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Kesendeja
I have a player who would like to summon more types of spirit than the five granted by their tradition. In concept I really dont't have an issue with this, and I'm thinking of creating a metamagic to handle it. My question is, how many additional types of spirit should each level of metamagic grant?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kesendeja @ Nov 11 2016, 06:22 AM) *
I have a player who would like to summon more types of spirit than the five granted by their tradition. In concept I really dont't have an issue with this, and I'm thinking of creating a metamagic to handle it. My question is, how many additional types of spirit should each level of metamagic grant?



No more than a single additional spirit per instance of the Metamagic (NOT per Initiate Grade).
Note that it will dillute the Traditions if you allow such a thing, but it may be fun.
Stahlseele
Also:
No chosing at will what you get.
Roll the dice. Magic is too powerfull as it, without getting to mix and match stuff.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 11 2016, 11:11 AM) *
Also:
No chosing at will what you get.
Roll the dice. Magic is too powerfull as it, without getting to mix and match stuff.

Though I would temper that with no getting toxic or insect spirits. This metamagic is meant to help the player, not damn him.
Stahlseele
*shrugs*
might make for some nice character developement.
Zednark
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 12 2016, 01:55 AM) *
Though I would temper that with no getting toxic or insect spirits. This metamagic is meant to help the player, not damn him.

Maybe select one, and roll dice equal to 2x initiate grade, for a threshold of 2. On success, you get what you chose. On a failure, roll on the non-toxic, non-insect table. On a glitch, roll a die and call evens or odds, failure means you roll on the insect/toxic table. A critical glitch means you automatically roll on the insect/toxic table.
freudqo
I'm with Tymeaus on this one. One additional spirit per instance.

I disagree that one should roll for that… I don't see shadowrun magic working that way. The idea of having a test to see if you can upgrade the metamagic seems sound though. But just to see if it works or not.
Kren Cooper
I would also go with one extra spirit type per grade / purchase of the "expanded summoning" metamagic.

I'd also give the player the option of what type of spirit they wanted to shoot for, and let them make a test against a variable target number:
N.B. - I know nothing about 5th ed, so this is phrased in terms of 3rd ed magic, and may not be 100% relevant - but the theory holds...

If they were a shamen, then the lowest target number would be for a nature spirit ( so same tradition), but one not normally associated with their Totem. If a hermetic, then I would look at a hybrid half/half elemental (i.e. they can do fire, earth, air, water - they might get mud (earth/water mix) or steam (water/air mix) - with some interesting new powers or mix of abilities.

The middle target number might be a spirit type from the "other" tradition - Nature spirit for a hermetic, Elemental for a shaman.

A higher target number for an "opposing" type - for an a aspected water conjourer to learn how to summon fire elementals for instance.

And last of all, I might set a really hard test for "special weird off the wall unique spirits", hinted at, but not defined until the players gets one - and use that to fuel a campaign twist.
Ophis
I've long been considering this, but as part of a chain of Metamagics.

The first is Secondary Tradition - The Mage has studied the methods of another tradition and now counts as one for working together and using foci. Pick a second tradition that uses a different Drain stat. This is based conversations with real world occultists about using one style of magic primarily and also using another style - pretty much the basis of Chaos Magic - I'd consider giving Chaos Mage Initiates this for free.

Then you can start buying the spirits of your second Tradition one per metamagic. I would limit this to none Mystic Adepts.

Iduno
Perhaps only require a roll if they're just looking for a new spirit type to add to their repertoire (sure, I'll help. I'm a good spirit, trust me). You might want to roll for the player, maybe adding or subtracting dice based on roleplay. Getting a sketchy spirit who the player thinks might be toxic might be just as fun as having one who really is.

If they have someone of a similar enough tradition show them, and they roleplay well, let them learn it with the karma and initiation or very easy roll. Base "similar enough tradition" on the rules for learning spells from someone who isn't your tradition.
freudqo
QUOTE (Iduno @ Nov 14 2016, 10:55 PM) *
You might want to roll for the player, maybe adding or subtracting dice based on roleplay. Getting a sketchy spirit who the player thinks might be toxic might be just as fun as having one who really is.


Yeah, because he's just, you know, paying karma for that. He should totally get the right to pay karma and get fucked up too on a GM's whim.
Kren Cooper
QUOTE (freudqo @ Nov 14 2016, 11:25 PM) *
Yeah, because he's just, you know, paying karma for that. He should totally get the right to pay karma and get fucked up too on a GM's whim.


If you're going to "get fucked up" by your GM, then it doesn't matter if you pay Karma or not, surely?
GM's are gods, with total power over the system in every way but one - they don't control if the players turn up or not.

A GM making life interesting for a player is one thing, but "fucking them up" is another. GMs are, and always have been, a trusted position. If your GM is abusing that, you have an issue. Conversely - it's good to remind a player that they live in a big world, and the world doesn't always have clearly understood rules (they should be there, and the GM should be internally consistent - but that doesn't mean the player will understand).
freudqo
QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ Nov 16 2016, 05:50 PM) *
GM's are gods, with total power over the system in every way but one - they don't control if the players turn up or not.


No they're not god, and never have been, in the sense that they have total power over the system. The system has rules, that they have to obey too. House rules have to be agreed on by all the players of an RPG, which includes the GM and the PCs. True, I've known GMs who thought so and abused it, but it means they were essentially cheating.

And if you really try to answer your first rethorical question, you'll see easily that indeed it's better to get fucked up without paying karma.
SpellBinder
SR4 technomancers had the option to learn an echo in order to compile an additional type of sprite. As an option in my games I let magicians and mystics do the same as a metamagic option (buy multiple times, gain another spirit type each time), just as has been stated above.

There was a limitation, though. Each additional type of spirit being summoned did not get attached to a particular school of magic. No hermetics having a bound guardian spirit helping with combat magic, etc.
Kren Cooper
QUOTE (freudqo @ Nov 16 2016, 06:33 PM) *
No they're not god, and never have been, in the sense that they have total power over the system. The system has rules, that they have to obey too. House rules have to be agreed on by all the players of an RPG, which includes the GM and the PCs. True, I've known GMs who thought so and abused it, but it means they were essentially cheating.

And if you really try to answer your first rethorical question, you'll see easily that indeed it's better to get fucked up without paying karma.


I think you miss my point - if your GM is playing to "fuck you up", then you're playing with the wrong GM. At this point, for me, it doesn't matter if I paid karma or not - I'm sitting at the wrong table. I don't want to play at a game where the GM is that kind of dick.

And I also disagree about GM's not being gods. In the game world, they can make it rain, or shine, cause famines, earthquakes, beautiful religious ceremonies that create positive background counts, atrocious and awful acts of barbarism that creates mana warps, riots that topple a good leader, demagogues that put a despot into power. If that's not Godlike - then we differ in definitions a great deal. None of those had to do with rules - printed or house, but they have the power to cause all those events to happen in their narrative.
freudqo
QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ Nov 17 2016, 01:12 PM) *
I think you miss my point - if your GM is playing to "fuck you up", then you're playing with the wrong GM. At this point, for me, it doesn't matter if I paid karma or not - I'm sitting at the wrong table. I don't want to play at a game where the GM is that kind of dick.


My point was tackling a very specific situation: one in which the GM could decide based on his sole opinion of your roleplaying about the specific advancement of your character. Like if you say "I spent X karma to get +2 in Strength" and the GM answers "well, you didn't really roleplay your character going to the gym, so you get +1 Strength only and -1 in Body". Such a rule is asking this attitude from the GM, and this is terrible.

QUOTE
And I also disagree about GM's not being gods. In the game world, they can make it rain, or shine, cause famines, earthquakes, beautiful religious ceremonies that create positive background counts, atrocious and awful acts of barbarism that creates mana warps, riots that topple a good leader, demagogues that put a despot into power. If that's not Godlike - then we differ in definitions a great deal. None of those had to do with rules - printed or house, but they have the power to cause all those events to happen in their narrative.


You said: "GM's are gods, with total power over the system". I specifically quoted this in my answer, because there are several way to define a god, and you were using one in which the GM could change the system. If the game rules say "there will be no famine in Shadowrun", then the GM cannot do some of the things you said.

If you want to say that the GM is a god in the way that he decides what happens to the rest of the world, indeed he is. But that's so irrelevant to a conversation where we were talking about Player Character's advancement that it's clearly you who were mistaken about your definition.
Stahlseele
IF the GM even allows this potentially completely OP Metamagic at all, he is well within his rights to make it different.
freudqo
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 17 2016, 06:20 PM) *
IF the GM even allows this potentially completely OP Metamagic at all, he is well within his rights to make it different.


Sure. I'm just saying the precise mechanics of the GM grading your roleplaying before granting you some type of spirits that might be noxious to you is bad, especially that you're using it as a metamagic, so you spent karma to initiate in order to obtain it.
Iduno
Oh, you don't spring something like that on the players without them knowing. Make sure everyone knows the rules and how small of a chance there is of it going bad and agree on how that would be determined before making a choice. Some players will be more risk-averse, some would enjoy gambling with a character's sanity. But that's up to the player.
freudqo
QUOTE (Iduno @ Nov 30 2016, 05:09 PM) *
Oh, you don't spring something like that on the players without them knowing.


I didn't infer the contrary.
Modular Man
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Nov 17 2016, 07:56 AM) *
SR4 technomancers had the option to learn an echo in order to compile an additional type of sprite. As an option in my games I let magicians and mystics do the same as a metamagic option (buy multiple times, gain another spirit type each time), just as has been stated above.

There was a limitation, though. Each additional type of spirit being summoned did not get attached to a particular school of magic. No hermetics having a bound guardian spirit helping with combat magic, etc.

I agree. This way the new houserule is simple, easy and with a simple small catch. I like that.*

It will, of course, still change the game world as it is. This seems to have been taken into account, though.

*However, I have only very limited experience with SR5. SR4, I would use it this way.
SpellBinder
Yeah. With SR5 it would have to be made more complicated as per the way they've redone metamagics, and an additional cost somehow as just paying karma probably wouldn't be near enough of an expense for the benefit. Maybe a mandatory expenditure of reagents just to summon said spirit from outside your paradigm, and double or triple that for binding.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 5 2016, 09:03 AM) *
Yeah. With SR5 it would have to be made more complicated as per the way they've redone metamagics, and an additional cost somehow as just paying karma probably wouldn't be near enough of an expense for the benefit. Maybe a mandatory expenditure of reagents just to summon said spirit from outside your paradigm, and double or triple that for binding.



I disagree with the need for more complications. smile.gif
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 5 2016, 01:29 PM) *
I disagree with the need for more complications. smile.gif
Oh, so do I. If I ever ran SR5 I'd do this metamagic the same way as I said I have it for SR4.

But this is SR5 we're talking about here, and it's made for extraneous complications. wink.gif
Modular Man
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 6 2016, 05:29 AM) *
But this is SR5 we're talking about here, and it's made for extraneous complications. wink.gif

I'm keeping this for future reference biggrin.gif
Mantis
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 5 2016, 07:29 PM) *
Oh, so do I. If I ever ran SR5 I'd do this metamagic the same way as I said I have it for SR4.

But this is SR5 we're talking about here, and it's made for extraneous complications. wink.gif

LOL. That's even better than the official motto of 'Everything has a Price'.
KCKitsune
OK, kinda off topic, but relating to what Ophis said: If I were to play a Chaos Mage and rather than having my spirits act like the Hermetic Elementals, I wanted my Spirits to act like what a Shaman would summon, would anyone see the problem with that?

I understand that a Hermetic would see the world as something that can be broken down "scientifically", but someone like a Chaos mage who would take things from other traditions, would this be "game breaking"? I just like the idea of someone who is a Hermetic Mage, but realizes that the world is a lot bigger than what a Hermetic would like. Also, the role playing opportunity for wheeling and dealing with Spirits would be more satisfying than summoning a "mindless minion".
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Not game breaking at all... Shamanic Spirits and Hermetic Spirits act like the practitioner believes they do, filtered through the Tradition of the Practitioner. If that is how you perceive Chaos magic, then there you go. Of course, you still have the same selection of spirits, regardless. smile.gif

Anyone treating spirits as mindless minions deserves what he gets...
SpellBinder
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 8 2016, 12:20 PM) *
OK, kinda off topic, but relating to what Ophis said: If I were to play a Chaos Mage and rather than having my spirits act like the Hermetic Elementals, I wanted my Spirits to act like what a Shaman would summon, would anyone see the problem with that?

I understand that a Hermetic would see the world as something that can be broken down "scientifically", but someone like a Chaos mage who would take things from other traditions, would this be "game breaking"? I just like the idea of someone who is a Hermetic Mage, but realizes that the world is a lot bigger than what a Hermetic would like. Also, the role playing opportunity for wheeling and dealing with Spirits would be more satisfying than summoning a "mindless minion".
That woulnd't be "game breaking," that would be "role playing." I'd also think it to be way more appropriate if said chaos mage's spirits were bestial in action and appearance if the mage also had an animal totem, reflecting a more natural bend to the blended magical outlook.
freudqo
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 8 2016, 08:20 PM) *
I understand that a Hermetic would see the world as something that can be broken down "scientifically", but someone like a Chaos mage who would take things from other traditions, would this be "game breaking"? I just like the idea of someone who is a Hermetic Mage, but realizes that the world is a lot bigger than what a Hermetic would like. Also, the role playing opportunity for wheeling and dealing with Spirits would be more satisfying than summoning a "mindless minion".


It's a world where magic exists. So Hermetic Mages already have to realize the world is a lot bigger than their turf.

Hermeticism is just the way they tackle magic and manage to use it.
ApesAmongUs
QUOTE (Iduno @ Nov 30 2016, 04:09 PM) *
Oh, you don't spring something like that on the players without them knowing. Make sure everyone knows the rules and how small of a chance there is of it going bad and agree on how that would be determined before making a choice. Some players will be more risk-averse, some would enjoy gambling with a character's sanity. But that's up to the player.

That sounds like the same reasoning that leads to a Deck of Many things being added to a D&D campaign (curiously right before it implodes).
Mantis
QUOTE (ApesAmongUs @ Dec 13 2016, 02:13 PM) *
That sounds like the same reasoning that leads to a Deck of Many things being added to a D&D campaign (curiously right before it implodes).

My favorite was to add some spice to a D&D game. Sure, draw from the deck. What's the worst that could happen?
Kesendeja
QUOTE
Metamagic: ? (possibly Advanced Spirit Summoning).

With advanced spirit summoning the mage has learnt to expand their options when summoning spirits beyond what is normal for a follower of their tradition. For each rank of initiation that a mage posses they can choose to summon an additional basic spirit type (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Beasts, Plants, Man, Guidance, Guardian or Task). However it is necessary to possess the calling ritual for each additional spirit type selected to represent this additional study, that is to summon a fire spirit you must first purchase the calling fire spirit ritual if it is not part of your traditions normal spirit summons. More unusual spirit types e.g. blood, toxic, shadow, ally, great form can not be selected using this metamagic.


Original Thread

Found this on another board, it elegantly solves my problem, and is what I'm going to use in my game.
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