My current character in the campaign I'm in is a Ghoul. I chose it because I'm a "concept" person, and I like the idea of a gritty, street-level-as-you-get, semi-moral, hard-as-nails Shadowrunner trying to fit in. I'm a sucker for character conflict, too.

So far I've been reasonably happy with my choice, happier than if, heaven forbid, I picked a Shaman. But I'd like to voice an opinion to The Masses and see if I'm the only one who thinks this way.

For all the flaws that Ghouls get as starting characters (not considering the random diceroll you make to determine 'how bad it gets the Ghoul'), do the benefits make up for it and in fact justify an additional ten build-points to get the option? I mean, crap, Dual Natured is a 10-point SURGE flaw. And they're blind, which puts Smartlink into question. To make up for it, we get +3 to some stats, some definite negatives to the stats (numbers elude me at this point), and a running multiplier.

Does anyone else think this a bit unfair, or have some bit of crafty imagination to make it all worthwhile?

Well: Some people consider the dual natured 'flaw' to be far less of a flaw than a 5-10 point one. Indeed many would consider it an edge as seeing through the astral means seeing perfectly well in complete darkness. It provides you some limited magical ability (IIRC you can set-up wards) and you can keep an eye on the astral.

I personally probably wouldn't go a dual-natured character unless they were awakened though (thus could pick-up masking metamagic).

Add to that the sensitive system flaw and a loss of essence, a minor problem with the sun, the need to eat metaflesh, and the serious problem with freaking the mundanes, I'd say yeah, Ghouls got boned. Personally, I wouldn't charge a player for the option.

Oddly enough my current character as well is a ghoul, though it happened through gameplay and not as a choice in chargen.

Totally threw me for a loop, but it did evolve into something that strengthened his themes and developed him in a way that I wouldn't expect.

But damn, sometimes it just doesn't pay to get up.

And if I'm missing something that makes up for it, by all means, someone speak up.

A dual natured being still needs a magic rating >0 in order to be able to create wards.

A dual natured being with magic 0 can create wards of a maximum force 0 ... = No wards

Hmm. Technically any character with astral perception can make a ward, and dual natured creatures percieve and interact with the astral plane in the same way as creatures with astral perception. The only problem is that you have a magic rating of 0 thus you can only roll 0 dice to create a ward with a maximum area of 0... Doh. Perhaps ask your GM if you can learn a skill that lets you set-up wards?

Dual nature as an edge is... hard for me to grasp.

The only way I could kinda see it as a mitgating advantage, is if the character is a magic priority B character, which then allows the character to project.

But for non-awakened ghouls? It really does suck in just about everyway (gogo immunity to flashpacks! Heh).

Ghouls are fodder for projecting mages and spirits and there's not a damn thing a non-awakened Ghoul can do about it aside from trying to grab cover and yelling at the team's mage to take care of it.

As far as seeing in darkness, remember normal astral perception modifiers apply. Considering just about every place in the sprawl has at least a rating 1 background count, and more often two; relying on it isn't as easy as it appears to be on the surface. Heaven forbid doing a run on an Aztech complex

As far as warding... sorry Eats, as ghouling doesn't confer any magic rating that wasn't there already, no warding is possible for a non-awakened ghoul.

Lilt's idea of a skill might work, if one could slip it past a GM.

Though looking at the rules for warding... while I think it's implied that Adepts can't make them... the only requirement to make one is a magic rating.

Some things I've learned about Ghouling:

Flashpacks are worthless against me, so I carry lots of them. I'd have to look up and see if Superflashes simply do flare damage and not concussive. The VITAS immunity is pretty nice for living in the Barrens, but it's nothing I'd even take as an edge, ever, given the choice.

Dual-Natured is bad, it's very bad, but it isn't awful, and I'm not (usually) mincemeat against Spirits. Just remember, I get to use my physical (unAugmented) stats for Astral combat, so that's nice, and just in case I got a Willpower of 6. Wards and Astral Barriers suck though (especially ones placed in between floors, and elevators going up). However, I do get to Assense, and being the only character who can astrally perceive at all in the usual party, being able to tell who's Magically Awakened and not is pretty nice. And, to an extent, I can tell if someone's lying, and how much Cyberware they have.

Shooting at live targets has never been a problem, as long as I have LOS. Inanimate objects, however, are hard to shoot at, and I can't reliably videoconference or watch trideo or anything like that. Or, and this is the stickler, read in any shape or form.

Well.... You could read through braille, or you could read a surface that had the letters raised/lowered (I find many street name signs do here in the UK).

Or if yer GM advocates that one can read the info if plugged into a datajack.

Canon says one needs an image link. Course those I game with have some minor problems hitting the broadside of Canon with a Great Dragon ATGM. Heh.

True. As you can still astrally percieve, you probably honly have the -2 pt version of the flaw. It's GM's disgression, but seeing as your brain can interpret visual information it probably can use simsense, so things like rigging, decking, and simsense movies are still in.

I like someone who sets up a concept character. Far too many people are more concerned with number crunching. (I like shamans by the way) so as lnog as your GM is on the same line, it should be good.
The issue becomes how do your team mates feel about it. Personally I would not be too happy to run with someone who might consider me a snack pak but hey, what's a girl to do?
Does the GM throw prejudices against you from NPC's? as long as the game doesn't devolve into prejudices it should be pretty good role playing.

A Few points:

Wards: Any awakened character capable of astral perception can make wards. BBB 174. Therefore if your ghould is awakened, or your adept spends the power points for astral perception they can make wards. Size and force are limited by your magic attribute, so working in groups generally helps.

I'd say the Ghoul option is worth it if you want to do the concept character, however the only ghoul I've played was a Phys-ad who had a fairly good transformation. There will always be complications with social events, but if you get a good solid team behind you, it generally works out in the end. Another thing you might want to contemplate as a ghoul--sorry if I offend anyone--but make jerky. Go out to the barrens pick off a drug dealer or homeless person depending on your moral sway, and bring it home to make jerky. This is a broad interpretation of the dietary requirement but my GM let me do it to avoid having to hunt on a regular basis.

Remember though, as a ghoul Biotech can be a little interesting if both parties are wounded

Do ghouls get boned? Yes, absolutely. WE TRIED TO TALK YOU OUT OF IT. But nooooooo...

I've played a narcissistic ghoul surgeon who firmly believed that ghoulism was the next stage in human evolution. He was great fun and despite the huge amount of hindrances (especially since he was mundane), I still managed to hold my own. Mostly 'cause I relied on his intelligence and his Social Skills.

But statistically, yes, ghouls suck. They suck hard. Statistically, let's see if we can find a closer approximation for the ghoul "package:"

Attribute Mods: Nil: +0. No change.
Random Attribute Mods: +2 to -8 (being generous)
Magic & Essence -1: -5 Points (again, being generous)
Running Multiplier: +4 Points (max)
Mild Allergy: Sunlight: -3 Points
Enhanced Hearing & Smell: +4 Points
Blind Flaw: -2 Points
Sensitive System: -3 Points
Dietary Requirements: -2 Points (being generous yet again)
Dual-Natured; -10 Points
Natural Immunity: VITAS: +1 Point

Look Ma, for 10 Build Points you gain a grand total of at least -14 to -24 Build Points (improve by 6 if Awakened)! Yessir. That's soooo worth the cost.

If I ran a game, I would let players pick ghoul for free. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages, in my opinion.

By the way, the idiot who put Blind Flaw in the box obviously didn't bother to look at the text, which says all ghouls suffer from a degree of blindness and can correct their inability to see colors or fine details in living objects by getting cybereyes. Ghouls get boned enough - they do not have the Blind Flaw.

No, because the Flaw can NOT be corrected by cybereyes. Obviously, they messed up when doing the ghoul entry.

Indeed. All right, how about this: ghoul player characters are a package deal, and as such all flaws and edges work as usual except where specifically stated otherwise in the text.

I don't believe the developers meant for ghouls and shapeshifters to be broken down into a variety of edges and flaws in any case, but obviously if you do they need a little tweaking to make them work properly.

In the old forums we calculated the "Edge" of being a ghoul to a -20 Flaw, and that's the ONLY way I'd ever play a Ghoul, if I got +20BP to offset all those horrible disadvantages.

Sometimes you don't pay points to reflect power, you pay points to represent rarity. There's no other reason it costs more to play a metavariant than a regular meta. Think of it as having to pay a street index for the character type

Well then, if you're going to put a game mechanic on novelty for being a race, why would you make the mechanic unfair and unbalanced? At least with Street Index, you're normally getting something cool, or useful.

Very well. Change the cost to -15 instead of -20 then. Same difference between a metavariant and standard race.

I find the general agreement that 'being dual-natured sucks!' kind of odd. There are certainly situational disadvantages to being dual-natured, but there are also advantages.

1) Why do some corps like using dual-natured critters as security? Because they are actually aware of what's going on in the astral. This is an advantage.

2) Sure, spirits can attack you while still astral. Fair enough. But you have an advantage over the mundane cyber-goon next to you. He can only do something about a spirit if it decides to materialize next to him and he tries to engage it in a battle of wills. A dual-natured creature who is good at unarmed combat can kick its ass on its home turf. After all, do dual-natured critters have to use their mental stats when they bite your astrally projecting mage? If I remember correctly, no.

3) Wards. Of course, this also gives you the advantage that you know the ward is _there_.

I think the biggest disadvantage for being a ghoul, is that most people consider you a creepy semi-undead plague-carrying cannibal monster, and would prefer that you'd crawl away and die somewhere. Some are even willing to help you accomplish that. And there's the physical blindness, but it's not as bad as the blindness flaw.

Being dual-natured has its perks, but its flaws greatly outweigh their positives if you're also mundane. The big one is Possession. A magician with Possession doesn't need to do much to take control of your body; just wait until you're asleep, smack your virtual self upside the head, and bam, he's got himself a new skinride which he can slaughter at any time. You can't even create a ward to offer at least a modicrum of protection while you're snoozing, either.

Also, mages have no problems spotting a ward. The +2 penalty only applies to things existing solely on the physical world (of which even ghouls have a problem unless they have cybereyes; it's mentioned in the Blind Flaw). Ward's exist there, thus they suffer no penalty.

Of course, unlike a mage, you have no chance to learn Masking to even try and slip past wards. And also unlike a mage, you don't have the option to simply stop being dual-natured for a short while so you can waltz past it without a problem to begin with.

Considering how commonplace wards are (should be) due to their being one of the most inexpensive security measures, well, it sucks to be dual-natured.

So, if most of you think playing a Ghoul is BP robbery, I have an idea: don't play one.

Well, any mundane who's got hostile initiated mages hanging out at his doss when he's sleeping is in a world of hurt - ghoul or not.

One of the biggest reasons mages in our games don't astrally perceive most of the time is that little +2 modifier on handling physical stuff (which is _most_ things they have to worry about). It's especially a pain when they already have their hands full with spell defense and sustaining spells on the party.

I think you must have more mages in your games, as well as more initiates among those who are mages. In our games, an initiate is someone who's made it to the big time, magically speaking.

Hmm, have to look at my BBB when I get home... If so, that makes powers like Concealment kind of worthless. "Sir, security hasn't found any runners, but there's a hearth spirit walking around in Marketing!" I figured it had to be physical to use its more physical powers - like engulf, flamethrower, noxious breath, etc.

Interesting: You are comparing beginning characters who can have a max of 6 in a skill to what in our games would be considered a big-ass spirit probably summoned by a kick-ass initiate.

Spirits are easily at force 6? Not usually. High force elementals
a) cost more money to summon
b) get fewer services for the money
c) and above force 6, cause _physical drain_. Hermetics don't care about normal drain, but physical drain could lay you up for a while.

High force nature spirits
a) get fewer services
b) cause annoying drain even if its only stun.

High force watchers
a) are still dead meat one on one. And anybody who's busy summoning up a pack of watchers on the fly is bullet bait.

High force allies
a) have sucked up a load of karma, and a magic point to boot. I'd be keeping it the hell out a melee.

Another thing, the only spirits that have reach are great form spirits, which are only available to initiates. The reach, if I remember correctly, is one of those advantages that only applies to the materialized form, just like the other entries on the same table in MITS. And not everybody and their Auntie are initiates.

And not everyplace is warded. Sometimes wards can come as a surprise.

Apparently your game occurs at a much higher magical power level than the ones I'm used to. As such, the benefits and disadvantages of being dual-natured may have a different weighting for your games.

I've never said that being dual natured is entirely beneficial. I just think the whining about it is overstated, because there are advantages as well. I still think the biggest disadvantage to being a ghoul is the fact that you are a frightening diseased cannibal. And you smell bad.

Spirits can use Concealment on themselves.

I guess I'm carrying around baggage from the earlier editions.
When initiation was introduced, Initiates were considered the ultimate mages. And initiatory groups weren't exactly common. When you could find one that would let you in, you'd find out that they wanted something in exchange. There's always a price for power.

And my mage never _had_ a force 3 power focus.

EDIT: I guess it comes down to campaign flavor. By the rules, you could very easily make an initated full mage with no magical skills whatsoever, and who knows nothing about magic, except for all those inner mysteries, of course.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against "low-level" campaigns. They're some of my favorite. But in the standard setting and power level, an initiated mage shouldn't be all that rare. Hell, MitS even seems to suggest in a few places (mostly examples) that high grade initiates are fairly common.

I see where you are coming from. Well, lets get back on topic.

Ghouls - Phew! Waves hand in front of nose.

Wait, isn't that 50 meters a side?

50x50x50=50^3

Absolutely not. The number is 50, the unit is cubic meter. It's 50m^3, not 50^3m^3. 50 cubic meters is ~3.684 meters a side.

And what blakkie said. 50 x 50 x 50 = 50^3, but that's got nothing to do with the unit Cubic Meter, or Cubic Anything.

Then how the drek did Deus ward the entire Renraku Arcology?

What were the measurements of that thing again? Maybe he had a hundred thousand magicians at Magic-24.

Easy, Deus has no stats, the module speifically states if you want Deus to have done it or be able to do it, he can.

Writer Fiat.

Hmmm, could you create a ward perimeter out of multiple wards? Using a rough football field size situation I create 6 separate wards each a meter thick. The bottom and top would each be 100m x 40m = 4000 m3, 2 of the sides 100m x 30m = 3000 m3, and the other 2 sides 40m x 30m = 1200 m3. Total of 24400 m3. Still an unholy amount, but more manageable.

I could see Deus pulling off anything related to technology. Not magic.

... That was the sound of my logic snapping.

Frag, why don't we ward the entire planet to keep out the horrors, I'll writer fiat it, since I have no stats. What? It makes no sense? Bah... who cares about these trivialities.

Sorry bout that, I'm going to pick up the pieces of my exploded brain.

So... ghouls? They stink right?

Yep, they smell like last weeks Barren's runoff