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FXcalibur
The statistical process of getting a personalized grip is more or less covered in the CC, but from a roleplaying aspect, what happens?

Would the gunsmith make a mold of your hand, or ask you to grasp some kind of clay to get a shape? Would he carve out the grip and replace the old one, or would he tack on something to the grip itself?

If my players want a personalized grip, I'd prefer to have some storytelling involved, instead of just 'ok, roll your pistols B/R against so-and-so. You succeed at/fail the process."
Smiley
So... you want them to roleplay getting a mold of their hand done?
FXcalibur
I'm unfamiliar with the process is all. To answer your question, well, yes. smile.gif I'd prefer it not to be abstracted to dice rolls alone, especially since (some) players take pride in their guns.

If it's a gunsmith you don't trust, and he asks if he can make a mold of your hand, might you be suspicious? Of course, this is an extreme example, but you never know what might happen in a game.
Arethusa
Honestly, I wouldn't get too deep in real life with this one. In real life, it can be as simple as buying a fitted polymer sleeve for a gun's pistol grip and positioning it for your shooting style or it can be as complicated as taking precise measurements of your hand as well as a cast mold and having the gunsmith work from there. In SR, the benefits don't even make a hell of a lot of sense.

I admire your desire to roleplay outside of simple dice rolls, but this isn't a good place in terms of mechanics to do it. Save that sort of thing for playing a game of cards, etc.
Connor
So what kind of effects do happen in real life with a 'personalized grip' or what have you? Is it just a comfort issue or are there other benefits to your shooting? Is it just too subjective to even comment on?
JaronK
I'm no gun expert, but here's my guess. I'd say the grip would be made of some gel-type substance, easily formable, that would absorb some of the shock from recoil, and would be fitted to go very nicely in your hand. The process would probably involve removing the outer portion of the stock grip and then using some form of glue or other method to attack a molded gel grip. It's probably a pretty simple process.

JaronK
Siege
As opposed to the "factory issue" grip, one is personalized to fit your hand and shooting grip.

I don't know if I buy the SR mechanic, but if you really wanna role-play the thing, require a specific instrument that is expensive and only a few gunsmiths in town have -- hence a waiting period. Barring creative character interaction.

Maybe the gun itself has to be re-worked to enable the "custom grips" to be fully functional which requires a higher level of expertise and money.

Otherwise -- just let them roll, especially if it's a simple process and they have the tools to do it.

-Siege
Arethusa
Come on, no need to make this unnecessarily complicated. The custom grip's a simple concept and shouldn't require inordinate amounts of cash and time. That's just going to feel contrived.

As for what they do in real life, I'll admit that this is not really something I have any real practical experience with. Presumably, they're more comfortable, but the genefits are also likely to not mean much outside of potential comfort until you start shooting in precision competitions like the IPSC.
Crusher Bob
For pistols:

Most 'custom grips' are a pretty simple affair. You order them out of a catalog, you take the old grips off of the gun and put the new grips on...

The new grips are generally changed around by things like hand size, shooting style, and better (more expensive) grip material. They might also wear out a bit faster than stock grips.

In general though, there not much you can do to customize the grip of a pistol, since the magazine feeds through it.

For rifles,

You can get the whole stock replaced with cheekrests and wahtnot. Most competition/sniper rilfes come out of the box with adjustable cheekrests, buttplates, etc that will let you adjust the rifle to yourself pretty quickly.
Xirces
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Most competition/sniper rilfes come out of the box with adjustable cheekrests, buttplates etc that will let you adjust the rifle to yourself pretty quickly.

I know what that meant, but I sniggered the first time I read it wobble.gif
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Would the gunsmith make a mold of your hand, or ask you to grasp some kind of clay to get a shape? Would he carve out the grip and replace the old one, or would he tack on something to the grip itself?

I can give you two examples of it happening in my games. The first is if the characters went to the poor gunsmith in Gnome Town who makes most of his equipment from scratch. I may do a second at the high tech Weapons' World store, if you like the first.

[IC]
"Well, well, well. Look who's back so soon... I know nothing's wrong with the gun, is there? You're happy with it, yes?" The little hobbit waddles over to you and takes the SMG. Examining it like a precious stone, his cybereye audibly zooming in and out, the smith nods and then says, "I see you've used it twice already, and not just at the range... Well, what is it then?"

"I'd like to get a custom grip to help with the recoil. My wrist gets sore after just a few bursts."

"That's what you get for using that suppressor instead of a vent, but the grip is no problem... Let's see here..." Pulling a length of string from his beard, the little man takes your hand in his. Despite the thick fingers, he manages to deftly tie the string around each finger. "There we go," he says, removing the string without undoing the knots. "I think we have enough gel crap... Now, I'll be right back," and he hobbles off into the back. You hear loud clanking and banging followed by an even louder, "Mother of Chri- Ahh... Ares... Colt... Styre... Ah ha! Heckler..." More loud shuffling and the clatter of spilt magazines can be heard. Then a rusty drawer squeals as it slides open. "No... No... Yes, this will do."

Returning with a grin, the dwarf holds what looks like a SMG grip. Welded to it are what appears to be keys of an antique typing machine and a miniature ferris wheel. Slapping the thing into you hand he instructs you to hold it like the gun. "Fuh, put you thumb like this. Ack, who taught you to hold a gun, girl? It's no wonder your danty little wrist hurts. Good, alright. Ready? Here we go."

He flicks a little switch on the ferris wheel and it starts to spin, slow at first and then faster and faster until the handle is shaking your hand like a pack of Awakened jumping beans. "Hold it steady, girl. Come on, is that all you got?" the little fucker says, his grin now ear to ear. Suddenly the keys click inwards and something very much like a bee stings your palm.

A yelp escapes your lips (failed Willpower roll). The ferris wheel winds down and the smith takes the grip from you. A slip of paper spools from the bottom, and the dwarf reads aloud the little markings on it, "Seven, three, four, two, seven." He looks you up and down before saying, "Interesting, you're stronger than you look." Taking the grip thing to the back he adds, "Bring the gun back in a week or so. The gel takes some time to harden after I build the mold. We may need to shave some off, but that's not a problem."

"OK, then what do I owe you?"

"Humm, I'll tell you what. I'm almost out of gel, but I know where you can get a ton of it real easy. If you pick me up a barrel of the gel... looks like this one," he says kicking an old metal barrel about the size of a Mountain Dew six liter, "I'll give you the grip and mabe a magazine of that explosive ammo your always asking for. What'd ya say?"
sidartha
Knowing what I know of pistols,(quite a bit) I'll say that two molds need to be taken. One with the hand at rest and one formed around the grip. However this is where the SR mechanic differs from real life. Such a custom grip will improve your shooting as the gun points more naturally for you, it really won't do much for the recoil.
What will reduce the felt recoil is a grip that has room to deform and then reform when it trys to move your hand. Either Ruger or Smith&Wesson had a revolver some years back whose grip was a rubber core surrounded by several rubber disks who filled out the proper shape of the grip thus while rather strange to hold was a dream to shoot(revolvers tend to kick harder than automatics)
I'll try to find the gun and post a link later.
Otherwise, do as Kanada Ten suggests
Arethusa
In terms of game mechnics, makes more sense for custom grips to allow one additional aiming action than any amount of recoil compensation.
GreatChicken
Personalized grips are a must when you're affected by surge flaws or perhaps non-human cyberarm structures. If you're really, really that far 'mutated', chances are, your hand structure WILL be different (most guns are made for humanoid hands), and dwarf and troll mods might not be enough to make up for it (Picking up weapons with claws feels completely different from doing it with hands).
FXcalibur
Great piece of writing, Kanada Ten smile.gif

I can see that it's probably a bit too much into detail for a group game, but for writing fiction, or a 1-on-1 with a patient player, marvelous. I'd love to see your take on the high tech store. Pretty please with a rangefinder on top? biggrin.gif

A free aim action does make sense (and the metahuman/cyber mod too) but there's the issue of game balance again. I think it would have to make custom grips the complex and expensive process someone mentioned above to balance it out. Maybe make it easier to quick-draw?
Arethusa
There's no reason it would make it easier to quickdraw. In any case, I never said free aim action; I said you get to benefit from one additional action of aiming. Therefore, with a skill of 2, you could normall aim for one simple action to get -1. With a custom grip, you are allowed to take aim up to a bonus of -2. With a skill of 4, you would normally be allowed to take aim up to -2; toss in a custom grip and you're allowed to take aim up to -3.
FXcalibur
Misunderstood. Again. My bad.

The reason why I thought of quick drawing was that you ultimately feel more flexible with the gun's grip, and it's it made of gel, easier to withstand pressure. The few times I've gripped a gun I found myself constantly re-gripping (is that even a word?) because the grip felt odd or wrong somehow, which delayed shooting. It's probably a personal quirk more than anything else, I suppose.
Arethusa
Honestly, the more cumbersome shape of a customized grip may make it easier to hold and fire, but it's going to make it more difficult to holster and draw quickly. If anything, I see it as being an impediment to quickdrawing. That said, though, this is territory I'm not very qualified to talk about due to complete lack of practical experience, so I could be very off.
Smiley
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Honestly, the more cumbersome shape of a customized grip may make it easier to hold and fire, but it's going to make it more difficult to holster and draw quickly. If anything, I see it as being an impediment to quickdrawing. That said, though, this is territory I'm not very qualified to talk about due to complete lack of practical experience, so I could be very off.

I would like to applaud you for admitting that you're not qualified to talk about this. MOST of the firearms arguments i see are being held by people who've not only never fired one, but have only really ever seen them while playing HALO. So... kudos. Everyone, be more like Arethusa. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk about it.
FXcalibur
In Lieu of someone with real experience, it's fun to theorize on the subject at hand, even if it's just for the sake of casual discussion and to see how accurate your guess was. smile.gif

It's not like I'm going to ignore someone with real life experience. All the better, in fact. And then there are helpful people here who provide insight on how it can be used in an in-game fashion, which was what I was going for the when I first started the topic.

Right now it's just that, after-thoughts, discussion and theory.
Xirces
I'll second that - the best thing to do is talk about it, admit from the off that you don't know squat. Be corrected by someone who does know, point out flaws in their explanation (which makes you seem like an ass), criticise them, but ultimately be swayed by their superior knowledge and leave having learnt something. Chances are by having to patiently explain something obvious to an anonymous prat on the Internet that the other person will learn something as well. biggrin.gif

Oh, and nice story Kanada. Next part please? smile.gif
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Honestly, I wouldn't get too deep in real life with this one. In real life, it can be as simple as buying a fitted polymer sleeve for a gun's pistol grip and positioning it for your shooting style or it can be as complicated as taking precise measurements of your hand as well as a cast mold and having the gunsmith work from there. In SR, the benefits don't even make a hell of a lot of sense.

I admire your desire to roleplay outside of simple dice rolls, but this isn't a good place in terms of mechanics to do it. Save that sort of thing for playing a game of cards, etc.

I'm going to disagree with this. With the questions he's raising it's perfect for role playing-"Sure mr Street Samurai, just hold this mold for 15 seconds."
"Hey those are my finger prints pressed into the mold!"
"Don't worry about it, those get smoothed away on the final casting."

I'm not sure how it would be doine in RL, I'm left handed with small hands so I pretty much get stuck with generic grips but in game terms, go for it.
Nikoli
Well, Mr. Sam could always wear a pair of surgical gloves while holding the mold.

Hell a customized grips could be little more than a wad of cleverly placed rubber bands around the grip.
Personally I like the concept of -1 TN over all for you, +1 for anyone else just for using the grip
Siege
Bursts, not burts. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
I'd love to see your take on the high tech store. Pretty please with a rangefinder on top?


[IC]
Logging on to the Weapons' World host only takes a second as the chrome and steel planet materializes before you. A flow of molten metal streams upwards from the planet to form a suit and tie wearing humanoid. Solidified, the icon smiles and cheerfully says, "Hello and welcome to Weapons' World! The place where all your dreams become cold steel reality! ...You're account is currently :active: and you have :zero: outstanding balances. Welcome back :Joe Doe:; what can we do for you?"

You breathe a sigh of relief as the ID is verified and say, "I'm looking for a grip on the pistol I just bought. My friend told me I could get better performance, but I want to see the stats."

Cocking its shiny head, the icon listens intently. After a moment's pause, it says, "Customized hand grips for the :Ares Predator: come in multiple levels of functionality. By far, the interlaced Ares Five Point Responder Grip with NEW Reactive Gel and time tested Krynac Vamac Ethylene Acrylic core provides the most superior comfort control. By easing muscle fatigue, the Five Point Responder improves target acquisitions after sustained semiautomatic, burst, or even fully automatic fire. Field-testing indicates an 8.15% increase in successful contact. Furthermore, the reduction in wear and tear on your ligaments and wrist prevents carpel-tunnel syndrome and can ease the pains of arthritis.” A dazzling display of multicolor grips dance behind the icon showing the various schemes of the Responder. When you point at one, the price appears hovering next to it. Several of the more expensive models claim resistance to finger printing. At your request, the list of reviews by previous buyers bubble out of those models, and a thousand voices argue and exalt the various features.

“This one,” you say finally, pointing at the simple black model. A beautiful Predator fades into the grip and begins to rotate before you. The metallic icon pulls a rubber hand from inside its suit and holds it out to you. Reaching for it activates the sim feed, and suddenly you can feel the hand. It reaches out for the gun and grips it tightly. Your hand fits perfectly. The gun points off into the blackness beyond the chrome planet where a gun range slowly materializes. You instinctively fire several shots at the targets as they spring up. If it works like the feed, you’re sold on the performance. “I’ll take it.”

The icon glistens, obviously happy, and cocks its head again. “Confirmed monetary resources... Confirmed stock... Our records indicate you have not previously been measured for pistol grips. The earliest appointment is :one week: from today at :1011 North Wells Street: at :11 o’clock in the AM:. Would you like to confirm this appointment, or schedule a more convenient time?” The icon floats patiently now holding a thick chrome appointment book.

“Fine, fine,” you say. And a week passes...

Dressing nice for your appearance downtown, you arrive nearly on time. The automatic tax delivers you to the mall, and deposits you at the East entrance, by far the closest to Weapons’ World. Climbing a few flights of stairs for the exercise, you take an elevator the other sixty flights. The store occupies most of the floor with a small space for children and another for a Buddhist shrine.

The outer glass doors open as you wave the credstick over the eye. The statuesque guards stand silent in foyer, but you can feel their sensors searching your body. It seems like every camera in the world must be on you right now, but you walk towards the service girl.

“Ah, Mister Joe Doe? We’ve been expecting you!” she says positively making you sick with her wave of pleasantries. “Weapons’ World associate Kyle Thurostrome will be right with you,” she beams and then leans towards you to add, “He’s the best, don’t worry,” as if it were some secret. You shake off the sent of perfume that drenched your body as she returns to watching a hidden monitor.

“Mister Doe?” inquires a male voice. Striding to you, a tall suit reaches out to shake your hand. “I’m Mister Thurostrome, but you can call me Kyle. Wonderful to have you in our store again, sir. Right this way, won’t you?” Is the British accent your imagination? The two of you stroll down an isle, each side displaying the latest weapons from Ares, Steyr, Heckler and Kotch. Opening the door to a spacious white office, the man asks, “May I have the pistol, Mister Doe? Ah, yes, thank you.” He takes the gun to a machine in the corner. A frightening array of screwdrivers and probes descend on the pistol dismantling it faster than you thought possible. The look of horror on your face must be apparent, because Kyle says, “Don’t worry, sir. The Gizmo can put it back together just as fast. Plus, you’ve got the Weapons’ World Lifetime Guarantee.” You suppose the smile is meant to be reassuring.

“Now, if you would just grab hold of the cylinder on this stand here. There we are.” The cylinder rests inside a grid of IR laser beams, and Kyle adjusts the stand’s height as you take hold of it. Once positioned in the most comfortable spot, he activates a display screen. The screen begins to build a three-dimensional model of your hand: the muscles, the bone, and down to the filaments of hair and scar tissue. The cylinder gently rocks as numbers cascade across the screen. “Just act natural, Mister Doe. The machine measures innate responses to pressure and momentum. It will build the perfect combination of hardness and spring to counter the Predator’s brutal kick. Once in the database, we can build a custom grip for any gun you purchase; even if you order online. While I have you here, did you wish to have the left done as well?”

You shake your head, more out of impatience than anything. “Um, how long? I mean how long do you keep the information of file?” You ask, suddenly nervous about the amount of data being displayed. Kyle glances at you slyly, but quickly returns to the screen.

“Indefinitely. Sometimes records get lost, or course, but the norm is until customer death...” Kyle makes a point of not looking at you before adding, “Weapons’ World also allows you to donate to any world charity - except the World Wildlife Foundation. I’ve been know to handle such transactions personally, to insure full customer satisfaction.” The display flashes, and Kyle directs your attention to a small glass window in the office wall. Looking into some kind of chamber, the window shows a robotic arm with some form of hose and nozzle attached to the end. White plastic spews from the nozzle has the robotic arm quickly builds a gun grip. “That’s the wax; it uses the 3-D model to create a CAD file. Now watch this...” Kyle narrates as the robotic arm retreats and a whirlwind of sand fills the chamber.

“It’s making a sand-cast of the outer shape. Over here,” he says pointing to a tinted window, “the machine is building the inner core.” Inside that window, a rubber cylinder is spinning rapidly as a diamond tool shaves down the sides. “Now that the sand-cast is finished, the machine melts the wax before it pours in the gel. It uses a laser to keep the inside soft, and the sand is then permeated with liquid nitrogen to instantly freeze the outside to the correct shape.”

Water, or something like water, begins washing the sand away, leaving a hollow black grip. “The inner core is already being put on the gun,” Kyle says, pointing at the so-called Gizmo. Indeed, the mechanical arms seem almost to finesse the core onto the partially assembled weapon. After one last washing, the outer grip finishes with a ding. Kyle opens the window and takes out the grip. By the time he reaches the Gizmo, a space of a meter or two, the Predator is waiting upside down. He slides the outer grip on with surprising ease, presses a button on the machine, and smiles at you as a dryer blasts hot air onto the grip.

Taking the finished gun from the contraption, Kyle hands it to you. It feels strange at first, and Kyle seems to read your mind by saying, “You’ll get used to it after the first few days. Then, you’ll never want another gun without the grip.”

“You mentioned interest in the charity program... How much shall I put you down for?” he asks, smiling at you with bright white teeth.
TinkerGnome
Now you're just showing off wink.gif
Phaeton
You say that like it's a bad thing. biggrin.gif
FXcalibur
indifferent.gif

...wow. Just, wow.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (FXcalibur)
indifferent.gif

I forgot the rangefinder! Damn it.

And it started out so simple: a little black box, just put your hand inside... what happened?

talker.gif

QUOTE (Siege)
Bursts, not burts.

Just now figured out what you meant, spin.gif Hooray for forever edit!
FXcalibur
QUOTE
I forgot the rangefinder! Damn it.


No, you see, substitute that word for, you know, cherry, and...because it's a gun context...and...uh...

That joke fell flat on its' face, didn't it?

Seriously, that's pretty cool work right work. I have a few ideas of my own now. Thanks for sharing/showing off biggrin.gif
Xirces
That's damn cool smile.gif Thanks Kanada.
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