Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Laced Question
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Swing Kid
If a sam were to get, say, Titanium Bone Lacing and Retractable Spurs, then he would do more base damage with the spurs retracted (albeit only Stun) than with them exposed. Strength [M] Physical for Spurs, and Strength +4 [M] Stun retracted. So, if he has, say, a Strength of 5 then he would do 5M Physical with the Spurs extended and 9M Stun with them retracted. According to SR3, with bone lacing, the character with Bone Lacing can opt to have his attacks do physical damage at half of the power (rounded up), so this example character could opt to do 5M Physical without the spurs. So essentially, he would do the same damage with or without his spurs. Is this correct? Or would the bone lacing bonus (or part of it) extend, so to speak, to the spurs? I think the rules make my above example accurate, so my real question is should there be a house rule for this? Or better yet, have I missed a printed rule somewhere that already covers this?
A Clockwork Lime
That is correct.

But apply some Dikote and the situation changes [(STR+1)S], especially since a pair of Spurs also gives you a +50% Strength bonus to Power on top of that. No house rule required.

It's even more abundant which is the better choice when you consider how much Essence you lose with the Bone Lacing. Irk!
Swing Kid
Daddy like
FXcalibur
I'm not able to visualize what a spur is, and the SR3 description isn't helping much. Okay, attached to a bone? Set of three attached to a hand? Are they like wolverine's claws, then? I'm confused.
A Clockwork Lime
That's exactly what they are. They don't have to come in three's, though. They could be just like the spike Robocop had (albeit without the induction datajack thing or whatever he used it as).
Blaze
Does that +50% Strength count with hand razors too, or is it just spurs?
The 'three spurs attached to the hand' would probably look like Wolverine, though bear in mind that they can't be retracted in that format. The single retractable spur would be akin to Wolverine just using the central blade, though perhaps slightly longer (say, about the length of your forearm). Also, the blades come from the back of the hand (fixed version) or back of the wrist (retractable) rather than from between the knuckles.

-JH.
A Clockwork Lime
Razors and Spurs. For some strange reason, Handblades are exempt.
Swing Kid
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
That is correct.

But apply some Dikote and the situation changes [(STR+1)S], especially since a pair of Spurs also gives you a +50% Strength bonus to Power on top of that. No house rule required.

It's even more abundant which is the better choice when you consider how much Essence you lose with the Bone Lacing. Irk!

Where can I read up on the +50% strength for spurs? And why doesn't the description for spurs say Strength*1.5 [M] if it gives a fifty percent bonus? I have no doubt that you are accurate, I just want to show one of the other players that rule in print (he doesn't believe in the power of the forum).
A Clockwork Lime
SR3 p. 121, Hand Razors and Spurs. Actually after reading it, it only specifies spurs and razors at the beginning. The actual rule is a blanket rule for all cybernetic-implant weapons used in pairs.
Blaze
*Succumbs to temptation, breaks out BBB*
p121- a matched pair of spurs or razors allow the player to add +50% of his/her strength on top of base damage.
So a pair of dikoted improved razors on a S5 character would do 11M?! God help us if he/she gets more than one net success...

-JH.
Swing Kid
Thanks fella's...owe ya one
kevyn668
Once again, don't forget that you can also gain extra dice if you A) take "Off Hand: Cyber Combat (Spurs)" or B) the "Abidexterity Edge" AND get the strength bonus if you have a dual set.

[Side note: what happens if you take both (Ambi and Off Hand)? Was there a rule in the CC that only the highest rating counts? I can't remember but I would assume so.]

That said, I personaly would allow the spurs to look like pretty much anything the player wanted as long as the damage code stayed the same.
Nikoli
My personal fav was hatchet man's set. one going forward, the other backward, same arm.
Lilt
QUOTE (Nikoli)
My personal fav was hatchet man's set.  one going forward, the other backward, same arm.

That's cool, but you don't get the power bonus for that. You only get the power bonus when you purchace a set for each hand or arm.
Bearclaw
Is that right?
If you use a pair, then take the off hand weapon skill, do you get both the bonus damage and the extra dice?
A Clockwork Lime
Yep. The damage hike is a characteristic of the weapon, like Reach or the special abilities of a whip. The bonus dice Off-Hand Weapon Skill or Ambidexterity provides is a characteristic of skill. The weapon continues to have the same stats regardless of whether you're using Ambidexterity or not, just like every other weapon in the game.
Nikoli
Personally I like the idea of the +%Str as a bonus for any occaision when you wield two mellee weapons (whips not included)
matched weapons= +50%
off-hand lower code=+25%
off-hand higher=Use off-hand as base and treat on hand as off for determining the power increase.
Apathy
QUOTE
So a pair of dikoted improved razors on a S5 character would do 11M?!

Actually, I think a person with a matched set of spurs would have a damage code of: (Str*1.5)+1S
So if you've got Str5, you'd do 8S (still not too shabby).

Even more: you get to throw additional skill dice for your skill with the off hand weapon (+50% of your offhand skill).

However, using both right- and left-hand spurs would require you to either get the ambidexterity edge, or take an additional skill in Offhand Cyberweapons.
A Clockwork Lime
<points to the "improved razors" part> The character would have 11M with those. smile.gif
Apathy
QUOTE
<points to the "improved razors" part>

Ah ha! You caught me not paying attention again. Sorry, I'll shut up now.
Swing Kid
I really appreciate the feedback fella's. So, let's do the math for the actual character at hand. I will only post the required stats.

Character Name: Meat
Troll Street Sam
Strength [9]
Ambidexterity [2] edge (4 points)
Wushu Kung Fu [6]
Cyber-Implant Combat [5] / Specialization-Spurs [7]
Off-Handed Cyber-Implant Combat [5] / Specialization-Spurs [7]
Titanium Bone Lacing
Retractable Spurs - Dikoted

So, if I understand you fella's correctly, when using the spurs, I should be rolling a base 10 dice with a damage code of 14S. When using standard hand to hand combat (spurs retracted), I would be rolling 6 dice base damage 13M Stun/6M Physical. Is there any flaw in this math?
A Clockwork Lime
Honestly? Unless you plan on attacking unarmed quite a bit, I'd drop Kung Fu to 4 and just get the Close Combat and Close Combat: Cyber-Implant Weapons maneuvers with it. Actually I'd recommend Pentjak-Silat since it has cooler abilities, but stick with Kung Fu if it fits your story better.

If you want or need to acquire another maneuver (like Whirling), just select another variant of the art at a rating of 4 and snag the two maneuvers that way. Continue until you have all the maneuvers you like.

The Titanium Bone Lacing is wasted in this build, at least as it relates to the use of his spurs. You'd be better off with a Dermal Sheath and a few other implants. If you want to be able to stun an opponent, just get some Shock Hands and talk to your GM about "routing" them to your spurs instead of your fists.

But yeah, if you want to fight unarmed as well as armed, you might as well keep one of your Martial Arts at 6. At least you won't totally be wasting the required maneuvers you need to get the ones for Cyber-Implant that way. smile.gif And, ideally, you could just get Close Combat, Close Combat: Cyber, and Whirling and be done with it; use Whirling and unarmed combat when fighting a swam of opponents and use your spurs in one-on-one combat. Best of both worlds that way.
TinkerGnome
The problem with dermal enhancements of most sorts is that they are easy to spot and illegal. Personally, I prefer to have characters which don't get stopped by every cop who sees them (though the troll will probably be stopped by several cops, after the first one sees him and waits for backup before approaching him).
A Clockwork Lime
Dermal Sheathes are perfectly legal with a permit, and its going to get you pulled over about as much as carrying a pistol will. It can easily be written off as something a character got while serving in the military, too.
TinkerGnome
An ork or troll with obviously controlled cyber is still going to have to show permits quite a bit, and those fake IDs can't last forever. Not to mention that when it does fail, the sheath is Class A cyberware (3 year prison term in the UCAS).

If your character has a real SIN and really is ex-military, you should have any trouble with getting a permit for it. But using your real SIN has its own problems.
A Clockwork Lime
If you're getting pulled over to be asked about your implants, you're almost always in either in a perfectly legal situation (walking down the street, at an airport, etc.) or a situation where getting pulled over is a problem to begin with (ie, on a run where you're trying to be subtle). You don't hire a big honkin' troll with heavy armor for subtly anymore than you hire someone toting a Panther Assault Cannon for subtly.

Besides, in practice, I've never had a character that had a Dermal Sheath get pulled over or hassled because of it in multiple games run by multiple GMs. It's just one of those things that rarely comes up in a game.

Dermals sheathes are relatively cheap, easy on the system, and popular. Aside from some minor semantics, it makes perfect sense that a combat-heavy character would have them unless he's some kind of superspy who needs to be subtle 24/7.
Swing Kid
I can't change any of the stats as gameplay has already started. Fact is, he is this way for a reason. We put together a team of corporate sponsored Trogs who don't get out much. They tend to fight with each other alot, so the non-lethal combat is very necessary (not that we actually get to hurt each other much). He likes kung-fu trids, which explains the Wushu. I appreciate the advice though, looking back, I think the dermal sheathing would have been a great idea.
Does anyone see any flaws in my previous math for the damages/die rolls?
Traks
Not to create a new topic, one related to dermal sheathing.
I just thought that it degrades over time, because it works like bullet-proof vest.
Of course for game balance issues no one would buy so costly thing that should be re-operated every 2 months.

But from logical point of view, this protection would be more like pieces of steel/titanuim with big holes and much less of protection. *sigh* another moot topic to argue about, but I couldn't resist.
TinkerGnome
Not exactly, Traks. There is a problem with dermal sheathing or plating not properly healing after taking a big hole in it, though. Man and Machine p 133.
snowRaven
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
Honestly? Unless you plan on attacking unarmed quite a bit, I'd drop Kung Fu to 4 and just get the Close Combat and Close Combat: Cyber-Implant Weapons maneuvers with it. Actually I'd recommend Pentjak-Silat since it has cooler abilities, but stick with Kung Fu if it fits your story better.

I'd recommend Pentjak-Silat too, if he wants to buy maneuvers for CyberImplant Combat. You know, since Kung Fu only allows you to buy maneuvers for Edged Weapons and Polearms upsidedown.gif
A Clockwork Lime
I knew there was some other reason I was recommending it. biggrin.gif
Drain Brain
Just a minor point that nobody thought to mention, but regardless of what the damage statistics are, spurs can have their own uses beyond hurting folk (shock horror)...

It's pointy and sharp, right? Pop that lock, cut that rope - the blade of a spur can fulfil the same utility functions as a knife in my book - and you can't drop it.

As for locations, I've always shied away from the whole back of the hand thing. Think of it - my hand from wrist to knuckle is about as long of one of my cigarettes. That's how much you've got to work with. The distance from my elbow to my wrist, however, is longer than some bayonets. Also, for good ideas on spur positioning, check out "Guyver" (sp?) which I know for sure was a live movie, but I think was based on some form of animation originally...

cyber.gif And here's the weekly breakdown of the Cyber Combatant's Wet-Dream Wish-List:

Spurs:
Right Hand
Left Hand
Right Forearm, toward hand
Right Forearm, toward elbow
Right Upper-Arm, toward elbow
Left Forearm, toward elbow
Left Forearm, toward hand
Left Upper-Arm, toward elbow
Right Thigh, Downward
Right Shin, Upward
Right Leg, down through heel (combat version of the foot anchor?)
Left Thigh, Downward
Left Shin, Upward
Left Leg, down through heel

Razors:
Right hand
Left Hand
Right Foot
Left Foot (You never know who will attack you in the shower... could be useful when you're "getting the soap!")

Hand Blade:
Right Hand
Left Hand

Other:
Horn Implants
Fangs

This should, if my CG is working right, add up to 480,000 nuyen and 4.4 essence, assuming retractability for all items and improved blades for the razors. Didn't add on any dikoting though.... wink.gif
Hasaku
Now start calling yourself "The Shrike" and hang out near the Time Tombs and you're good to go.
Nikoli
Heh, Hasaku nice call.

And to think I thought I was the only person to think that spurs in the calves were a good combat option. deadlier kicks and tree climbing in one handy outfit.

though, to be fair, you'd need to combine MBW-4 with just about every initiative increasing option available to stuff in for the 'time control' of the shrike, along with dermal sheathing and ruthenium polymer option.

Moon-Hawk
I know you've already started but this is still relevant:
If you get ambidexterity [3] for 6 points, instead of [2] for 4 points, and you can ignore off-hand skills and just use your normal skills in place of them. Depending on how much you're planning on raising those skills, it just might be worth it to try to buy that edge with karma, as it'll save you karma in the long run as you only have to raise one skill instead of two, but that depends on how high you're planning to take that skill.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012