For the final time (which of course means it will never end as people keep bringing up again and again ang again) you cannoy hit a specific location in Shadowrun. All attacks are purely abstract, and if you don't like it, hey, that's fine! I hate it too! But refusing to accept that simply is canon is insane!

Shadowrun is not a system built to allow precision and its combat has been constructed around the assumption of fully abstract combat. There are inconsistencies, yes, and where the Shadowrun designers have written them in, very stupid things occur, but this does not change the overall structure of the system. Please understand that it is enourmously frustrating for this very stupid debate to continue when there is, in fact, nothing to debate. No one's saying you have to like it— but you do have to accept it as canon.

Did you NOT just read that e-mail? Why would ShadowFaq make the distinction between armor ratings on arms, legs, front and back torso, and head if you can't hit a specific location? You tell me who's refusing to accept what IS canon. You just heard it from the people who WROTE canon, for God's sake.

Actually, did just read that. Unfortunately, it fails to clearly provide a game mechanic that allows for actually shooting that head in the first place, and two, apparently seems to completely reverse the previous canon position that targeting specific bodyparts was not allowable within Shadowrun on < car sized targets— or, at least, it ambiguously implies that. I don't know if this is something that change when I skipped out on these forums for a couple months. Even less fortunate, this opens up yet another can of shit in this ceaseless debate. Kind of funny when you consider that "abstract" was supposed to ease things along.

The game mechanic stays the same. If you're just going to shoot someone, fine, pull the trigger. If you want to hit a leg or an arm or a head, call the shot. You'll disable the limb (or pop the noggin like grape) and it'll be easier to do because only the armor that's on that body part will apply. Not difficult at all.
Is the complication in knowing what armor goes where? Because I don't see the problem.

It's grafting a hit location system into a game that is not at all designed for it. It's not like people haven't written up hit location systems for SR already, but they had the good sense to not piece it together half assed after the fact. That Shadowfaq email creates a completely senseless system that is not at all elegantly playable and for which Shadowrun was not designed.

Again, I don't see the problem. It seems like it works to me. I guess I'm just not seeing how aiming at what you specifically want to hit is half-assed and "not at all elegantly playable." (Whatever the hell THAT is.) You call a shot, you shoot. Arm, leg, whatever. It's. Not. That. Hard.

So you didn't notice that none of the armor is intended to work with hit locations and you have to do all the work yourself through a system that was designed for cyberlimb armor (and, incidentally, should never have been done with separate armor locations to begin with)?

You have to read the whole thing, not just until you see something you don't like. Try the second method, which is the common sense, not hard at all method that I've been harping on.

Unfortunately, that method doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, and really, really begins to break down when you start talking about different pant legs, arms on jackets as opposed to torso segments, and so on.

The point being, Shadowrun was not designed with hit locations in mind. In fact, quite the opposite. The armor system is wholely abstract, and any attempts to add on specific hit locations after the fact is inane.

Called Shots are fine when all they do is up the DL, or for a specific effect, at a cost of +4 to the attacker's TN (options #1 and #3 of the FAQ). Bypassing armor (FAQ option #2) is a tacked on ruling that severly screws with the whole system.

This is why people like Raygun have gone to the trouble of reworking the entire system (armor and all) in order to logically include hit locations.

Helmets add their rating to the overall armor of the entire body, not just the head. This is a result of the abstract combat and armor system used in Shadowrun.

Yes indeed, helmets, which give an abstract bonus to protection regardless of where you get hit, and the Armor Rating of which seems to have very little to do with how protective they actually are and more to do with what kind of attacks would generally hit the head at random and what kinds of effects those random attacks would have.

I know. But the inclusion of helmets suggests they were thinking with a called shot idea in mind. Not to mention, there are certain armor types with variable amounts of coverage.

While it is an abstract system, the way they designed it allows for specifics to be thrown in at the will of the GM. It's part of system adaptibility.

Well, consider then that Called Shots to bypass armor was not introduced until just last year, which was 14 years after the armor and combat systems were initially introduced. The original intent of the system was abstract, with Called Shots being to unspecified areas and rsulting in an increase to the DL.

Helmets were introduced for flavor (and to include all the nifty accessories), the same as Forearm Guards and Snake Mesh socks.

Was the "Called Shots To Bypass Armor" thingie ever added to the SR3 Errata? I thought it was, but it isn't there now.

The ShadowFAQ implies that you can make a Call Shot to a specific location. You can shoot at a specific location and if you hit, get to apply only armour at that location. That is also Canon FAQ, as per email. However, it is also Canon FAQ that you can call shots to totally bypass armour. Unless you happen to be enforcing Wound Effects and using Call Shots to produce specific Wound Effect, there is no real advantage to using "call shot to a specific location"!

Yes, the FAQ and ShadowFAQ's subsequent email implies allowance for shots at a location, but the FAQ also allows bypassing of armour entirely. Remember all this is implication since ShadowFAQ never disputed the email's Call Shot to a Specific location. In tacitly allowing a then-house rule called "Call Shots to Specific location", he has made it at least semi-Canon. If ShadowFAQ's intent was to simply provide official suggestions as to how to calculate Armour in a specific location for a house ruling of the FAQ, he did not make that clear, so you may think that it is Canon.

However, it also opens another can of worms. How specific can you call a location? You might want to shoot off his left ear or his right pinkie or at the hinge of the armoured helmet he is wearing. How do you calculate the armour at his ear? Or his pinkie?

Very well, he is in a position that gives his word semi-Canon weight. By his own admission he has no official capacity to cahnge the rules, but his official capacity allows him to interpret the rules as to give them semi-Canon weight or at least weight disproportionate to someone else.

Unfortunately, with the errata, it looks like form-fitting dosen't screw you over in the quickness department.

At least if you're layering the Full-body Suit it only gives +2 ballistic for being layered.

*sighs*

Time to bust out the APDS ammo, I guess...

That and actually have NPCs make called shots to bypass armor. I'd been holding off on doing that...

7/3 is really not that much armor. Remember, it is not hardened, so even things like holdout pistols will still be doing a base of 2L damage. Also, with the way net successes are compared in ranged combat, armor alone is not enough. For all of the non-combat types with comparatively lower Body scores and Combat Pools, nearly any attack from a moderately competent opponent can wound.

The sammies, with high Body and Combat Pool, will do better, but they will also be commonly running into things that can overpower 7 points of ballistic armor. And you don't have to break out Panther Cannons or APDS ammo, either. Anything heavier than a pistol will do the trick, and that includes cheap stuff any punk ganger can get such as Remington 990's, Sandler TMP submachine guns, etc.

I only ever remember seeing it in the FAQ.

And your last sentence should be in large bold flashing neon letters!

Indeed, I'd rather have higher damage codes than less armour. Forcing more sucesses is always good.

Has anyone got the latest rulebook? Perhaps it says that in there, since the FAQ was updated to include called shots to unarmoured locations way before this latest printing.

All the errata in the latest (and every) edition is listed on the shadowrunrpg page.

Most of the corporate security goons we run into on runs are wearing medium security armor with helmets which puts em' at 7/7. Most of my crew stuck it out with 5/3 armor jackets and would take the guards down with regular SMG and pistol ammunition. We would never touch the guards security armor because they're normally rigged with security and doc wagon beacons. The average security guard we would run into would lose his combat pool after the first shot that we fired at them due to armor encumberance. Sure, their TN# to stage damage down is normally knocked down to 2 if you don't throw full auto at em', but when they only have 4 or 5 body dice to soak damage with you can plink them down fairly easily.

Has anyone here seen a "Tac-Jac"?

When we saw this thing, it was immediately how we pictured the armor jackets and secure jackets.

Shortly thereafter, armor jacket and secure jacket use dropped off dramatically.

IME armor rating is great, but the number of successes is what really matters. You can have armor of 15/15 and be unable to avoid damage if the opposition always gets more successes than you.

unless it's hardened armor

True.

Hardened armor? Yuck... if I was a well-armed security guard in that position I'd put a call through to Lonestar Security, Errant, or whomever was employing me and yell for heavy fire support because something nasty was going down then try to stall them as long as possible. If it looked like I was gonna' die, then you'd catch my ass throwing in my resignation and running like a lil' biatch. If you were assaulting a corporate main building tho', chances are they already have heavy fire support on the premises... among other things.

If you're looking to really beat their armor and give them a hard fight, remember that spells like Stunbolt and I think Manabolt(don't have my books on me) both resist with willpower and don't get affected by armor. Also, chemical attacks using DMSO blow right through armor in general, as do certain physical attacks which use Impact rather than Ballistic Ratings. It was a little....no, a lot cheesy, but a GM I played with once rigged a speaker to a door to carry on a normal conversation on the other side so we'd think there were guards right outside it. The door was wired to a monofilament trip-wire that activated an auto firing droned turret that used shotguns loaded with DMSO capsule rounds with a stun agent in them(don't remember the specifics) It was designed specifically to defeat anyone who went in armored.

Spectre, that wouldn't defeat anyone who went in armored, it'd defeat anyone without a good dose of blood filtration. Or someone with some nice chem sealed clothing (my second favorite mod to ffba, first being non-conductive).

Besides which, the drone would use its first action locking its sensors on, after which the runners go, if they're smart, they all move out of the line of fire from the drone (by going to the sides of the door) and then close the door or figure some alternate way out.

Tarantula, using DMSO as a part of the chemical attack makes the armor ineffective. Again, I don't have my books in front of me, but the rules for it are somewhere in Man and Machine, and DMSO bypasses normal armor(chemically sealed armor, or NBC armor i don't think suffer this) and dope the person with said chemical. I'm not saying that it was used as a part of a dart gun attack. That would factor in the armor

Also, the drone had already locked onto us using a proximity trigger and thermal scanners through weak walls. The firing mechanism was the only thing rigged to the monofilament wire, which wasn't a "trip wire" in the sense that it was meant to cut into your foot. That was just a side benefit. The wire was slaved to a motion sensor which thens et off the guns. The rigger who set it up set it along a heating pipe, so it's thermal signature was distorted by the heat of the pipe, making it look like something other than a turret when we scanned it in thermal. None of us had access to ultrasound,

And like I said, this was a fairly cheesy sidestep around the rules for armor. All the thugs we went up against used similar weapons, but walked around in regular armor.

I said it wasn't designed versus armor, it would take out anyone, armor or not.

Also, I'm pretty sure DMSO is reduced by impact armor, but I'd have to check the rules on it. I never said it was a dart gun attack either.

Drones can't see through walls, that there is non-cannon. So, who did the drone lock onto? They can't lock multiple people at once. What if I had a bar of thermite? Would it lock on that because its only using thermal sensors? If the drone was locked on someone other than the person standing in the doorway, it'd most likely try to shoot through the wall directly at them, splattering the wall and doing a whole lot of nothing.

I believe it was a house rule, but it was one we all agreed with. Thermographic and Ultrasonic vision are two ways anyone and anything can see through walls. But there are problems with both.

For thermal, the problem is additional heat sources in the area matching or exceeding the thermal signature of the targets. If I'm alking around outside but behind a cold car, and you use thermo to try and spot me, you've got me cold(or hot in thsi case) But if I turn the car on and let the engine heat up, the car's thermal signature will blot out my own, so strictly by thermal, you'd only see the running car.

Ultrasonic has a problem with density as I remember it. Ultrasound is not much different than a microwave's emitter. I think the frequency of the waves is lower, but like a microwave transmitter/emitter radio, the Ultrasound scanner reads the differences in vibrations between each wave as it htis somethign wtih enough density to bounce thew aves back.. If I was standing behind a normal plaster and wood wall, Ultrasound has me. But if I'm standing behind a firewall or a security wall with armor plating beneath it, the waves are not gonna pass through that and return to the emitter.

Look at the situation. The turret was set up behind an intervening wall in front of a heating pipe. And we were sure we heard voice on the other side of the closed door thanks to the speaker. I was the one who did the scanning in thermal and found the heat source. Since it didn't look like a turret with the variance in heat, and we had voices in the immediate area, I concluded that thte extended heat source was the two people talking near the heating pipe to stay warm, and not some big nasty drone waiting for us.

From the Drone's perspective however, things were quite different. We were inside a cool stairwell on an autumn night. The temperature inside the stairwell was a constant until our bodies pnged off it's thermal sensors. Immediately, the drone begins to track us. But it can't fire at us because the firing controls are slaved to the monofilament trip-wire runnign along the doorway. There's also a small set of steps leading up to the door, so you can't jsut leap in and start blazing; you have to take at least oen fo teh steps to get a good clearance of the door when you do leap. Our door cracker opens the door, and I get ready to go in shooting. I pop through the door, take the top step to get a good jump, trip the trip wire, release the drone's already aimed and primed firing circuits, and voila, anti armor trap. Basically it had already aimed at us, and was holding action to fire when one of us tripped the wire.

Also note that this was not a run created by me, and the GM didn't reveal all thes ecrets of this trap to us. All I can do si reveerse engineer what I saw and what happened.

As I said before, unless the drone specifically spent a complex action to sucessfully detect and lock on YOU specifically, it would have fired at whoever it did lock onto instead. As you said, the tripwire was the trigger, if it locked on the door-cracker (first person up until you went through the door) it should have shot directly at him, ignoring the fact that there was an intervening wall in the way.

As for ultrasound, why is a plaster wall not enough to reflect the waves back?

Yes, and interrupeted is a 0, urban environments are +2.

Also, the description for Direct LOS is: "The direct LOS modifier applies only if a clear, continuous straight line can be traced between the gunner and the target, with nothing blocking the view. This generally occurs only in ground-to-air and air-to-ground attacks. For ground-to-ground attacks this modifier applies only when the target is sitting in clear, open terrain."

Interrupted is a 0 modifier, the example is things like dumpsters or foliage in the way. I'd say for through a wall, you'd get a +8 the same as blind-fire for a modifier.

No where does it say that drones can or can't see through walls, and theres no real answer, if they can see through walls, theres no reason for everyone not to always carry a custom microdrone in their pocket to tell them when anyones getting close within at minimum a 250meter radius.

For the first part, I don't know. Like I said, I don't know what the GM did, but I was thefirst one through the door, soI was the first one shot at.

As for the second one, that's easy enough to prove out. It's the same reason you can put an opaque plastic container in a microwave and still cook something inside it. From our point of view, a wall of plaster is solid. It's got no visible way through it. But when you magnify the view of a piece of plaster, you'll see that it's jsut a bunch of paper fibers linked together with a bondign agent. there's plenty of room between them. there actually has to be so that moisture can pass through the plaster without becoming trapped in it, removing the likelihood that it will rot if exposed to water or other spoilable liquids. It is on that level that ultrasound fliters through the plaster and back again to the reciever. Also, the paper fibers of plaster don't really distort the ultrasonic waves.

Now a specially designed wall, or a really thick wall is another matter entirely. At the same microscopic level, the denser, thicker materials used in that wall are not designed to absorb or allow materials to pass through them. They're designed to reflect them back out away from the wall. These materials in turn disrupt the patterns of ultrasound beamed at them, distorting their shape and sending them back to the emitter before they reach your body.

Of course, the material can only do so much against so much power. A handheld ultrasonic emitter/reciever combo stops at a wall. But that same wall and person, subjected to a scan by a tectonic survey scanner, which uses a vastly more powerful beam of ultrasonic energy to detect earthquake fault lines in the earth's crust will be easily beaten. Of course, at that level, the person's body and internal organs will probably begin to burst from the amount of ultrasonic energy running through their body, but this isn't a small hand portable emitter we're talking here.

Last discussion on drones spotting things through walls.

The locking-on rules for drones are something I'd love to rant about, but it would require some really long messages, and most GMs who know the rigging and drone rules don't seem interested in any changes to them, no matter whether they're reasonable or not.

Spectre, on a small enough scale, EVERY material is mostly space. By your logic of why the ultrasound is able to pass through a plaster wall works the exact same for any material you felt like inserting into it.

Sound travels by the molecules hitting eachother and propogating the wave. Denser materials actually trasmit sound better (sound travels faster in water than air for example). If the walls are thick enough that the ultrasound wouldn't penetrate, according to your logic, then they should be thick enough that shooting full auto would cause someone on the other side of the wall to hear nothing, no matter what hearing augmentation they have.