Reminds me of the Militech posters from CyberPunk 2020 which usually featured a good looking model holding a weapon:

"Big Guns for Big People"

Honestly I don't even think a cyberlimb is entirely necessary. For long arms (assuming were going to evolve this into very heavy versions of most classes of firearm) you could probobly get away with some simple strength enhancements. For handguns/machinepistols I'd recommend bone lacing as a minimum and would highly recommend some kind of strength boost.

Oh yeah, because there's loads of gun totting people with sufficiently strength enhanced cyberlimbs to market these too as well.

Look at the market today, there simply isn't huge demand for the .50AE because it's pointless because a 9mm or .45 can do the same job much more cheaply, thus pretty much only the DEagle can fire it. That only changes in SR, because there are big bad trolls and better armour to worry about. Just because Trolls and some modified humans could handle more power, doesn't create either a market or use for it. Just look at those .50BMG pistols - they're one offs for a reason.

What? Flamethrowers and armour piercing munitions aren't exactly common on the street in SR. SMGs may be pretty common, but they're not unheard of on the street today.

My argument is that there may be a niche market for such heavily specialised weapons, just as there is the DEagle today - but such is the specialisation that it should be represented in availability. As I say, the desired effect can be acheived within the rules - if you want to allow that cut down AK to be fired on the Pistols skill, that's fine. At the end of the day, any one make and model in the book does represent 20 or 30 models and copies by a whole variety of manufacturers.

So, it's a case of Trolls and sufficiently cybered people can use it without penalty as though it's a pistol - to anyone else, it is an assault rifle.

My point is that the weapons are built for Joe Average 3s accross the board stats man, and what catagory each weapon applies to, is how it would apply him. If you make a 'Very Heavy Pistol', everyone will want one, and want to be able to handle it as a pistol, when in fact Joe Average would need to hold it in two hands, just as they would with an Assault Rifle with a collapsable stock in it's folded down position. So, in terms of Joe Average - upon whom the catagories are based - you have just created yet another Assault Rifle - but, just as with regular Assault Rifles, trolls and particularly big and strong people can handle them like pistols.

Which takes me back to the demand issue, only very specialised gunsmiths are going to produce such a thing, because the market for something like that would be tiny. You assess the actual cost of augmenting a normal human to be able to withstand such a weapon you're suggesting, and convince me that anyone, even a major corp, is going to go to such an expense, on such a regular basis that they need this weapon? A pistol is a backup, not a first choice, anything around the size you're suggesting is already bigger than a lot of SMGs, which are primary weapons.

Sure, there's trolls and cybered threats around, but that's why Heavy Pistols are popular and no one uses a Hold Out. It's why corp security has rapid response teams with ARs and SMGs. It's why Lone Star pack Thunderbolts.

Thanks for proving my point. Why produce a VHP when a regular HP with BF is sufficiently adequate to do the same job and anyone can use it?

The title of the thread is "is the VHP necessary?" You have demonstrated perfectly why it is not imho necessary.

IIRC, doesn't that require more tape manuevering. Something like, competency course, back ground check, and an endorsement from the local sheriff or some such?

Yeah, plus there may be state restrictions.

If you already had a gov't background check for your job, does that count?

Okay I dont understand the argument that no one would produce a gun for a specialized portion of the population. The game already has metahuman modifications as a feature. We have very specialized guns right now. What is the problem?

I dont think that the question should be is the VHP necessary. I think that it should be why isnt it already in the game. It doesnt make sense as a game balence issue. Shadowrun has always had poor game balence. None of this stuff is all that balenced in the first place.

You shoot someone with a high skill and a heavy gun then they die. It's a deadly game. Magic users are deadly too.

Heavy weapons and strength are the schtick of Trolls. Let them have that and move on.

Don't there have to be troll sized variant weapons due to trolls inability to use normal sized weapons?

A while back I sketched out the actual size differences in different metahumans according to SR4 BBB. Different Metatype Sizes. Look at the difference between a troll and a human. Unless trolls have comically small hands for their build, I wouldn't think they'd be able to use most standard firearms comfortably (confirmation from the gun nuts, please).

So if any trolls are to have firearms (esp. pistols) in your game, then we're already saying that there has to be a custom market. And if that's the case, then I can certainly see the possibility of this market providing more power too, whether for marketing purposes or an actual need in a world where body armour is frequently worn and you have people who can shrug off lighter rounds. The argument that it is catering to a "fringe of a fringe" and therefore not economically viable is a pretty weak one because with a world population of, let's say, six billion, that's sixty million trolls out there to sell to.

And if you want to say that trolls are also marginalised and poor, then I'd say that means an increased desire on their part for firearms that outweighs any difficulty in paying. If you're saying that all the kids in the USA that have firearms have well-paying middle-class jobs, then I think you're mistaken.

And finally, in countries with a lot of civil unrest (of which there are plenty in 2070), I'd say that trolls are going to be used in militias and armies quite extensively. There is an incentive to arm these trolls so somebody somewhere will make them. these weapons. And if so, then a Shadowrunner should be able to get hold of them, too.

The only question is whether or not these troll weapons would be made with extra power. I know very little about guns, but I think the case that there was a use for this in the cybered, trolled-up body-armour loving world of 2070 was put quite convincingly earlier in the thread by people more knowledgeable on the subject than me.

I'm not saying they wouldn't be made, and I'm certainly not saying they couldn't be made. What I am saying is this, in a world of around 4bn (thanks to VITAS and no small amount of genocide, civil wars and other upheaval), you have 40,000,000 trolls, most of whom live in countries with pretty tough gun control laws, so getting such a thing legally would involve some serious hoop jumping - not easy for sinless trolls - your market would be actually pretty microscopic - you're talking about arming up a few hundred official troops/security and paramilitary police (your main market) and a small number of insurgents (you illicit market) - most of whom would be the heavy weapons guy in the squad, so would be kitted out with PACs, HMGs, or Vindicators instead of poxy pistols. So what? You're producing a sidearm for the one guy in the squad who needs it least. Seriously, the only legit guy in that list who might carry one is the police troll, so your legal market consists of a few gun nuts in North America, a couple of hundred policemen worldwide, and some terrorists. That's not going to net you a major profit.

Now, there are reasons for standard issue as well, in NATO, the British, Americans, Germans and Italians all use different rifles, but they all fire 5.56mm NATO ammunition and all accept the exact same magazines - why? So in a combat situation, Johnny British can shout 'need ammo' to his US counterpart, who can throw him a clip and Johnny can use it. Same applies within a squad. Heavy weapons chap uses a M249, it uses 5.56mm - same as an M16, SA80, and G3 - why? So the ammunition can be spread round the squad and everyone can use it. Standard issue sidearms in NATO are 9mm, why? So ammo can be passed round to where it's needed. There's also the economic factor, it's far cheaper to ship in 50million rounds of 5.56mm NATO than to ship in dribs and drabs of different types - that's never going to change. So not only is it not viable to sell them like that, it's not practical to buy or use them like that.

G3 and MG3 both use 7,62mm. Just saying .
(granted, the G36 uses 5,56mm, but it's fairly new, 1995 or so. The new MG4 isn't in active service yet, as far as I know)

Edit: oh, on topic: how many people would actually buy a mag lock sequenzer and stuff like that? Certainly less than 40 million .

I voted "Yes, with Recoil Comp or Strength Requirement", but would like instead to say "Yes, with double or more recoil depending on design." The thing is, VHPs Already Exist

Anybody with decent Pistols B/R skill and a Shop can build a pistol that will fire any ammo available. For that matter, the same individual could create any sized ammunition, so the size of weapons really has no limit. It's just a GM call on whether any created weapon can be used in their game, and if so, to reach an agreement with the player on how the rules would work.

Personally I would use the CC firearm creation rules, but either allow multiple uses of the "Barrel Reduction" option, or create a new option called "Pistol Variant" that reduces range to HP. Raygun has Rules Posted for any caliber round in varying sized firearms.

I agree with Knasser,

There will be a market for these oversized weapons, VHPs etc...
There are trolls that are very rich, in cannon, that own corporation, so I do not see why they would not start a production line of of Troll sized VHPs. Even if Ares didn't start one, just to try and get more of a market share, others would. If you can make a profit, someone will make the weapons.

Most of the world does not have strict gun control laws. The UK managed to keep them, but not very many other places.

One of the questions that I have is, would a 50 calibler pistol round be able to go thru an engine block?

I would allow VHPs under very specific circumstances.

First, there are not that many trolls, so mass producing a pistol specifically for them is not cost effective.

Second, there's not really a "need" for a huge pistol. The large caliber pistols, SMGs, and new, compact ARs give plenty of firepower.

However, I would allow a custom made, or pre-production weapon. It would be temperamental, pricey, or both. Honestly, there's no reason that you couldn't make a troll sized zip-gun or something like that. I've seen .50 cal. "pistols" and while they are few and far between, modifying one for a troll's grip wouldn't be difficult if you can find one.

And yes, I would impose a minimum STR to use it (like a bow) unless it was heavily comp'd for recoil (and maybe even then, depending on how it was comp'd), and you can forget about concealability.

I'm sorry, your logic simply does not make sense. Look at the Smith and Wesson 500. It's pretty much meant for big game hunting, very big game hunting, the barrel alone is huge. I've actually handled one, it's heavy as fuck. I'd classify it as a VHP being marketed to a very limited market... even MORE limited than your troll market you keep harping on, to which we have on many occassions pointed out are NOT the only market. There are people cybered to the gills, trolls, orks, enthusiasts, mercs, and spec ops teams. You can't port around an HMG or PAC very easily, versus the VHP which you can holster and not worry about every dick and jane on the street know what you are packing.

I think an important point that may have been overlooked here is that for most military type folks, a pistol is a sidearm. Currently, I don't know of any sidearm issued to a military that will go through body armor of the sort issued to every soldier in the US military. They will all be stopped. I voted on the "no" side of this issue, and I guess my problem with the whole thing is that people are wanting a pistol to be something that it's not, in my mind. Military tech is always a race between offensive and defensive. Plate armor was the be-all end-all of defensive tech, till someone invented the musket(and to some extent the long-bow.) I personally am okay with the thought that a pistol round will be stopped by most body armor. Creating a bigger pistol, to me, is not the way to solve the problem that body armor is sufficiently advanced to be highly effective. Besides, you make a better gun, if it's possible, someones just gonna make better armor. Not to mention the fact that when you make a handgun that will drop trolls fairly easily, it's probably gonna be about the size at least of a machine pistol and maybe even a SMG.

Yes there are big guns out there today. But the equipement list in the book is bare bones. If you actually want a whole new category of pistols, why not a new category of everything else? To me this seems like trying to make it so that pistols fill the niche that the rest of the weapons list is meant to occupy. I mean, what precisely is the difference between a VHP and a short barrel shotgun with a pistol grip firing slug rounds? The VHP has a slide or a cylinder instead of an internal mag and a pump?

Not to mention you make a huge honkin pistol designed to drop trolls, it's gonna leave watermelon sized holes in normal folks. I dunno. My philosophy on adding things to my games has always been reductionist. If there's a hole in the game, or problems with the rules, I try to make a patch that sticks with the spirit of the rules and works according to how I think reality should. But for things that are merely "cool" I am much more wary of adding them to the game. I feel like if you add bigger and bigger guns to shadowrun, eventually you have runners driving Main Battle Tanks down the road on their way to the run, and toting around flamethrowers and manportable masers. I don't like the escalation.

My two cents, and I felt like it was a little different than the whole supply issue everyone else has been arguing.

Sorry, usually when I say pistol, I mean, like, something you can fit into a holster. If you're carrying a rifle, you're not also going to be carrying one of these. I'm still not entirely clear on the difference between a SMG and a machine pistol....

Looking at the wiki for it, though, it states that the rounds it uses are actually AP rounds, being made out of a "hardened steel penetrator instead of softer brass or lead." It goes on to state that the round is almost unique to the weapon. It's not that the round is small that makes it AP, it's because it is small and uses a lot of powder, and is made out of hardened steel, it will bust through body armor. A .22 LR (Long Rifle, standard round fired by .22 rifles) round is small, but won't go through body armor. The 5.56 round fired by the M-16, although about the same size as the .22 LR round in diameter, will go through body armor(unless it hits a trauma plate), because there is more powder behind it, and this results in a higher velocity.

*lip quivers* My Sig isn't a medium pistol.... it's not it's not it's not!

(Eliza doesn't hold it against you Hull. Eliza being my P226, chambered in the .40S&W)

Really though, I would call a 9mm medium, but you'd include the .40 and .357?

The MP7 fits into a holster, which is behind the whole idea of the PDW (personal defense weapon) as sidearm. Of course, unless you're special forces, the normal rifleman wouldn't carry one, but those doesn't carry pistols either.

You have a small portion of the population that is primarily thought of as thugs. They are stronger then a human and tougher. They are being used as bodyguards, bouncers, and thugs by several groups. They would be commonly be used as heavy weapons infantry in several armies. Probably a much higher percentage of them would be using weapons then of humans.

The setting is a bit dark. Street life is dangerous. Larger number of street people are armed then current era.

Everything points to not a small number of customers but a large number of large customers.

On top of that a Troll can't really use a human sized gun. That means that for the few manufacturers that have Troll Scale weapons they would have a dedicated client base.

The metahuman variant isn't free either so you can't say that no one would buy it because they already buy it.

Something that size would have problems with very small objects. I know people with large hands that can't grab small things as it is. Add bumpy skin from Troll skin and I think that it would be like trying to load a revolver with space suit gloves.

Make a large solid heavy gun that loads rifle rounds. They can handle the weight and the kick. There is your VHP.

You're not going to convince me. Like I say, where they may come in "useful" they're superceded by more readily available weapons such as sawn off shotguns, the Thunderbolt, Guardian, Warhawk and Hatamoto. No major buyers are going to get them in, so you're left with the private market, which will simply make them more costly and harder to find. IMG they'd be a custom build. Custom or rare weapons such as those aren't going to be helpful once someone is after you, they connect you to all your previous felonies. You don't want that.

Seriously, the fact that troll and dwarf customisation costs so much more is reflection enough of the market as it is. If they were that common they would produce them at no extra cost.