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LurkerOutThere
I'm trying to give Fifth another look. I liked a lot of the concepts and changes but the poor editing and 'ware hate put me off it. Does anyone have any experience with just house ruling ware wireless bonuses to be default and getting rid of or severely nerfing bricking? I feel like you'd have to significantly reduce the costs of cyberdecks and peripherals to make up for it but I'm mostly ok witht hat.

Any other thoughts on Fifth edition now that it's been out in the wild for several years?
Zednark
I'd say wireless bonueses should be on a case by vase basis. For example, a +1 dicepool with a smartgun isn't unbalanced, but having more than +4 Reaction from Reaction Enhancers + Wired Reflexes is.
Stahlseele
The +4 Reaction is not unbalanced either.
The wireless bonus stuff itself is stupid.
Larsenex
What are you referring to? What is the ware hate you are mentioning?

I am new to 5th and I am restarting a game. What is wireless that you are talking about?
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 28 2016, 07:32 AM) *
The +4 Reaction is not unbalanced either.
The wireless bonus stuff itself is stupid.

^ +1
Medicineman
@Stahlseele & Spellbinder

Zednark wrote MORE than +4
becausefrom the mystical power of WiFi you can thus get a +6REA Bonus and this is the only case of braking the +4 Cap that I know of
and yes thats a stupid exception ( it only exist so that the Chars make tehmselves vulnerable to a Decker Attack from the WiFi Matrix )

QUOTE
What is the ware hate you are mentioning?

I guess it's not a 'Ware hate but a WiFi hate wink.gif
theres a lot of Dumb WiFi Bonuses /boni just to lure the Char into the WiFi Trap (look up teh WiFi Bonus for Shuriken, Silencer, Diving equipment and many more wink.gif )

HokaHey
Medicineman
Mantis
What we did with bricking was to have it force a shutdown on the gear in question for 2d6 minutes. That puts it out of action for the duration of most (all?) fights, which is pretty much the same mechanic as the default system but doesn't force a repair test of whatever. It means after the reboot you can still use your gear in the field.
For WiFi bonuses, we just ignored most of them and used the SR4 versions. As Medicineman points out, why the hell are there WiFi bonuses for things like the collapsible baton? Somehow it helps gravity extend the thing? Or on the Silencer? Whhhhy? How does your silencer magically know if someone heard the shot? How does that even work? Do they tweet it? "Hey just heard a silenced gun shot, must be runners in the..." erk, gasp (thud of body hitting the floor).
My favourite is stealth gear that, while it may help hide you physically, it loudly announces you are there on the matrix. Stealth foiled. Awesome. Yeah sign me right up.
Iduno
The only other problem I have heard of is missing gear. It sounds like it's being fixed by adding dozens of pdf-only splat books, but that takes more time to publish and the information is spread out over books you may not have, and can't use without a computer with a large enough screen to read the rules (can be a problem because hardware is all landscape, and software is all portrait).

Not much of a complaint, but something to be aware of as long as you did ask.
Ixal
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 28 2016, 03:19 PM) *
theres a lot of Dumb WiFi Bonuses /boni just to lure the Char into the WiFi Trap (look up teh WiFi Bonus for Shuriken, Silencer, Diving equipment and many more wink.gif )


Whats wrong with the Diving Gear?
Sendaz
Check out the rules on wifi signal underwater,
Page 231 looking at the table there, for every 1cm of sea water or 10cm of Fresh Water Noise is increased by 1.

Page 421: If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the itemís Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality.

So if you go a diving deep pretty much any wireless bonus is lost, which they do mention on diving gear, but consider even something like an internal airtank is supposed to lose it's bonus when underwater, even though does it really take the whole Matrix to figure out what your remaining air time is?
pg 455 Internal Air tank Wireless: Activating or de-activating the tank is a Free Action. Youíre always aware of the tankís exact air level and purity.

Honestly a lot of the wifi bonuses should have been PAN bonuses while other things like the medkit really do benefit from the wifi connection to the Matrix to get the most up to date data for patching you back together.
Ixal
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Apr 28 2016, 10:40 PM) *
Check out the rules on wifi signal underwater,
Page 231 looking at the table there, for every 1cm of sea water or 10cm of Fresh Water Noise is increased by 1.

Page 421: If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality.

So if you go a diving deep pretty much any wireless bonus is lost, which they do mention on diving gear, but consider even something like an internal airtank is supposed to lose it's bonus when underwater, even though does it really take the whole Matrix to figure out what your remaining air time is?
pg 455 Internal Air tank Wireless: Activating or de-activating the tank is a Free Action. You’re always aware of the tank’s exact air level and purity.

Honestly a lot of the wifi bonuses should have been PAN bonuses while other things like the medkit really do benefit from the wifi connection to the Matrix to get the most up to date data for patching you back together.


A internal air tank can be used in more situations than just under water. During gas attacks or during a fire with lots of smoke, high altitude, being trapped with your air running out, space, etc.
And how should the tank in your lung tell you how much air it has? Sure you can add some more wires from it to your brain, but that is covered by the router. But for the normal user the tank broadcasts its status wirelessly (I personally don't see "wireless" only as connection to the matrix but as any wireless signal going in and out which means it can be hacked). I don't see whats the problem with the tank having a wireless bonus is. Don't forget that not all cyberware are made with runners in mind. There is also a lot of civilian cyberware where comfort and ease of use is more important than security.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Ixal @ Apr 28 2016, 07:21 PM) *
A internal air tank can be used in more situations than just under water. During gas attacks or during a fire with lots of smoke, high altitude, being trapped with your air running out, space, etc.
And how should the tank in your lung tell you how much air it has? Sure you can add some more wires from it to your brain, but that is covered by the router. But for the normal user the tank broadcasts its status wirelessly (I personally don't see "wireless" only as connection to the matrix but as any wireless signal going in and out which means it can be hacked). I don't see whats the problem with the tank having a wireless bonus is. Don't forget that not all cyberware are made with runners in mind. There is also a lot of civilian cyberware where comfort and ease of use is more important than security.


@Ixal, are you telling me to gain the benefits of having my air tank tell me how much air is left I have to spend another half point of Essence? Really?!?

@Everyone: Honestly the Internal router should not be a piece of cyberware... it should be fragging STANDARD ISSUE when you get ANY cyber. I mean ANY AT ALL! No, the level of augmentation hate by the staff in 5th edition is horrific. They're pushing people more and more to MagicRun. Also the payouts for Shadowrun are disgustingly paltry verses the level of skill/augmentation/magic ability needed to perform some of the jobs these people would do.
Glyph
Wireless bonuses were horribly implemented, basically giving augmented characters a no-win choice between gimped functionality for their augmentations, or being vulnerable to an attack from an unseen vector that could potentially blind or paralyze them. I would reduce the effectiveness of bricking as proposed above. Also, I would make the wireless "bonuses" standard for most gear, only keeping it for things that would benefit from being plugged into an informational database, or for communication between devices not linked by DNI or skinlink (which I would bring back, although I might make it more expensive).

To give the deckers more to do, take the P-Tac from Run & Gun pgs. 104-105. Lower the Availability by 12 and the cost by two decimal places, to make it common (almost the norm) rather than a rarity. Level I is corporate security grunts and the like. Level II is fast-response teams, SWAT teams, or starting runners. Level III is optimized or experienced runners, as well as groups like Firewatch, Ghosts, etc. Deckers on both sides typically try to break into the other side's P-Tac network to disrupt communications, feed false targetting data, seize control of an enemy drone, etc.
Critias
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Apr 28 2016, 04:40 PM) *
Honestly a lot of the wifi bonuses should have been PAN bonuses while other things like the medkit really do benefit from the wifi connection to the Matrix to get the most up to date data for patching you back together.

And -- remember -- some of them, in fact, were written as being PAN bonuses, not full Matrix stuff, due to a miscommunication/change/whatever after the equipment chapter had been written. It's come up before, but there was something of a SNAFU there. Some of them make more sense as PAN bonuses because that was how they were designed to work, initially. We've discussed those design inconsistencies before.
ShadowDragon8685
I have a great idea for fixing SR5.
Play Shadowrun 4th Edition, before a pants-on-head retarded brainfucked moron took charge of the line and began vigorously skullfucking it trying to roll things back to the techno-derp of the '80s from the near-future transhumanim of SR4 in a vain idiotic attempt to recapture the grognard neckbeards who were still playing SR1-3. (It failed. They still play SR1-3. It's just that SR5 drove me to Eclipse Phase.)
Jaid
a select few wireless bonuses actually make sense though. iirc, the survival knife was mentioned on several occasions as being one such... basically it acts as a GPS. which is genuinely something that connecting to the matrix should probably allow. of course, it should be possible with *any* matrix-connected device, really, but you'd probably have to mod the other things. the survival knife comes with that capability built in (and again, actually makes sense, rather than just being really really odd).
LurkerOutThere
Part of the problem is wireless bonuses and bricking aside, a lot of things in 5 work appreciably better then they Friday in 4 or SR4A in my opinion.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 28 2016, 11:33 PM) *
a select few wireless bonuses actually make sense though. iirc, the survival knife was mentioned on several occasions as being one such... basically it acts as a GPS. which is genuinely something that connecting to the matrix should probably allow. of course, it should be possible with *any* matrix-connected device, really, but you'd probably have to mod the other things. the survival knife comes with that capability built in (and again, actually makes sense, rather than just being really really odd).


You know what the funny thing about that is, Jaid? The really, truly, amazingly funny thing about that is?
I'm 100% certain you could get a survival knife with a rudimentary GPS device in it in SR4's 2070, too. For that matter, your commlink would have had a GPS function in it as well.
And you know the astounding thing? It wouldn't work without wireless connectivity, either.


Okay, actually it probably would, because your example is kind of bad. GPS is a system which you can use through wholly-passive monitoring, because that's the nature of GPS signals. But yes, there are lots of things that would realistically not work without Matrix connectivity. For instance, literally anything involving communications. And when those things come up, the GM, being a Schmott Guy, would tell the players that if they want to use their device properly, they'll need to open up a connection to the Matrix. Not necessarily a wireless connection to the Matrix, because it's not like all those fiber-optics were torn out between 2064 and 2070.

But no reasonable GM would take it to the insane levels as found in my signature, let alone as found in the actual game.
Zednark
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 28 2016, 11:50 PM) *
Part of the problem is wireless bonuses and bricking aside, a lot of things in 5 work appreciably better then they Friday in 4 or SR4A in my opinion.

Barring absurd Wireless bonuses and a few particular things they obviously didn't playtest, 5e is pretty great. The change in augmentations being limited to +4 instead of +50% made playing against type a ton easier, limits are a great way to prevent a skilled character from killing a dragon with a holdout pistol, as well as making players care about stats they otherwise wouldn't, weapon variety is substantially better due to the addition of Accuracy and different damage values for the same class of weapon, and the art is much improved (though that matters little).

The thing is, most of SR's rules problems don't stem from poor design, they stem from incredibly complex rules. I made a rules mod for Cyberpunk that condenses hacking to a single page. If I can whip that up in an hour in my free time, Catalyst can make good quality hacking rules that fir in less than ten pages. SR would be a ton better if it was more rules light. I don't want to consult tables and check rules during play, and I shouldn't have to. DnD 5e is a great example of how to make a more rules heavy game into a more rules light one. Now, the game doesn't have to be as small as something like Ghost Echo (which fits on a double sided piece of paper) but making it newb friendly is important, especially in an age of kids who don't want to read rules.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 28 2016, 10:20 PM) *
And -- remember -- some of them, in fact, were written as being PAN bonuses, not full Matrix stuff, due to a miscommunication/change/whatever after the equipment chapter had been written. It's come up before, but there was something of a SNAFU there. Some of them make more sense as PAN bonuses because that was how they were designed to work, initially. We've discussed those design inconsistencies before.

Yeah, You're right.
isn't it a shame that there is no Errata for that ?
I know that most of the WIFi Bonuses/Boni are supposed to be PAN bonuses and I often tell that to players that ask me.
But unfortunetely the Mistake is still RAW. (One more Reason why im so dissatisfied with the Devs from CGL)
and since I often go to conventions to play SR (4A and 5) I have to stick to RAW because that is the default line to most of the Games.
(even one of my 5 Table Games at Home sticks to RAW but slowly our GM discovers ...how much is simply wrong with the Rules...)

QUOTE
and a few particular things they obviously didn't playtest,

I'd like to correct You on that.
SR5 has been playtested to a great extent. Some of the Playtesters wrote that on the Forums I visit (and I have no reason not to believe them)

He who dances a lot
Medicineman
LurkerOutThere
So the general consensus seems to be ware hate, wireless bonus, and bricking aside 5 is pretty good?
Stahlseele
No, even without that it is not better than SR4A and an obvious money grab so they do not have to fix SR4A anymore.
But those are the worst points. Then there is the stupidity of, for some reason, making skills now go up to level 9 as well and be hardcapped there.
You know, for Reasons. Not really good or even specific ones, just reasons.
And the limits mechanic, which they implemented in the next attempt to make you roll less dice.
Which it simply does not do. And the new way that augmented maximum attribute wors as well.

And those are just the CRUNCHY BITS!
LurkerOutThere
Anything else?

Because none of those changes really bothered me. I felt a 1: Barely competent to 6: World Class was a bit of a small scale.
ShadowDragon8685
Let's not even forget that the chowderheads in charge of the line said "Nanomachines? I don't like nanomachines in my Shadowrun. Get rid of them." To which the writers said "Uh, dude, continuity? We've had nanomachines as being corp cutting-edge since the end of 3rd, and they've been stuff high-end Runners and governments can use throughout fourth." And he said "Then they stop working." And lo, as if by the wave of the hand of a dismissive god, nanomachines all stopped working, and somehow, things built by nanomachines (not out of nanomachines, which would be fucking absurd,) just fucking melted.

So yeah, I jumped to Eclipse Phase and haven't looked back. (Haven't looked back to SR5, that is.)
Stahlseele
Yeah, that for example is another really big step of TECH BAD! MAGIC GOOD!
Also, of course, because they can't seem to do anything else than bodystealers . .
We now have an epidemic of nanoware bodystealers that should have, by now, infected all of the world.
Also, Ares goes down because their new rifle was not as good as the hype made it out to be.
That's TREES level stupid to me.
Medicineman
QUOTE
Then there is the stupidity of, for some reason, making skills now go up to level 9 as well and be hardcapped there.

12 !
the new Hardcap for Skills is 12 which is too high !
9 would've been perfect wink.gif but unfortunately it's 12
And its not a stupidity, Stahlseele, the core Idea of raising the Skills is totally ok, (6 as a limit from 4A was definitely to low !)
CGL just ...overdid it (9 would've been perfect ImO)

QUOTE
So the general consensus seems to be ware hate, wireless bonus, and bricking aside 5 is pretty good?

No.No.No.
(at least not from me)
it's foremost the WiFi Bonus Schmuh hate, than the Bricking hate and last the Cost-of-Ware hate (not the 'ware by itself) !
and I think some of the Users here see it the same way
One thing where I prefer SR5 instead of 4A is the fix Attribute bonus of max +4 !

(there are some more improvements in SR5 ,No doubt about it, but its not WiFi and not Bricking ...and certainly not the Vehicle Rules !)

HokaHey
Medicineman
Sengir
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 28 2016, 04:02 PM) *
I'm trying to give Fifth another look. I liked a lot of the concepts and changes but the poor editing and 'ware hate put me off it. Does anyone have any experience with just house ruling ware wireless bonuses to be default and getting rid of or severely nerfing bricking?

That's what every game I played so far did.

Also, what Glyph said: Make TacNets ubiquitous and borrow a page on what they do from EP instead of just handing out random +1 or +2, it gives hackers plenty of options.
LurkerOutThere
Perhaps I didn't phrase my question/scenario right.

I'm looking at running SR again. My house rules document for 4.x and I feel that 5 has better combat flow. Problem spots that look like they need attention are 1) ware hate (a broad category that covers both costs and the things like social limits and cyber ware becoming passť) 2) wireless bonuses 3) bricking. I'm treating them as three independent problems even though there is some overlap. What are some other areas that should concern me. For instance I remember mystic adepts being shockingly Op because their power points were stupid cheap. I remember the concealment power had the same copy pasta problem it had from fourth but worse because bonus dice are harder to come by. Anything I'm forgetting?
Medicineman
QUOTE
What are some other areas that should concern me.

everything concerning vehicles.
From Modifications to Speed to Vehicle Combat Rules

with a Drive-By-Dance
Medicineman
LurkerOutThere
MM: it's all bad or the stuff out of rigger 5? Could you go into more detail if you don't mind? I'm looking at how deep this all goes.

Riggers and vehicles have always been kind of meh just because it's hard to make them compelling gameplay but not completely unstoppable urban tanks. 4th had a serious problem with av weapons being really toothless.
Stahlseele
You need to differentiate between the Cool Vehicle Riggers and the boring effective Drone Riggers.
Medicineman
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 29 2016, 06:20 AM) *
MM: it's all bad or the stuff out of rigger 5? Could you go into more detail if you don't mind? I'm looking at how deep this all goes.

Riggers and vehicles have always been kind of meh just because it's hard to make them compelling gameplay but not completely unstoppable urban tanks. 4th had a serious problem with av weapons being really toothless.


I'm desperately waiting for the German Riggerbook (called Asphaltkrieger = Roadwarriors ).
I only have excerpts from the US Rigger book. So I can't be too exact ....
One of the main problems (ImO) is that there is no Speed Value in Mph or Km/h so you don't know how long a Car/Vehicle needs to go from A to B (and that is important for oh so many Szenarios/Runs/Adventures)
Than you have Vehicle mod Rules but different Drone Mod Rules (and I don't really know If you could use both set of Rules for both sets of Vehicles or just one for one set ? )

I like to modify Equipment (be it Weapons or Rides) It was already a Fail from CGL that they didn't include all Weaponmod s in Run & Gun
(important mods were in Hard Targets) and now two different Mod Rules....
THAN (oh my God sarcastic.gif ...) most of the Fluff concerning the Vehicles doesn't match with the Crunch of the same Vehicles.
I was said that there are some new interesting vehicles (an allterrain/water cycle....the one in the Bubble)
So I'm waiting for the German Book which is (for me as a german player) the better choice because it most often contains Errata
and some German only Add-ons from the Writer of Pegasus

HougH!
Medicineman
Sengir
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 29 2016, 11:55 AM) *
12 !
the new Hardcap for Skills is 12 which is too high !

...because?
hermit
QUOTE
Barring absurd Wireless bonuses and a few particular things they obviously didn't playtest, 5e is pretty great.

Playtesting was pretty thorough. What became of the feedback is another question.

QUOTE
So the general consensus seems to be ware hate, wireless bonus, and bricking aside 5 is pretty good?

Depends on how much you liked the changes SR4 brought. I for one think Riggers work better, save for the above mentioned problems (in SR3, there were options to harden your VCD against hostile takeofer attempts, in SR5, there aren't).

The 'ware hate isn't so much 'ware hate - though 'ware has it worst, because that n+m/2 is too much maths for the Line Dev, prices need to go up by two magnitudes, and the dedication of SR5's writers to force cyberware hacks down unwilling players' throats because it is cool and everyone who doesn't think so is a retard consipre for a truly epic feasibility downgrade. Pricing is murderous with augmentations anywhere, as it is with most archetype-relevant gear - decks cost more than most PCs will ever make, and just forget about Tacnet, they'll never give you their incredibly high prices' worth. Two decimals less on decks, Skillwires (and associated cyberware) and Tacnets, one decimal less for most cyberware, and we'd be tralking. But that's just the tip of the iceberg, the real problem.

It's player hate.

SR5 hates giving players viable options and choices, from a bizarre payout system to drastic limits on character generation in the core book to a generally antagonistic idea of GM/Player interaction (including 'friendly banter' in rules texts that directly insults the reader). Where SR4 gave you a lot, maybe too many options, SR5 delights in giving you no viable option at all. You want worthwhile cyberware? Have fun with being hacked without a shred of a chance at defense! (The hotfix daisy chaining ban errata means not even your team decker is any help - good job, CGL). Skillwires are so overpriced they stop being viable at all. There is no skinlink, there is no viable defense for cyber characters. Want to play an infected? Fuck you. Want to play something more exotic? Fuck you very much! Only mages and mystic adepts seem to have a lobby, though they don't thrive, they're just not gimped nearly as bad as other archetypes.

Add to that the blatant disregard towards editing and errors, including grave ones, like the totally garbled stat blocks in Rigger 5, and a particularly offensive smart-assyness in segmets of rules text, and the result is SR5E communicates, all over, that the makers don't give a damn about you, the player. More than anything else, that rubs me the wrong way about English SR5 (Pegasus' books are much better there, both because of editing and errata'ing they do during translation and because they filter the worst of the douchebroness that periodically makes SR5 books almost unreadable).

SR5 has a lot of ideas I like, both a return of concepts where FanPro dumped the baby with the bathwater (riggers, decks, magical traditions with actual flavor) and in terms of new rules - I'm partial to the new vehicle modding system, I like the idea of cumulative recoil in successive shooting actions a lot. The idea of Limits also has its merit, and even wireless boni are not, in principle, a bad thing. However, in every case, the execution is flawed. Many, even most problems with SR5 could be fixed relatively easily, but there seems no interest to from the publisher's side.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 29 2016, 08:52 AM) *
...because?

Because Chars are capped at 6 at the Start and it is terribly Karma intensive to raise Skills, and ineffective too.
Consider that an Adept could (just for example) Initiate for 13 Karma and get a full Powerpoint for 13 Karma...
or raise his Skill from 6 to 7 for 14 Karma to get one more Dice...
in my own experience (from my 2 SR5 Tables and from Conventions, speaking with other Players) hardly any Player raises his Skill at more than 7 because its not worth it...Maybe if the Char is played for a long time (100+ Karma)

otoh a GM has no problems to give his NPCs High Level Skills (10+) so most often Players see NSC with higher Skilllevels /Pools .Something that their chars can never achieve (or which is so costly in Karma ,especially when a Run gets so few Karma ...its 114 Karma to raise one single Skill from 6--->12 ! 114 Karma that means 20+ Runs...!
If You play twice a Month and some Runs need 2,maybe even 3 Sessions,
that means you,as a Player play your Char for a whole Year (maybe longer) and all you get is one single Skill at 12.... Meh sarcastic.gif )

a Skillmax at 9 would still mean that a starting Char is not at all at the Top notch Level (Otoh he is more than just an above average Professionell) but he can reach top Level Skill with some dedication and some Karma (48 )
AND the difference between high level NPCs and PCs is not THAT big.
a dedicated Player/Char can become equal to the high (Skill)level NPC without investing ...tons of Karma

And Hermit is right on most of his Points. (even though I don't like his hard tone, he is right in the core)

with a slimmer Dance
Medicineman
Ixal
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 29 2016, 12:47 AM) *
@Ixal, are you telling me to gain the benefits of having my air tank tell me how much air is left I have to spend another half point of Essence? Really?!?


No, you spend half a point of Essence for the air tank to directly beam that information into your head instead of wirelessly sending it to your comlink or cybereyes or you having to check a readout on the air intake on your chest.
hermit
QUOTE
No, you spend half a point of Essence for the air tank to directly beam that information into your head instead of wirelessly sending it to your comlink or cybereyes or you having to check a readout on the air intake on your chest.

According to the Core Rules, that is what DNI is for. wink.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 29 2016, 04:24 AM) *
Yeah, that for example is another really big step of TECH BAD! MAGIC GOOD!
Also, of course, because they can't seem to do anything else than bodystealers . .
We now have an epidemic of nanoware bodystealers that should have, by now, infected all of the world.
Also, Ares goes down because their new rifle was not as good as the hype made it out to be.
That's TREES level stupid to me.


eh, the ares thing is also bodystealers. didn't you hear? apparently 10% of ares' customer base are bugs, which is supposedly the *real* cause of the problem.

anyways, as far as major problem areas, technomancers. unless you hated them and wanted them to just go away forever, in which case 5th edition has you covered just fine.

but if you actually wanted technomancers to be playable outside of very specific builds (and even then, you're generally only doing what a decker could have done in the first place with fewer costs)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 29 2016, 02:04 AM) *
Anything else?

Because none of those changes really bothered me. I felt a 1: Barely competent to 6: World Class was a bit of a small scale.


Except that it was not a scale of One (1) to Six (6)... Giving 6 discrete levels of skill, plus up to an additional 3 via Adept

It was a Scale from Unaware through 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7... Nine (9) Discrete skill levels, plus up to an additional 3 more via Adept abilities.
MORE than enough to simulate what is required.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 29 2016, 05:52 AM) *
...because?


Because it was unnecessary?
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 29 2016, 02:37 PM) *
Except that it was not a scale of One (1) to Six (6)... Giving 6 discrete levels of skill, plus up to an additional 3 via Adept

It was a Scale from Unaware through 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7... Nine (9) Discrete skill levels, plus up to an additional 3 more via Adept abilities.
MORE than enough to simulate what is required.


but you have to admit that a lot of Char that came fresh out of generation where already at the top or merely one step away.
There was not really much Char development to the Top only in the width (I hope you say that in english smile.gif )
For me that was ok, but I heard (and read) some players ....complain that they're already the best of the best ( ohplease.gif )
and didn't know what to do with their Karma.... (a "problem" that I never had with my Chars.... biggrin.gif )

with a dance sans problems

Medicineman
Iduno
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 29 2016, 08:12 AM) *
SR5 has a lot of ideas I like, both a return of concepts where FanPro dumped the baby with the bathwater (riggers, decks, magical traditions with actual flavor) and in terms of new rules - I'm partial to the new vehicle modding system, I like the idea of cumulative recoil in successive shooting actions a lot. The idea of Limits also has its merit, and even wireless boni are not, in principle, a bad thing. However, in every case, the execution is flawed. Many, even most problems with SR5 could be fixed relatively easily, but there seems no interest to from the publisher's side.


I'm sure when it's time for a new edition, instead of saying "Good ideas, but bad implementation? Let's learn from this and fix it." it will be "People are unhappy? Scrap it all and start from scratch. Again."
Stahlseele
Wonder if, for SR6, they will, in an attempt to lower the ammount of dice being rolled, go to a natural maximum skill of 6 and only rolling skill dice and applicable dice pools instead of rolling skill+attribute+gear bonuses and instead use a kind of variable target number system where you would need to roll above a fluidly changing target number with a set and lower ammount of dice . .
Iduno
Nah. SR3 rules aren't complicated enough.

Yet.

Maybe if they run them through 3 different translators, make the rules contradictory, and refuse to publish errata?
LurkerOutThere
So does anyone have a house rules document drawn up that I could beg/borrow/steal from.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Iduno @ Apr 29 2016, 09:43 PM) *
Nah. SR3 rules aren't complicated enough.

Yet.

Maybe if they run them through 3 different translators, make the rules contradictory, and refuse to publish errata?

it's a sad state of affairs, when SR3 rules are seen as not complicated enough in comparison.
ShadowDragon8685
Meh, there's a reason I said "just go to Eclipse Phase."

The only thing you miss are elves and trolls - and only technically, because you can put elf-ears trivially easily on any biomorph, and the Bruiser is basically a troll that hasn't been uglified.
binarywraith
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 28 2016, 07:47 PM) *
@Everyone: Honestly the Internal router should not be a piece of cyberware... it should be fragging STANDARD ISSUE when you get ANY cyber. I mean ANY AT ALL! No, the level of augmentation hate by the staff in 5th edition is horrific. They're pushing people more and more to MagicRun. Also the payouts for Shadowrun are disgustingly paltry verses the level of skill/augmentation/magic ability needed to perform some of the jobs these people would do.


That's pretty much my standard rule. Internal routers are standard gear, wireless bonuses are thusly converted into PAN bonuses, and bricking becomes a non-issue because you can run everything silent or straight up Throwback and run a damn fiber optic cable, and chances are nobody will ever notice you have it.

Oh, also Lurker? Avoid the fluff books. As if they had VITAS. The level of proofing and "logic" in them has been absurdly bad. To the point of hoping the line dev wore his brown pants when he edited, because he was clearly lounging about in drek.

Everything from submarine escapes from a landlocked city in the mountains 2640m above sea level; to a AAA starting to collapse over a niche product that's illegal in most of their markets being shit and retroactively being full of bugs; to nanomachines that rewrite people's brains because we needed a fourth (fifth?) possession enemy as the major plotline.
hermit
QUOTE
Everything from submarine escapes from a landlocked city in the mountains 2640m above sea level

... via the world's second highest waterfall and a river otherwise mostly made of rapids. That's a splatbook though, not a fluffbook.

QUOTE
a AAA starting to collapse over a niche product that's illegal in most of their markets being shit and retroactively being full of bugs

Yes, that is some epic shit. I really don't know what got into the writers here. I can only assume this is some gun nerd inside joke thing. Then again, has anyone stomped their phone's batteries because the G36 is a crappy gun?

QUOTE
because we needed a fourth (fifth?) possession enemy as the major plotline.

It started out as a cover-up of bad writing though.
binarywraith
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 30 2016, 04:14 AM) *
Yes, that is some epic shit. I really don't know what got into the writers here. I can only assume this is some gun nerd inside joke thing. Then again, has anyone stomped their phone's batteries because the G36 is a crappy gun?


Better question, does Joe Average Consumer even know what companies are under the Ares umbrella? The major A-AA subsidiaries sure, but all the nationals and barely multinational brands?
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