When game designers use crutches to prop up the ugly crutches they had used earlier to support a lame decision made to fix a previous atempt to simplify the game process and to make the world look more sifi-realistic... Well... We have a proverb that can be translated as: Father should bit his son not for gambling but for gambling more trying to win the money back.

Topics never stay to the topic)))



BTW, any notice about 5e Matrix book release?

Yeah, I had no issues with a Comlink crossbreed that would be required to make it work as a better hacking device against the new security protocols of SR5. Hell, my Cyberlogician in SR4 crafted the equivalent of a Cyberdeck to better hack with anyways, so I get that divide. But there was absolutely no reason to go back to the hard division of RCC/Deck/Comlink. It is a regression of technology that makes no sense whatsoever. Want to hack, take a Comlink, add some Sleaze and Attack modules and bang, now you can hack. Most people are not going to invest the required amount of money to do so, and you have your hacker/user divide in the new paradigm. The pendulum swung to far the other way, when it should have stopped somewhere in the middle . *sigh*

Anyone who wants to be able to show stuff from the Matrix to anyone without a network connection or other interface devices?


So this of all things does not make sense to you (you know, a device becoming smaller for having its keyboard, screen, casing and batteries removed) - but the rest of 5e Matrix does?

Like maybe having Commlinks run Common Programs (which do not make any sense being "common" if the hardware needed to run them is highly illegal hacking-only tools)?

you can do that with a commlink. you don't need to spend 50,000+ nuyen to show someone stuff from the matrix, you can just use a 100 nuyen piece of hardware for that. in fact, for a little over 1/10th the price, you can actually get a commlink that is massively superior to a low end cyberdeck in the field of showing people stuff from the matrix.

Eh, in the balance I'm in favor of the Rigger/Decker separation coming back, and especially in favor of Technomancers being kicked out of rigging. 5e's absurdly dumb 'always on' wireless Matrix already gives deckers plenty to do, no sense in also handing them superior firepower to the Sams as well.

Edit : Doublepost

This would have been my personal preference, for what it's worth. You should basicly have three computers that all spin out of the same core concept.

COMMLINK (And Rigger Decks)
Has a rating, which determines how powerful it is, and is rated with a Processor, a Firewall, and no other ratings. This is pretty much what we have now, only I'd also allow for programs to be run on them, because, well, they should. Thus, if you had a rating 4 Commlink, and could get your hands on a sleaze program and a codebreaking program, you could deck. Badly! But you could deck. (Programs would also have ratings, by the by) ... most people would use common use programs to do stuff. Commlinks would be unrestricted (obviously).

SECURITY DECK (Might also include stronger Rigger decks)
In addition to the Processor and Firewall of a commlink, the Ssecurity Deck adds Evasion, letting it swat aside program sthat are designed to mess with it. This is what your typical security firm would have, like a Lone Star Matrix Officer, or a spider at a corporate facility. Evasion is your "combat" stat, letting you reduce damage or even not get hit by attacks. Adding this third attribute would make a computer more expensive. (The old ratio was to double it, which sounds about right.) These would be Restricted, since they're ostenably for security purposes, but there'd probably be some underground Matrix fighting arenas. Normally non-lethal, but the Yakuza might have secret "black rings" where would-be deckers can battle to the death for big prizes (and possible recruitment).

CYBERDECK
And here's what everybody pays for... the CYberdeck. This one would have a fourth attribute, Stealth, which is HIDDEOUSLY illegal. It gets you out of corporate control and able to be truly free on the Matrix, leaving no trace of your activities and allowing you to slip past security that's supposed to keep people out. This is the defining part of a Cyberdeck, The Chip that makes it what it is, and they're boith terribly Forbidden and expensive. Computers aren't designed to run so many attributes, however, so you'd see limiter put into place: You get as many attribute points as your Rating X 3, with non allowed to be higher than your Rating, to split between Processing, Firewall, Evasion, and Stealth (if, of course, you have those two) ... for official decks, no problem, as you can max out every stat and have room to spare, but once you put on Stealth, you have to be careful with your allocation. A typical Cyberdeck might be Rating 4, with 3's in every attribute, and would be much more expensive than a Rating 3 (or Rating 4!) security deck that could meet, or beat, it in open combat. That's the price for being a ghost in the machine. (Speaking of price, this chip would again at least double the machine's cost, probably more akin to triple. It's the step that defines a Decker and should be priced accordingly.)

PROGRAMS
Programs would come in three flavors, the common use (which are legal, natch), the security use (restricted), and the hacking programs (always forbidden) ... Figuring out what programs you could run at any time would be a juggling act, since you'd never have deep enough pockets for everything you wanted at once. (Go in sneaky with codebreakers? You're in trouble if a fight starts. Gear up for combat? You glow like a nova and everyone knows where you are. Etc etc.) ... keep teh series of trade-offs feel alive.

Programs would come in ratings, ranging from 1-12, with the cost taking a big jump on a regular basis. (A rating 6 program shouldn't cost twice a Rating 3, but more like four, five, or more times as expensive) ... and there should be a fairly large number of them. This lets deckers build up their arsenal slowly, snapping up programs here or there as money comes available, rather than having to save up a fortune to drop into a machine all at once. Rating 6 is where chargen would top out, and the Matrix book is where a bajillion new programs and program options could be placed.

Once you have the core design laid out, prices in mind, and an understanding of where to go, you have a system that invites everyone to use the Matrix some (commlinks! Communication! Rigger controls!) but that really opens up for dedicated users (Deckers and Technomancers) in ways that are available, but difficult to reach, for the rest. You don't want everyone on the team to be sporting Exploit 10 for goodness sakes, but everyone should have access to a basic Browse program.

Lastly? I know it'd tick off a lot of fans, but I'd go back to uncrackable software. The old days had programs "reflected" onto datachips, allowing them to be used but not copied, preventing a decker from just handing out stuff to everyone he knows and having free entry into the field. It's a good reflection of today's "Just Torrent It" culture, but it flies against the oppressive nature of the corps and how they've locked the Matrix down and ive more strength to the "Information should be free!" Decking crowd. I'm not sure if the "reflection" thing would still fly, so I'd probably sell it more as a service/cloud thing. You don't actually GET these programs when you 'buy' them, you're given access to a Matrix-based one that you log in to via whatever buzzword replaces The Cloud. Heck, probably just "The Matrix". So, as you buy upgrades, you get access to better utilities. It's kind of like using Nexus-Lexus if you're a journalist; it's a service that you pay for that gives you results you couldn't otherwise get. Thuse, Browse, Edit, and so on are really just using Matrix architecture to do things for you. You don't search the web, you use Google or Yahoo or Bing. You don't write up documents at home, you use GoogleDocs, and so on. Move things online, embrace the "Renter" culture, and probably expand the Lifestyle options to include common use programs for free as part of your monthly bills. (Thus, as a squatter, you have Common 1, Low you have Common 2, and so on.)

I haven't figured out how to adapt that last bit to hacking programs, however. I mean, there's Hacker House and all, so it *could* work, but it'd be weird. Of course, it would also encourage people to write their own code, both to save money and to give freebies away to friends instead of being slaved by The Man.

The whole process would be a lot of work, but it reflects a lot of the older ways these things were done but could be placed over the modern game without too much trouble. It might make sense, it might not, but that's how it'd work in my head, for whatever that's worth.

But that's not where we're at, so, it's all just dust in teh wind.

I like the way you have Decks configures in your headspace (likely how I would end up doing it as well), Wakshaani... Not so sure I like the way programs are reflected, though (ratings and all that, I really want to get away from actual ratings on programs). Seems very reminiscent of Cyberpunk2020, though, which I really did like, way back when, so I could be brought around.

Yeah, the whol ething is in a pre-alpha configuration. Notes on notebook paper in my brainstorm folder that might get turned into things down the road. The bigger problem, here, is that this format is a throwback to 2nd ed, which had a radically different rule-set for how decks/decking works. Giving programs a rating, plus a rating for the deck, then looks at the "Stats + skill, gear = limits" part and grunts. If you take ratings away from programs, then it gets tricky asigning a cost to things... why would FastJack's rating 12 face-shredding attack program cost the same as L33t H4ck3rz's 4w3z0me D34th Blasta!'s rating 2 attack program?

If you use the processor in place in Logic, which would make sense (Processor + Skill, limit of program), then you have the potential for idiot-savant Deckers again, like the Logic 1 Troll with a great deck that hacks everything for them. That's bad design. My first instinct is to say "Limit is your Mental Limit or Program Rating, whichever is lower), but that'd be a bit of a rules clash with assorted guns and the physical limit. That bugs me, and that's why I'm a fluff guy not a crunch guy. Still, the idea that a brilliant decker is limited by his machine/programs, while a crappy decker with a great machine is limited by his brainpower, has an appeal to it.

When all the numbers are together (And those I won't be dropping in here, since I'd like to refine this enough to present upstairs sometime), my goal would be to have a Rating 2 Cyberdeck and matching programs total around 30-40K, a normal Rating 4 deck 100K-ish, and an "OMG amazing!" rating 6 deck around 300K, so that each matches a level of resources as a major investment, but still leavs room for other stuff, like cybernetics and assorted gear. I *think* it's gathering up around there now, but, again, pre-alpha, so numbers are subject to change. (That said, kitbashing your commlink into an emergency deck would only be a couple grand, so you'd have room for street-level gangers to have *some* kind of decking power, but boy it'd suck. Great for scaring Pops when you take over his store's AR feed or getting free drinks froma vending machine, not much past that.)

Kind of along the lines of what I was thinking (mostly)... but since I am not running a game, I don't have to worry about it all that much. It just annoys, is all.
A lot of things in SR5 annoy...