I’m curious if anyone else has come across an answer for this anywhere in the rulebooks, as I haven’t. It’s noted that magical criminals had better be good at either leaving no astral signatures behind or erasing them before leaving the scene of the crime, but I don’t see how it matters all that much, legally speaking.

This is because, in Shadowrun, magic doesn’t play well with technology…so how exactly is anyone storing a record of the astral signatures of a magical criminal? Sure, an Awakened cop can astrally assense the scene and view the signature, but what’s he going to do with it then? It’s not a fingerprint. It can’t be lifted from the scene, scanned into a computer and checked against a database. If the same criminal commits a crime someone else, what’s the local Awakened cop going to do – call all the other Awakened cops he knows and ask if they remember the magical signature he’s found? And that’s assuming that he can even describe it well enough.

“Well, you see, someone robbed a bank with magic today, and threw around all kinds of spells. The signature looked like, um, well, it was all swirly, with lots of different colors. Does that sound like any Awakened criminals you’ve come across?” If it can’t be objectively recorded and digitized, and thus used for later comparison, then what practical use is it?

Well the first thing to comes to mind is the critter power Search.

If the MageCop can sift through the scene and determine the Signature, they could sic a spirit on it as the Search power allows them to search for anything for which their summoner can provide them a mental image, which I imagine could also include their visualization of the signature.
Even if it can't find the actual perp, it may lead to other clues/bits that could be used for a more serious ritual search.

Beyond that is does seem kind of vague. At some tables, they have had Lonestar employ the use of special crystals that a magecop can 'imprint' with the signature they have been exposed to.

Other mages can then view the signature for referencing, but it can not be copied electronically, so short of imprinting several crystals with that particular signature, usually only one or two will exist for the cops to use in their ongoing investigation.

Otherwise if a particular MO crops up in another city, the Magecop may find himself booked on a flight out to the distant crimescene to see if the sigs match up.

Well they could be using Quicksilver Mana Sensitive Film Cameras (Arsenal, pg 67) which can be used to capture astral signatures in addition to other astral things and saving those to a database for comparison. So clean up your mess mages or the cops will take a photo and use it against you.

Ok, I've gone and checked out this entry in Arsenal. If I'm reading it right, the resulting photo can be digitized. I think that does it - the cops can create a searchable database of magical signatures (if they can get a Quicksilver MSF Camera to the scene of the crime before the astral signatures fade).

Also you can trace a magician from his spell signatures (although harder as they fade). So the police (corp sec, wiz gang -- whoever) can potentially follow to wherever it is you go after a run, then send disgusting amount of forces to ruin your day. Sure, when it comes to police, in court it would come down to the word of a highly respected professional forensic mage against that of a rogue, SIN-less, criminal mage, and I'm sure the judge (or possible jury) would completely keep an open mind about the chance that the professional was wrong

(This is why you want to get behind a good mana barrier, pronto, if you don't have the opportunity to erase your spell signatures. Threshold for tracing goes up by the mana barrier rating). Nice to have a second residence with a good lodge, or have a room arranged in the sort of very exclusive hotel that offers strong wards around its rooms.

Actually, I was more concerned with longer-term forensics. You might be able to hide out until, as you've suggested, the signatures fade away. But, if they can record the signature for later reference (and it appears they can), then they can also conclusively tie you to previous crimes as well, if you're caught at a later date.

I tend to get around this via GM bribery - I never start the game as a mage without already being an Initiate with both Flexible Signature and Masking. Honestly, the career of any Shadowrunner mage who doesn't have both of these metamagics to start with would be over before it began.

Prior to fingerprints and cameras and all the tech in the world, there was still law enforcement. Mage "eye-witnesses" could be called to court to point out criminals, "Yes your honor- that signature matches the signature of the criminal in question".

The more I think about law enforcement in Shadowrun, the less likely it is that ANY crimes would be possible. How to balance the ubiquitous, cheap recording and constant spirits patrolling? Greed, of course!

Corporations don't like to share information. They hate each other, and want to gain any advantage. They COULD share law enforcement resources; they choose not to. LS (Or KE or anyone who is running a city's law enforcement) has a contract with the city; and some corporations. They're under no obligation to share criminal records with the various corps. In fact, they get paid for enforcing crime - it's in their best interest that more criminals stay on the street! So they can choose to silo information from various corporate contracts so that the left hand doesn't help the right. There's a minimal level of safety, sure, so if you've gone on a huge cop killing spree they'll likely lift more than a finger. But to quote the Fifth Element, "if they don't chase you after a mile, they don't chase you." All of this would go the same for corporate mages. Why would they share the astral signatures of criminals on file with other corps, or law enforcement? Getting robbed is embarrassing; they don't want anyone to know a mage got the best of them.

-DrZ

Not to mention this sort of thing provides some nice leverage for the corp in question to get said mage to do some work for them and not try to screw them over, or at least not so long as the corp has the signature on file.

I suspect it ends up being something like thermal vision. Which while completely inaccurate to how said perception feels to the entities that have it, makes sense to the rest of us.

The Anonymous Rex novels also liked to describe the dinosaur characters' sense of smell and each others' scents (which they could immediately scent and identify when they got within about 50 meters of each other) as things like "crabs baking on a hot beach" and such, which evokes a strong mental image for us normals, even though it's totally disconnected from what's actually going on.

Mage: "Yeah, that's exactly what it looks like, only think of these orange streaks as being the smell of blueberry pie and those polkadots as being your best friend sleeping with your wife."

I don't see why a cop saying to a court "I saw him shoot at the victim" would be less receivable than "I identified his astral imprint". It's like an expert beeing invited to testify that the accused one has a mental disorder.

By the way, we could even imagine that a COP-mage could be invited to assense an astral imprint then identify the suspect just like an eye witness would do.

It was a huge deal in 3e, because you could astral quest for a ritual link on someone if you knew their signature, and ritual links ruin a mage's day.

Yes, but that's a lot less likely to hold up in court than more objective proof. If all a cop can do is go in front of a jury and say "Yeah, that's the guy. How do I know? From his astral signature; it matches what I saw at the scene of the crime. Can I show that to you? Uh, no. Look, it's a magic thing, you'll just have to take my word for it."

On the other hand, if the cop can demonstrate original alchemical photos of the astral signature found at the crime scene, and photos of the defendant's astral signature (and show a match), then I can only imagine that would count as much better evidence in a court of law. The police wouldn't bother to have a CSI division if all they had to do was show up in court with no evidence and say "Yeah, that's the guy. Just take my word for it."

Yes I guess it holds less than an actual proof. I see it a testimony, not more. Like if a cop would say to the court that he saw someone run away and identify him as the subject.

It's a piece of the dossier but not enough to a "guilty" verdict.

Astral forensics would likely be Mystic Adepts with "Three-Dimensional Memory" (Street Magic p180), "Eidetic Sense Memory" (Street Magic p176) and MindLink (SR4a p207). They can perfectly capture and indefinitely retain the crime scene, the whole sensation of the astral signature, and relay it faithfully to others in the courtroom. Or to other astral forensic mystic adepts who can Eidetic Sense Memorise it themselves. MindNet (Street Magic p168) so everybody present knows everyone has the same data.


Of course, every Astral Forensic expert can be bribed and blackmailed to the same extent a judge can; everybody has their price. But my point is that scanning megapulses into Optical Memory Chips is not the only reliable record.

So the conversation might proceed more along the lines of: (Replace kung fu with whatever mojo went down in that alleyway on the fateful night in question.)

@Bodak:

Um, I think you missed all the rest of posts here. We already established that they can be both photographed and digitized, so there's no problem with presenting them as objective evidence in court.

JanessaVR@

I read them all.

Basically, you need the original person that assensed the signature.

Considering, that mages are not exactly common, it is not super unlikely, though, that the same LoneStar (or whatever security there is) mage will come across the same signature.

Also, when there is a crime scene with heavy use of magic, it is entirely possible that every available mage is called there for assensing purposes, to have the information more widely available.

But yeah, you cannot really do much else with those.

Bye
Thanee

Don't you think a MysAdept who has had the perfect memory delivered to them would be able to remember and assense it themselves? And pass it on to others?

oooooh.... Magical Chinese Whispers

But yeah, if the MysAds have learnt the proper techniques like those Bodak pointed out above they should be able to receive and retain a signature I would imagine.

But for court cases, I imagine they would have to call in the original mage as he was the actual 'first witness' to the crime scene.

But for searching for the perp or narrowing down the list of suspects? Totally can see using shared images to help run them to ground.

Which is why, like I said in the beginning, they would use Quicksilver Mana Sensitive Film Cameras (Arsenal, pg 67). No need for adepts with super specific power sets or having magicians pass it along one to the other. Snap, snap, upload and done.

Exactly. This is a simple, direct method of storing evidence in an objective manor that can both be stored and indexed for later easy retrieval, and presented in court in a straightforward fashion, without actually insisting that members of the jury subject themselves to a (probably unwanted) telepathic mind link, just to be able to review evidence.

As with all games set after the formalization of (reliable) forensic science, the players' ability to get away with shit is not usually based on their ability to not leave evidence (if they could reliably plan detailed heists that ended in success with no evidence, they'd either be working for or against actual law enforcement,) it's in whether they've set the bar high enough that it's just not worth pursuing them.

In Shadowrun, the default for that bar is very, very high, since all they have to do is make their escape through (someone else's) extraterritorial jurisdiction and the folks chasing them can't chase them any further without risking a shooting war. Generally speaking, forensically tracking down the heist crew that pulled off a successful Shadowrun is in no way profitable for any of the parties who might potentially be interested in so doing, as they stand a next-to-nil chance of recovering any value (either from seizure of the Runners' assets, or recovery of whatever was taken,) and it will involve a very expensive investigation, including exceedingly expensive negotiations with other jurisdictions to get ahold of any evidence they may have.

Which is possible, I will point out. Saeder-Krupp and Ares may be very much at odds with one another, but they are fundamentally businesses. If S-K has evidence Ares wants badly enough, Ares will meet their asking price, and S-K will sell it to them. This is also how you can find things like Knight Errant Firewatch teams contracted to run security for an AZT research lab, as in Dragonfall. The companies may not like one another at all, but business is business, and if it's cheaper to hire one of their hated competitors as a contractor than to do it themselves, there's a very good chance they will do exactly that.

So, if someone wants you badly enough, they will find you. Astral cameras are probably on standby with rapid response forensic investigation teams that can be hired in like, five minutes' time to be rapidly flown out to your crime scene and snap pictures of the astral signatures the spellslingers were throwing around. Such services are not cheap, though, so the question is, "is it worth it." The answer is usually "no," just like the answer to the question of "is it worth paying 100,000 to Saeder-Krupp to get their security footage and whatever their security guys found that those jackasses who robbed us may have dropped on their way across the S-K compound" is usually "no."

Of course, things you do can change these variables. If you perform a silent in-and-out with evidence that the company's team can clean up before the morning coffee crowd arrives, they'll probably decide to just save face and money and tell the workers nothing, and if any prototypes or something were stolen, blame it on a janitorial contractor and sweep everything under the rug. If you slaughtered your way across a compound and chose to install new doorways in every wall with detcord rather than use the normal doors, there's a much higher chance they will, if not actively come looking for you, keep an ear out and if you get sloppy, they'll jump if they get a chance. If you kidnapped the CEO's daughter and held her for ransom, they're coming for you and money is not even on their list of concerns.

If you want to enjoy a long, prosperous career as a Shadowrunner, then, one without kill teams breaking into your safehouse while you're settling down to masturbate to some trid-porn, follow these rules:

1: Try to leave as little evidence as possible, duh. The more low-hanging fruit they have to work with, the lower the bar to coming after you. If you fuck-up royal and leave directions to your safehouse in their facillity, they're going to show up on general principles.
2: Avoid killing if at all possible. Even corps you generally consider soulless get angry if you slaughter their people, if for no other reason than they don't like paying death benefits. Also, you never know which of those inept security guards is going to be the nepotistically-employed nephew of some VIP who loves his fuck-up nephew and will consider it personal that you geeked his sister's boy, or which cubicle drone might be the wageslave cousin of some Runner who's going to come after you looking for revenge.
2a: Obviously, if they're slinging lead at you, you gotta do what you gotta do, and most people consider armed security to be fair game. Cubicle drones, not so much.
3: Theft is okay, even opportunistic theft, but if you clean the place out, somebody is going to have to answer for it. Assuming that person still has a job (or at least a pulse,) when the incident review is over, you've given them a personal reason to come after you. They may or may not be capable of executing on this depending on how much reason you've given the company to back them on this and/or how many personal resources they have to bring to bear, but generally speaking, the less you steal, the more it's written off as "just business," the less the personal butthurt and vendettas.
3a ooc: This is also on the GM. If your Johnsons are giving the players so little money for Shadowruning that they could literally make better bank by walking out of the meet, stealing the Johnson's ride or a vehicle just like it, and selling it to a chop shop, you're incentivizing your players to steal everything that isn't nailed down, and to bring crowbars, claw hammers and angle grinders so that they may adjust the definition of "nailed down." This is also a major cause of players who take Tamanous contacts and make a habit of "recycling" corpses. If you want your players to put more effort into doing the job and less into stealing everything they can pry up, actually pay them money worth a professional criminal's time.l
4: Don't make things personal. Not just avoiding killing if at all possible, but don't taunt the corpsec, or leave calling cards like a moron, or cause massively unnecessary damage, and for the love of Zog, if you aren't being paid to sabotage the place, don't sabotage the place! The less damage you cause, the less incentive they have for coming after you.
4a: It's not just the company security you want to avoid making things personal with: if at all possible, try to refrain from screwing over individuals, including looting their desks and the like. Those poor fuckers work for a living, maybe not the same way you do, but if you steal some wageslave's credstick hoard that has the money he was saving to buy his kid a sweet sixteen gently used car, he's gonna be vengeful, and you never know when the stupidest things will come back to haunt you. You'd be pissed if some burglar hit your doss while you were out and stole your shit, and you'd go after them; don't make the mistake of assuming random joes can't or won't go after you.

That entirely depends on the juristiction in question. What may not be permissible in the UCAS may well be before a Sioux, Pueblo or Aztechnology court.


Well, there is mana-sensitive quicksilver film - basically a (crappy) photograph of the Astral. Not that great, sure, but neither were the first gene-tests, nor were blood types anywhere near proof a given person left a blood trace, and yet they were permissible in court. And in US courts, even a technology like polygraphy, that has been proven entirely unable to produce reliable results, is still considered valid evidence. The bar isn't set all that high.


Well, in case of Paranormal Investigators, the mage could just send a watcher or small spirit to the other cop and deliver the signature by spirit telepathy. Since no description is needed, that should work. Also, he could just mail dauggerography copies.


That would count the same as any expert or witness testimony. There is, to the average juror, little difference between science and magic, after all. And the mage cop carries the same weight as a regular (ork) cop in face of the jury (which is likely all-white and all-mundane-human).

Of course, as I said, this would depend on the juristiction. Some courts may accept magic CSI accounts at face value, or even the account of any magical practitioner (like a tribal shaman, or a wage mage). Others may set the bar higher, dismiss the photographs for lack of clarity and fuzziness, or just dismiss magic as a tool of the courts altogether, because they're conservative (like Switzerland) or for religious reasons (like Arabia, Westphalia, or the CAS). Satan's work can't possibly be worthy testimony, can it?


Please keep in mind that in juristictions that aren't the UCAS, CAS, or California, juries aren't usually used. And a Sioux court shaman might well accept that, being Awakened themselves.

One additional thing to keep in mind for shadowrunners is that if a corporation successfully catches them, they are likelier to disappear (or, if they are savvy and professional enough, cut a deal), rather than see the inside of a courtroom.

For runners who do see the inside of a courtroom, astral evidence alone probably won't be enough to convict them, assuming they have an alibi and/or a decent lawyer. Remember, it is possible to forge someone else's astral signature.

It's not like cutting a deal is unheared of in many state judiciaries either. Or, for that matter, disappearing into a black site forever without any kind of fair trial.

That would also work, of course.

It's kinda hard, though. You need 5 hits to take the "photo" and also 5 hits for anyone (that is not you) to assense the signature in it. Not for the average occult cop.

Bye
Thanee

Dunno, how much better proof that is, considering a mundane won't see anything useful in there.

You need the Assensing skill (and therefore Astral Perception) in order to "read" the picture. So you are kinda back at the beginning... just with pretty colors.

In the end, it is still the word of the expert you have to rely on, as it is not something the average person can comprehend.

Bye
Thanee

You mean like in DNA flow patterns and blood spatter? That's par for the course ever since the first true crime scene investigation happened.

True, but again, it’s still objective evidence, and not just taking possibly only one police officer’s word on it.

Taking this kind of “magical fingerprint” from the crime scene provides evidence that can be demanded for examination by defense counsel, and possibly discredited as being valid evidence. They can get their own Awakened experts to invalidate the police findings if the magical signature doesn’t match the defendant’s.

And like I said before, if all a Lone Star detective has to do is show up in court and say “That’s the guy, take my word for it,” then there’s no reason for them to have a CSI division. Heck, there’s no reason for them to have any sort of investigative divisions at all if they don’t require any sort of objective evidence to reliably secure convictions of any suspects they arrest.

They can make their bottom line much more profitable and their daily operations much simpler if their corporate structure consists of just an administration division, patrol cops, and a jail for suspects awaiting trial. No need to bother spending time and money investigating anything, just instruct your patrol cops to arrest someone near the scene of the crime who looks like they could be guilty, drag them into court and secure a guaranteed conviction just on your word that they’re guilty.

This would be a huge cost savings for Lone Star and make their lives so much easier, so why aren’t they doing it? Probably because they actually do have to gather evidence from the scene of the crime and can’t count on securing convictions in every case with no objective evidence at all.

Now, I know some people will say “Lone Star’s corrupt as hell, they do this kind of thing all the time!”, but if they’re really so corrupt (and yet somehow so well respected in courts of law) that they don’t even need to bother to investigate crimes, then I want to start seeing some explicit mention that they don’t even have any investigative divisions in the canon rulebooks, otherwise I’m going to assume that Lone Star, Knight Errant, etc. have to at least pretend to act like legitimate police forces.

Actually, Lone Star trains their recruits insanely well for investigations, compared to today's county, sherriff and municipal polices, according to the Lone Star book. Every last beat cop gets some investigative basics in Lone Star Academy, which is a full year long. It would be bizarre if they'd waste that effort by just foregoing investigations altogether for Guantanamo type judiciary procedure.

Thank you, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make here. I think the Lone Star book's available at DriveThruRPG, I should go pick it up and review it (it's been at least a decade since I looked at it last, IIRC).

I'm just reading it too, and actually ... it makes a compelling case why most of the post-US American states in Shadowrun opted for private police corporations. It would indeed be a massive improvement (just as DocWagon and its very reasonable prices for medical procedures would be).

Yeah, kinda. But I still think it's a bit more "out there", considering that the average Joe cannot simply learn the skills to understand it.

Bye
Thanee

Well, the word of a police officer is worth quite a lot these days.



Certainly. But what happens then, if the defense just brings in a guy who assenses the thing and says "nope, nothing to see there" (even, if he is lying).

And how often does it actually happen, that the camera will have that fingerprint in a "readable" form (again, 5 hits necessary to achieve that)?
Or that someone will manage to actually see the signature on there (once more, 5 hits required, unless you already know it, in which case it is 4)?

That stuff is extremely unreliable and therefore pretty much useless.

If that is what's required to find someone guilty of a magical crime... good news for the criminal mages!



That's how it works today (unless there is actual, hard proof). Doesn't even have to be a cop, a random, unrelated person (eye witness) is good, too.

Of course, actual proof is preferable, but it is not always there.



Not saying anything like that. In fact, I would give Lone Star, etc. the credit that they do try as much as they can to do their work in a legitimate way (because, anything else would cast a pretty bad light on them, and unlike today, they can "simply" be replaced). So, the "management" has quite an interest in keeping it that way, too.

Bye
Thanee

Well, you can't just "learn" genetics. For one, we're talking (in a US context) about student loans between 50 and 100 grand. Sure, the barrier towards awakening is even higher (though you could just make a trip to India during Holi (I think it was Holi) and hope to hit the Ganga during one of their SURGE-inciting waves - cheaper but less promising than studying genetics, even if you need five trips or ten). However, both are out of reach for the ordinary citizen of today's US, let alone the even more impoverished citizens of the UCAS, CAS or California.


True, especially after Seattle. They CAN be fired even from long-term contracts. Besides, as I said, they run a tight ship and have very competent officers, down to the beat cops.