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xizor
So do people still wear glasses in 206x because they need to?
Would it be worth any points as a flaw, rather like the vision penalties for Cyclops?
Or should I just make it something that as flavor
Zazen
Yeah, I'd give it a point or two as a flaw, so long as there's some reason you avoid cybereyes and laser surgery and whatnot.
Arethusa
Given that it's a pretty significant liability for someone who lives life as a runner, I'd make it worth a point as a flaw. If you get cyber eyes or laser surgery to correct it, you also have to pay karma to remove the flaw, naturally.

Has to be somewhat significant loss of vision compared to a normal person. Minor near sightedness really shouldn't register on the edge/flaw scale.

[edit]

And, yes, people in the future will still wear glasses, either because they don't want cybereyes or surgery or because they can't afford it.
A Clockwork Lime
I'd treat it as Oblivious for visual Perception Tests made while not wearing corrective lenses. Since it only affects one sense and can be corrected, it's only a -1 Flaw in my book, and you're going to have to check to make sure your glasses aren't destroyed every time you get hit in a fight or suffer any other kind of significant jarring effect.
Arethusa
I'd double all range penalties for firing a weapon without them, as well.
Herald of Verjigorm
Have you seen current glasses tochnology? Certain frames can withstand a few tons of force and recover, and the lenses are typically a high durability plastic. You should be forced to make quickness (or reaction) checks to see if you keep the glasses on, but only severe cases (or real glass lenses) should result in the need to roll for their destruction.
Zazen
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I'd double all range penalties for firing a weapon without them, as well.

What if they're farsighted? nyahnyah.gif
Arethusa
Still can't see those iron sights at close range. Either way, it's going to hurt.

And, yeah, glasses are not easy to destroy now. 60 years from now, I'd expect them to be many orders of magnitude tougher.
kevyn668
What, no contacts??

I'd call it a 1 point flaw but speaking from experience, I think the greatest thing in the world would be to wake up in the morning and be able to see.
Arethusa
QUOTE (kevyn668)
What, no contacts??

At least glasses can fall off and be put back on. In combat, contacts shatter in your eyes. You don't want that. Not to mention taht can easily slip out of place if you do a lot of moving around. There's a reason no military in the world allows contacts in combat.

QUOTE (kevyn668)
I'd call it a 1 point flaw but speaking from experience, I think the greatest thing in the world would be to wake up in the morning and be able to see.

I hear that. I like the way my glasses look on me, but I would absolutely love to be able to see like everyone else.
Smiley
QUOTE (Arethusa)
At least glasses can fall off and be put back on. In combat, contacts shatter in your eyes. You don't want that. Not to mention taht can easily slip out of place if you do a lot of moving around. There's a reason no military in the world allows contacts in combat.

Odds are, anything with enough force hard enough to shatter your contacts is going to pulp your eyeball no matter what. Besides, most people today wear the flexible soft contacts.
John Campbell
QUOTE (kevyn668)
What, no contacts??

Yeah, everybody gets two free contacts at chargen. That's one for each eye! What more do you need? grinbig.gif
Smiley
{Rimshot}
TinkerGnome
Sure, you could have contacts. However, prepare for a lot of trouble from eye irritants. Even regular smoke could be a problem, but CS or pepper spray... ouch.
kevyn668
QUOTE (John Campbell)
QUOTE (kevyn668)
What, no contacts??

Yeah, everybody gets two free contacts at chargen. That's one for each eye! What more do you need? grinbig.gif

Clever. I was waiting for that. smile.gif

As a contact wearer I can atest that they'll mess with your vision at the most annoying times..shit, its like they know know or something. As for glasses, if a runner carried a pari of sport glasses with the strap thingy he could swap them out when the need arised. Just like packing Low Light or Thermo goggles.
Smiley
Ok, ok, this is a teeeeny bit off subject, but it might outline why the military doesn't do contact lenses.

We all had to do our annual gas chamber and a guy in my shop left his contacts in. Yes, i know it was retarded. CS gas isn't exactly contact-friendly. He seemed to come out of it ok, though... much to everyone's surprise. We were wiping all the snot out of our masks and he walks up, contacts in hand, and asks where he can rinse them off. We pointed out a large bucket of water and he ambled off. Unbeknownst to us, though, that was the bucket the last group had rinsed out their masks in. CS gas isn't really gas, it's a bunch of teeny tiny crystals that float around and irritate your lungs. Apparently, it works in water, too. After wetting the lenses nicely, he popped them back in, took two steps, and started howling like he'd just been castrated. For the rest of the day his eyes looked like glowing red traffic lights. He didn't seem to think it was as funny as the rest of us for some reason...
Apathy
QUOTE
Yeah, everybody gets two free contacts at chargen. That's one for each eye! What more do you need?

Does a seeing-eye dog count as a contact? How about a seeing-eye dwarf? (They're about the right height for putting on one of those harness thingys.)
Zazen
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Still can't see those iron sights at close range. Either way, it's going to hurt.

Smartlink targeting reticle nyahnyah.gif
Xirces
QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 16 2004, 10:15 PM)
Still can't see those iron sights at close range.  Either way, it's going to hurt.

Smartlink targeting reticle nyahnyah.gif

That's a damn good idea - SmartContacts™ so much more concealable than smartgoggles and available in any colour you choose.
Omega Skip
Glasses are most commonly used to correct near- or far-sightedness. There are other reasons why some people wear them, but I imagine they're rather rare. The thing is, if you look at how corrective eye surgery has progressed over the last few years, it would seem that by 2060, this kind of procedure would be both affordable and safe. No need for cybereyes to adjust your vision. I hear that even today, normal sighted people can get their eyes adjusted so they have even better vision, but that may be just rumours.

Still, you could get the "bad eye surgery" flaw: The character wanted to get his sight adjusted, and wound up with permanently damaged eyes. Of course, since Doctor Bob's Cool Eyes Booth has since closed down, the poor character can't even get a refund. Man, I really hate Doctor Bob!
Arethusa
Not much of a flaw when it's easily correctible by vat grown eyes. And, hell, if I'm a runner, that's where my first paycheck's going.
Omega Skip
True, it's easily rectified; might be a flaw for a very, very, very low-end, streetlevel campaign - you know, the kind where you earn maybe 50 ¥ per "run".

Heh, now there's a flaw idea:
Complicated patient (-1, -2, -3)
No matter where you go, you always seem to end up with the most klutzy streetdoc there is. Either that, or your body just wasn't meant for surgery. This flaw comes in 3 levels; each level is added to any biotech or other surgery-related TNs for a character trying to apply such a skill on the character who has this flaw.

That would go nicely with the Bad Eye Surgery flaw...
Zazen
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Not much of a flaw when it's easily correctible by vat grown eyes. And, hell, if I'm a runner, that's where my first paycheck's going.

You just say that avoiding replacements is part of the flaw. It's not a big stretch for someone who had botched eye surgery to refuse to ever do it again.
Xirces
QUOTE (Omega Skip)
Heh, now there's a flaw idea:
Complicated patient (-1, -2, -3)
No matter where you go, you always seem to end up with the most klutzy streetdoc there is. Either that, or your body just wasn't meant for surgery. This flaw comes in 3 levels; each level is added to any biotech or other surgery-related TNs for a character trying to apply such a skill on the character who has this flaw.

That would go nicely with the Bad Eye Surgery flaw...

Whilst I like the idea, why do I get visions of hoards of cybered-up Sammies taking the reverse as an edge? smile.gif
Omega Skip
Just don't allow the Ideal Specimen edge. Or make it like this:

Ideal Specimen I, II, or III (1, 2, 3)
You, sir, are a perfect textbook example of human anatomy. In fact, some books even use you as their reference. Doctors would kill to have a patient as uncomplicated as you.
This edge comes in three levels; subtract the level from any TN for biotech or other surgery tests for characters who use such a skill on the person with this edge. This edge is not compatible with any physical flaws except "borrowed time".
Moonstone Spider
I'd make the edge cost double the flaw, that's how they seem to go in the SRComp.
Modesitt
I can attest to the durability of glasses. Most 'glasses' are really plastic or composites of some kind, true glass is a special order. I currently wear polycarbonate lenses and have seriously put them to the test. I've stepped on them, sat on them, crushed them with luggage, and had cats chew on them. But the big one for me was when I was hit by a minivan and impacted on the curb, landing on my face.

As there were no bruises on my face or so much as a broken nose, I'm left with no choice but to assume I landed totally on my glasses. There's a single chip in the corner of my left lens where I impacted. Instead of the glasses breaking, the frame withstood the impact and cut into me, leaving a 3 cm or so y-shaped cut along my eyebrow.

Also note that not all vision is totally correctable. I'm correctable to 20/20 in both eyes, but it's possible in some cases to have your vision only be correctable to, say, 20/400 or similar things. Even with laser eye surgery, especially with the more extreme cases, it's possible to only get partially corrected. But by 2060, any sort of bad vision should really be a thing of the past except for the poorest of the poor.

I can also forsee many people wearing glasses both to enhance their vision and to provide various little effects. My current glasses have an anti-glare coating on them, so if you looked into my eyes you don't see the light reflecting off of them. Personally, I think almost all cybereye implants should be possible to get in a pair of sunglasses with a few exceptions.
Zazen
QUOTE
I can attest to the durability of glasses.


Just for some contrast, I can attest to their fragility. I'm pretty damn careful with my glasses. I never drop them or sit on them or abuse them in any way. However, I fell asleep in them one bloody time and they warped all to hell. I spent an hour trying to bend them back into shape just so I could wear them properly, but they still looked mangled.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Modesitt)
Also note that not all vision is totally correctable. I'm correctable to 20/20 in both eyes, but it's possible in some cases to have your vision only be correctable to, say, 20/400 or similar things. Even with laser eye surgery, especially with the more extreme cases, it's possible to only get partially corrected. But by 2060, any sort of bad vision should really be a thing of the past except for the poorest of the poor.

Not necessarily. I have partial albinism IRL, and because of that albinism I have a host of different eye problems, stemming as I recall from the lack of melanin in my eyes and brain while they were developing. My vision is only correctable to about 20/80 with glasses, and from what I'm hearing even with laser surgery I wouldn't get much better. The problem is neurological, which I'm guessing is not correctable with cyber either.
Nikoli
Would gene therepy do the trick though?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I have partial albinism IRL, and because of that albinism I have a host of different eye problems, stemming as I recall from the lack of melanin in my eyes and brain while they were developing.

Did you at least get +1 Willpower?

Regarding gene therapy, certainly before birth. Afterwards it might not be able to do anything.

~J
Sahandrian
QUOTE (Omega Skip)
I hear that even today, normal sighted people can get their eyes adjusted so they have even better vision, but that may be just rumours.

I've noticed something like that. When I got stronger glasses about a year ago, I could see details in so many things. Like reading the logos on people's shirts across the street, or seeing individual leaves on the trees across my back yard (big yard, used to be part of a farm).

After about a week my vision had adjusted to the lenses and I was back to normal.
Modesitt
QUOTE
Just for some contrast, I can attest to their fragility. I'm pretty damn careful with my glasses. I never drop them or sit on them or abuse them in any way. However, I fell asleep in them one bloody time and they warped all to hell. I spent an hour trying to bend them back into shape just so I could wear them properly, but they still looked mangled.


Oh, they certainly get bent if you fall asleep with them on. Fortunately for me, I can just take them to my optometrist(sp), they apparently put the glasses on some sort of machine that heats them up and they bend them back into place. But break in some fashion that can't be fixed easily? I'm yet to have it happen.
Thistledown
Biggest problem I have with my glasses is the nosepads. I do sword fighting a lot (Amtgard), and while head shots are off limits, they do happen sometimes. My glasses tend to take the brunt of them, and I've had the nose pads snap off because of it a few times. In large part, it's probably due to the type of frames I have (Half rim-less), and the weak little wires the nosepads are on.

I can attest to the strength of the frames and lenses themselves though. I've never had any trouble with the frames, and the only lens trouble is chips out of it, never shattering.

I did a lot of thinking about eye mods and such a year or so ago, and I came up with a system that works fairly well in my games. Dr. Nicholas Hayden’s Optometry shop, in Seatle. (He also has a branch run by his brother Ogdus in Denver.)

My friend has written a program to deal with it, I'll upload it soon. But here's the write-up anyways if you can figure out the system I used.
Dissonance
Ionno. Sure, Lenscrafters does those fun tests in the commercials where they hit the lens with that little hammer thing, to show how durable it is.

Myself, having required high-powered glasses ever since 1st grade.. I can attest to the fact that sure, the lenses aren't likely to break.

It's the frame that breaks. And trying to pop a loose lens back into a broken frame in the comfort of your own home while you can't see a few inches past your face, let alone in the midst of a gunfight, is near impossible.

Couple that with loose screws, impossible-to-find nose pieces, twisted and bent frames, chipped lenses, and the sheer amount of GRIME collected on a lens on a daily basis (Air pollution in 2064? y helo thar soy refinery!), not to mention coronas caused by light sources and a reduced ability to read print from a distance and partially screwing up your depth perception?

Yeah, I think it'd be a flaw.

Of course, I'm a bit of an extreme case. My eyes are practically useless. YMMV. cool.gif

PS: Anybody ever have the frame around a lens split before? It's absolutely impossible to repair. That was a result of me accidentally dropping my glasses into the sink.
Arethusa
I'll admit I wasn't always incredibly rough with my frames as a kid, but I wasn't incredibly gentle, either, and they always held up well enough. Yes, frames take far more damage than lenses, but the right frames can be solid enough. More to the point, I've considered getting a pair of ballistic goggles and just putting some prescription lenses in those. They're form fitting, nearly indestructible, and not likely to fall off. And I'm sure you can imagine 60 years of tech progression would only make those better. It's flaw material, sure, but it's managable.
Xirces
As someone with perfect sight it constantly amazes me the trouble that glasses and contacts cause...

Looking at it from a 'runner's perspective the closest analogies I can think of are sports players - there are a few who wear goggles - Edgar Davids springs to mind (although I still remember Eric Dickerson looking pretty ridiculous), but the majority seem to wear contacts leading to those amusing "I lost one in the mud, please stop the game and help me find it" incidents.

It's got to be just down to personal preference, hasn't it?
Person 404
The difference being, presumably, that no one is going to stop the gunfight to help you look for your contact.
Xirces
QUOTE (Person 404)
The difference being, presumably, that no one is going to stop the gunfight to help you look for your contact.

LOL biggrin.gif

I suppose that's where all those "Sense of Honour" type flaws take effect.
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