a lesson". The point of an Omega order isn't to destroy a company, it's to teach all the other corps a lesson about disobeying the Corporate Court. Second, there's no guarantee any one corp will get their assets, the spoils are divvied by the Court. You may as well destroy it, since that means the other megas can't get it either.

QUOTE
now, you certainly *can* choose to start a conventional war which you have absolutely no realistic hope of winning. undoubtedly, some people will be stupid enough to try that. those people will probably die, and depending on how lucky everyone gets, they may or may not manage to kill a lot of other people too without gaining a single thing from it.

You seem stuck on the conventional war angle. An Omega Order is anything but conventional, and real-world military action is only a part of it. They'd wage economic war too; if they're willing to take a huge loss, they can do a lot of damage that way too.
Jaid
*some* people might choose to go scorched earth. most will choose not to. if they think they're on a hit list, they're far more likely to get out with enough money to live comfortably and disappear to someplace nice. oh, there's no place that's completely beyond the corporate court's reach, but if it becomes easier to fake the person's death than to actually hunt them down to make an example, i doubt they'd bother hunting you down for much the same reason they don't hunt down shadowrunners. it doesn't make economic sense. heck, if you make it really easy for them by faking your own death, that just makes it even easier for them to decide not to hunt you down.
Cain
They don't hunt down shadowrunners because shadowrunners seldom know anything useful. People who employ shadowrunners-- e.g., corporate bigwigs-- are better targets. And who is the prime target in a corporate war?

And you missed the second half of scorched earth. If you don't retaliate during a corp war, the enemies can spend more resources tracking you down. If you go scorched earth, the enemies are too busy licking their own wounds, allowing you to escape and possibly make a comeback. There are real-world survivalists and politicians who think this way.
kzt
QUOTE (Rad @ Jul 19 2014, 01:56 AM) *
Anything the Azzies have, the rest of the corporate court has more of. (Except maybe blood magic. rotfl.gif )

Ok, which other AAA have an entire country (with a formidable military) that they have total control over? Aztlan is a puppet of Aztechnology. The California mutiny blew up the relationship between the IJ military and the Japancorps, and they were never that under their thumb anyhow.

It should also be pointed out that Aztlan is not a BRA signatory, so there are essentially no outside corp assets in Aztlan. However Aztechnolgy is the second largest mega, so it has operations all across the world. I'm sure that most stuffer-shack (etc) employees are not Aztechnololgy/Aztlan covert intel or operators, but some certainly are.
Jaid
again, you don't want to give anyone motivation to kill you. you go scorched earth, they need to kill you as fast as possible to reduce the amount of damage you can do. if you have secrets that they want, you have a bargaining chip, and all of a sudden if it looks like you died nobody knows if someone else got to you first and extracted (or is extracting) your secrets, [edit]and they can't tell [/edit] if you got away, because whoever did certainly wouldn't want to share the spoils with anyone else. scorched earth is not a good way to hide. scorched earth is a good way to get yourself put to the top of the "kill immediately" list, where they need to be absolutely certain you didn't get away because you're a complete wacko who may pull this kinda of crap again.

and uhh... in the event that any of the megas have done anything awful enough to justify a full-blown omega order (bearing in mind that it will inevitably lead to some destruction, since like i said there will always be a few idiots who are dumb enough to think they can take on the entire world), they've probably earned the emnity of most of the world governments. if it's aztechnology that's the target, you don't need to force their enemies into killing them. you just have to let them know that they're not going to have the resources to protect their borders any more, and watch what happens. heck, most world governments are in bed with the megas to some extent, most of them to a rather large extent, and in the case of many of the smaller ones, probably almost entirely controlled by some mega or another.

when there's 9 megacorporations that are all applying pressure to you to act in a certain way, no matter what government you are, you probably suddenly get a very strong desire to act in that way. when it's something you already wanted to do anyways (like invading aztlan, which is something several nations or organizations would love to do), you don't even have to lean very hard.

and since all of the megas are sure to have their enemies, not just aztechnology, this pretty much applies for any mega, not just when aztechnology is the target.

(also, last i checked, the various megas do own stuff in aztlan... just not overtly. not letting the other corps own anything in aztlan is what got the big A in trouble in the first place, and they don't want to provoke that happening again).
Rad
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 19 2014, 07:25 PM) *
Ok, which other AAA have an entire country (with a formidable military) that they have total control over? Aztlan is a puppet of Aztechnology. The California mutiny blew up the relationship between the IJ military and the Japancorps, and they were never that under their thumb anyhow.

It should also be pointed out that Aztlan is not a BRA signatory, so there are essentially no outside corp assets in Aztlan. However Aztechnolgy is the second largest mega, so it has operations all across the world. I'm sure that most stuffer-shack (etc) employees are not Aztechnololgy/Aztlan covert intel or operators, but some certainly are.


It's not that any single AAA has more resources than Aztechnology, it's that all of them together have more resources of every kind that they can bring to bear than Aztechnology. The Azzies have one country thoroughly in their pocket, sure, but the rest of the corporate court will be able to motivate every other government in the 6th world to get in on the smackdown. And again, it's not just about military might. What happens to the Azzies when every government contract outside Aztlan goes to other companies and not theirs? When every little bureaucratic decision from zoning permits to trade embargoes suddenly goes against them and their paperwork continuously gets "lost" or "held up?" Aztlan doesn't allow any non-Aztechnology businesses to operate in their country, so they can't even do the same thing back. Suddenly their nation becomes an island to itself, beset on all sides and cut off from the resources of the rest of the world.

Keep in mind, each of the Megas rely, to some extent, on the rest of the corporate court to uphold their legal privileges like extraterritoriality. What happens to a AAA when the corporate court not only isn't backing you up, but is openly hostile?

Remember, laws and treaties are just words. Having extraterritorial status is not a magic force field that prevents government forces from storming in and arresting/shooting/blowing up your employees. What it does do is allow you to take whatever security measures you see fit to prevent that kind of thing on your property, and give you the ability to bitch about any violations to the corporate court, who will use their combined power to levy punishment against the offending party.

Any shadowrunner can tell you the security measures at most corp facilities are not going to stop an army, (didn't stop them, why would it stop guys in milspec?) and the corporate court is unlikely to hear your grievance if they're currently gunning for you.

Hell, the other nations/corporations could just refuse to recognize Azzie citizenship/travel visas, and refuse entry into non-corp territory--which means good luck traveling to or from any corporate holdings outside of Aztlan. Airports and suborbitals would be off-limits, and even your own corporate vehicles would have to fly under the radar to avoid being shot down by the local military or other corporate forces. Good luck defending your corporate holdings outside Aztlan when you now have to smuggle troops and equipment through hostile territory just to get to them.

Anything less than an arcology where the employees live on-site would shut down almost immediately, and the arcologies themselves would stand only as long as they could endure a siege.

Also, the Azzie entrenchment with the Aztlan government is going to be a liability as much as a benefit. The other corps will be quick to use non-corporate forces like mercs, runners, and governments whenever possible to reduce their potential losses. If a UCAS strike team or a group of SIN-less gutter rats get geeked then that's a whole lot of personnel, hardware, and training the corps didn't have to pay for--and don't have to pay now even if the job was successfully completed. If an Aztlan military team get's taken out, those are Azzie resources that have been lost.
Cain
QUOTE
again, you don't want to give anyone motivation to kill you. you go scorched earth, they need to kill you as fast as possible to reduce the amount of damage you can do. if you have secrets that they want, you have a bargaining chip, and all of a sudden if it looks like you died nobody knows if someone else got to you first and extracted (or is extracting) your secrets, [edit]and they can't tell [/edit] if you got away, because whoever did certainly wouldn't want to share the spoils with anyone else. scorched earth is not a good way to hide. scorched earth is a good way to get yourself put to the top of the "kill immediately" list, where they need to be absolutely certain you didn't get away because you're a complete wacko who may pull this kinda of crap again.

They're already on the hit list, just by being the heads of a corp with an Omega Order levied against it. When Cross went down, Lucien Cross knew there was no way he'd survive it, even if he decided to roll over. All he could do was cause as much damage as he could on his way out.

I'll bring up the Cold War again. If things went to the brink, even if the US was sure they'd lose, do you think that any one would seriously consider surrender? Or Russia, if things went the other way? No one even considered that possibility, for good reason-- it wasn't going to happen.

QUOTE
and uhh... in the event that any of the megas have done anything awful enough to justify a full-blown omega order (bearing in mind that it will inevitably lead to some destruction, since like i said there will always be a few idiots who are dumb enough to think they can take on the entire world), they've probably earned the emnity of most of the world governments. if it's aztechnology that's the target, you don't need to force their enemies into killing them. you just have to let them know that they're not going to have the resources to protect their borders any more, and watch what happens. heck, most world governments are in bed with the megas to some extent, most of them to a rather large extent, and in the case of many of the smaller ones, probably almost entirely controlled by some mega or another.

First, you're assuming that Aztlan has any actual power over Aztech. From what I recall, it's the other way around.

Second, you're way underestimating political cronyism. Right now, Wal-Mart is the largest retailer in the United States. They're also firmly against unions and raising the minimum wage. By a coincidence, politicians who get support from them are also against unions and raising the minimum wage, even in districts where raising the minimum wage is a a popular choice.

QUOTE
when there's 9 megacorporations that are all applying pressure to you to act in a certain way, no matter what government you are, you probably suddenly get a very strong desire to act in that way. when it's something you already wanted to do anyways (like invading aztlan, which is something several nations or organizations would love to do), you don't even have to lean very hard.

Not supported by the evidence. Dow Chemicals is a modern megacorp, with a record for producing war chemicals, overly toxic farm chemicals, cancer-causing breast implants, and a horrific environmental record. There's been many times when their competition started to circle, smelling blood in the water, and tried to take them down. But they're still here, and strong as ever, thanks in part to their many connections with the US government.

Or, Monsanto. As a little known fact, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas was a Monsanto attorney for a number of years. And at the Supreme Court level, there's a lot of lobbying by corporate activists, especially when an opposing company has a case before them. However, despite the fact that a Justice who worked for a company is expected to recuse himself from a case involving them, and despite the fact that their competitors pushed hard, Clarence Thomas has voted in favor on Monsanto every single time one of the cases came before him.
Jaid
so all these ways that corporations are able to manipulate governments is supposed to persuade me that aztechnology has more influence over every government in the world than the other 9 megas combined how?

if corporations can already heavily manipulate governments today, and the world of shadowrun is worse, then there are still *9* corporations applying pressure to governments to screw over aztechnology, and only one corporation applying pressure to favour aztechnology. if corporate pressure is so powerful and effective, then aztechnology (or whichever other corporation is targeted by the omega order) is more screwed, not less.

it's 9 against 1, and if you go scorched earth you are encouraging them to use imprecise weapons because it will save them more money in the long run to inflict collateral damage to prevent you from causing more collateral damage.

if you want to live, you fake your death and let everyone try to figure out which of probably hundreds or even thousands of suspects killed you, bearing in mind that if any of them had captured you they wouldn't want to admit it to any of the rest, so faking your own death will look about the same as any other mega faking your death to cover for their capture of you.

some people will be stupid and try scorched earth. those people will find the earth scorched right out from underneath them faster than you can blink. most will decide that it's not a good idea to pick a fight that you have no chance of winning just so that you can make sure that someone else suffers too.
kzt
Aztechnology CREATED Aztlan. It's a puppet of Aztechnology, just like the "Donetsk Peoples Republic", whose leader is a Russian intelligence officer, is a puppet of Russia.

This gives AZT a lot more influence over Aztlan than other megas have over other governments.

Sure, over time, things will not go great for Aztechnology/Aztlan. "Quantity has a quality all its own", to quote Stalin, but making it a long war doesn't exactly favor a corporation who has to explain to the shareholders why they are not being paid a dividend and the stock falling as the corp sells assets to fight this war. I can pretty much assure you that this question is not going to asked by the Aztechnology "shareholders".
Cain
QUOTE
so all these ways that corporations are able to manipulate governments is supposed to persuade me that aztechnology has more influence over every government in the world than the other 9 megas combined how?

if corporations can already heavily manipulate governments today, and the world of shadowrun is worse, then there are still *9* corporations applying pressure to governments to screw over aztechnology, and only one corporation applying pressure to favour aztechnology. if corporate pressure is so powerful and effective, then aztechnology (or whichever other corporation is targeted by the omega order) is more screwed, not less.

How many corporations do you think have an interest in GMOs? I can't even count; even if we just focus on the ones at the megacorp level, there are lots of companies who are bigger than Monsanto who want them to lose their patents. They apply all the pressure they can to every politician; but because Clarence Thomas is loyal to them, they effectively win every single case that goes to the Supreme Court. Political loyalty and cronyism outweighs raw money.
Jaid
nobody has declared all-out war on monsanto.

nobody is using deniable assets to assassinate their pet supreme court judge, either.

and again, most megacorps will have plenty of people just *itching* to put a dagger in their back. it's not much of a push to get them on your side.

and if a megacorp has done something bad enough to justify an omega order, it will probably be even easier. i mean, think about it: by now, every single one of the megas must have knowledge of Ares' association with insect spirits. it's all over the shadows. worth an omega order? nope. no big deal. how about aztechnology. pretty much everyone knows they practice blood magic. lofwyr, at the very least, probably knows exactly what they were up to exactly, and fully comprehends the implications of the horrors arriving. worth the effort of pushing for an omega order? nope. we're talking about organizations that don't bat an eyelash over human rights violations or mass murders or drug trafficking (so long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to make money) or slavery. who probably even engage in those things themselves to various degrees (behind various subsidiaries that don't have their name attached to them and so forth to avoid any risk of public backlash).

basically, if you are a AAA and have earned an omega order (hell, if you are *anyone* and have earned an omega order), it is because you represent a major threat to everyone in ways that will probably destroy the world economy anyways.

so if aztechnology does something compelling enough to get an omega order declared on them, when they are one of the stronger voices on the corporate court itself, they are doing something that is *SO* bad for business that everyone else is willing to risk a corporate war on them, bearing in mind that one of the main reasons the corporate court exists is to prevent corporate wars that are bad for business. whatever you have done to earn an omega order, it is *worse* than entering a corporate war.

so no, nobody's shareholders are going to be asking why you're putting resources into destroying them. because by definition, if it wasn't cheaper to go to war, they wouldn't be going to war.

furthermore, considering whatever they're doing is so bad for the world economy that it's worth starting a corporate war against someone who is no slouch, most likely every government in the world will be looking to destroy the target as well, because if it's a threat to the economy of a powerhouse like saeder-krupp or renraku, you better believe it's going to absolutely *crush* the economy of most countries in the world, and probably extend into severely damaging the economies of the larger ones as well.

whatever you've done to earn an omega order is not something trivial that everyone can just brush off, especially if you're one of the big ten, because that comes with a big deterrent to wanting to pick a fight with you. it's not going to be hard to persuade neutral parties to join forces against the guy who had an omega order declared on them. if you pulled a soylent green and made a food product that was made of humans, the other corporations wouldn't bat an eyelash, except to start up a marketing campaign to discredit the competing brand and promote their own version of the product, and be jealous that they hadn't thought of it first considering the potential ghoul market would be huge (though they'd probably carefully keep it from being associated with their main product lines).
Cain
And if you have done something worthy of an Omega Order, that means the rest of the world doesn't think you deserve to live. You're not going to survive, which means you may as well spit in their eye on the way down. Thank you, you just proved our point.
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