hyzmarca
Aug 26 2004, 07:47 PM
QUOTE (Cochise @ Aug 26 2004, 11:42 AM) |
QUOTE (hyzmarca) | Unfortunatly, "Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous" only dealt with the early stages of his training. |
So what? So far the movie was the main concern, wasn't it? |
Not for me. Frankly, the movie sucked compared to most of the books.
QUOTE |
QUOTE | Somewhere around book 80, Remo casualy walks through a mine field, setpping on every mine in his path without taking any damage, because he knows exactly where to stand in order to avoid the effects of that particular type of anti-personel mine. |
Actually it bothers me that he sets them off in the first place ... One of the "bigger" things of Remo is the "traceless walk" thingy that Chiun even allows to walk on water.
|
I think it was done for effect. When a drug lord sees someone setting off mine after mine without receiving so much as a scratch he is more likely to give up information.
QUOTE |
QUOTE | Its one of the many reasons why it is simply insane to have Runners who are trained in Sinanju. |
Who said it had to be a 100% copy of Remo (or Chiun for that matter)?
|
True, but most solutions would result in nerfing Sinanju, to varying extents. generally speaking, anyone with training in Sinanju should be several times more powerful than someone with equal training in any other martial art. That fact alone is potentially game breaking.
Sinanju can provide some interesting situations and interesting NPCs. Its quite possible that the greatest house of assassins is still employed by the Emperor of the UCAS and could cross paths with PC runners. But, I wouldn't let a PC actually have Sinanju training.
There is only ever one Reigning Master and one apprentice, so rarity is an issue. Then, there is the scale to be concerned with. Sinanju is paid several tons of gold bullion annually for their services. They deal with gods and heads-of-state on a regular basis. If your runners regulary opperate on these levels, then a Sinanju character may be good for the campaign. If not, the Sinanju character would take over the campaign.
Siege
Aug 26 2004, 07:59 PM
Shinanju is just a gimmick to color adept powers:
Reflexes 2 (3)
+4 dice unarmed (2)
L Killing Hands (.5)
Traceless Step (.5)
That's a starting level adept capable of doing everything Remo Williams did in the movie.
As the adept initiates, more powers get added and the adept becomes even nastier.
-Siege
Bigity
Aug 26 2004, 08:50 PM
Feh, could your adept punch holes in solid wood with his finger??? I don't think so!!!11!!!11!
Siege
Aug 26 2004, 08:51 PM
Unarmed attack verus barrier rating - roll your unarmed combat + improved skill dice + combat pool and see if you can put your hand through it.
-Siege
Cochise
Aug 26 2004, 08:56 PM
At higher levels throw in the smashing blow and some wooden boards will be the easiest thing to that stunt with ...
Herald of Verjigorm
Aug 27 2004, 12:44 AM
QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
no it's not Bitbasher.
The person who did the delayed strikes 'sustains' the action. They can later at anytime choose to activate it, or dissipate it. |
Also wrong.
QUOTE (MitS 149) |
After a predetermined period, which is defined by the adept when the attack is made, the damage from the attack takes effect against the target. |
QUOTE (elsewhere in the same description) |
Once a delayed damage attack has been set in motion, the adept must sustain the power until it takes effect. During this time, the adept can perform no Exclusive magical activities and suffers a +2 modifier to all tests. The adept can drop the power at any time, but doing so dissipates the damage; there is no effect against the target. |
BitBasher
Aug 27 2004, 12:56 AM
Herold already made my point for me. The time the attack will hit is determined when the attack is made and cannot be altered later, except by dropping it alltogether.
Kagetenshi
Aug 27 2004, 02:16 AM
Does Focused Concentration help sustain Delay Damage?
~J
BitBasher
Aug 27 2004, 02:33 AM
Technically no, Focused concentration specifically states it helps to sustain spells.
mfb
Aug 27 2004, 12:59 PM
that said, i'd probably allow it as long as the player checked with me first.
CoalHeart
Aug 27 2004, 03:32 PM
Anyways! Can someone answer the question with a bit of Cannon ? Or some reasonable interpretation.
Does Delayed Damage count armor on the damage resistance?
What if you touch someone while they're wearing armor, then before the delay timer goes off they remove it. Do they then suffer full damage? Or would they benifit from the armor they wore initially?
Does armor count?
if so.
Can you use a called shot to bypass armor so they suffer full damamge?
Kagetenshi
Aug 27 2004, 03:38 PM
There is nothing in canon addressing armor and delay damage, sadly.
The problem with not applying it is that you can have people delay their damage for .0000001 seconds to bypass armor in melee, though it often makes more sense to not apply than to apply. I personally would probably go with armor worn at time of power use.
~J
Cochise
Aug 27 2004, 03:39 PM
QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
Does Delayed Damage count armor on the damage resistance?
|
There is still a normal attack roll (without permission to use combat pool for the non-obvious version) involved, regardless of the described situation of kissing the person on the cheek => If you roll successes against raised TN with the called shot modifier then no armor will apply, otherwise it will ...
QUOTE |
What if you touch someone while they're wearing armor, then before the delay timer goes off they remove it. Do they then suffer full damage? Or would they benifit from the armor they wore initially? |
Initially worn, since the damage test is resolved instantly after the attack. The damage simply doesn't surface before the sustaining time has ended
In general: Yes ...
QUOTE |
if so. Can you use a called shot to bypass armor so they suffer full damamge? |
Yes ...
BitBasher
Aug 27 2004, 04:05 PM
QUOTE |
QUOTE | if so. Can you use a called shot to bypass armor so they suffer full damamge? |
Yes ...
|
Only if you allow called shots to bypass armor in the first place
Rev
Aug 27 2004, 04:08 PM
And that would be a house rule.
CoalHeart
Aug 27 2004, 04:12 PM
melee called shots have the option to bypass armor as far as I knew
But another question as to why would armor count is...
Why does it count? The effect of the delayed damage is put on their aura. It can be assenced and attacked astrally to get rid of. So it means it's not physical damage at all but magic. How would armor help against something that hits your aura only?
Rev
Aug 27 2004, 04:13 PM
Because its magic and that is the way it happens to work.
Make up any explination you like. I already gave mine.
Smiley
Aug 27 2004, 04:27 PM
Doesn't it say in the description of the power that you add a charge to their aura that goes off at the appropriate time? To me, that would bypass armor, although that might be a bit broken. So I'd probably go with whatever armor they're wearing at the time the charge goes off. Then again, I might be imagining the aura charge thing, I don't know. I don't have the books in front of me right this second.
hyzmarca
Aug 27 2004, 04:57 PM
QUOTE (Siege) |
Shinanju is just a gimmick to color adept powers:
Reflexes 2 (3) +4 dice unarmed (2) L Killing Hands (.5) Traceless Step (.5)
That's a starting level adept capable of doing everything Remo Williams did in the movie.
As the adept initiates, more powers get added and the adept becomes even nastier.
-Siege |
But, used as a gimmick like that makes Sinanju lose most of its flavor.
Cochise
Aug 27 2004, 05:35 PM
QUOTE (BitBasher) |
Only if you allow called shots to bypass armor in the first place  |
You might want to take a look at page 85 and 86 of Cannon Companion under "Called Shot", last sentence: Only armor worn in the targeted location protects against this attack
That rule supercedes the core rule once you use advanced melee rules (And generally that's one of the main arguments players use when demanding armor nagation in ranged combat) ...
___
QUOTE (Rev) |
And that would be a house rule. |
Opposed to the house ruling that can be found in the FAQ on www.srrpg.com concerning ranged combat this one is most definitely not a house rule ...
___
QUOTE (ColdHeart) |
melee called shots have the option to bypass armor as far as I knew |
They can ...
Pretty much because the rules do say so. Yo have asked for cannon references. I gave 'em.
The damage resistance is resolved at the time of striking no sooner no later ...
QUOTE |
The effect of the delayed damage is put on their aura. It can be assenced and attacked astrally to get rid of. So it means it's not physical damage at all but magic. How would armor help against something that hits your aura only? |
it's magic ...
Siege
Aug 28 2004, 01:49 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
QUOTE (Siege @ Aug 26 2004, 02:59 PM) | Shinanju is just a gimmick to color adept powers:
Reflexes 2 (3) +4 dice unarmed (2) L Killing Hands (.5) Traceless Step (.5)
That's a starting level adept capable of doing everything Remo Williams did in the movie.
As the adept initiates, more powers get added and the adept becomes even nastier.
-Siege |
But, used as a gimmick like that makes Sinanju lose most of its flavor.
|
Hyz, show me a person who, after years of training, can run on open water without benefit of additional support.
Sinanju or Shinanju is already highly, highly fictionalized and remember, this is a game where unarmed attacks cannot kill you. They only do stun damage unless modified by bone lacing or a weapon of some sort.
A baseball bat does not deal out stun damage - but according to the rule set, it does.
In SR, you're either magical or you're not - and learning Ninjitsu or Shaolin Kung-Fu or any other mythical martial art will not grant you abilities beyond the physics already established.
So no, I don't think using Sinanju as window-dressing interferes with the flavor as the concept clashes with the SR mythology.
-Siege
BitBasher
Aug 28 2004, 04:41 AM
I made no claims as to canon, just that in some games bypassing armor is not allowed.
And in SR unarmed combat can definitely kill you, it just can't really kill you in a single action. It takes 2 actions for that barring extraordinary circumstances.
Siege
Aug 28 2004, 05:24 AM
Not to be argumentative Bit, but it was my understanding that a standard unarmed punch does M (stun) only?
What rule am I overlooking, beyond application of common sense?
-Siege
Kanada Ten
Aug 28 2004, 05:28 AM
Number of dice? M stun + successes: 12 successes takes Moderate stun to Deadly physical.
Siege
Aug 28 2004, 05:30 AM
Ahh, so it automatically rolls over now? Cool.
-Siege
Kanada Ten
Aug 28 2004, 05:33 AM
I'm not sure, actually. But even so, you can do deadly stun and then deadly physical...
Digital Heroin
Aug 28 2004, 06:03 AM
It makes sense... I mean, a troll punches a norm in the head, it's gonna do a site bit more than just break his nose...
Cain
Aug 28 2004, 09:11 AM
Siege-- it's always automatically rolled over. In fact, it's only in special circumstances that it doesn't. One player in my games didn't realize that, and accidentally killed someone he was trying to knock out.
DH: It still depends on the number of successes. That being said, a troll will generally have reach on a normal human, he's more likely to get a bundle of successes.
As for the rest of you pale pieces of a pig's ear, you can always say that your adept picked up a trick or two from Remo and/or Chuin. In the novels, that was generally enough to turn Joe Normal into Death Machine of Doom, as far as other normals were concerned.
Cochise
Aug 28 2004, 11:58 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
Number of dice? M stun + successes: 12 successes takes Moderate stun to Deadly physical. |
No ...
It's not that easy: M Stun with 12 net successes (that usually requires yet another adept vs. a mundane "weakling") will stage as follows:
M Stun => S Stun => D Stun and 8 net successes left ...
Now the question is: Do you play with deadlier overdamage or not?
If not those extra 8 net successes may be used to increase the power of the attack by 1 per 2 successes => The victim will do a damage resistance test against [Str attcker] +4 D Stun ...
In this situation you'll never cause physical damage in one blow against a previously unharmed opponent.
If you play with deadlier overdamage the 8 net successes can be used for two different things: Either you increase the power of the attack as in the previous example and / or you use 2 net successes to inflict 1 box of extra damage.
In order to be able to inflict those extra boxes, the power of the attack must be >= 1.5*Bod[victim] (or >= bod[victim] if you choose the really nasty game play).
Provided that the attacker's strenght meets that requirement, the victim will then have to resist [STR attacker] D Stun plus 4 boxes of extra damage (The question of how those extra boxes are resisted can be quite controversial).
The net successes could be assigned to either effect so, it could be necessary to put some successes into power before the deadlier overdamage can be applied (e.g. 2 into power and then 2 boxes extra damage).
In order to to kill someone (who is uninjured) in a single blow with that, You'd need 24 net successes and a strenght that fullfills the deadlier overdamage requirements and the victim must not score any successes on his resitance test ...
____
There is however another option apart from the already mentioned cyberware:
Martial Arts with the Vicious Blow maneuver inflict physical damage at IIRC increased TN (+1) and stage damage with per 4 net succusses instead of the normal 2 ... 8 net successes will do the trick there (provided that the victim doesn't score on its resistance test) ...
Bigity
Aug 28 2004, 01:36 PM
I thought Deadlier Over Damage only applied to Physical wounds.
Cochise
Aug 28 2004, 02:19 PM
Can't remember such a limitation on that rule ... but I could be wrong ... haven't got my books within reach ...
Kagetenshi
Aug 28 2004, 02:26 PM
I'm quite certain that stun stages normally into Physical in a LS-MS-SS-DS-LP-MP-SP-DP manner.
~J
BitBasher
Aug 28 2004, 02:43 PM
No, the only rules in the game for doing more than 10 boxes of damage in a round (outside of naval scale damage) are a single extra box for each 2 sucesses beyond deadly. You would need 24 net sucesses using the deadlier overdamage rule to fill up both condition monitors in one hit.
EDIT: That wouldn't actually kill them either in retrospect, just put them at dual deadly. They still are alive but in overflow. You would need (24+(TargetBody*2))sucesses to kill them outright by filling their overflow. A human with a body of three would need 30 net sucesses against him, and a troll with body 10 would need 44 net sucesses against him.
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