QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jun 7 2013, 03:47 PM) 
Wait a minute. Are you admitting that how a customer feels matters?
As opposed to..?
Full Version: 20 minute character challenge
As opposed to..?
The reason I brought up D&D 4e as an example was because, longhand, it would take forever to go through all the books and pick out the feats/powers/equipment for your character. With a good program, it only takes minutes. If I said that D&D was a better system because it had a better program, I'd be extremely wrong.
That's why the 20 minute challenge is longhand, without aids or cheats. It's a test of the generation system, not the program.
That's why the 20 minute challenge is longhand, without aids or cheats. It's a test of the generation system, not the program.
I do not think speed is a useful metric to test, however.
QUOTE (Sunshine @ Jun 7 2013, 01:29 PM)
Despite thinking of myself as beeing quite knowledgeable about the 4th Edition, I think I could not do a character in 20 Minutes. Maybe a mundane face with not a lot of equippment, but anything else I'd waste a lot of time flipping through pages...
btw Thanks for explaining "longhand" I'll try to use it so it sticks...
...hmm, "Longhand" maybe an Elven Face High stakes Negotiator...
btw Thanks for explaining "longhand" I'll try to use it so it sticks...
...hmm, "Longhand" maybe an Elven Face High stakes Negotiator...
You might surprise yourself. I maight actually save time longhand for a lot of characters. I lost a lot of time scrolling around and just not seeing the line Iwas looking for, where as making it longhand I'd just write. Restricted gear muscle toner 5 points. I know what a lot of gear, edges and flaws, costs from memory, so I'd only be looking up a handful of items and I know where they are in the books. Now if I was going off script and making a totally unfamiliar concept long hand would take me more time for sure.
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 7 2013, 08:25 PM)
You might surprise yourself. I maight actually save time longhand for a lot of characters. I lost a lot of time scrolling around and just not seeing the line Iwas looking for, where as making it longhand I'd just write. Restricted gear muscle toner 5 points. I know what a lot of gear, edges and flaws, costs from memory, so I'd only be looking up a handful of items and I know where they are in the books. Now if I was going off script and making a totally unfamiliar concept long hand would take me more time for sure.
Also depends on gear layout. D&D 3.5 laid things out by "type." Weapon, armor, wands, saves, and "other." And inside that, things were arranged by price.
There was no way (aside from using Crystal Keep) to search for "items that use the 'bracers' slot" other than to read through the entire "misc" section. It was one thing that 4E did well (IIRC).
QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 7 2013, 06:18 PM)
I do not think speed is a useful metric to test, however.
It's useful, it's just not the be all and end all of a system.
The simpler and easier the system, the simpler and easier character generation tends to be. So, it's a useful correlation.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 7 2013, 08:46 PM)
Also depends on gear layout. D&D 3.5 laid things out by "type." Weapon, armor, wands, saves, and "other." And inside that, things were arranged by price.
There was no way (aside from using Crystal Keep) to search for "items that use the 'bracers' slot" other than to read through the entire "misc" section. It was one thing that 4E did well (IIRC).
There was no way (aside from using Crystal Keep) to search for "items that use the 'bracers' slot" other than to read through the entire "misc" section. It was one thing that 4E did well (IIRC).
If we are talking 1st level I have a hard time thinking a 4e D&d character would take more than 5-10 minutes once you get to know the game. I guess I could bog down with all the 50' of rope crap and my trusty 11' pole but really there aren't that many choices to make since it is class based and just picking the class handles 75% of the character details.
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 7 2013, 09:06 PM)
If we are talking 1st level I have a hard time thinking a 4e D&d character would take more than 5-10 minutes once you get to know the game. I guess I could bog down with all the 50' of rope crap and my trusty 11' pole but really there aren't that many choices to make since it is class based and just picking the class handles 75% of the character details.
1st level? Sure.
Try 10th. You get into magic items and you have oodles of money.
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 7 2013, 09:03 PM)
It's useful, it's just not the be all and end all of a system.
The simpler and easier the system, the simpler and easier character generation tends to be. So, it's a useful correlation.
The simpler and easier the system, the simpler and easier character generation tends to be. So, it's a useful correlation.
Simple isn't better by itself either. While I love Savage worlds and am currently playing in an awesome weird wars 2 game its simplified nature tends to also reduce varety and the generalized stats and abilities tend to reduce the ability to really make a distinct character. In SR we rarely have 2 characters feel the same on a mechanical level, in savage worlds it happens all the time. Yeah their personalities can make the difference, but its nice to have a mechanical variety as well.
I did the best I could, it's been a long time since I cracked open the books and made a character. Gear is the hardest part, especially the way Damien's sheet is laid out (isn't always obvious where a piece of gear is). Ended snagging a few pieces from anther character from ages past because it was "derp, of course." Another piece I'd looked for and couldn't find.
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 7 2013, 06:11 PM)
Simple isn't better by itself either. While I love Savage worlds and am currently playing in an awesome weird wars 2 game its simplified nature tends to also reduce varety and the generalized stats and abilities tend to reduce the ability to really make a distinct character. In SR we rarely have 2 characters feel the same on a mechanical level, in savage worlds it happens all the time. Yeah their personalities can make the difference, but its nice to have a mechanical variety as well.
Actually, I've discovered that Edges and Hindrances make a huge difference in the feel of a Savage Worlds character. That's less true in SR4.5, because while there's more to pick from, there's fewer "optimal" choices, so people tend to select from the same few.
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 8 2013, 07:06 PM)
Actually, I've discovered that Edges and Hindrances make a huge difference in the feel of a Savage Worlds character. That's less true in SR4.5, because while there's more to pick from, there's fewer "optimal" choices, so people tend to select from the same few.
Why do you have to be optimal, though?
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 9 2013, 09:07 AM)
Why do you have to be optimal, though?
Does that can of worms really need to be re-opened? You know it's just gonna be the same half dozen people going 'round and 'round.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 9 2013, 08:07 AM)
Why do you have to be optimal, though?
I put it in quotes for a reason. Basically, the Edges/Hindrances in SR4.5 aren't well balanced, so the same ones tend to keep popping up over and over. Some are just "better" than others. For example, it's mechanically better to take multiple social incompetences than it is to take Uncouth. If you aren't planning on taking any cyber, Sensitive System is quite a bargain. And so on.
Knew a guy who made it a requirement that your character actually have some kind of cyber (even something minor like a datajack) if you were to take Sensitive System as a way to explain how your character actually knew he/she wasn't cyber friendly.
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 9 2013, 04:51 PM)
Knew a guy who made it a requirement that your character actually have some kind of cyber (even something minor like a datajack) if you were to take Sensitive System as a way to explain how your character actually knew he/she wasn't cyber friendly.
While that's an interesting aside, it doesn't change the fact that certain edges/hindrances in SR4.5 are simply better than others, and pop up much more often as a result.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 7 2013, 09:46 PM)
There was no way (aside from using Crystal Keep) to search for "items that use the 'bracers' slot" other than to read through the entire "misc" section. It was one thing that 4E did well (IIRC).
Magic Item Compendium
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jun 10 2013, 08:20 AM)
Magic Item Compendium
Right, that one too. THAT book was laid out WONDERFULLY. I was shocked that Paizo didn't yoink that.
Hell, it's even laid out better than D&D 4E.
What I wanted to do: Some attribute-focused Jack Of All Trades.
What came out of it: An attribute-focused Ork streetsam.
What I missed: A name. A vehicle. And knowledge skills.
Edit: Obviously I used Chummer to make this.
What came out of it: An attribute-focused Ork streetsam.
What I missed: A name. A vehicle. And knowledge skills.
Edit: Obviously I used Chummer to make this.
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