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Beta
(I originally asked this on another forum, then realized after the fact that for this sort of lore, dumpshock tends to be a much better source.)

I’m pretty sure that this must have been covered in one of the books over the years, but I’d not seen it detailed back in 1st edition when I was a player, and it doesn’t seem to be in any of the 5th edition books that I’ve gotten my paws on so far (I haven’t picked up Run Faster yet). I hope someone can educate me, or at least point me at the right source book.

For the main meta-humans, at what age do they:
- hit physical maturity (i.e. have their full height, look more or less mature. For humans this is typically around 16-18) I've seen suggestion that for orcs this might be as early as 12, although if both that and their litter sizes is true, I'd hate to be the one feeding the lot of them -- one human boy in the early teen growth spurt was bad enough, orcs are achieving twice the weight in a fair bit less time!

- begin to show noticeable signs of aging aka hit some definition of middle-age (noticeable amounts of grey hair, more wrinkles around the eyes, maybe starting to need reading glasses. For humans this will be in their forties)

- begin to more rapidly decline/ be ‘old’ (in our society this is generally in the 70s, where people start losing muscle and bone mass fairly rapidly)

I started off wondering how the first UGE elves and dwarves were looking in 2075, now that they are in their sixties -- I was thinking of making an elf character who had been in prison for fifty years and was wondering if he'd look at all aged -- but it led me to the broader question.
Stahlseele
I don't think there ever were any hard numbers on this, only general life expectancy numbers.
Dorfs have an expected life time of 200+ years if i remember that correctly. Elves are still unknown.
Orks have a life expectancy of 40 and Trolls of 50 years. Humans are at about 80 i think.
And yes, orks and trolls both do physically mature much much faster than humans.
Yes, at 13, you can expect an ork "girl" to have a "litter" of 4 to 6, which is why they have such immense troubles.

UGE people are . . different somehow . . though that only was for people who changed from human to something else.
They basically kept the human numbers, so an UGE/Goblinized Ork will not have the 40 years of life expectancy, but that of a regular human.
Same for Trolls. Dorfs and Elves are only born, never changed, so they are always at the same numbers.
Beta
According to the timeline in the ShadowRun Wiki (which I admit may not be correct in all matters!), in 2011:

QUOTE
January 13: The first baby is born with the condition that will later be described as Unexplained Genetic Expression.

QUOTE
March 14: Newsweek magazine is the first media outlet that describes UGE babies as "elves" and "dwarfs."


and following the UGE link:
QUOTE
Unexplained Genetic Expression (UGE) was first recorded in 2011, when human mothers gave birth to children that looked like elves or dwarfs. Medical researchers designated these children UGE babies, and many parents feared these children


I think it was termed 'goblinization' for those who turned into orcs and trolls from humans (and that held off until 2021).

If I'm off base with the above, please do correct me smile.gif

lokii
If you have a look at the first table in this Shadowhelix article: http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Metamenschheit#.C3.9Cbersicht there is a column for the natural optimal life span ("Maximallebensspanne"). This is based on Earthdawn information, so take the numbers with a grain of salt. The footnote [E 1] gives an explanation. Tell me if you need a translation. Using the life span value a conceivable though not necessarily correct way of judging a particular metahuman age would be using humans as a model by "rescaling" to their life span:

So for example a sixty year old dwarf:

60/150 * 120 ~ 48 in human years

Obviously it doesn't work out for the lower end, let's take a fourty year old elf:

40/400 * 120 ~ 12 in human years

but of course the elf is already an adult.

You shouldn't forget though, that there are rejuvenation treatments available.
Stahlseele
If you want to read a bit more, you can also go to denver.
http://denver.wikidot.com/info:metahumanity
hermit
There's also the matter of First Generation metahumans.

First Gen/goblinized Orks and Trolls age differently from born orks and trolls - they grow significantly older, much more like humans.

First Gen elves are, according to SRR:HK, functionally immortal. Whether this extends only to Spikes or also to ordinary first generation elves is a bit unclear, but it's an interesting thought nonetheless. Personally I like this far better than an immortality gene passed on by aeons-long conspiracies of immortal elves.

Nothing about first generatiin dwarfs, but they should be longer-lived too.

And, since Earthdawn still is considered the accepted Fourth World, ED timetables for metahuman aging are a good guess.
EKBT81
IIRC according to the 2e Tir Tairngire sourcebook, elves mature at the same speed as humans until their mid-twenties, then their "aging curve" flattens off. So, environmental factors not withstanding, a sixty year old elf who led a generally healthy life could certainly look about mid/late-twentyish.
However I'd guess that unless in niche cases (like high-ranking white collar crooks), fifty years of prison aren't exactly a very healthy environment, so that character might show some more "wear"?

QUOTE (Betx @ Sep 8 2015, 11:25 PM) *
For the main meta-humans, at what age do they:
- hit physical maturity (i.e. have their full height, look more or less mature. For humans this is typically around 16-18) I've seen suggestion that for orcs this might be as early as 12, although if both that and their litter sizes is true, I'd hate to be the one feeding the lot of them -- one human boy in the early teen growth spurt was bad enough, orcs are achieving twice the weight in a fair bit less time!

Yeah, it seems that setting writers often didn't take the effects the stated aging and birth rates for orks should have into account (IIRC both the first Seattle Sourcebook and the SR3 New Seattle book gave the same percentage of orks amongst the population despite being set about a decade apart). That's what led my old table to houserule the numbers for ork aging up, presuming that the low life expectancy was more due to social factors, and their birth numbers down.
Sengir
I know there are others, but for starters, Seattle 2072, page 152:
QUOTE
Part of this is one of Kraal’s pet causes: changing educational and legal benchmarks for orks. Although he’s only 27 years old and holder of a Masters in Social Work, Janus Kraal is well past middle age by ork standards, given an average lifespan of 38.5 years for natural-born orks (which has increased only slightly in the past few decades). On the other hand, orks reach physical maturity around the age of 10–12 years, so an ork can be an “adult” for years before being legally old enough to be considered one. Kraal and others argue that human standards of development and maturity cannot be applied to orks or other metahumans, who should have their own standards. Thus far, the argument hasn’t met with a lot of success and has been shouted down as an example of “special rights” demanded by orks.


Of course, this also is yet another example of people not understanding how averages work: The total average life expectancy is mostly a measure of how many people die prematurely, especially at a very young age, not of old they can get. In the 19th century life expectancy was around ~45 years, that does not mean people dropped dead at 50 and were considered living miracles at 55, it means that many never made a two-digit age. To get the maximum lifespan, you'd have to look at other metrics, for example the average of the oldest X%.
So take those statements with a huge grain of salt wink.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 8 2015, 06:22 PM) *
And, since Earthdawn still is considered the accepted Fourth World, ED timetables for metahuman aging are a good guess.

Whenever someone says SR = ED: my thoughts.
lokii
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 11 2015, 12:42 PM) *
Whenever someone says SR = ED: my thoughts.
Well, then it's good thing nobody made that claim. indifferent.gif
Lionhearted
Just want to point out... No one in the 6th world has seen an elf or dwarf grow old or die from age. For all we know they might all be immortal buggers planning to take over the world, sure the greats might have an idea about life expectancy but do you really trust what a dragon say?
Sendaz
To be fair most shadowrunners rarely see anyone they know die of old age, usually because they or their buddy die of other causes first. nyahnyah.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 11 2015, 04:49 AM) *
Well, then it's good thing nobody made that claim. indifferent.gif


A lot of people make that Claim...
lokii
My reading of "SR = ED" is very literal.
Neraph
It was meant to be. A lot of people think that SR and ED are the same thing, just a full Age of Mundane apart. While that theory is entertaining, perhaps, and even may have some evidence for it, it's just like the theory that ET the Extra Terrestrial is from Star Wars or that Darth Vader and Indiana Jones were plotting together to kill Hitler - it's fanciful at best, deluded at worst.
KnightAries
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 11 2015, 07:48 AM) *
It was meant to be. A lot of people think that SR and ED are the same thing, just a full Age of Mundane apart. While that theory is entertaining, perhaps, and even may have some evidence for it, it's just like the theory that ET the Extra Terrestrial is from Star Wars or that Darth Vader and Indiana Jones were plotting together to kill Hitler - it's fanciful at best, deluded at worst.

Except if IRC while both ED and SR were under FASA they actually said that was the case (different systems) but the same world with 1 age in-between. Only after they moved to different companies did the fall apart.
Neraph
That's still nothing more (especially now - retcon is a force for good and for bad) than a person or group of people going "hey look at the complex inside joke we made." It's not as funny as they think it was.
lokii
Regardless of what one thinks of the crossover Earthdawn information should be fair game for interpreting the Shadowrun background.
Neraph
No more so than Dungeons and Dragons, the collected Middle Earth works, or any real-world mythos would.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 11 2015, 04:20 PM) *
Regardless of what one thinks of the crossover Earthdawn information should be fair game for interpreting the Shadowrun background.


Why?
KnightAries
QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 11 2015, 03:20 PM) *
Regardless of what one thinks of the crossover Earthdawn information should be fair game for interpreting the Shadowrun background.

As I've never owned or played ED..... I don't interpret it that way. nyahnyah.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 12 2015, 08:11 AM) *
No more so than Dungeons and Dragons, the collected Middle Earth works, or any real-world mythos would.

The Middle Earth setting was originally written by FASA as a prequel to SR? The more you know biggrin.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (Sengir @ Sep 12 2015, 02:37 PM) *
The Middle Earth setting was originally written by FASA as a prequel to SR? The more you know biggrin.gif

Tolkien's original draft did have the elves using Maxim machine guns alongside steampowered mecha-dwarves, but his editor shot it down. wink.gif

Though the rules for riding Rigged Ents was pretty cool and still better than 2 of the rigger editions.
Deckbeard
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 12 2015, 12:52 PM) *
Tolkien's original draft did have the elves using Maxim machine guns alongside steampowered mecha-dwarves, but his editor shot it down. wink.gif

Though the rules for riding Rigged Ents was pretty cool and still better than 2 of the rigger editions.

Yah but the rules for Eagles where so OP.
Sengir
QUOTE (Deckbeard @ Sep 12 2015, 09:55 PM) *
Yah but the rules for Eagles where so OP.

Also, the build-your-own-Ent rules from the third printing were totally bonkers biggrin.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (Sengir @ Sep 12 2015, 05:06 PM) *
Also, the build-your-own-Ent rules from the third printing were totally bonkers biggrin.gif

Aye... Look at all the 'Trunk' space those babies had for capacity. wink.gif
lokii
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 12 2015, 04:31 PM) *
QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 12 2015, 12:20 AM) *

Regardless of what one thinks of the crossover Earthdawn information should be fair game for interpreting the Shadowrun background.
Why?
Because of the connection? Earthdawn sources can give some small insight into what might have been or maybe still is considered for Shadowrun. Case in point the upper bound estimates for metahuman life expectancy in the Earthdawn corebook. At the very least as long as the crossover was valid that information is useful and coming from the wiki perspective how the Shadowrun background was understood in the past is also interesting to me. But even today if someone writing for Shadowrun cares about that aspect they are likely to look back to the actual Earthdawn source material.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 13 2015, 06:36 AM) *
Why?
Because of the connection? Earthdawn sources can give some small insight into what might have been or maybe still is considered for Shadowrun. Case in point the upper bound estimates for metahuman life expectancy in the Earthdawn corebook. At the very least as long as the crossover was valid that information is useful and coming from the wiki perspective how the Shadowrun background was understood in the past is also interesting to me. But even today if someone writing for Shadowrun cares about that aspect they are likely to look back to the actual Earthdawn source material.



I don't see it... If I wanted to write for Shadowrun, I would look back at Shadowrun. Earthdawn would never enter the mind, as Earthdawn is not in the least the same as Shadowrun. Different Strokes, I guess, but I ignore Earthdawn when it comes to Shadowrun. And am probably saner for it. smile.gif
KnightAries
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 13 2015, 12:32 PM) *
And am probably saner for it. smile.gif

You're a former Marine... Sanity isn't the question.
(I just had to get a poke in somewhere)
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 13 2015, 12:32 PM) *
If I wanted to write for Shadowrun, I would look back at Shadowrun. Earthdawn would never enter the mind, as Earthdawn is not in the least the same as Shadowrun. Different Strokes, I guess, but I ignore Earthdawn when it comes to Shadowrun.

I agree with you..



The only time I would figure ED came into the picture is in the very beginning when building the foundation. That's already there so it's not needed anymore. Besides IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong) I do believe SR was published before ED.
Now they are also ran by 2 different corps who both have taken the systems in different directions. If FASA was still around and working both then I very well may have agreed that I could use material from ED for SR but even then I seriously doubted it. (But there was always the chance of a potential antagonist).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KnightAries @ Sep 14 2015, 05:27 AM) *
You're a former Marine... Sanity isn't the question.
(I just had to get a poke in somewhere)


Well.... True. smile.gif
Minor correction, though... No such thing as a Former Marine. You either are [a Marine] or you are not.

QUOTE
I agree with you..

The only time I would figure ED came into the picture is in the very beginning when building the foundation. That's already there so it's not needed anymore. Besides IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong) I do believe SR was published before ED.
Now they are also ran by 2 different corps who both have taken the systems in different directions. If FASA was still around and working both then I very well may have agreed that I could use material from ED for SR but even then I seriously doubted it. (But there was always the chance of a potential antagonist).


Indeed... Shadowrun came before Earthdawn. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 14 2015, 09:14 AM) *
Well.... True. smile.gif
Minor correction, though... No such thing as a Former Marine. You either are [a Marine] or you are not.

Rah.Your time on watch may have ended, but that doesn't change your training or mindset.
KnightAries
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 14 2015, 06:44 AM) *
Rah.Your time on watch may have ended, but that doesn't change your training or mindset.

Once a Marine ALWAYS a Marine...
I may poke at my brothers in arms but all have earned there titles and that is always to be commended and cherished.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 13 2015, 10:32 PM) *
I don't see it... If I wanted to write for Shadowrun, I would look back at Shadowrun.

So that's what you would do if you hypothetically wrote for SR, but people who very much non-hypothetically wrote for Earthdawn and Shadowrun created one as a prequel to the other. The Earthdawn books written while both lines were with FASA are officially situated in the same universe and therefore contribute to the same canon -- meaning it can be retconned, contradicted, ignored, or depend on who is writing a given paragraph, just like all other canon from long ago. But until further notice, if one of the old ED books says all Orks dress left, they dress left.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Sep 14 2015, 03:02 PM) *
So that's what you would do if you hypothetically wrote for SR, but people who very much non-hypothetically wrote for Earthdawn and Shadowrun created one as a prequel to the other. The Earthdawn books written while both lines were with FASA are officially situated in the same universe and therefore contribute to the same canon -- meaning it can be retconned, contradicted, ignored, or depend on who is writing a given paragraph, just like all other canon from long ago. But until further notice, if one of the old ED books says all Orks dress left, they dress left.


And yet that is now over (and has been for many, many years), you cannot get it back... No longer do they share a background, nor have they for many Editions now. So... Earthdawn is irrelevant. smile.gif
lokii
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 15 2015, 05:03 AM) *
And yet that is now over (and has been for many, many years), you cannot get it back... No longer do they share a background, nor have they for many Editions now. So... Earthdawn is irrelevant. smile.gif
That will be true, once Shadowrun writers no longer look to Earthdawn material. But even then some stuff has already been introduced into Shadowrun other things might lurk somewhere in a development document. There has never been a concerted effort to "cleanse" the Shadowrun background by retconning all crossover connections.

Anyway we are going in circles. And by all means don't throw up on your paws, if Earthdawn is mentioned in passing.
Sendaz
*Seen on a wall in the Barrens*

God is Dead - Nietzsche

Nietzsche is Dead - God

Still Fragging Here! HA! -Harlequin
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 15 2015, 05:03 AM) *
No longer do they share a background, nor have they for many Editions now.

Which does not alter for the books already written at the point of divergence, unless you are claiming all existing material at that point got shoved into the memory hole and rewritten.
sk8bcn
I don't wanna discuss the revelancy of ED beeing past of Shadowrun. They belong to two different companies anyways today but it was clearly FASA's intention to make it that way (Windlings, Horrors, Harlequin, World without ends, Mountainshadow/Dunkelzahn... I could give an arm long of elements crossing both games).


The most problematic thing about ED beeing SR's past is that it doesn't make sense (where are dwarfs skeletons and ruins of ED civizations).

So this my version of this past:

As well as there's a metaplane with horrors, there's a mundane plane and there are mystic planes (the metaplanes). In between there is an oscillating "plane" which is the gaming universe. It's not magic that oscillates, it's the plane.

When it draws near to the mundane plane (our plane basically) it takes this world "imprint". It may leave a small trace to the mundane universe which explains legends, but not much more. When it moves toward the mystic planes, the fantastic parts start to appear.


This means that during 6th World, there's a mundane world (ours, actually) and the plane who's moving towards the mystic plane. -which means that our world coexist with SR's plane-).
When 7th worlds will start on the plane, everything from SR's background will start to crumble and get back to the mundane's world history. It fades up until it's nearly our world again....until it moves towards the mystic plane into the 8th world.

A few elements survive the downtimes. Like The Book of Harrows. Maybe a few artifacts.


This is why ED hasn't really remembered the 2nd age (a 6000 thousand year old cataclysm should have left scars) without the Books of Harrow. And why SR hasn't trace of ED. The plane is a moving plane between worlds.

Spirits does stay in the mystic planes.
Dragons do create cocoons and stay in stasis until they can awaken in the plane (that is, when it moves away from the mundane plane).
IE are the oddity that can cross the worlds and stay alive during the downtimes when the plane collide with the mundane plane.


This paradygm seems solid to me and is the one I use.
KnightAries
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Sep 15 2015, 02:11 AM) *
I don't wanna discuss the revelancy of ED beeing past of Shadowrun. They belong to two different companies anyways today but it was clearly FASA's intention to make it that way (Windlings, Horrors, Harlequin, World without ends, Mountainshadow/Dunkelzahn... I could give an arm long of elements crossing both games).


The most problematic thing about ED beeing SR's past is that it doesn't make sense (where are dwarfs skeletons and ruins of ED civizations).

So this my version of this past:

As well as there's a metaplane with horrors, there's a mundane plane and there are mystic planes (the metaplanes). In between there is an oscillating "plane" which is the gaming universe. It's not magic that oscillates, it's the plane.

When it draws near to the mundane plane (our plane basically) it takes this world "imprint". It may leave a small trace to the mundane universe which explains legends, but not much more. When it moves toward the mystic planes, the fantastic parts start to appear.


This means that during 6th World, there's a mundane world (ours, actually) and the plane who's moving towards the mystic plane. -which means that our world coexist with SR's plane-).
When 7th worlds will start on the plane, everything from SR's background will start to crumble and get back to the mundane's world history. It fades up until it's nearly our world again....until it moves towards the mystic plane into the 8th world.

A few elements survive the downtimes. Like The Book of Harrows. Maybe a few artifacts.


This is why ED hasn't really remembered the 2nd age (a 6000 thousand year old cataclysm should have left scars) without the Books of Harrow. And why SR hasn't trace of ED. The plane is a moving plane between worlds.

Spirits does stay in the mystic planes.
Dragons do create cocoons and stay in stasis until they can awaken in the plane (that is, when it moves away from the mundane plane).
IE are the oddity that can cross the worlds and stay alive during the downtimes when the plane collide with the mundane plane.


This paradygm seems solid to me and is the one I use.

And this makes a lot more sense than ED is SR past which would also be earths past.
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