I'm curious what would be your call in this last case then.

I'm not even sure my english is good enough for saying there's a RAW interpretation here.

I dont like this. I prefer to catter to the SR motto of magic based on real world cultures and beliefs, and in this case the separation between intellectual and spiritual is not always clear or evident. Even Hermeticism has its body of exoterical knowledge as passed down from Hermes Trimegistus (or something) through generations, and the fact it always cattered to an intellectual strata of practitioners looking for illumination/truth, dont discards the fact that all this is, in the end, just another form of belief, as abstract and subjective as shamanism or voudun or candomblé or shinto. In other words: hermeticism is not really based on intellect - its based on the belief that magic (and illumination) is achieved through intellectual thinking and methods.

With the distinct lack of a game definition for "terrain under control" my ruling would be that anything that is within LOS and doesn't conflict with additional and explicit limitations like domain borders and/or maximum distances to controlling (!) magicians [of any tradition] can and should be considered as being "under the control" of the entity in question (be it a spirit entity or a "lesser", awakened critter), since that doesn't result in contradictions within the rules ... just like from a tactical standpoint any terrain within my proximity that I can see or otherwise perceive and physically influence with whatever tools I have is under my (current) control - even in situations where I have to share control over the terrain with others or said "control" is in conflict with more abstract definitions like laws on possession vs. ownership.



There certainly is none that can be referenced as being "explicit"

Well, this makes movement essentially a telekinetic power. I think I'd get rid of the "terrain it controls" part of the movement power, and invent a movement (domain only) specific to nature spirits. This would coincide to the interpretation you gave I think.

I honestly don't know what to do with the elementals movement power. Didn't come very often in my games, and was never really game breaking. But I… don't like the idea. Anyway, all this remind me why I would have liked a "real" SR4, that's to say a game revising SR3.

Certainly ... just as powers are on a general level often compared to spells I see no harm in classifying them in accordance to the spell categories and subcategories.



Largely ... and more importantly it would fall in line with variants like movement (self-only).



I would certainly have preferred that myself.

...then why Air elemental has telekinesis, if its movement already is supposed to mean that ?


Frankly, this was obvious to my group from the first time we put eyes on it - elementals have the power to influence their elemental matter as an extension of their bodies, or within a certain reach, so an Water elemental on a river can acelerate players swimming on it, or slow down enemies. But again, its our particular interpretation, and even if its totally obvious for us, it may not be for others. We will never know the "canon" intended effect except if the author of the rule come here personally and clarify.

As Cochise underlined, my use of telekinetic was a comparison to sorcery spells classified under "telekinetic manipulation". Magic fingers and levitate are different telekinetic manipulation, like movement and psychokinesis seem to be, to me, different telekinetic power. I'd like to underline that psychokinesis, by the book, is described as similar to Magic finger spell.

That's what's implied for me by the use of movement by dual critters or non "domain-dependant" spirits other than elementals. Maybe the movement for nature spirits is something different. But for elementals, I'll keep it as pure telekinesis, or forbid it if my group finds it stupid. Your option about considering that elementals "control" their elements is wrong in that it should be the difference between elementals and spirit of the elements.

I don't speak for anyone, but I recall that the issue for many being that a shaman would not subjugate a venerated spirit of nature or anscestry by binding it and compelling it to do the shaman's bidding.


You wouldn't call it a totem obviously, but consider players who want to use a certain game mechanic while at the same time roleplaying a character style of their choice.

You mean that was in one of the book's fluff? I don't get the problem otherwise…



And so, as Cochise and me told you, this mechanic existed before SR4, and can be found in MitS. That's called elemental mages. So the game mechanic existed for mages without having to invent a "mentor" spirit concept.

No, it's what I remember reading many times in this forum. I'm not going to look it up, I don't see any "problem" either, and I'm not debating you. It's not important to me what edition you prefer to play.

Unless of course said shaman knew the Invoking metamagical technique that was a requirement for allowing him to do such binding in the first place. Standard nature spirits simply couldn't be bound like elementals regardless of whether or not the shaman "requested" his favors more politely than a hermetic did when ordering his elementals around.

Any "issues" those "many" had with shamans subjugating great form nature spirits by binding them had these "issues" not necessarily based upon the Shadowrun magic fluff or rule information but rather from what they interpreted themselves into the matter based on their existent (or non-existent) knowledge about real world shamanism.

With the matter settled for Hermetic and Shamanic trads I went on to possession tradition and...

...man, what a mess. With all due respect, but I feel embarassed for whoever wrote this.

Voodoo allowed to possess unwilling victims ? Quaballa allowed to possess alive beings ? These things are totally WRONG as per the real world practices. A Voodoo/Santeria/Candomble Loa/Patron/Santo only rides who they find deserving of the honor, so they would never agree to ride an unwilling victim. And in Quaballa spirits only possessed inanimated things (as golems for ex).

So, my new question is: do you guys think Ill have much trouble slaping the old SR3 posession rules over it, just like I did for the other traditions ?

Also, possessed vessels do not receive immunity to normal weapons/hardening ? Am I reading it right ?

No, you won't have troubles if you bothered to change the powers of elementals and nature spirits already. There are a few rules to add, is all.

But, about the "messy" stuff, and even if I'm not an SR4 fan, defending 5th world inherited traditions limitations is somewhat, hem, limited. The ancient "magical" traditions should only serve as guidelines, since they are supposed to have been strongly hindered during the years in which magic disappeared from the world. Plus, you will see that Quaballa in SR3 don't impose the use of golem, only suggest it for building an ally, and only clay golem. All in all, it's only a matter of balance between variety and simplicity. SR3 opted for more variety, SR4 for more simplicity.

In Digital Grimoire, there is stuff about how mages are expected to respect the practice of their traditions regarding summoning and possession.
You can try slapping the old SR3 posession rules, but if I remember correctly there's at least a dozen of them (accross all sourcebooks), and they're all different.

And while some argue about the morality and legality of Possession, just remember in New Orleans it is considered acceptable as Possession IS nine-tenths of the Law after all.

My personal theory is that in the SR world, magic is not religion / belief systems becoming reality. Magic is something else entirely and those belief systems only help a person to interpret it. That way it is totally reasonable that shadowrun magic voodoo, while aligned with the belief system voodoo, works differently. Especially as people get more experienced with magic (and the level of magic rises), they realize that they can do stuff which the previously believed they could not.

That's quite a high figure…

I can imagine there might be some very weak differences between the different kinds of possession, with stuff as imps or shedims. Plus the techniques of channeling, etc. But if for now silva just wants to add Loa traditions, it's not much more work than reviving hermetics and shamanic differences.



That's obviously the choice that was made by SR4 writers. It could be argued that there were very strong indications for the opposite in SR3 and predecessors, and that it was just an excuse for UMT… I've always found very dubious that for nearly 20 years, hermetics and shamans could never find 10 minutes working together to check if an hermetic couldn't really summon an elemental in 3 seconds without binding him.

The Magic Level has risen in those 20 years so that the things thought impossible previously are now possible.

Hmmm, it seems the translation from SR3 would not so smooth in this case. There are some crucial differences:

1. in SR3 the practicioner summons the Loa/Mentor Spirit directly, while in SR5 it summons normal spirits (Man, Beast, Guardian, etc);
2. in SR3 the Loa can affect the physycal plane directly from the astral, while in SR5 a spirit can only affect the physical by posessing a vessel first.
3. in SR3 the vessel is suposed to have its physical atributes increased by the spirit force, while on SR5 the vessel gains force/2 plus force/2 armor too; *edit* and in SR4 the vessel also gains immunity to normal weapons, which can only be gained by great forms in SR3;
4. in SR3 the spirit do not have any innate skills or spells, making its use seem somewhat limited.

Im inclined to use SR3 rules as is, but allowing
A. spirits to possess inanimated vessels (so they can use their powers on the physical plane) and
B. confering the player a couple innate skills related to their powers (so Ogun would confer Unarmed Combat and Running skills, while Erzhulie would confer Negotiation and Con, Damballah would confer Sneaking and Perception, Oxossi would confer Tracking and Exotic Ranged Combat, etc)

The immunity to normal weapons power would stay reserved for greater forms (which is dependent on the Invocation metamagic).

Thoughts ?

Magic level rising, making elementals weaker than before . Awesome.



Nope, SR3 Loa have to possess someone (summoner or voodoo practitioner consenting) to affect the physical plane. At all.



They have access to the character's skills though.




I think you mistook possession for channeling. While being possessed, a character is not in control. The spirits act. As a GM I would probably let the player make the rolls and suggest the spirit action, but only if I agree with it. Technically, only the GM plays the spirits acts.

Good.


But it doesnt make much sense. From a conceptual POV a possessing spirit should retain is abilities, so a non-combatant character could get competent in combat if possessed by Ogun, for example. Because of this, I find it more coherent to have spirits retaining their own skills while possessing hosts. This could be made on the fly, though - players picks two skills, GM judges if its related to the spirit "portfolio", and voi-lá mon ami.


While the player is not in direct control, its still conscious as a passenger in his own body, and thus can issue orders and services to the spirit.

Nope, désolé, "The spirit is in control
of the body: possessed characters are unconscious and do not
recall what happened while they were possessed."



Ogoun gives you the fear power. More than enough. I'm not even talking about great forms loa, who gets immunity to normal weapons. All spirits are competent in combat via their reaction. Oh, and this stress is "grave", so that's voilà, mon cher.

Sorry, I do not see them as weaker by any stretch of the imagination.

Because they are still all wet and vulnerable to squeegee weapon foci?

Having the same stats as nature spirits? That's sad for them!

Freudqo, are you sure of that (hosts getting unconscious while in possession) ? Because I reread my Magic in the Shadows yesterday night and honestly didnt find it. Anyway, I think its one are where SR4/5 is clearly better, as it states you can be conscious during the process and issue instructios and services to the spirit. I may end up making a mesh of both versions myself.

Also, I, not seeing much advantage in optimg for a possession tradition here, whatever the rules version used. Materialization spirits seem much more useful and powerful. Whats the point ?


By the way, feel free to keep up the french expressions. Im a fan of the language and its being somewhat enlighting to me.

1. Yes I am: MitS p103. "While possessed by a loa spirit, the host’s physical
Attributes are increased by the spirit’s Force and their mental
Attributes are equal to the spirit’s Force. The spirit is in control
of the body: possessed characters are unconscious and do not
recall what happened while they were possessed. The loa spirit
can use any of its powers (see Loa Spirit Powers) through the
host body at will, in the same way as a materialized spirit."

2. Loa are the most liberal spirits to summon: no condition of domain, nor complicated hermetic procedure. You can have two with you fairly easily all the time. Great Loa HAVE immunity to normal weapons, making the character almost unkillable. Additionnally, you seem to forget the possibility voodoos have to create zombies.

3. You're welcome, à ton service !

Why? I have never seen them as weak in Play. They routinely kick up on characters.

I agree with Freudqo sentment that Elements should be physically stronger. If Nature Spirits are the "mages" of the spirit world - full of varied tricks and powers -, Elements are the "samurai"... except they have the same physical atributes as Nature Spirits.

But that is simply a matter of opinion, though.
No worries.

I think I said weaker. If not, it was my mistake.

As per real world practices, it's also wrong that magic works at all. Seems reasonable that there are some differences between "dry runs" and actual magic use

My houngan friends in the real world would say otherwise.

That's the thing, though. Whole point of Traditions is magic behaving the way the practicioners expect it to, so things that break the 'rules' of the respective tradition are wrong.

But from a game perspective you have to have a little bit of common ground to work from as well.

Otherwise you end up with a hodge podge system like early White Wolf where Vamp / Garou / Mage powers didn't really mesh that well if you wanted to play a cross campaign

Plus sometimes how they explain a tradition is not necessarily the 'norm' for all of that tradition.

Psionics is a good example. By game definition psionics deny the existence of most things magic, claiming they are just psychic phenomena and spirits are 'just' mental constructs.

But spend some time going through articles by some of the RL Psi guilds and they do not deny externally sourced magic, but rather focus primarily on internally sourced psi.
Likewise while they use mental constructs themselves, they still acknowledge the existence of higher planar entities like elementals and other forms of spirits that one can associate and barter with for knowledge, though self-enlightenment remains their primary goal.

But for game flavour then devs kept to a narrower definition to keep psionics seeming a more distinct branch, which to some degree it is as they are tapping forces more tied to here than pulling in power from beyond our realm.

That is the joy of research though. Taking a real world practice and making it work with the rules. The rules are broad enough that you should not have too many issues, and the RW Practices and beliefs make things a bit unique, while maintaining the simplicity of resolution.

Ok, Im trying to fit the good old voodoun Loa in the new system, and while some od them translate really well (guardian = Ogun the warrior, guidance/man = Erzulie the seductress) some dont. Because of that, I thought about customizing the spirits as below.

1. Ogun (warrior): combat skills + combat powers (energy aura, elemental attack, movement, etc)
2. Erzulie (deceiver): social skills + deceiving powers (confusion, influence, etc)
3. Damballa (diviner): mystic skills + divining powers (divination, search, mindlink, etc)
4. Legba (trickster/manipulator): all non-combat skills + manipulation powers (accident, binding, guard, magical guard, telekineses, etc)

I think this setup is simpler and more emblematic to each Loa, instead of trying to fit them into the default spirit types.

Thoughts ?

I disagree with this completely. This is a generic system lover argument (not saying your one of those). When sr1 had variable staging what firearm I chose had as much flavor as which rpg system I chose. Rolling massive d6s is a very different tactitile feeling than a single d20. Mechanics can change the flavor of a game drastically

No worries... And for the record, I do tend to prefer a simpler system most of the time (rarely does a more complicated system add anything but confusion and change simply for the sake of being "different"), as it leaves more room for the things that I like to pursue.

Also For the record: I ABSOLUTELY HATED Variable Damage staging in SR1... Absolutely abhorred it and was glad to see it go away. Was not flavorful, at all, to me; it was tedious and unfun.

You CAN differentiate via Fluff and still keep the mechanics the same.

While you can differentiate with fluff when rules back it up IMO it has more of a effect in how it feels. Not essential but it adds an assist. Whether the extra complexity is worth it is another issue though. Though when you have the same mechanics the differences have issues. Which stat is your drain stat is huge. Charisma is used throughout the magic chapter as a stat for tests logic is pretty much never used. With street grimoire or 4es version of it adding spirit types which tradition wins the spirit lottery and gets task, guardian etc spirits is big as well.

Basically I think if you are going to streamline it and make a unified system go all the way and for stat tests either pick a stat no tradition uses or say drain stat. Spirits should be defined by the 5 roles of combat, detection etc and each tradition gets one and have you flavor the how's. Half assing it just makes the differences stand out as balance issues not flavor issues. Also don't make rules that answer the debates in fluff like what spirits are. Street grimoire minds as well just said shamans are right hermetics are wrong and really douchetastic as well.

Much of the work I did for Traditions in 4th did the very thing you suggest above. While the various traditions could drain on either Charisma, Intuition or Logic, it was never crafted form a Character perspective. The same goes for Spirits. All the Traditions have benefits and drawbacks, and they ARE Fluff derived, but you cannot be a part of the Tradition if you do not follow the Tradition's fluff. Goes a long way to curbing excess, in my opinion. If you chose to ignore the Fluff, your magic quit working like you expected it to, or quit working altogether until you followed the Tradition. Entertainingly, there were exceedingly few issues with this. Tables vary, of course, so it might not work for everyone, but it worked for me (us).