Full Version: Ghouls!
Maybe he used the astral-barrier plants instead of doing wards? That'd be more Deus's speed.
Or possibly some unknown property of AI gives it the ability to use magic or some increibly powerful spirit type thing cut him a deal.
-The- Seattle city spirit? Hey Denver has one, why can't Seattle!? 
Possible Dues used a Warding foci or had the branded develop one.
If every branded mage conjured 5 spirits at Force 6 one could easily reach the levels desired in a relatively short time.
How many people were trapped in the Arc? 10,000? 100 mages with 500 spirits...
If every branded mage conjured 5 spirits at Force 6 one could easily reach the levels desired in a relatively short time.
How many people were trapped in the Arc? 10,000? 100 mages with 500 spirits...
Let's be generous and assume they were all Magic/Force 4. With 600 working in tandem, they'd be able to create a single Force 4 ward of 120,000 cubic meters in four hours. That's 360,000 cubic meters in one 12-hour day and 2.5 million cubic meters in a week of those 12-hour days.
And that's without any focus and a hoard of weak magicians and spirits.
And that's without any focus and a hoard of weak magicians and spirits.
Ghouls and spirits:
As someone who's ran against this problem before, here's the skinny. Yes, I can fight them in Astral Combat, and sometimes I can go first. But I have to use unaugmented Body and Strength, and I do (Str)M. It may even be stun, but even if it's not, it's crappy. I can't use spurs or razors or any mundane weapon because they don't really exist on the Astral.
A Force 6 Elemental, for security purposes, is easy as hell to summon and even to friggin' Bond-to-site. If a place has Astral security, they have these things, at least Force 6, and that's an even match for me. More than one and I'm screwed. These damned things can run a six-meter circumference circle around me 1000 times a second, I can't chase them if they run to tell the Mage, and I'm not equipped to banish them, only to disrupt.
Trust me, being Dual Natured and mundane is not an advantage against Spirits.
I will say that the Assensing advantage is very nice, as well as being able to see incoming Spirits before they materialize. I can sense Background count (kinda nice, except I'm IN it) and get a general idea of how cybered people are.
But all I can do with Wards is stay behind. If there's a Ward on all entrances to a security building, or to the target inside a complex, I'm screwed. I have to sit it out, and sitting out combat or NPC interaction usually costs Karma.
That said, let me reiterate that I'm happy with being a Ghoul. It's been fun. But let's not pretend that being Dual Natured and mundane is any more than a serious net disadvantage. The only thing I'm saying is that Ghouls should NOT cost 10 BP. Maybe 5. Definitely free, as a character option.
As someone who's ran against this problem before, here's the skinny. Yes, I can fight them in Astral Combat, and sometimes I can go first. But I have to use unaugmented Body and Strength, and I do (Str)M. It may even be stun, but even if it's not, it's crappy. I can't use spurs or razors or any mundane weapon because they don't really exist on the Astral.
A Force 6 Elemental, for security purposes, is easy as hell to summon and even to friggin' Bond-to-site. If a place has Astral security, they have these things, at least Force 6, and that's an even match for me. More than one and I'm screwed. These damned things can run a six-meter circumference circle around me 1000 times a second, I can't chase them if they run to tell the Mage, and I'm not equipped to banish them, only to disrupt.
Trust me, being Dual Natured and mundane is not an advantage against Spirits.
I will say that the Assensing advantage is very nice, as well as being able to see incoming Spirits before they materialize. I can sense Background count (kinda nice, except I'm IN it) and get a general idea of how cybered people are.
But all I can do with Wards is stay behind. If there's a Ward on all entrances to a security building, or to the target inside a complex, I'm screwed. I have to sit it out, and sitting out combat or NPC interaction usually costs Karma.
That said, let me reiterate that I'm happy with being a Ghoul. It's been fun. But let's not pretend that being Dual Natured and mundane is any more than a serious net disadvantage. The only thing I'm saying is that Ghouls should NOT cost 10 BP. Maybe 5. Definitely free, as a character option.
Just as a bit of a correction, you're not limited by your unaugmented Physical Attributes. You get to use your normal Physical Attributes instead of your Mental Attributes or some combo of the two. If you have Strength 10 due to Muscle Replacement, you have Strength 10 on both planes. That's the point of being dual-natured. The only change is that you don't get the benefit of non-natural armor against purely astral attacks.
Although I can understand his mistake (using cyberware in the Astral is a bit odd), my GM owes me some explanation!
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| Hmm, have to look at my BBB when I get home... If so, that makes powers like Concealment kind of worthless. "Sir, security hasn't found any runners, but there's a hearth spirit walking around in Marketing!" I figured it had to be physical to use its more physical powers - like engulf, flamethrower, noxious breath, etc. |
It does have to be physical to use physical powers. It also has to be physical to any power to affect any non-astral form except for it's conjuror.
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| Interesting: You are comparing beginning characters who can have a max of 6 in a skill to what in our games would be considered a big-ass spirit probably summoned by a kick-ass initiate. Spirits are easily at force 6? Not usually. High force elementals a) cost more money to summon b) get fewer services for the money c) and above force 6, cause _physical drain_. Hermetics don't care about normal drain, but physical drain could lay you up for a while. |
Money isn't much of an issue if the mage can use enchanting. Even if it is, a higher-force elemental is a security expense most companies seem willing to spend on in the books. Do you also have your Security teams armed with Holdout Pistols because SMGs cost more?
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| High force nature spirits a) get fewer services b) cause annoying drain even if its only stun. |
I agree. But it doesn't particularly matter since they're also much more useful. And, as pointed out, the
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| High force watchers a) are still dead meat one on one. And anybody who's busy summoning up a pack of watchers on the fly is bullet bait. |
Actually I don't know anybody who summons high-force watchers. Typically to kill a ghoul the Mage summons a watcher at force 1 to get a "Friends in melee" bonus and then engages the target himself using sorcery(astral Combat). If he's got a weapon foci too then the ghoul is up drek creek for sure (Not that he was in any position to stay alive before).
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| High force allies a) have sucked up a load of karma, and a magic point to boot. I'd be keeping it the hell out a melee. |
No duh. That's why your low-force ally, who happens to have sorcery, hovers out of melee reach and rains mana spells down on the poor helpless ghoul, who has no choice but to sit there and suck it up until he dies.
In general I have not found Force 6 spirits to be particularly rare. It certainly doesn't take an initiate, you're thinking more of force 8-10 or something there.
In general I have not found Force 6 spirits to be particularly rare. It certainly doesn't take an initiate, you're thinking more of force 8-10 or something there.
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| Another thing, the only spirits that have reach are great form spirits, which are only available to initiates. The reach, if I remember correctly, is one of those advantages that only applies to the materialized form, just like the other entries on the same table in MITS. And not everybody and their Auntie are initiates. |
Dude, read your books before you argue. We all screw up (Me more than most people) but dang. Do you even own a BBB? Page 266, under Earth Elemental, Attack: (F+4)S +1 Reach.
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| Apparently your game occurs at a much higher magical power level than the ones I'm used to. As such, the benefits and disadvantages of being dual-natured may have a different weighting for your games. |
Presumably your games occur using some sort of house-rules for magic since Earth Elementals have no reach bonus and astral spirits can use their powers on Physical targets, but somehow cannot use them on a Dual-Natured ghoul and instead have to engage in melee combat.
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I've never said that being dual natured is entirely beneficial. I just think the whining about it is overstated, because there are advantages as well. I still think the biggest disadvantage to being a ghoul is the fact that you are a frightening diseased cannibal. And you smell bad.  |
No advantages unless the ghoul is also awakened. Lots and lots of disadvantages that have a high probability of death on your first run.
I would think spurs would work to as essence was paid.
Arcology: 780 by 650 meters and is 969 meter high
92,000 Residents
920 + [460*6] = 3,680 Warders
491283000/3 = 163,761,000 Cubic meters for the Arcology
Arcology: 780 by 650 meters and is 969 meter high
92,000 Residents
920 + [460*6] = 3,680 Warders
491283000/3 = 163,761,000 Cubic meters for the Arcology
Note that the Arcology is a pyramid, not a solid square. It's volume is significantly lower.
But 3,680 warders at Force/Magic 6 can nail a single Force 6 1,104,000 cubic meter ward in six hours.
But 3,680 warders at Force/Magic 6 can nail a single Force 6 1,104,000 cubic meter ward in six hours.
Hince the divided by 3 on the 491283000
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| It does have to be physical to use physical powers. It also has to be physical to any power to affect any non-astral form except for it's conjuror. |
It would appear to be that way. Thanks.
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Money isn't much of an issue if the mage can use enchanting. Even if it is, a higher-force elemental is a security expense most companies seem willing to spend on in the books. Do you also have your Security teams armed with Holdout Pistols because SMGs cost more? |
Never had an enchanter in our games. True enough, by the rules, you can get a character far wealthier by being a legit enchanter than you ever could by actually shadowrunning. That may be why we never did it.
Visible security in places where lots of people live, visit, or work tend to be armed with pistols, tasers, and stun batons. Response teams are loaded for bear. Security does cost money, and most security guards are _not_ elite soldiers. Giving your average security guard a SMG is over-equipping for standard duty, and arming criminals in trouble situations (cause the first thing they'll do is cap the guard to take his gun). Corporations cut corners all the time. They prefer a visual deterents and passive measures. Now then, high-security areas have more of a presence, with better equipped guards - but unless its a zero zone, your average security guard knows that his job is not to go head to head against runners like some action trid hero, but to ID, track, report, and coordinate with response teams.
Its probably a campaign style thing. Combat with an average security guard is the least of our worries. If he notices us, it's not _him_ who's going to kill us. And he knows it - he's got a low-paying job with a pension plan.
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Typically to kill a ghoul the Mage summons a watcher at force 1 to get a "Friends in melee" bonus and then engages the target himself using sorcery(astral Combat). If he's got a weapon foci too then the ghoul is up drek creek for sure (Not that he was in any position to stay alive before). |
And why isn't the ghoul shooting the mage while he's summoning up a watcher? The mage has to be physical to conjure, after all. (Unless I'm missing a special rule regarding watchers in MiTS) If he can see the ghoul, its likely that the ghoul can see him. And it helps the whole runner team to know who the enemy mage is right off.
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No duh. That's why your low-force ally, who happens to have sorcery, hovers out of melee reach and rains mana spells down on the poor helpless ghoul, who has no choice but to sit there and suck it up until he dies. |
Yup. That's what I'd do too. Eventually the ghoul will start missing resistance rolls. Of course, not everyone has an ally. Something about all that karma and the magic point. I think our group must be unusual.
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Dude, read your books before you argue. We all screw up (Me more than most people) but dang. Do you even own a BBB? Page 266, under Earth Elemental, Attack: (F+4)S +1 Reach. |
Heh. Forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder. But isn't that for the materialized elemental? The ghoul's no different than anybody else there. (except he still doesn't need to fight with a battle of wills). So a slight advantage for the ghoul, as opposed to a mundane, in this situation.
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| No advantages unless the ghoul is also awakened. Lots and lots of disadvantages that have a high probability of death on your first run. |
Odd. I never stated that ghouls were godlike - just not quite as bad as some folks make out. I find that permanent astral perception and the ability to affect the astral plane with your bare hands to be an unusual and under-utilized situational advantage. The fact that you are at a disadvantage against a fully awakened opponent who is gunning for you is a given.
But to say there are absolutely no advantages and that the disadvantages would mean death at the first opportunity is more than a bit overboard. Maybe if you played him as a dumb gunbunny, sure. That's true for _any_ dumb gunbunny.
| QUOTE (Lantzer) |
| And why isn't the ghoul shooting the mage while he's summoning up a watcher? The mage has to be physical to conjure, after all. (Unless I'm missing a special rule regarding watchers in MiTS) If he can see the ghoul, its likely that the ghoul can see him. And it helps the whole runner team to know who the enemy mage is right off. |
Because the mage most likely summoned the watcher press gang a couple hours ago?
Watchers are a preperation thing, not something one does in the middle of combat. The watchers keep the dual natured being pinned down while the big spirits or projecting mages do the real damage.
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| Odd. I never stated that ghouls were godlike - just not quite as bad as some folks make out. I find that permanent astral perception and the ability to affect the astral plane with your bare hands to be an unusual and under-utilized situational advantage. The fact that you are at a disadvantage against a fully awakened opponent who is gunning for you is a given. |
How can a mundane ghoul affect anything on the astral plane? They are still mundane, and do not have the ability to do anything on the astral plane. They are bystanders.
Seeing the astral is nice. But they have no ability to deal with anything on the astral, and they can't turn off that avenue of attack; this means they are defenseless against a smart enemy if they don't have a mage friend to guard.
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| But to say there are absolutely no advantages and that the disadvantages would mean death at the first opportunity is more than a bit overboard. Maybe if you played him as a dumb gunbunny, sure. That's true for _any_ dumb gunbunny. |
But to say there are advantages that even come close to the disadvantages of being a dual natured mundane is just as overboard.
| QUOTE (tjn) |
| How can a mundane ghoul affect anything on the astral plane? They are still mundane, and do not have the ability to do anything on the astral plane. They are bystanders. Seeing the astral is nice. But they have no ability to deal with anything on the astral, and they can't turn off that avenue of attack; this means they are defenseless against a smart enemy if they don't have a mage friend to guard. |
I think you may have meant it differently, Tin, but just so there's no confusion:
Dual-natured beings exist on the Astral as well as the Physical, at all times. Bad news: No orbital flights, you use your piddly mundane initiative, and you can't move 1000km X Magic Rating a second.
The good news: You see into the Astral, which means you can see any astral constructs, like Shamanic Lodges and (most) wards. You can't make Wards (well, technically you can make Force 0 wards), but you can detect them, and sometimes break through them. You can attack Spirits in hand-to-hand without nasty Normal Weapons modifiers, and you get to use your modified Strength, and resist with Body, instead of Charisma (wince for the ghoul) and Willpower. Furthermore, you can usually see such spirits, while otherwise it was merely one way (if you were mundane) and the spirit would ALWAYS see you first. Also, and I think this is pretty cool, if you find your way to Australia and happen upon a purely Astral construct building or structure, you can climb it in the Astral, and your body simply appears to be climbing in midair in the Physical. Talk about skywalk h4x0rs.
So yeah. Basically, you CAN affect things in the Astral, just not much differently than you'd affect them in the Physical. No magicky bonuses or anything. Still, it CAN be KINDA useful.
It's a j, as in Jay and Silent Bob. 
and the t's uncapitalised, so it's like: tjn
I can see pure astral constructs as an exception, but I don't see them coming into play very often. I'll revise the statement to include "except when in Australia"
And in rereading the section on Astral Barriers in combat... if the ward wins just one roll, the ghoul's astral form would be disrupted as they have no magic attribute in which to loose? Guess that's one way to get past the ward.
and the t's uncapitalised, so it's like: tjnI can see pure astral constructs as an exception, but I don't see them coming into play very often. I'll revise the statement to include "except when in Australia"
And in rereading the section on Astral Barriers in combat... if the ward wins just one roll, the ghoul's astral form would be disrupted as they have no magic attribute in which to loose? Guess that's one way to get past the ward.
| QUOTE (I Eat Time) |
| you can't move 1000km X Magic Rating a second. |
Nobody can, though. The maximum movement speed is 1,000 meters per CT per Magic Rating, or 1,200km/h/Magic Rating.
My bad, haven't dealt with spirits in a long time. I was just aware they could move really friggin' fast.
Anyone with one arm has trouble measuring fathoms.
Anyone with one foot has trouble counting paces.
Anyone with one ear has trouble finding the source of a sound.
Anyone with one eye has trouble judging distance.
Anyone who eats Time has trouble judging speed.
Anyone with one foot has trouble counting paces.
Anyone with one ear has trouble finding the source of a sound.
Anyone with one eye has trouble judging distance.
Anyone who eats Time has trouble judging speed.
| QUOTE (I Eat Time) | ||
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Well If I played a dualnatured being (Ghoul)
I would hire the service of a freespirit and have it use Astral gate on:
A large box of ammunition
An nice assortment of explosives
An nice assortment of guns
An nice assortment of meleweapons
Several different kinds of armor
Basically an "extra" outfit for you runner
As soon as they are transported to the astral plane, you as dualbeing can use it as freely as if they were on the physical plane.
Bingo you got astral armor
Bingo you kill spirits with your pistols/explosives, and don't care about "immunity to normal weapons" since this doesn't apply for "normal" weapons that have been gated to the astral plane.
Rather you rule the astral plane .... even dragons wont be happy about a panther assultgun on the astral plane
And I guess any projecting unfriendly mage will get a "last" surprise in his/her life.
Actually I don't know how the rules are about, putting on equiptment on "both" planes. I guess if you place your gun(s) in the exact same position in both planes you would be able to draw and shoot both at the same time
Only the extremely powerful can astrally transpose matter. The normal astral gateway just lets you astrally project even if mundane.
Darn !
I didn't notise that they changed that rule from 2ed
well then ghouls sucks
Oh well not the first time they made some changes to the rules that conflicts with the storyline (but hopefully the last!)
Now it's simply not posible anylonger, no matter who you are, screw already written main storyline.
(Guess I have to get in line for the "kicke the authors in the balls", more than one time now, for the currious my first kick would be the removal of "attacking through a focus")
Well as an alternative create a ghoul that turned into a ghoul before 2058, and had a freespirit friend at the time, and got a HUGE storrage gated into the astral while it was posible
Simply just a matter of a decent background story that goes back a couple of years
I didn't notise that they changed that rule from 2ed
well then ghouls sucks
Oh well not the first time they made some changes to the rules that conflicts with the storyline (but hopefully the last!)
Now it's simply not posible anylonger, no matter who you are, screw already written main storyline.
(Guess I have to get in line for the "kicke the authors in the balls", more than one time now, for the currious my first kick would be the removal of "attacking through a focus")
Well as an alternative create a ghoul that turned into a ghoul before 2058, and had a freespirit friend at the time, and got a HUGE storrage gated into the astral while it was posible
Simply just a matter of a decent background story that goes back a couple of years
Transposed matter is fully official. The alchera and astral constructs fit the premise perfectly, just there are no rules for PCs, NPCs and spirits to do so.
I'll also point out that the listed spirit powers are those that have been documented in multiple instances, there are special cases where a spirit shows a power that has not been observed in any other spirit or creature. Having one of those as a level 2 contact at character generation should be rather impossible. And convincing a level 1 contact to do such a thing should be very expensive for you.
I'll also point out that the listed spirit powers are those that have been documented in multiple instances, there are special cases where a spirit shows a power that has not been observed in any other spirit or creature. Having one of those as a level 2 contact at character generation should be rather impossible. And convincing a level 1 contact to do such a thing should be very expensive for you.
Interesting question as far as Alchera goes. Say my character puts on Form Fitting and Greatcoat in the Astral, so my armor's like 6/3 or something to that effect. Then, on the physical, because I'm still naked, I put on the same thing. This goes straight to my skin, it doesn't hover over my body at the thickness of the Astral Armor. But do I take Quickness modifiers for having 16 points of Ballistic armor, since the armor's not really 'stacked'?
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