It was shortly after his takeover of Denver, he more or less magically grabbed a group of Azzie representatives (IIRC), and then not-quite-teleported them kilometers away in an instant. I think it was during a press conference or something.
Does anyone know what book that was in? I've checked like 2 dozen SR3 and SR4 books and can't remember where I read that. Argh...
Anyhow, thanks much if anyone remembers what book this was in.
Full Version: Quick Question About Ghostwalker
Actually it was not GW who did the deed so much as Peri,
StormFront Pg 87-88
Given that Peri was charged with illegal summoning (along with treason) this may be a case of he used a spirit to whisk them away, maybe in a Movement/Guard style but on a big ass scale, though some threads have argued other effects in play.
StormFront Pg 87-88
QUOTE
> Yes and no; he’s been arrested for summoning a spirit, which is now legally the same thing. Upon
his re-emergence back in March, Ghostwalker outlawed the spontaneous summoning, binding, and
banishing of spirits in Denver, punishable by expulsion or impris- onment. Needless to say, this
was a big deal to all of the region’s mages. It’s frankly an insane law, and this is the most
dramatic and public example I’ve seen of it actually being enforced.
> Ethernaut
> It was She of the City, not Ghostwalker, with whom this decree originated. I shall see what the
spirits of Denver think of this law’s “sanity,” and the “sanity” of the alternative, now that I
have arrived in Denver.
> Axis Mundi
> What about the treason part? That seems rather old school. Must be referring to that Aztechnology
thing, right?
> Kane
> Aztechnology thing?
> Pistons
> When the Second Treaty of Denver was supposed to be renewed, Ghostwalker made his sudden
reappearance and was eyeing the Aztechnology delegation like they were standing on a buffet table.
Perianwyr put himself between Ghostwalker and the AZT executives, and then transported them out of
Denver and back to Las Cruces. [Link]
> Kay St. Irregular
> I’d add “via a magical effect not yet understood by the thaumaturgical community at large” to
that description.
> Winterhawk
> If this is retaliation for that, it’s certainly taken Ghostwalker a while to get around to it.
Then again, these are dragons we’re talking about. They play the long game.
> Frosty
Perianwyr was taken in to the ZDF headquarters in the Hub,
sedated, in chains, and contained in a dragon-sized manacoffin
shortly before noon this morning. He was actually taken into
custody in an abandoned park in the Aurora Warrens just after
midnight; Zone Defense Force special forces and mages sprung
an ambush on him, throwing a net over the poor dragon and
overwhelming him with a barrage of stun spells, large animal
tranquilizers, and taser rounds.
> I’ve seen some of the pirate news footage, and they had scrambled
serious attack helicopters as well. By staying on the ground
and not taking to the air, I think Perianwyr made the choice to go
in alive rather than risk getting geeked by air-to-air missiles and
autocannon fire. Trusting of him, but tangling with a squad of
choppers isn’t a great alternative.
> Rigger X
> I had been wondering what it takes to arrest a dragon. Honestly,
I’m a bit underwhelmed.
> Stone
> Keep in mind that besides being much younger than Ghostwalker,
by all accounts, Perianwyr hasn’t worked the shadows as an
assassin in decades. I can forgive him for getting a bit soft. Poor
guy just loves music.
> Kat o’ Nine Tales
> What the hell was Perry doing in the Aurora Warrens at that time
of night? I thought he’d been very careful to watch his step around
the Front Range Free Zone after pissing off Ghostwalker?
> Bull
> You mean because back in March you thought about taking a crack
at him yourself? Anyway, word on the street is that a shadow
team—maybe from out of town—kidnapped one of Evan Perry’s
acts and used them as bait to lure the dragon out.
> Mika
> Maybe Trish Scallinger of The Latch-Key Kids. They’re not officially
signed to Peri’s label, but tabloid gossip has her romantically
linked to the dragon.
> Sunshine
> Word on the street, Mika? Since when did you hang around
Denver?
> Ma’fan
> Believe me, omae, you have more important things to worry about
than where I spend my time.
> Mika
Since being taken into custody, Perianwyr has been denied
either visitors or bail. This means Ghostwalker can keep him
bottled up pretty much indefinitely before getting together whatever
kangaroo court he believes in appropriate. Peri’s contacts in
the music industry, from promoters to club managers to artists,
are very unhappy, but for the most part they are staying tight
lipped about it except in the company of each other. Publicly
denouncing a dragon like Ghostwalker, let alone retaliating,
is way out of their league. For my part, I’m fucking pissed.
Perianwyr’s one of the good guys as far as I’m concerned, and no,
I don’t just mean “for a dragon.”
Whatever his reasons for bailing out these Aztechnology
guys, they don’t change that. The best I can do for right now is
make this injustice known. I don’t expect anyone with any real
clout in Denver to care what I think, but Ghostwalker is way out
of line this time.
> Of course, this concerns a far larger circle than Perianwyr’s friends
and acquaintances. If even a powerful and connected dragon can
be arrested for unauthorized spirit summoning, what does it
mean for the thousands of run-of-the-mill wage mages operating
in Denver? Are non-spirits really becoming second-class citizens?
> Cosmo
> More importantly, what does it mean for the hundreds of mages
and adepts in Denver’s Awakened shadow community, who
have even less protection from Ghostwalker’s wrath? I wasn’t
paying enough attention, but I am now. An enforced ban on spirit
summoning is a big change in the balance of power.
> Lyran
his re-emergence back in March, Ghostwalker outlawed the spontaneous summoning, binding, and
banishing of spirits in Denver, punishable by expulsion or impris- onment. Needless to say, this
was a big deal to all of the region’s mages. It’s frankly an insane law, and this is the most
dramatic and public example I’ve seen of it actually being enforced.
> Ethernaut
> It was She of the City, not Ghostwalker, with whom this decree originated. I shall see what the
spirits of Denver think of this law’s “sanity,” and the “sanity” of the alternative, now that I
have arrived in Denver.
> Axis Mundi
> What about the treason part? That seems rather old school. Must be referring to that Aztechnology
thing, right?
> Kane
> Aztechnology thing?
> Pistons
> When the Second Treaty of Denver was supposed to be renewed, Ghostwalker made his sudden
reappearance and was eyeing the Aztechnology delegation like they were standing on a buffet table.
Perianwyr put himself between Ghostwalker and the AZT executives, and then transported them out of
Denver and back to Las Cruces. [Link]
> Kay St. Irregular
> I’d add “via a magical effect not yet understood by the thaumaturgical community at large” to
that description.
> Winterhawk
> If this is retaliation for that, it’s certainly taken Ghostwalker a while to get around to it.
Then again, these are dragons we’re talking about. They play the long game.
> Frosty
Perianwyr was taken in to the ZDF headquarters in the Hub,
sedated, in chains, and contained in a dragon-sized manacoffin
shortly before noon this morning. He was actually taken into
custody in an abandoned park in the Aurora Warrens just after
midnight; Zone Defense Force special forces and mages sprung
an ambush on him, throwing a net over the poor dragon and
overwhelming him with a barrage of stun spells, large animal
tranquilizers, and taser rounds.
> I’ve seen some of the pirate news footage, and they had scrambled
serious attack helicopters as well. By staying on the ground
and not taking to the air, I think Perianwyr made the choice to go
in alive rather than risk getting geeked by air-to-air missiles and
autocannon fire. Trusting of him, but tangling with a squad of
choppers isn’t a great alternative.
> Rigger X
> I had been wondering what it takes to arrest a dragon. Honestly,
I’m a bit underwhelmed.
> Stone
> Keep in mind that besides being much younger than Ghostwalker,
by all accounts, Perianwyr hasn’t worked the shadows as an
assassin in decades. I can forgive him for getting a bit soft. Poor
guy just loves music.
> Kat o’ Nine Tales
> What the hell was Perry doing in the Aurora Warrens at that time
of night? I thought he’d been very careful to watch his step around
the Front Range Free Zone after pissing off Ghostwalker?
> Bull
> You mean because back in March you thought about taking a crack
at him yourself? Anyway, word on the street is that a shadow
team—maybe from out of town—kidnapped one of Evan Perry’s
acts and used them as bait to lure the dragon out.
> Mika
> Maybe Trish Scallinger of The Latch-Key Kids. They’re not officially
signed to Peri’s label, but tabloid gossip has her romantically
linked to the dragon.
> Sunshine
> Word on the street, Mika? Since when did you hang around
Denver?
> Ma’fan
> Believe me, omae, you have more important things to worry about
than where I spend my time.
> Mika
Since being taken into custody, Perianwyr has been denied
either visitors or bail. This means Ghostwalker can keep him
bottled up pretty much indefinitely before getting together whatever
kangaroo court he believes in appropriate. Peri’s contacts in
the music industry, from promoters to club managers to artists,
are very unhappy, but for the most part they are staying tight
lipped about it except in the company of each other. Publicly
denouncing a dragon like Ghostwalker, let alone retaliating,
is way out of their league. For my part, I’m fucking pissed.
Perianwyr’s one of the good guys as far as I’m concerned, and no,
I don’t just mean “for a dragon.”
Whatever his reasons for bailing out these Aztechnology
guys, they don’t change that. The best I can do for right now is
make this injustice known. I don’t expect anyone with any real
clout in Denver to care what I think, but Ghostwalker is way out
of line this time.
> Of course, this concerns a far larger circle than Perianwyr’s friends
and acquaintances. If even a powerful and connected dragon can
be arrested for unauthorized spirit summoning, what does it
mean for the thousands of run-of-the-mill wage mages operating
in Denver? Are non-spirits really becoming second-class citizens?
> Cosmo
> More importantly, what does it mean for the hundreds of mages
and adepts in Denver’s Awakened shadow community, who
have even less protection from Ghostwalker’s wrath? I wasn’t
paying enough attention, but I am now. An enforced ban on spirit
summoning is a big change in the balance of power.
> Lyran
Given that Peri was charged with illegal summoning (along with treason) this may be a case of he used a spirit to whisk them away, maybe in a Movement/Guard style but on a big ass scale, though some threads have argued other effects in play.
Thanks much! I could not remember where I'd read that, and apparently I did mis-remember the facts.
I never quite got to put this in anywhere, but officially, it was neither teleport nor a movement ability, sort of. What he did was have a spirit with the... Astral Gateway? Is that the name? The power that lets you physically enter the metaplanes. Basically, he zapped into a metaplane, was able to travel through there where the laws of physics and time were a little different, and exit back out.
(As a note, I didn't write the Storm Front bit, but since I've done the majority of Peri's writing over the years, I wanted to work up a viable answer to this. I think originally the author was thinking just a high power levitation/fly ability, but forgot a zero or something on the math.)
(As a note, I didn't write the Storm Front bit, but since I've done the majority of Peri's writing over the years, I wanted to work up a viable answer to this. I think originally the author was thinking just a high power levitation/fly ability, but forgot a zero or something on the math.)
It should also be noted that this was a one-off trick that you won't be seeing again. It nuzzled too close to one of the Golden Rules of Shadowrun magic. Peri used a one-shot Thing to manage it, so you know it was all KINDS of important to him.
The real question then becomes: "Why was this so important?"
Now *that's* a fun one to chew on.
The real question then becomes: "Why was this so important?"
Now *that's* a fun one to chew on.
Thanks for both the question and answers on this – I’d had no clue about that proclamation in Denver or the difficulties that Peri was/is in.
I swear this game almost needs something like a .pdf ‘annual summary’ that would catch all of the high points. I can’t imagine very many people have bought every product over the years, and there is just so much, scattered through so many products. I find it somewhat overwhelming after a couple of years of playing fifth -- and I played during first edition and had at least kept an eye on what was on the shelves through big D’s election and assassination, so at least I had a basis to start from.
I know there is the wiki, but it is pretty short on info from more recent years. I’m not sure if that has been shortage of volunteers or issues with what is considered legit to post there without having copyright issues.
I swear this game almost needs something like a .pdf ‘annual summary’ that would catch all of the high points. I can’t imagine very many people have bought every product over the years, and there is just so much, scattered through so many products. I find it somewhat overwhelming after a couple of years of playing fifth -- and I played during first edition and had at least kept an eye on what was on the shelves through big D’s election and assassination, so at least I had a basis to start from.
I know there is the wiki, but it is pretty short on info from more recent years. I’m not sure if that has been shortage of volunteers or issues with what is considered legit to post there without having copyright issues.
Why not raising funds for a Shadowrun bible (kind of)?
I would crowdfund such a book (imagine a 500-600 pages HUGE book) which every entry illustrated, by thematic.
It would be a dream
I would crowdfund such a book (imagine a 500-600 pages HUGE book) which every entry illustrated, by thematic.
It would be a dream
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 5 2016, 01:28 PM) 
Astral Gateway? Is that the name? The power that lets you physically enter the metaplanes. Basically, he zapped into a metaplane, was able to travel through there where the laws of physics and time were a little different, and exit back out.
Yeah. That's not really how that power works. Except in my very own house rules.
QUOTE (Street Magic, p. 98)
Astral Gateway
Type: M • Action: Complex • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: Sustained
The spirit can open an astral rift (p. 116), forcing all physical objects within the area to be dual natured, as well as allowing even mundanes to astrally project. The astral rift can connect to any metaplane the spirit can visit itself (so while a fire elemental can probably open a rift to the Plane of Fire, it probably can’t open a rift to The Hive).
Type: M • Action: Complex • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: Sustained
The spirit can open an astral rift (p. 116), forcing all physical objects within the area to be dual natured, as well as allowing even mundanes to astrally project. The astral rift can connect to any metaplane the spirit can visit itself (so while a fire elemental can probably open a rift to the Plane of Fire, it probably can’t open a rift to The Hive).
Emphasis mine.
Forced astral projection always meant (in the official rules at least) that you left your body behind where you were sucked into an astral gateway of whatever kind.
The exception to that is an old-ass ability from Earthdawn, where a certain class at a certain level was able to do that for themselves only. And even then it's not instant.
Furthermore, no-one seems to have any particular influence over how time works on metaplanes anyways.
The writer made a mistake, just as so many of the things in Storm Front are unfounded in actual established fluff and crunch.
Oh and before it comes up: I consider "but dragons" a very cheap cop-out.
This is why there was several threads debating this some time back on other forums, as all the current powers as attributed in SR simply couldn't do what Peri did.
This is not the only example. Early on, will have to dig up the exact book later, Ares talks about fireteams going on bug hunts in other metaplanes and the use of heavy weaponry was implied.
How did this happen? Because normally only true weapon foci would go with a projected form and the talk made it seem like the teams were physically entering other realms with their mundane gear.
So it would seem there is an Advanced Form of Astral Gateway somewhere, but not for the likes of us.
Although with the Fae Court book coming soon, this may be changing.
This is not the only example. Early on, will have to dig up the exact book later, Ares talks about fireteams going on bug hunts in other metaplanes and the use of heavy weaponry was implied.
How did this happen? Because normally only true weapon foci would go with a projected form and the talk made it seem like the teams were physically entering other realms with their mundane gear.
So it would seem there is an Advanced Form of Astral Gateway somewhere, but not for the likes of us.
Although with the Fae Court book coming soon, this may be changing.
Been few instances of immortal elves appearing or disappearing. Never sure if this was a teleport or vanishing effect. Vanish ability has always been vague as to where actually go when used. IIRC Earlier editions had an astral gateway power that allowed physical entrance into astral? After 5 editions hard to keep details straight.
Edit: Are charecters in dragon heart trilogy physically transported to meta planes?
Edit: Are charecters in dragon heart trilogy physically transported to meta planes?
Spirit power endowment allow transfer of ability of planear travel?
Edit: Able to physically enter astral rifts, mention in 3rd edition of people wandering into them getting lost.
Edit: Able to physically enter astral rifts, mention in 3rd edition of people wandering into them getting lost.
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 5 2016, 04:28 AM)
I never quite got to put this in anywhere, but officially, it was neither teleport nor a movement ability, sort of. What he did was have a spirit with the... Astral Gateway? Is that the name? The power that lets you physically enter the metaplanes. Basically, he zapped into a metaplane, was able to travel through there where the laws of physics and time were a little different, and exit back out.
And this is exactly the type of "pseudo-teleportation" that I've argued ought to be present at least a bit more often in Shadowrun, given what we've seen of astral space. Tricky to pull off, but darned handy if you can.
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jul 5 2016, 08:56 AM)
Oh and before it comes up: I consider "but dragons" a very cheap cop-out.
Well, I'm with you there. I have a very "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" attitude about RPGs. That is, I despise it when game developers taunt you with cool NPC-only stuff. "Oooh! Look at this! Isn't this just so cool? It's unbelievably awesome and looks great as well! Would you like it? Huh, would you? HA-HA! Too bad! It's only for NPCs, so you can look, but not touch! Losers..."
So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 5 2016, 02:32 PM)
Well, I'm with you there. I have a very "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" attitude about RPGs. That is, I despise it when game developers taunt you with cool NPC-only stuff. "Oooh! Look at this! Isn't this just so cool? It's unbelievably awesome and looks great as well! Would you like it? Huh, would you? HA-HA! Too bad! It's only for NPCs, so you can look, but not touch! Losers..."
So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.
So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.
I'm on your side on this one, tho there are some powers I'll give to certain critters that a PC can't really have unless they're, you know, that critter.
But that 'poof' Peri did will never be seen again.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 5 2016, 09:32 PM)
Well, I'm with you there. I have a very "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" attitude about RPGs. That is, I despise it when game developers taunt you with cool NPC-only stuff. "Oooh! Look at this! Isn't this just so cool? It's unbelievably awesome and looks great as well! Would you like it? Huh, would you? HA-HA! Too bad! It's only for NPCs, so you can look, but not touch! Losers..."
So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.
So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.
I'm pretty okay with certain powers only being available for NPCs, but they shouldn't just be made of pure handwavium.
What's important to me is that established fluff (and corresponding crunch) are respected.
There are a few rules of magic, and one of them is "There is no teleportation".
I'm cool with Movement as a power, or highly rated levitation spells, or even a combination thereof. But some things tick off my grognardism, e.g. when even a cursory calculation reveals that there is no way that something should have worked in the frameset given by the rules (as is the case with a 1min travel time for ~500 miles, at least without the recipient going splat in a spectacular way).
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jul 6 2016, 05:23 AM)
But that 'poof' Peri did will never be seen again.
Thank you, that's good to hear.
I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall that in Lockdown: Boston" one of the corps was working on some sort of anchored meta-planar gate, with the intent to set them up in pairs -- quite different locations on the mundane, but adjacent in a metaplane, so that you could essentially walk through a doorway in one place on earth and almost immediately stop out of another doorway somewhere else (such as linking major buildings of a megacorp between continents). They didn't suggest that it was working, but presumably the corp in question had reason to believe that such a thing was possible.
To me this would suggest that yah, with enough preparation, in just the right circumstances, something as magically adept as a dragon might pull something like this off.
To me this would suggest that yah, with enough preparation, in just the right circumstances, something as magically adept as a dragon might pull something like this off.
There's also a teleport thing in the 1st Harlequin adventure, where both Harlequin and Ehran do teleportation.
QUOTE (Betx @ Jul 6 2016, 05:05 AM)
I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall that in Lockdown: Boston" one of the corps was working on some sort of anchored meta-planar gate, with the intent to set them up in pairs -- quite different locations on the mundane, but adjacent in a metaplane, so that you could essentially walk through a doorway in one place on earth and almost immediately stop out of another doorway somewhere else (such as linking major buildings of a megacorp between continents). They didn't suggest that it was working, but presumably the corp in question had reason to believe that such a thing was possible.
Yes, exactly this. It would probably take a megacorp to afford this, but it’s fast and secure travel between facilities. Link all of your big facilities up, at least, and the savings in travel and shipping costs alone will pay for it fairly quickly. And considering that Wuxing’s big business is shipping, you think they’d be all over this.
As a side note, in fantasy settings where more straightforward teleportation portals are possible, I’ve long (and occasionally loudly) contented that the whole scenario of caravans of goods slowly trekking from city to city across the monster-infested wilderness makes no sense at all. Just set up a portal network, between the big cities at least. Now there’s some security concern there, in that don’t necessarily want a portal from outside your city leading directly inside your city, but that’s easy to address. Establish a fortified keep one day’s ride from your city and put the portal in a courtyard in the middle. Anyone who comes through is surrounded by your soldiers, and even if any invaders do overwhelm them, at least you’ve got a day before they make it to your city. So travel between two such cities is only 2 days, along well-patrolled roads all the way; the monsters hanging out in the wilderness go can scratch their heads and wonder where all the free food went. And if both ends of the portal are both “guaranteed friendly” locations, then you can just directly link them together, without bothering to space the portals out from your cities. To date, I’ve never seen this done in any official fantasy setting, and it makes no sense for this scenario not to exist.
Ayup. It's one of those things where you have to be careful because you can't break your setting.
And things like reliable teleport portals?
That'll break the heck out of a setting.
(Don't get me started on Star Trek transporters. Just ... don't.)
And things like reliable teleport portals?
That'll break the heck out of a setting.
(Don't get me started on Star Trek transporters. Just ... don't.)
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jul 6 2016, 08:09 PM)
Ayup. It's one of those things where you have to be careful because you can't break your setting.
And things like reliable teleport portals?
That'll break the heck out of a setting.
And things like reliable teleport portals?
That'll break the heck out of a setting.
I guess I need to clarify a bit more. I'm very much in favor of such changes. There are a lot of "standard fantasy tropes" that don't make a whole lot of sense when examined even a little more closely, and as a whole are overdue for some good shaking up. Too many settings are seemingly "running on autopilot" and could stand some reevaluation.
it isn't done because it breaks a lot of things with your setting. honestly, same reason shadowrun doesn't have teleport magic for that matter... especially safe teleportation borks a whole heck of a lot of stuff, but even dangerous teleportation comes with all kinds of baggage.
now, a lot of the stuff you can do with teleportation gates would be extremely advantageous. but it generally makes for much worse storytelling.
now, a lot of the stuff you can do with teleportation gates would be extremely advantageous. but it generally makes for much worse storytelling.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 6 2016, 11:22 PM)
now, a lot of the stuff you can do with teleportation gates would be extremely advantageous. but it generally makes for much worse storytelling.
We disagree, then. It changes things, and then you must explore a different story. Different != bad.
Gates are not so bad because they are static points.
Star trek style teleporting would be more problematic on the whole, but can still be done.
Plus there should also be Anti-Portal stuff, like maybe BGC makes the area too turbulent to pass through the gate/teleport with, effectively shutting that end down.
And any corp worth their soysalt will have anti-porting wards around sensitive sections to avoid exactly this, forcing teams to still go in manually.
It's like the Jhereg series by Brust.
Teleport is available, but many still walk or use horses because it takes considerable time and training to learn the ability and there are teleport proof wards so some areas you can not simply pop in or out of. There are those who hire out their services to teleport, but then coin becomes the limiting factor, so again reserving it for more specialized use than for simple tasks like getting some milk from the local grocer.
Plus you could throw in the classic tech vs magic conundrum and say you can not haul too much techie stuff on a teleport without raising the difficulty in casting.
So a shaman with minimal tech can pop around fairly easily (easy being relative since teleport magics should be fair drain and stuff), but it would take alot more effort to do the same for the heavily cybered sammie loaded for bear with a fragton of guns.
Maybe using the object resistance tables to act as a counter to the test for teleport, making it really hard to teleport your drone in and out of a hot spot.
Star trek style teleporting would be more problematic on the whole, but can still be done.
Plus there should also be Anti-Portal stuff, like maybe BGC makes the area too turbulent to pass through the gate/teleport with, effectively shutting that end down.
And any corp worth their soysalt will have anti-porting wards around sensitive sections to avoid exactly this, forcing teams to still go in manually.
It's like the Jhereg series by Brust.
Teleport is available, but many still walk or use horses because it takes considerable time and training to learn the ability and there are teleport proof wards so some areas you can not simply pop in or out of. There are those who hire out their services to teleport, but then coin becomes the limiting factor, so again reserving it for more specialized use than for simple tasks like getting some milk from the local grocer.
Plus you could throw in the classic tech vs magic conundrum and say you can not haul too much techie stuff on a teleport without raising the difficulty in casting.
So a shaman with minimal tech can pop around fairly easily (easy being relative since teleport magics should be fair drain and stuff), but it would take alot more effort to do the same for the heavily cybered sammie loaded for bear with a fragton of guns.
Maybe using the object resistance tables to act as a counter to the test for teleport, making it really hard to teleport your drone in and out of a hot spot.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 7 2016, 01:41 AM)
We disagree, then. It changes things, and then you must explore a different story. Different != bad.
Take, for instance, comics. They're set in a world much like our own. Only you have super-genius types like Reed Richards and Tony Stark around. Gripping it by the horns, the world of Marvel after 50 years of Superheroes doin things is going to be *unrecognizable* to people.
Which is why it isn't done.
People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.
For your homegame tho, knock it out.
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jul 7 2016, 12:31 PM)
Take, for instance, comics. They're set in a world much like our own. Only you have super-genius types like Reed Richards and Tony Stark around. Gripping it by the horns, the world of Marvel after 50 years of Superheroes doin things is going to be *unrecognizable* to people.
Which is why it isn't done.
People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.
For your homegame tho, knock it out.
Which is why it isn't done.
People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.
For your homegame tho, knock it out.
a) Pretty much this ^^^^
b) The more you change how things are / how things were / established tropes, the more you have to explain how your world works, the more effort your readers or players need to invest just to understand the world, so the higher the barrier to entry. Sometimes people may choose to leave some things that don’t stand up to much analysis simply because they don’t want to make their world seem too weird at first blush.
c) Of course, the writers may not have thought things through, or not be good at such analysis, because any major change is soon going to percolate through economics, politics, culture, warfare …. And soon you are putting in a ton of effort on world building instead of writing the story that excited you.
d) Sometimes the logical conclusions of such things change the worlds in ways you may not like. I have no idea if this is the case, but this is how the Merchant Prince series by Charles Stross always felt to me – it started off as a kind of fun series where a woman discovers that she is part of a bloodline that can move between an alternate earth (that happens to be in a more or less medieval state) and ours. That family uses this to smuggle drugs on our earth, paying for the weapons and luxuries to make them nobles on the alternate earth. By several books into the series there is fairly rampant use of nuclear weapons, enslavement of people of that bloodline by governments, and basically almost everything is unpleasant – it is all a fairly logical extrapolation from that ‘one difference’ starting point, but it turns things pretty severely dark.
teleportation gates pretty much turn distant places into places right next door. it doesn't really let you tell new stories. it just lets you tell stories about one big place where the one big place doesn't have to all be located physically adjacent to each other.
you can already tell stories about one big place. and a regular big place is generally big enough to tell pretty much any story.
meanwhile, teleportation gates completely ruin stories where part of the story is about actually getting somewhere.
it doesn't really serve a purpose.
you can already tell stories about one big place. and a regular big place is generally big enough to tell pretty much any story.
meanwhile, teleportation gates completely ruin stories where part of the story is about actually getting somewhere.
it doesn't really serve a purpose.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 7 2016, 01:48 AM)
Gates are not so bad because they are static points.
Star trek style teleporting would be more problematic on the whole, but can still be done.
Plus there should also be Anti-Portal stuff, like maybe BGC makes the area too turbulent to pass through the gate/teleport with, effectively shutting that end down.
And any corp worth their soysalt will have anti-porting wards around sensitive sections to avoid exactly this, forcing teams to still go in manually.
Star trek style teleporting would be more problematic on the whole, but can still be done.
Plus there should also be Anti-Portal stuff, like maybe BGC makes the area too turbulent to pass through the gate/teleport with, effectively shutting that end down.
And any corp worth their soysalt will have anti-porting wards around sensitive sections to avoid exactly this, forcing teams to still go in manually.
Exactly. “Free-form” teleporting can be problematic, but “linked rings” portals are far more controllable. Additionally, as you’re travelling through astral space in SR, an astral ward is going to be a solid wall to you, and astral wards are fairly common.
Imagine this scenario in SR. People notice Peri’s little show and draw the obvious conclusion – travel via astral space really is possible. But it’s not really instantaneous. Astral travel is 6,000 km/hour (or 1,000 km/hour * Magic Rating in our house rules). The best comparison I can make here is Babylon 5 – travel in hyperspace is faster than traveling in normal space, but most people use an established gate network to access it; the real hotshots can make their own gates on the fly (for the SR world, assume this is probably only the GDs and IEs at present).
For instance, Wuxing notes that they could really use this idea, and, seeing as they’re in both the shipping business and the magical business, decide to make that a reality. Ten years of R&D and a whole lot of nuyen later, and they’ve cracked the problem, and start setting up their portal network. Though ultimately, it’s better suited for cargo than people if you’re going any real distance. If you’re going at least 6,000 km away, it’s going to take an hour to get there. Can you hold your breath that long? And by the way, no we can’t pull off to the side of the road if you had that 64oz soda before this little trip.
So, it’s great for chucking cargo containers through for trans-oceanic shipping, but you’ll need life support (at least) to ship people through, if they’re going any real distance. On the other hand, if you want to link up facilities in the same city, this is a real boon. Most corps would love it if they could head over to their other facility across town at any time and bypass the “rabble and peasants” outside their gated communities. The travel time in astral space is negligible for such short little hops.
From a Shadowrunning perspective, for those of you running “traditional” campaigns (and not doing actually legit work like our group mostly does), this means that intercepting shipments of cargo and/or people from the megacorps gets harder. Ambushing them outside isn’t strictly impossible, but would be tricky at best – so you’ll actually have to get inside that big, highly-secured facility to reach your targets instead…
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jul 7 2016, 05:31 AM)
Take, for instance, comics. They're set in a world much like our own. Only you have super-genius types like Reed Richards and Tony Stark around. Gripping it by the horns, the world of Marvel after 50 years of Superheroes doin things is going to be *unrecognizable* to people.
Which is why it isn't done.
People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.
For your homegame tho, knock it out.
Which is why it isn't done.
People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.
For your homegame tho, knock it out.
Ugh – the Reed Richards is Useless problem. Possibly my most hated sci-fi/fantasy trope. Either control the setting’s genius gadgeteers, or rule that their fancy gadgets are really just used as a “lens to focus their power” and thus only work for them. Otherwise, yes, explore the ramifications. Tony Stark has invented cheap, clean power? Fantastic, let that spread across the world and see where it takes you. I can look out the window and see the real world anytime I want – show me something new, take me 20 Minutes Into the Future, twist a few variables and explore the outcome.
And if it’s comics, you only have to explore for something like a decade anyway, then you’ll reboot the line to realign with current history, and package up the old line as a “Collector’s Item” series of PDFs and sell them online. Rinse and repeat.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 7 2016, 10:25 AM)
teleportation gates pretty much turn distant places into places right next door. it doesn't really let you tell new stories. it just lets you tell stories about one big place where the one big place doesn't have to all be located physically adjacent to each other.
you can already tell stories about one big place. and a regular big place is generally big enough to tell pretty much any story.
meanwhile, teleportation gates completely ruin stories where part of the story is about actually getting somewhere.
it doesn't really serve a purpose.
you can already tell stories about one big place. and a regular big place is generally big enough to tell pretty much any story.
meanwhile, teleportation gates completely ruin stories where part of the story is about actually getting somewhere.
it doesn't really serve a purpose.
Yes, it’s not like any sort of portal network could actually be used to tell any interesting stories. There was also never a successful movie called Stargate, and it definitely didn’t spawn 3 tv series that ran for a total of 17 seasons. Babylon 5 never existed, and wasn’t an awesome show, either.
You’re right, those kinds of stories are totally useless, and never go anywhere.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 7 2016, 02:20 PM)
Yes, it’s not like any sort of portal network could actually be used to tell any interesting stories. There was also never a successful movie called Stargate, and it definitely didn’t spawn 3 tv series that ran for a total of 17 seasons. Babylon 5 never existed, and wasn’t an awesome show, either.
You’re right, those kinds of stories are totally useless, and never go anywhere.
You’re right, those kinds of stories are totally useless, and never go anywhere.
Can we pretend that the Stargate Universe spin-off never existed?
Not sure why, just never really appealedl to me and I enjoy the Stargate franchise on the whole.
Actually, I just had a thought for a hilarious scenario. Suborbitals and semiballistics might actually be faster than astral gates. Quotes from Rigger 3, pp. 70 – 71:
I can see the commercial now:
SETTING 1: [A man in a crisp, expensive business suit boards a semiballistic flight and seats himself comfortably in First Class. He is the epitome of class and taste.]
SETTING 2: [Another man in a business suit, not as expensive and looking nervous approaches a magician in a forbidding-looking lair. The magician looks like some crazy shaman with wild eyes and hair.]
SECOND MAN: “I need to get from Seattle to Tokyo right away! If I don’t, my rival will beat me on the business deal of a lifetime!”
MAGICIAN: [cackles madly in a deranged voice] “Of course! Of course! Do you have my fee?”
SECOND MAN: [nervously transfers a large sum over his commlink to the magician]
MAGICIAN: [cackles even more madly]: “Excellent! Well, here we go! Alakazam! Abracadabra!" [a portal of menacing, swirling energy appears behind the Second Man and sucks him in, screaming in terror.]
SETTING 3: [A street in Tokyo, several hours later. The First Man is sitting outside at an expensive restaurant, looking comfortable and sipping a cup of tea. Suddenly, a magic portal opens, and the Second Man comes flying out, landing sprawling on the sidewalk. His suit is horribly rumpled, and his papers go flying everywhere.]
SECOND MAN: [looks around frantically, trying to pull himself together] “Am I there?! Did I make it?! I’ve got to get to that meeting!”
FIRST MAN: [looks over at the Second Man disdainfully] “Oh, that meeting? It was concluded hours ago. Your presence wasn’t really required.”
SECOND MAN: [collapses to his knees in agony, wailing at the sky] “NOOOOOOO!!!”
VOICE-OVER: “Remember, when you really need to reach your destination quickly, depend on technology over magic. It gets you where you need to go, quickly and reliably. And remember us, we’re…"
Trans-Pacific Airways
Faster Than Magic ™
For purposes of calculating travel time, a semiballistic has an equivalent ground speed of 12,000 kilometers per hour. So a semiballistic flight from Seattle to Tokyo (a distance of approximately 14,000 kilometers) takes approximately one hour and five minutes (14,000 / 12,000). (A semiballistic's actual speed is much faster about 24,000 Kph or Mach 19, but its flight path takes the semiballistic away from the Earth's surface.)
...
All suborbitals have a maximum speed of 10,000 kilometers per hour (about Mach '8') while in suborbital flight. So that trip from Seattle to Tokyo (14,000 kilometers) would take about an hour and twenty-five minutes on a suborbital.
I can see the commercial now:
SETTING 1: [A man in a crisp, expensive business suit boards a semiballistic flight and seats himself comfortably in First Class. He is the epitome of class and taste.]
SETTING 2: [Another man in a business suit, not as expensive and looking nervous approaches a magician in a forbidding-looking lair. The magician looks like some crazy shaman with wild eyes and hair.]
SECOND MAN: “I need to get from Seattle to Tokyo right away! If I don’t, my rival will beat me on the business deal of a lifetime!”
MAGICIAN: [cackles madly in a deranged voice] “Of course! Of course! Do you have my fee?”
SECOND MAN: [nervously transfers a large sum over his commlink to the magician]
MAGICIAN: [cackles even more madly]: “Excellent! Well, here we go! Alakazam! Abracadabra!" [a portal of menacing, swirling energy appears behind the Second Man and sucks him in, screaming in terror.]
SETTING 3: [A street in Tokyo, several hours later. The First Man is sitting outside at an expensive restaurant, looking comfortable and sipping a cup of tea. Suddenly, a magic portal opens, and the Second Man comes flying out, landing sprawling on the sidewalk. His suit is horribly rumpled, and his papers go flying everywhere.]
SECOND MAN: [looks around frantically, trying to pull himself together] “Am I there?! Did I make it?! I’ve got to get to that meeting!”
FIRST MAN: [looks over at the Second Man disdainfully] “Oh, that meeting? It was concluded hours ago. Your presence wasn’t really required.”
SECOND MAN: [collapses to his knees in agony, wailing at the sky] “NOOOOOOO!!!”
VOICE-OVER: “Remember, when you really need to reach your destination quickly, depend on technology over magic. It gets you where you need to go, quickly and reliably. And remember us, we’re…"
Trans-Pacific Airways
Faster Than Magic ™
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 7 2016, 11:08 AM)
Can we pretend that the Stargate Universe spin-off never existed?
Not sure why, just never really appealedl to me and I enjoy the Stargate franchise on the whole.
Not sure why, just never really appealedl to me and I enjoy the Stargate franchise on the whole.
LOL. Works for me. I actually dropped out about 2/3rds of the way through SG-1, but it was good up until then.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 7 2016, 01:10 PM)
Ugh – the Reed Richards is Useless problem. Possibly my most hated sci-fi/fantasy trope. Either control the setting’s genius gadgeteers, or rule that their fancy gadgets are really just used as a “lens to focus their power” and thus only work for them. Otherwise, yes, explore the ramifications. Tony Stark has invented cheap, clean power? Fantastic, let that spread across the world and see where it takes you. I can look out the window and see the real world anytime I want – show me something new, take me 20 Minutes Into the Future, twist a few variables and explore the outcome.
And if it’s comics, you only have to explore for something like a decade anyway, then you’ll reboot the line to realign with current history, and package up the old line as a “Collector’s Item” series of PDFs and sell them online. Rinse and repeat.
And if it’s comics, you only have to explore for something like a decade anyway, then you’ll reboot the line to realign with current history, and package up the old line as a “Collector’s Item” series of PDFs and sell them online. Rinse and repeat.
It starts like we have today, 20 minutes into the future. But then you add more, then someone else adds more, then someone else has to add even more, and in a few years, your world no longer resembles what it did. Moreover, you now have to explain all of that as new people check in.
There's a reason nobody starts series on book 6 of 7.
You may well not like it, but it happens for good reason.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 7 2016, 02:20 PM)
Yes, it’s not like any sort of portal network could actually be used to tell any interesting stories. There was also never a successful movie called Stargate, and it definitely didn’t spawn 3 tv series that ran for a total of 17 seasons. Babylon 5 never existed, and wasn’t an awesome show, either.
You’re right, those kinds of stories are totally useless, and never go anywhere.
You’re right, those kinds of stories are totally useless, and never go anywhere.
they didn't really explore much of the implications of the gates in those shows. pretty much everything remained exactly the same. most of the worlds they visited were places that hadn't even *used* gates in hundreds or even thousands of years.
and very little of the stories they told could not have been told if instead of gates they just had to travel by conventional means.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 8 2016, 07:55 AM)
they didn't really explore much of the implications of the gates in those shows. pretty much everything remained exactly the same. most of the worlds they visited were places that hadn't even *used* gates in hundreds or even thousands of years.
and very little of the stories they told could not have been told if instead of gates they just had to travel by conventional means.
and very little of the stories they told could not have been told if instead of gates they just had to travel by conventional means.
For Stargate, that's true to some extent, but I also gave you a whole page of other books, movies, etc. where portal networks played a good part of the story. So you're just arbitrarily dismissing an entire sub-genre because...you just don't like it, I guess.
The closest equivalent for SR astral travel would be B5, and hyperspace gates and travel were not an easily-replaced, inconsequential part of that storyline.
i no longer go to tvtropes if i can resist it. i fear that i will be found, weeks from now, sitting at my computer having died of thirst.
that said, i bet most of them you could just put things relatively closer to each other and tell more or less the same story. you might have to tweak things a bit (instead of controlling a jump point someone might be controlling a mountain pass or a canal) but often you can just skip stuff.
sadly, i don't know as much about babylon 5 in particular as i might wish... i never really had the chance to sit down and watch it years ago on a consistent basis. but i doubt it was as irrevocably tied to hyperspace travel as you might wish.
(also, on a side note, you wouldn't use astral travel. you'd use a metaplanar shortcut for a few seconds of travel time regardless of distance).
that said, i bet most of them you could just put things relatively closer to each other and tell more or less the same story. you might have to tweak things a bit (instead of controlling a jump point someone might be controlling a mountain pass or a canal) but often you can just skip stuff.
sadly, i don't know as much about babylon 5 in particular as i might wish... i never really had the chance to sit down and watch it years ago on a consistent basis. but i doubt it was as irrevocably tied to hyperspace travel as you might wish.
(also, on a side note, you wouldn't use astral travel. you'd use a metaplanar shortcut for a few seconds of travel time regardless of distance).
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 8 2016, 09:14 PM)
i no longer go to tvtropes if i can resist it. i fear that i will be found, weeks from now, sitting at my computer having died of thirst.
LOL. You have to work on your willpower. I can usually break away after 30 mins to an hour.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 8 2016, 09:14 PM)
that said, i bet most of them you could just put things relatively closer to each other and tell more or less the same story. you might have to tweak things a bit (instead of controlling a jump point someone might be controlling a mountain pass or a canal) but often you can just skip stuff.
Um…no, not really. You can’t just say something like “Forget all that space travel, just put all planets in the universe right next door to each other, and then no one has to do any traveling!” In many cases, if not most on that page, the travel is still a valid part of the story. Again, you’re just arbitrarily dismissing an entire sub-genre for…reasons.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 8 2016, 09:14 PM)
sadly, i don't know as much about babylon 5 in particular as i might wish... i never really had the chance to sit down and watch it years ago on a consistent basis. but i doubt it was as irrevocably tied to hyperspace travel as you might wish.
Go watch Thirdspace again (or any episode where people are lost in, fight in, or find strange things in hyperspace). It’s definitely the Dragon Heart Saga of B5. I just watched it again today and the many parallels were unmistakable. You could take hyperspace out of B5, but it would be like taking astral space out of Shadowrun. Yes, it could be done, but in both cases it would be a drastic change to the setting; both settings are better off with this aspect intact.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 8 2016, 09:14 PM)
(also, on a side note, you wouldn't use astral travel. you'd use a metaplanar shortcut for a few seconds of travel time regardless of distance).
If you can pull that off, then yes, that would be much faster. But it’s much easier to access astral space than the metaplanes. I highly suspect that practical astral travel will be achieved some time before metaplanar travel. But even at that point, you’re probably talking about expensive portal sets (you want to make sure you know where you’re going to step out at the other end). That would replace long-distance travel on the planet, but not local travel (again, probably expensive paired sets). And countries will still want to maintain their borders. So megacorps will link their global facilities up, but countries will insist these be placed at airports, for customs and immigration control. In the end, they’ll be the equivalent of even faster semiballistics – fast, but expensive, and only available in certain locations. The consequences for shadowrunners will be as I said – you can’t count on ambushing anyone or any shipments outside of a megacorp facility anymore; you’ll have to go inside.
it's hard to say whether metaplanar shortcuts are harder or easier than astral shortcuts (which ultimately as you noted would be slower than tech-based travel in many cases). and astral portals are probably not much safer if someone is really out to get you (people that can astrally project are more rare than people who can't, but they're not so rare that you are unlikely to be able to hire them to intercept an astral trip if you want to badly enough. also, the people who can astrally project are typically more dangerous, and this whole system is all about making regular people astrally project, so it accomplishes very little against people that can afford their own astral portal).
but i can tell you that in the earthdawn source material that you seem to favour, it seemed a lot easier relatively speaking to create instant-travel portals (which is a lot more like a metaplanar shortcut) than it was to travel in the astral (also safer, but i suspect the safeness has a lot to do with the astral being thoroughly corrupted by horrors with massive levels of background count). i can remember at least a couple spells that would accomplish the effect (albeit with some targeting restrictions), while netherwalk (basically astral projection) was a 12th circle discipline exclusive to nethermancers based on the book i have available to me (published by redbrick, copyright 2005 or 2007... it's a bit unclear) which means you have to devote a whole lot to it. meanwhile, an 8th circle illusion spell or a 10th circle nethermancer spell can accomplish instant travel through a portal, but with a *lot* less investment... lower circle, and only requiring you to have a spell for it. there's even a 7th circle nethermancer spell that lets you go to the metaplanes, but doesn't give you a shortcut to somewhere else in meatspace.
so i dunno about the astral portal being easier.
but i can tell you that in the earthdawn source material that you seem to favour, it seemed a lot easier relatively speaking to create instant-travel portals (which is a lot more like a metaplanar shortcut) than it was to travel in the astral (also safer, but i suspect the safeness has a lot to do with the astral being thoroughly corrupted by horrors with massive levels of background count). i can remember at least a couple spells that would accomplish the effect (albeit with some targeting restrictions), while netherwalk (basically astral projection) was a 12th circle discipline exclusive to nethermancers based on the book i have available to me (published by redbrick, copyright 2005 or 2007... it's a bit unclear) which means you have to devote a whole lot to it. meanwhile, an 8th circle illusion spell or a 10th circle nethermancer spell can accomplish instant travel through a portal, but with a *lot* less investment... lower circle, and only requiring you to have a spell for it. there's even a 7th circle nethermancer spell that lets you go to the metaplanes, but doesn't give you a shortcut to somewhere else in meatspace.
so i dunno about the astral portal being easier.
I know it sounds odd, but travelling between here and a Metaplane is basically physical point to point travel. Granted we transition through the astral, but we are not really taking part of it.
Think of like being in some biospheres at the bottom of an astral ocean. The two spheres are their own little universes and they can be connected by conduits, which in this case is our portals acting as traverse points without actually getting our metaphysical booties wet.
This is also why a spirit can do an end run around an Astral ward by skipping off to it's metaplane, moving to a different point there and then cross back to the physical realm on the other side of the Ward, assuming it has some way to make the passage via a link, a summoning, or similar..
If effect you have Room 1 with a big fence in the form of the Astral ward in the middle barring passage.
But by going off into Room 2, the other metaplane, which happens to have doors at both ends of one wall in Room 1 he gets to bypass the Ward.
Traversing into the Astral itself is a bit different. It's not made of the same stuff, or its made of all the stuff but it has not achieved it's potential yet, depending on which metaphysicist you talk to.
It is a realm of pure spirit and we already can travel there by projecting our spirit stuff there, because they are similar.
To go dragging the rest of yourself, aka the meat body or other physical objects into a realm of thought/emotion is not too unlike a 3-D person dropping in on a differently dimensioned realm, some reshaping/transitioning is required.
It can be done, but should be a bit more convoluted as you are basically trying to tap into the underlying reality of things.
Not unlike the difference between walking down a road to your destination and bonding into the road to traverse it.
B5 Hyperspace is something different than SR Astral, it is basically a different metaplane with condensed points of contact so that 100km there equates to far bigger distance here.
Also you couldn't use those on the planet themselves, the energetic discharge in forming the gateway was disastrous if lit up in a planet's atmosphere.
Which always made me wonder why they didn't make hyperspace 'bombs', drop on planet and make it go Fwoom..
But I do like the idea of a webwork of portals linking up distant locations/metaplanes though there should be hazards to this as well, and keep teleportation to something that is not so common that you can easily teleport down to the local Stuffer shack for snacks.
Because you just know that the rest of the team makes that Circle Necromancer go get the pizza all the time.
Think of like being in some biospheres at the bottom of an astral ocean. The two spheres are their own little universes and they can be connected by conduits, which in this case is our portals acting as traverse points without actually getting our metaphysical booties wet.
This is also why a spirit can do an end run around an Astral ward by skipping off to it's metaplane, moving to a different point there and then cross back to the physical realm on the other side of the Ward, assuming it has some way to make the passage via a link, a summoning, or similar..
If effect you have Room 1 with a big fence in the form of the Astral ward in the middle barring passage.
But by going off into Room 2, the other metaplane, which happens to have doors at both ends of one wall in Room 1 he gets to bypass the Ward.
Traversing into the Astral itself is a bit different. It's not made of the same stuff, or its made of all the stuff but it has not achieved it's potential yet, depending on which metaphysicist you talk to.
It is a realm of pure spirit and we already can travel there by projecting our spirit stuff there, because they are similar.
To go dragging the rest of yourself, aka the meat body or other physical objects into a realm of thought/emotion is not too unlike a 3-D person dropping in on a differently dimensioned realm, some reshaping/transitioning is required.
It can be done, but should be a bit more convoluted as you are basically trying to tap into the underlying reality of things.
Not unlike the difference between walking down a road to your destination and bonding into the road to traverse it.
B5 Hyperspace is something different than SR Astral, it is basically a different metaplane with condensed points of contact so that 100km there equates to far bigger distance here.
Also you couldn't use those on the planet themselves, the energetic discharge in forming the gateway was disastrous if lit up in a planet's atmosphere.
Which always made me wonder why they didn't make hyperspace 'bombs', drop on planet and make it go Fwoom..
But I do like the idea of a webwork of portals linking up distant locations/metaplanes though there should be hazards to this as well, and keep teleportation to something that is not so common that you can easily teleport down to the local Stuffer shack for snacks.
Because you just know that the rest of the team makes that Circle Necromancer go get the pizza all the time.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 9 2016, 10:44 PM)
it's hard to say whether metaplanar shortcuts are harder or easier than astral shortcuts (which ultimately as you noted would be slower than tech-based travel in many cases). and astral portals are probably not much safer if someone is really out to get you (people that can astrally project are more rare than people who can't, but they're not so rare that you are unlikely to be able to hire them to intercept an astral trip if you want to badly enough. also, the people who can astrally project are typically more dangerous, and this whole system is all about making regular people astrally project, so it accomplishes very little against people that can afford their own astral portal).
but i can tell you that in the earthdawn source material that you seem to favour, it seemed a lot easier relatively speaking to create instant-travel portals (which is a lot more like a metaplanar shortcut) than it was to travel in the astral (also safer, but i suspect the safeness has a lot to do with the astral being thoroughly corrupted by horrors with massive levels of background count). i can remember at least a couple spells that would accomplish the effect (albeit with some targeting restrictions), while netherwalk (basically astral projection) was a 12th circle discipline exclusive to nethermancers based on the book i have available to me (published by redbrick, copyright 2005 or 2007... it's a bit unclear) which means you have to devote a whole lot to it. meanwhile, an 8th circle illusion spell or a 10th circle nethermancer spell can accomplish instant travel through a portal, but with a *lot* less investment... lower circle, and only requiring you to have a spell for it. there's even a 7th circle nethermancer spell that lets you go to the metaplanes, but doesn't give you a shortcut to somewhere else in meatspace.
so i dunno about the astral portal being easier.
but i can tell you that in the earthdawn source material that you seem to favour, it seemed a lot easier relatively speaking to create instant-travel portals (which is a lot more like a metaplanar shortcut) than it was to travel in the astral (also safer, but i suspect the safeness has a lot to do with the astral being thoroughly corrupted by horrors with massive levels of background count). i can remember at least a couple spells that would accomplish the effect (albeit with some targeting restrictions), while netherwalk (basically astral projection) was a 12th circle discipline exclusive to nethermancers based on the book i have available to me (published by redbrick, copyright 2005 or 2007... it's a bit unclear) which means you have to devote a whole lot to it. meanwhile, an 8th circle illusion spell or a 10th circle nethermancer spell can accomplish instant travel through a portal, but with a *lot* less investment... lower circle, and only requiring you to have a spell for it. there's even a 7th circle nethermancer spell that lets you go to the metaplanes, but doesn't give you a shortcut to somewhere else in meatspace.
so i dunno about the astral portal being easier.
Anyone with the Magician quality and Magic 1 can access astral space (astral perception makes them dual-natured for the duration, and they can astrally project). Heck, so can any dual-natured critters. So this level of access is pretty darn common (among the Awakened/paracritters, at any rate).
But only initiates can access the metaplanes, and that’s never just a trip to the local grocery store. Metaplanar quests are at least moderately serious business. So I think I can fairly easily make the case that engineering a metaplanar shortcut portal network will be considerably more complex than creating an astral space portal network.
Consulting the ED books, I have the 2nd Edition Core Rules and the Companion, and these are the astral transport spells I could find.
In the Core Rules, there’s a 7th Circle Nethermancer spell called Spirit Portal, which opens a portal to step into or out of astral space. You’re on your own for travel at that point.
In the Companion, there’s a 7th Circle Nethermancer spell called Step Through Shadow, with a 100 yard max range, that is explicitly a “tunnel” through astral space, not a metaplanar shortcut. There’s also a 10th level Nethermancer spell called Gateway, with a max range of 5,000 miles, which allows travel to an established magical circle through astral space, and takes hours of prep to use each time.
So none of these spells offer access to the metaplanes (or the netherworlds, as they were known back then). That said, I’m much more interested in the fluff than the crunch of the ED setting, so I’ve scarcely memorized the mechanics of every spell. There might be some better transport spells in some of the other books.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 10 2016, 02:23 AM)
I know it sounds odd, but travelling between here and a Metaplane is basically physical point to point travel. Granted we transition through the astral, but we are not really taking part of it.
Think of like being in some biospheres at the bottom of an astral ocean. The two spheres are their own little universes and they can be connected by conduits, which in this case is our portals acting as traverse points without actually getting our metaphysical booties wet.
This is also why a spirit can do an end run around an Astral ward by skipping off to it's metaplane, moving to a different point there and then cross back to the physical realm on the other side of the Ward, assuming it has some way to make the passage via a link, a summoning, or similar..
If effect you have Room 1 with a big fence in the form of the Astral ward in the middle barring passage.
But by going off into Room 2, the other metaplane, which happens to have doors at both ends of one wall in Room 1 he gets to bypass the Ward.
Traversing into the Astral itself is a bit different. It's not made of the same stuff, or its made of all the stuff but it has not achieved it's potential yet, depending on which metaphysicist you talk to.
It is a realm of pure spirit and we already can travel there by projecting our spirit stuff there, because they are similar.
To go dragging the rest of yourself, aka the meat body or other physical objects into a realm of thought/emotion is not too unlike a 3-D person dropping in on a differently dimensioned realm, some reshaping/transitioning is required.
It can be done, but should be a bit more convoluted as you are basically trying to tap into the underlying reality of things.
Not unlike the difference between walking down a road to your destination and bonding into the road to traverse it.
Think of like being in some biospheres at the bottom of an astral ocean. The two spheres are their own little universes and they can be connected by conduits, which in this case is our portals acting as traverse points without actually getting our metaphysical booties wet.
This is also why a spirit can do an end run around an Astral ward by skipping off to it's metaplane, moving to a different point there and then cross back to the physical realm on the other side of the Ward, assuming it has some way to make the passage via a link, a summoning, or similar..
If effect you have Room 1 with a big fence in the form of the Astral ward in the middle barring passage.
But by going off into Room 2, the other metaplane, which happens to have doors at both ends of one wall in Room 1 he gets to bypass the Ward.
Traversing into the Astral itself is a bit different. It's not made of the same stuff, or its made of all the stuff but it has not achieved it's potential yet, depending on which metaphysicist you talk to.
It is a realm of pure spirit and we already can travel there by projecting our spirit stuff there, because they are similar.
To go dragging the rest of yourself, aka the meat body or other physical objects into a realm of thought/emotion is not too unlike a 3-D person dropping in on a differently dimensioned realm, some reshaping/transitioning is required.
It can be done, but should be a bit more convoluted as you are basically trying to tap into the underlying reality of things.
Not unlike the difference between walking down a road to your destination and bonding into the road to traverse it.
As I’ve said above to Jaid, astral space is “right next door” and accessing it is demonstrably easier than accessing the metaplanes. Sure, spirits can do it easily, but that’s because they’re metaplanar natives, and they’re essentially “faking” having a physical form on Earth (if they can Materialize). Metahumans are not, and moving themselves physically even to the astral is going to be a fairly big deal just by itself. The metaplanes are “farther away” destinations, and again, are demonstrably harder to reach.
BTW, that spirit “end run” around astral barriers is forbidden in our house rules. Astral wards are “solid,” not “hollow,” and so it’s not a matter of “reaching the other side of the fence,” as the entire area inside the ward is “filled in” with the ward, if you see what I mean. In canon, without this fix, astral wards are near worthless against spirits, which is kind of one of the main points of actually having one. So if it can’t beat the ward, it’s well and truly kept outside, regardless of whether it’s been there before the ward was erected and/or has a clear view inside.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 10 2016, 02:23 AM)
B5 Hyperspace is something different than SR Astral, it is basically a different metaplane with condensed points of contact so that 100km there equates to far bigger distance here.
No, B5 hyperspace is most definitely not like a metaplane. Much like SR astral space, which seems pretty coterminous with realspace, B5 hyperspace is semi-coterminous with realspace. It’s the “semi” part that makes it useful for travel, as traveling the distance towards your destination in hyperspace is a much shorter trip than traveling towards your destination in realspace. But there is still travel involved, and longer distances in realspace are also longer distances in hyperspace; expect your 20 light year trip to take about twice as long as your 10 light year trip in hyperspace. As you said, hyperspace’s contact with realspace is “condensed,” but it’s still far more comparable to astral space than the metaplanes. If it was the equivalent of a metaplane, ships would pop in, and then promptly pop back out again at their destination, but they don’t – they have to do some traveling there, sometimes for long periods, to reach their destination. If you want to see contact with the equivalent of a metaplane in B5, go watch Thirdspace (again, the SR/ED parallels there cannot be missed).
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 10 2016, 02:23 AM)
Also you couldn't use those on the planet themselves, the energetic discharge in forming the gateway was disastrous if lit up in a planet's atmosphere.
Which always made me wonder why they didn't make hyperspace 'bombs', drop on planet and make it go Fwoom..
Which always made me wonder why they didn't make hyperspace 'bombs', drop on planet and make it go Fwoom..
Hyperspace weapons seem completely feasible to me. I’m guessing they didn’t think of it. It would scarcely be the first instance where the fandom figured out greater exploitation of a concept than the creators. Also, it was only highly combustible atmospheres where opening a gate inside them was a problem. It’s just that open space is also a lot more forgiving if your targeting coordinates are a bit off, so targeting a short distance away from the planet is usually much safer. That said, sure, there’s no reason not to open a portal and start chucking bombs though it to your enemy’s base, if you’re advanced enough to open and target your own portals without dependency on the gates network.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 10 2016, 02:23 AM)
But I do like the idea of a webwork of portals linking up distant locations/metaplanes though there should be hazards to this as well, and keep teleportation to something that is not so common that you can easily teleport down to the local Stuffer shack for snacks.
Because you just know that the rest of the team makes that Circle Necromancer go get the pizza all the time.
Because you just know that the rest of the team makes that Circle Necromancer go get the pizza all the time.
Well, that’s basically the whole point of what I keep trying to convey in this thread. Despite what some gamers apparently believe, teleportation ability does not inherently destroy a campaign setting. It’s the limits you place on it that determine its effect on the world and the game. Totally free-form teleportation, yes, that’s hugely disruptive. Everyone has to live behind anti-teleportation shields all the time, or anyone (or anything) can pop up right next to them at any time, and there’s not such thing as any sort of travel concerns. A portal network, on the other hand, is far more controllable. And what I’ve proposed here is roughly in the same category as semiballistics and suborbitals. Astral portals can offer fast transport between two pre-set locations, but like their closest technological equivalents, it will almost certainly be very expensive and only available in certain locations. So either solution will get you across the Pacific or Atlantic pretty quickly (if you’ve got a fat stack of cash to afford the tickets), but from there you’re probably back to more common land or air transport. And that is controllable. If you’re well-funded, you can move about the globe quicker, but there’s definitely still travel involved. Like I said, I think the biggest user would be Wuxing, for cargo shipping (though I can imagine them also trying to “armor up” their astral conduits, to keep nosy astrally projecting magicians out of their “pipelines”). Even if/when someone invents the “upgraded” version of portals using the metaplanes instead, I still can’t see them as anything less than even more expensive gates requiring even more rare and highly-trained magicians to construct. There won’t exactly be one on every city block. Megacorps will have a limited number of them setup to link their main facilities together, and that’s still a controllable scenario.
my copy is maddeningly unspecific about what edition it is. further research using the copyright date indicates that it is the "classic" edition. which more research suggests came after the 2nd edition but before the 3rd edition, so... uhhhh... your guess is as good as mine. 2.5th i suppose?
astral space isn't always clearly distinguished from the nether realms as far as i can tell in earthdawn... for example, the ghost master ritual in my book can fail (if you really suck) and leave a portal to astral space open... which can allow horrors to come through. now, we know the horrors are from the metaplanes. we also know the ghost master is not just hanging around in regular astral space either (presumably they come from the nether realms as well, because it isn't like they're sitting 2 feet away when you start the ritual).
the 8th-level illusionist spell "other place" links two "entrances" requiring 2 casts. it says it works by warping astral space, but again, i'm not remotely convinced they distinguished very clearly (and frankly, trying to manipulate the horror-corrupted astral sounds like a really bad idea to me... how do you even warp astral space without warping the physical space it is connected to anyways?).
as another example, the spiritual guidance spell (a 5th circle nethermancer spell) can summon a spirit that opens a portal to a nether realm that will allow you to gain information you seek... and the spell talks about facing the regular dangers of travel in astral space. which the spell doesn't have anything to do with at all. it explicitly gives you a way to access the nether realms, not the regular astral.
astral space isn't always clearly distinguished from the nether realms as far as i can tell in earthdawn... for example, the ghost master ritual in my book can fail (if you really suck) and leave a portal to astral space open... which can allow horrors to come through. now, we know the horrors are from the metaplanes. we also know the ghost master is not just hanging around in regular astral space either (presumably they come from the nether realms as well, because it isn't like they're sitting 2 feet away when you start the ritual).
the 8th-level illusionist spell "other place" links two "entrances" requiring 2 casts. it says it works by warping astral space, but again, i'm not remotely convinced they distinguished very clearly (and frankly, trying to manipulate the horror-corrupted astral sounds like a really bad idea to me... how do you even warp astral space without warping the physical space it is connected to anyways?).
as another example, the spiritual guidance spell (a 5th circle nethermancer spell) can summon a spirit that opens a portal to a nether realm that will allow you to gain information you seek... and the spell talks about facing the regular dangers of travel in astral space. which the spell doesn't have anything to do with at all. it explicitly gives you a way to access the nether realms, not the regular astral.
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jul 6 2016, 07:37 PM)
As a side note, in fantasy settings where more straightforward teleportation portals are possible, I’ve long (and occasionally loudly) contented that the whole scenario of caravans of goods slowly trekking from city to city across the monster-infested wilderness makes no sense at all. Just set up a portal network, between the big cities at least. Now there’s some security concern there, in that don’t necessarily want a portal from outside your city leading directly inside your city, but that’s easy to address. Establish a fortified keep one day’s ride from your city and put the portal in a courtyard in the middle. Anyone who comes through is surrounded by your soldiers, and even if any invaders do overwhelm them, at least you’ve got a day before they make it to your city. So travel between two such cities is only 2 days, along well-patrolled roads all the way; the monsters hanging out in the wilderness go can scratch their heads and wonder where all the free food went. And if both ends of the portal are both “guaranteed friendly” locations, then you can just directly link them together, without bothering to space the portals out from your cities. To date, I’ve never seen this done in any official fantasy setting, and it makes no sense for this scenario not to exist.
[ Spoiler ]
The hyperspaces and wormholes in various SciFi primarily serve to get around limitations of light speed and interstellar distances. Proxima Centaury is 4.25 ly away, even teleporting or transferring a brain upload at the speed of light would still be awfully slow.
Peri's trick on the other hand does not require any shortcuts through spacetime or even lightspeed travel, just getting stuff to move really fast for human standards. And of course, we a assuming that what the observers perceived was objective reality...maybe Ghostwalker looked at the Azzies funnily because he had just realized they were illusions, Peri certainly would know such entertainment magic...
Peri's trick on the other hand does not require any shortcuts through spacetime or even lightspeed travel, just getting stuff to move really fast for human standards. And of course, we a assuming that what the observers perceived was objective reality...maybe Ghostwalker looked at the Azzies funnily because he had just realized they were illusions, Peri certainly would know such entertainment magic...
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Jul 5 2016, 08:29 AM)
Why not raising funds for a Shadowrun bible (kind of)?
I would crowdfund such a book (imagine a 500-600 pages HUGE book) which every entry illustrated, by thematic.
It would be a dream
I would crowdfund such a book (imagine a 500-600 pages HUGE book) which every entry illustrated, by thematic.
It would be a dream
Why not just give up some of your free time to help add to the Shadowrun wiki? This way it's searchable and linkable to other articles so people have an easier time learning about things. Not only that, but it's also a resource everyone can use.
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